Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS - Settle It In Smash!

[JaidynReiman]

Anyway, for all we know this guy could be fake. Supposedly I'm hearing that RogersBase said something about his statements or his source being "garbage," but I haven't been able to find it (and Steath is actually pretty buddy buddy with Roger, too, from what I've heard).

[Xenos]

I disagree, PK Thunder as it is, is a double edged sword, as opposed to previously where it was more of a liability as a recovery. It's still pretty hard to use considering this though. Predictable use of PK Thunder and PK Thunder 2 can really open a Ness player up for punishes.

A PK Fire nerf is all he really needs (maybe back throw nerf) and we're good.

It makes no sense to nerf PK Fire when it's exactly what you just described in the statement above it. It's unsafe in most cases, a simple shorthop opens Ness up, it has a lot of startup and is really telegraphed, and you can shield, up b, jab, out of it even if it does hit you.

 

Agreed. PK Thunder 2 doesn't need a nerf. It takes a hell of a good read to actually hit somebody with it, and like DBZ said it's rather predictable and a free punish if Ness misses anyway. Besides him having a reliable offstage projectile is something he needed, decreasing its usability when it isn't even required is dumb.

You guys are missing the difference between something being "good" and also "too good" PK Thunder as a projectile Ness can harass you with is way too good. It's almost impossible to avoid for any character not named Sheik, because not only is the body of it huge, the tail is extremely long and has a billion hitboxes running along it. He can also combo off of it depending on where the PK thunder sends you, which is impossible to really anticipate because there's no real consistency to it.

 

Making it slightly smaller barely decreases it's usability at all, I don't know what you're thinking there, and PK Thunder 2 shouldn't be one of the most polarizing moves in smash history. You missed the part where I said it's kill power should be nerfed, but it's actual use as a recovery move should be improved, so it actually makes sense.

[DBZHedgy]

It makes no sense to nerf PK Fire when it's exactly what you just described in the statement above it. It's unsafe in most cases, a simple shorthop opens Ness up, it has a lot of startup and is really telegraphed, and you can shield, up b, jab, out of it even if it does hit you.

It makes plenty of sense considering the 0-death true combo I just provided. Say what you will about PK Thunder, but it doesn't kill you at 0% (or rather, it doesn't lock you into a continuously hitting attack until you're at kill percent)

Also, don't forget about PK Jump cancel PK Fire, it pretty much guarantees a PK Fire chain after a down throw. Not to mention how easy it is to pivot PK Fire an opponent who is closing in on you. It's so easy to use. Why do you think everyone's always harping on about  "Pk Fire, Pk Fire, Pk Fire, Back Throw 'Okay'"?

PK Thunder may be big and the tail end may have a lot of hitboxes, but dodging it is a snap, and when a Ness player is doing said pestering, it leaves them wide open. A quick dodge, and it's straight to a punish. Especially since PK Thunder travels so slowly. That, or it'd lead to a PK Thunder 2 mix up, which can also be predicted and punished accordingly. I rarely ever see tourney players use this technique because it's so risky. In fact, the technique is rarely used in general. I don't even remember the last time I fought a For Glory Ness who would do that.

PK Fire is much harder to punish when compared to PK Thunder.

And quite frankly, the range of PK Thunder 2 is probably only so little because it does so much damage. Lucas is the one with the Far traveling, and less damaging PK Thunder 2. 

[Xenos]

A lot of characters have 0-Death true combos in this game, are we just going to nerf every single move that allows them now?

A pivot PK Fire is still easy to react to; generally, PK fire is a move Ness has to use intelligently, he can't just throw it out there and expect to get anything good out of it, because he gets nothing from hitting a shield with it, and even if he does it you with it, some characters have the ability to up b, jab, or even just shield/walk/run out of it. Or a combination of those things. It's not as simple as Ness getting a PK Fire hit confirm and getting easy bake oven combos because you have the ability to prevent that in most cases.

Also, dodging it is a "snap"? You must not realize what I'm talking about here. Nobody is talking about Ness using it as a projectile when both characters are onstage. I'm talking about Ness' opponent being offstage. You have much less room for error when Ness is constantly bombarding you with PK Thunder, unless your character has a godlike recovery like Sheik's or arguably ZSS, you're having a tough time getting back on stage. Ness controls much more space than you must realize when his opponent is in the position of needing to recover, and nothing is stopping him from running offstage and smacking you with one of his quicker aerials, and you probably don't have time to land any solid punishes when you have to recover.

 

And yeah, Ness' PK Thunder 2 is stronger so it's worse as a recovery. That's obvious. But it shouldn't be that strong and it should be a better recovery. Lower it's kill power by 30% or so, and give Ness something on it. It doesn't even need to go a bigger distance initially, let him wiggle left and right so he can not die instantly if he's slightly off the mark like Falcon Dive or Blazer, something like that.

 

Just because Lucas has a better recovery doesn't mean Ness' has to be that much worse. I say the same thing for Falco.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Xenos

[DBZHedgy]

When it's as easy to pull of as Ness' then Yes. =P

How easy is it to throw one out when someone is suffering from landing lag? Or on the frames of end lag on one of their moves? It really isn't as hard to land one as you make it out to be otherwise it would be literally impossible for me to land it on a lvl. 9 cpu. This isn't like Peach's infinite that takes insane amounts of precision to pull off. 

If you're offstage, the hitstun from the PK Thunder brings you back towards Ness, which makes it easier to get back onstage given that Ness' endlag on the move ends at about the same time the opponent can react (I.E. Airdodge, attack, etc). Unless it brings you to one of the bottom edges of the stage, in which case, tech. Hitting your opponent with PK Thunder offstage is an even worse tactic because of this.

