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Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS - Settle It In Smash!

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Mario and Pokémon are Nintendo's biggest most popular franchises, them having the most playable characters isn't weird. Mario has 9 playable characters already. Yoshi, Wario and DK may have their "own franchises", but they are still Mario spinoffs.

 

I'm not sure why 'franchises' is in quotes here. Does it imply that, because WarioWare and DKC have roots in the Mario franchise, that it's impossible for them to make a distinct product worthy of their own respect? That strikes me as saying that Kingdom Hearts is only a Micky Mouse game because Donald and Goofy are important characters, or that the Punisher is a spin-off of Spider-Man because his first appearance was in that book. Heck, in WarioWare's case, it's got completely different gameplay, characters, style, and tone from the Mario games, to the point where Kirby has more in common with the mainline Mario stuff. To say that none of this deserves its own recognition or respect for the sake of one character who appeared in one mainline Mario game is actually a bit insulting.

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Honestly, the only character that's not grouped with the Mario series that I think SHOULD be is Yoshi. He's got a far bigger presence in the main Mario series than Wario and DK do and Mario even makes an appearance in the majority of his games. 

 

You could make the argument for Wario too, since he's basically a walking parody of Mario, but I think Donkey Kong's done enough to set himself apart. They could easily avoid the feeling of Mario oversaturation by focusing on what makes Donkey Kong unique. Vast, detailed locations and music that contrast with Mario's simple artstyle.

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I just don't see Pokémon getting 6 characters unless Mario gets yet another character (I'm not counting DK, Yoshi or Wario, as they have their own specific logos and stuff). Pokémon may be more successful (I don't really know, I'm going off what someone else just said here), but Mario is the mascot. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Mewtwo to come back, he was one of my favorite characters. I just don't have much hope for him.

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You guys are reading way too much into my argument, I'm not saying that Yoshi or Wario's games aren't worthy of their own fame, I prefer them to Mario games for the most part.

 

I'm saying they're Mario characters, because they are. I'm saying the "character limit" doesn't exist, Pikachu gets his own games, does that mean Pikachu should be counted separately from other Pokémon? He doesn't because he's more iconic as a Pokémon? Yoshi and Wario are more iconic as Mario characters than they are for their own franchises, Pikachu's games sell better than Yoshi or Wario's games do.

 

If Yoshi and Wario didn't have their own games, would all of you suddenly really hate that they were in Smash because if meant something as trivial as the little Mushroom logo indicating Mario characters was used a few too many times? If a popular game franchise that isn't Mario getting more than 5 reps a crime? Fair enough Mario gets special treatment because it's Mario, but I don't think you people realise how vital Pokémon is to Nintendo's success nowadays, Pokémon isn't just "another series", Pokémon is one of the few games that regularly pulls the flow of the industry in its favour just by existing.

 

And no, I wouldn't consider Diddy or WarioWare characters to be "Mario characters", but there's no denying that Yoshi and Wario are popular Mario characters in their own right, not just because of their games. If they never got their own games, ya'll still wouldn't be complaining that they "broke" the character limit.

 

People keep saying the "character limit" exists when it was only apparent in Brawl because of time constraints, and people also despite this keep saying it's ok for Mario to overshoot it entirely just because characters people would expect in anyway have had their own games. If Wario and Yoshi had that little Mushroom logo in Smash Bros. people still wouldn't be complaining about how many reps Mario has, and they'd still think 6 was too much for Pokémon. You know. even if Pokémon is generally more successful nowadays.

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I'm saying they're Mario characters, because they are

 

If they never got their own games, ya'll still wouldn't be complaining that they "broke" the character limit.

 

Well yes, this is the point of contention. They do have their own games. More than that, they have their own separate series, with their own separate characters, with their own separate artstyles, with their own separate tones, with their own separate gameplay. Mewtwo does not. Blaziken does not. Pichu does not. Even Pikachu does not.

 

This isn't just some crazy double-standard towards Pokémon, these Mario spin-off character have justified their own existence and respect apart from Mario. They're more than just Mario characters, more than just another Daisy or Birdo, for precisely this reason. Until the day comes that Mewtwo or whoever can justify themselves apart from the main Pokémon franchise, they're just another Pokémon, no matter how popular, and deserve a slot no more than Rosalina.

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Well yes, this is the point of contention. They do have their own games. More than that, they have their own separate series, with their own separate characters, with their own separate artstyles, with their own separate tones, with their own separate gameplay. Mewtwo does not. Blaziken does not. Pichu does not. Even Pikachu does not.

 

This isn't just some crazy double-standard towards Pokémon, these Mario spin-off character have justified their own existence and respect apart from Mario. They're more than just Mario characters, more than just another Daisy or Birdo, for precisely this reason.

Did you even read my post? I said that even if Yoshi and Wario didn't have their own franchises people would still welcome them into Smash with open arms. Which is a fact and everyone knows it. Yoshi's presence as a Mario character is far greater than even in his own games.

 

It is absolutely a double standard. Pikachu does have his own games with their own tone and gameplay. So ok, how about this, we change one teeny tiny thing, make Pikachu's icon a Pikachu head, and suddenly the imaginary, fandom-created "character limit" on Pokémon ~magically disappears~ and gets an extra space! Just because they changed a fricking icon. Because that's the only difference between Yoshi and Pikachu. They both have their own game series', and yet Yoshi is the one with his own icon, and because of that teeny tiny aesthetical difference Mario is entitled to more reps.

 

SEEMS LEGIT.

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Did you even read my post? I said that even if Yoshi and Wario didn't have their own franchises people would welcome them into Smash with open arms

 

No? If Wario didn't have WarioWare or Land I wouldn't consider him fit for the series, mostly because, aside from being in Mario Tennis or whatever, he wouldn't have done anything worth noting since his debut, and even that was hardly anything. It would be like the handful of people trying to get Daisy into Smash. Aside from a few cheers from the sidelines, most would complain that another slot went wasted.

 

That, and I'm not sure that you realize that Wario and DK got those icons because they have separate series? The icons didn't just magically create new franchises? This is all getting a bit absurd, comrade.

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People don't complain as much about characters like Yoshi, Wario or DK "breaking" the character Limit because, while they started out as Mario characters and still pretty much are, their Smash personas represent their spin off series and People associate them more with that series.

 

When I see Smash Wario, I don't see Mario side character nr. 6, I see the main character of the Warioware series because of his moves and appearence and portrayal because it is so different from the Wario we see in the Mario spin offs, when I see Lucario, I see Pokemon character nr. 5 because that's the only Version of him that has been established. Wario has had multiple games with his own whole league of unique characters, own world, own gameplay - why wouldn't he be seperated from the other Mario games? Same with DK or, to an lesser extent, Yoshi. Yes, all those characters have a Connection with Mario, but they also have series that sets them so much apart from Mario that they deserve that own Icon and their own right to be there not as a Mario character, but a representative of their own series, and thats why People are okay with it. I highly, highly doubt they would be happy with another random Mario character that usually just stands around in the Background or Pops up in Party games or a random Pokemon out of 700 (that's why they are complaining).

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No? If Wario didn't have WarioWare or Land I wouldn't consider him fit for the series, mostly because, aside from being in Mario Tennis or whatever, he wouldn't have done anything worth noting since his debut, and even that was hardly anything. It would be like the handful of people trying to get Daisy into Smash. Aside from a few cheers from the sidelines, most would complain that another slot went wasted.

 

That, and I'm not sure that you realize that Wario and DK got those icons because they have separate series? The icons didn't just magically create new franchises? This is all getting a bit absurd, comrade.

That's just you, tons of people would consider Wario more worthy than Rosalina even if he didn't have his own games.

 

And that's exactly what I'm saying, they have those icons because they have separate series' but as far as you guys are concerned the "imaginary character limit" is entirely dictated by those fricking icons. Pikachu has a separate series, literally the only difference between him and Yoshi is that Sakurai gave Yoshi an icon but not Pikachu. As far as some fans seem to be concerned, Pikachu doesn't have his own series because he doesn't have his own icon. Pokémon isn't allowed 6 reps because oh no they used up 5 icons already they couldn't possibly add more because of this character limit that has never ever actually existed. Even though Brawl would have had 7 Pokémon reps if development had gone on longer.

 

This got absurd the moment people started saying Yoshi and Wario aren't Mario characters. You know, those characters who have had the majority of their appearances in Mario multiplayer games, debuted in Mario games, are playable or support characters in Mario games (Yoshi is in more modern Mario platformers than Rosalina is!!), and in some cases have games in which Mario himself appears. That Yoshi and Wario? Yeah, they're not Mario characters at all!

 

Just for the record Zelda also has five character slots now that Sheik is a separate character and Ganondorf is all but guaranteed. Pokémon is also a far larger name than Zelda. Six Pokémon between Zelda's five and Mario's seven is perfectly fair.

Seriously I don't get why this is so hard for people to grasp.

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I'll use Wario as an example for how a Mario spinoff star is different from any old Pokemon.

 

Wario's own series brings us unique art, trophies, music, and stages. 

 

stage10_0700831a-l.jpg

 

This looks absolutely nothing like something out of a Mario game. Even if Wario has a constant precense in the Mario series, his portrayal in the Smash series is focused almost entirely around this subseries. Wario in smash represents Warioware and Warioland, two franchises that are extremely different from Mario. Another Pokemon represents....Pokemon. 

 

Wario is for the most part a Mario character, yes, but what he represents in Smash is so far removed from Mario that I'm surprised that he's being directly compared to just adding another Pokemon. Wario brings with him his own unique style. His own aesthetics. The guy's got enough material to be considered a brand new franchise on his own. 

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Though Yoshi, Donkey Kong, and Wario are all tied to the Mario series in a way, I see them all as separate series in the realm of Smash Bros. simply because the games classify them as such. They each have their own symbols and their own sections in the trophy gallery, so it's safe to say they're treated as separate series in Smash regardless of how they might seem outside of those games.

 

That said, while I think it would be cool for Mewtwo to return, I still don't see any series exceeding five slots on the character select screen. I'm perfectly fine with Mario and Pokémon having five reps each and since I figure they would still want to limit each series to only one column or less, six-slot columns would probably make the arrangement seem too vertical compared to previous entries.

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That's just you, tons of people would consider Wario more worthy than Rosalina even if he didn't have his own games.

 

And that's exactly what I'm saying, they have those icons because they have separate series' but as far as you guys are concerned the "imaginary character limit" is entirely dictated by those fricking icons. Pikachu has a separate series, literally the only difference between him and Yoshi is that Sakurai gave Yoshi an icon but not Pikachu. As far as some fans seem to be concerned, Pikachu doesn't have his own series because he doesn't have his own icon. Pokémon isn't allowed 6 reps because oh no they used up 5 icons already they couldn't possibly add more because of this character limit that has never ever actually existed.

 

This got absurd the moment people started saying Yoshi and Wario aren't Mario characters. You know, those characters who have had the majority of their appearances in Mario multiplayer games, debuted in Mario games, are playable or support characters in Mario games (Yoshi is in more modern Mario platformers than Rosalina is!!), and in some cases have games in which Mario himself appears. That Yoshi and Wario? Yeah, they're not Mario characters at all!

 

Seriously I don't get why this is so hard for people to grasp.

 

As far as Wario goes, I should say that I think otherwise. The reason Wario has so much demand in the first place is due to Wario Land and WarioWare. Otherwise, he'd just be some guy who might maybe hypothetically appear in the Maro spin-offs, and some guy doesn't command the same sort of attention an actual character with multiple appearances like Rosalina does. You can just upend the whole reason for a character's popularity and expect that popularity to still be there.

 

As far as Pikachu goes, no. He doesn't have his own separate series. He is the star of a handful of Pokémon spin-offs with the same tone, art, writing-style, and so on as the main games, with the only difference being a transplant in gameplay. You might as well try to argue that Mario deserves a separate icon for being the main character of Mario Kart.

 

And as for Yoshi, I haven't been arguing him because, well, his position is more debatable. Outside of him, though, the fact that Wario and DK also show up in Mario Kart doesn't devalue the host of games they've made by themselves (literally, in Wario's case). I'm not sure what's so difficult to grasp with this, comrade.

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@SuperLink: Yoshi's Moveset was partially based around his Yoshi's Island portrayal, though, while Pikachu's moveset is just the main series' attacks with NOTHING to represent ANY of his spin Offs, and that's why People like me don't consider him as a own character in the slightest.

 

And yes, Yoshi, of all the Kind of Mario games but not quite characters has probably the least reason to be labeled as a seperate series, but he still has more to him to seperate him from Mario than Pikachu ever did.

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Wario was included primarily due to his popularity as a Mario character. The fact is that Wario would never have even been considered if he wasn't in the Mario games and the Wario games were just a standalone series. At the same time I also feel that he wouldn't have been included if it weren't for his own games, because they gave him his own identity beyond just "a generic Mario expy."

 

Though the same can't really be said for Yoshi. Even his own games are still explicitly connected to the Mario series, and he's still more or less a Mario character. Even without his own games he would still have been included in Melee or Brawl as just a Mario character.

 

Donkey Kong, on the other hand, is more than a Mario character. While the original Donkey Kong Country's success was undeniably helped by the success of the original arcade game (though I feel obligated to point out that the name of the game was Donkey Kong and if anything Mario was the unexpectedly successful spinoff character) it also happened to be an amazingly fun and unique platformer. It's developed its own massive following outside of the Mario fanbase, and isn't just riding on Mario's coattails like Yoshi and Donkey Kong. Nobody looks at Diddy Kong and says "WHOA, that's that guy from Mario Kart!" Even most non-Nintendo fans I've spoken to recognize Donkey Kong as its own separate thing and not just a Mario spinoff. That is the difference between Donkey Kong's games and Yoshi and Wario's games.

 

The same goes for Pikachu. Regardless of whatever spinoff roles he's had, people still primarily recognize him as a Pokémon character. He is the mascot of the second-largest video game franchise ever behind Mario himself. His role in the main Pokémon games will always eclipse whatever else he does on the side.

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The fact is that Wario would never have even been considered if he wasn't in the Mario games and the Wario games were just a standalone series.

 

 

So you're telling me obscure as hell and not very beloved franchises like Ice Climbers and (formally) Kid Icarus can get reps in Smash Bros, but something as unique and popular as Warioware wouldn't have gotten a rep without riding off Mario's success? That....doesn't make sense to me.  

 

Wario, like Donkey Kong, started out as a Mario character, branched out rather early, and now has his own unique cast, characters, aesthetics, and gameplay. He may not be as popular as Donkey Kong, but otherwise their situations are practically the same.

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Wario is literally a Mario recolour who came into his own. To say Wario isn't a Mario character would be to say Raichu was no longer a Pokémon character if he suddenly started appearing in his own games with their own tone and style. He's so Mario-related it's not even funny. To say Wario isn't a Mario character is to say Shadow isn't a Sonic character.

 

 

As far as Wario goes, I should say that I think otherwise. The reason Wario has so much demand in the first place is due to Wario Land and WarioWare. Otherwise, he'd just be some guy who might maybe hypothetically appear in the Maro spin-offs, and some guy doesn't command the same sort of attention an actual character with multiple appearances like Rosalina does. You can just upend the whole reason for a character's popularity and expect that popularity to still be there.

 

As far as Pikachu goes, no. He doesn't have his own separate series. He is the star of a handful of Pokémon spin-offs with the same tone, art, writing-style, and so on as the main games, with the only difference being a transplant in gameplay. You might as well try to argue that Mario deserves a separate icon for being the main character of Mario Kart.

 

And as for Yoshi, I haven't been arguing him because, well, his position is more debatable. Outside of him, though, the fact that Wario and DK also show up in Mario Kart doesn't devalue the host of games they've made by themselves (literally, in Wario's case). I'm not sure what's so difficult to grasp with this, comrade.

Wario has demand because of his games? His games are niche, they're not successful and have never sold majorly, most people only know him because of Mario. Wario got in because he's popular and became unique in the Mario games. There are plenty of unique and popular Pokémon.

 

Also, Pikachu isn't the main character of Pokémon, he is iconic and extremely popular, a popularity that Nintendo actively pursue. So like, there's a character who is not a main character but is popular enough to have his own games that focus on him. And that's one of the most popular series' of all time?

 

I don't even know why I'm dignifying this debate, there is some serious anti-Pokémon bias going on here. Fair enough if you're not into Pokémon and you don't want to see it everywhere, but there is no character limit, it doesn't exist, it never has and it never will. Lucario made it into Brawl very late in development, and Mewtwo was the closest of the unfinished characters to being fully implemented. If Brawl had had a longer dev cycle Pokémon would have had 7 reps.

 

In Melee? Only one series had 5 reps, it was Mario. Melee did not have a rep limit. SSB64 did not have a rep limit. Brawl's rep limit is completely fan-fabricated.

 

That and, pretty much everyone on this forum wanted another Zelda character to be playable. People wanted Skull Kid, people wanted Midna, people wanted Groose, people still want Ghirahim. No one seems to have a problem with Zelda having 6 reps, just Pokémon. HMMM.

 

The rep limit doesn't exist and never has. People just don't want to see 6 Pokémon characters. Even though Brawl had 6 and almost had 7. That's it.

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Whoa, hey, I never said anything against Pokémon. I don't think anyone is against Pokémon here.

 

Anyway, I think that, if Sakurai considers them in different series (Mario, DK, Wario, Yoshi), then in SSB, they're in different series. Whether they're Mario characters or not, outside of Smash, is a different debate, IMO.

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The Wario games are plenty popular. They sell better than a lot of modern Sonic games, to be honest. But that success is mostly due to his role as a Mario character. They've developed their own following, but Wario will always be a Mario character to most people. His role as a Mario character is larger than his role in his own games. Wario's popularity as a Mario character gave him a large following as a popular Nintendo character, and his own games served as a platform to justify inclusion by showing that he's more than just a Yellow Mario.

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Wow people complaining that Wario shouldn't be in Smash? What is this opposite day?

 

Wario has always had battle mechanics and he fits in this game which is why he is perfect for this series. Nobody cares if he hails from the Marioverse or not, because he is a great addition to the roster.

 

Seriously, screw this imaginary character rep cap for the games you guys have.

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Wow people complaining that Wario shouldn't be in Smash? What is this opposite day?

 

Wario has always had battle mechanics and he fits in this game which is why he is perfect for this series. Nobody cares if he hails from the Marioverse or not he is a great addition to the roster.

I don't think anybody's actually been complaining about Wario being in the game...

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