I feel that it should be that strong given that it's so easy to predict and punish. Like Falcon/Warlock Punch? It takes a while, a good read, and a setup to get it to work properly, not only that, but doing it improperly can easily send you careening off of the stage, so you can only really do it center stage, or when recovering.

 

[Xenos]

When it's as easy to pull of as Ness' then Yes. =P

How easy is it to throw one out when someone is suffering from landing lag? Or on the frames of end lag on one of their moves? It really isn't as hard to land one as you make it out to be otherwise it would be literally impossible for me to land it on a lvl. 9 cpu. This isn't like Peach's infinite that takes insane amounts of precision to pull off. 

If you're offstage, the hitstun from the PK Thunder brings you back towards Ness, which makes it easier to get back onstage given that Ness' endlag on the move ends at about the same time the opponent can react (I.E. Airdodge, attack, etc). Unless it brings you to one of the bottom edges of the stage, in which case, tech. Hitting your opponent with PK Thunder offstage is an even worse tactic because of this.

I feel that it should be that strong given that it's so easy to predict and punish. Like Falcon/Warlock Punch? It takes a while, a good read, and a setup to get it to work properly, not only that, but doing it improperly can easily send you careening off of the stage, so you can only really do it center stage, or when recovering.

 

I just looked at that 0-Death combo.

First of all, that is going to hit absolutely nobody that knows how to approach Ness with a brain.

Second of all, Roy touched the ground multiple times in the middle of that combo. He could have Up B'd out of that on more than several occasions.

Third of all, you did this to a level 9 cpu. Is that a human player? No.

 

Please, please look at the bolded in your statement. I hope you realize how this doesn't work, you can't just reverse your statement and then apply it to the other move, because obviously the reverse of that reverse can still be applied. Moreover, you realize that PK Thunder autocancels at the apex of Ness' jump, meaning you have 4-5 frames of landing lag and act way before your opponent anyway. Teching the PK Thunder saves you from getting stage spiked, but surprise surprise! You're still in a bad position when he starts up PK Thunder again.

It is easy to predict and punish, which is why it needs to be changed. Ness should NOT be dying from a counter at 0% if he happens to be offstage, nor does he really need to use it as an attack considering he has plenty of much more intelligent options to attack with, so just nerf it's kill power and make it an actually good recovery like I've been saying.

[Red Cap]

PK Thunder is legitimately broken offstage. If you watch top Ness players like NAKAT, FOW, or Shaky, you'll notice that every single time their opponent is offstage, they'll either dash back and use PK Thunder or jump and use PK Thunder. And guess what? They almost always hit and juggle their opponent with it while they're trying to recover tacking on 15+ damage in the process or just gimp them with it outright.

PK Fire on the other hand is only slightly above average. It does a lot of damage, yes, but it has high, reactable startup and punishable endlag. If you block it you have more than enough time to hit him with a Smash attack. It's really not that good and it doesn't warrant a nerf.

[DBZHedgy]

I just looked at that 0-Death combo.

First of all, that is going to hit absolutely nobody that knows how to approach Ness with a brain.

Second of all, Roy touched the ground multiple times in the middle of that combo. He could have Up B'd out of that on more than several occasions.

Third of all, you did this to a level 9 cpu. Is that a human player? No.

Just because the video wasn't of a human player, it doesn't mean it doesn't work on a human player. I've done it to human players before, and I've fell victim to it before. It is 100% legit.

With the knowledge that lvl.9 CPUs perfect shield at literally every opportunity to do so, we can make the assumption that the player caught in the combo can't even shield, much less Up-B out of it, and this is speaking as someone who's been caught in the combo as well. Blazer wouldn't work even if he tried since Super Armor only lasts for about 2-3 hits, and then they become susceptible to flinching again.

Have you ever gotten hit with this combo before? I'm telling you, dude, it's unreal.

Please, please look at the bolded in your statement. I hope you realize how this doesn't work, you can't just reverse your statement and then apply it to the other move, because obviously the reverse of that reverse can still be applied. Moreover, you realize that PK Thunder autocancels at the apex of Ness' jump, meaning you have 4-5 frames of landing lag and act way before your opponent anyway. Teching the PK Thunder saves you from getting stage spiked, but surprise surprise! You're still in a bad position when he starts up PK Thunder again.

It is easy to predict and punish, which is why it needs to be changed. Ness should NOT be dying from a counter at 0% if he happens to be offstage, nor does he really need to use it as an attack considering he has plenty of much more intelligent options to attack with, so just nerf it's kill power and make it an actually good recovery like I've been saying.

The bolded statements are talking about two completely different situations though. With PK Fire, of course you can easily hit them with while they're suffering from Ending lag/Landing Lag because PK Fire immediately comes out and it's angled towards the ground, and PK Thunder has a much more significant delay unless you're directly above Ness, in which case, it phases through, and does damage similar to the Tail end of PK Thunder. This isn't simply the reverse of the opposite statement. 

In the video (with the combo), I hit the CPU with the PK Thunder, and he came right above Ness' head. I followed it up with an Uair, and it missed. Which means that he has too much end lag to followup with another attack, be it an aerial, or another PK Thunder.

But... Ness isn't the only character who dies to a counter at low percents. That's like a lot of characters on the roster, Lucas included. And his isn't even that strong. It should also be noted that if too close, Ness is completely invulnerable to the counter and goes right past the counterer, but he does lose some distance on his recovery. 

I still prefer a strong but mediocre recovery though. 

[Endy]

Just because the video wasn't of a human player, it doesn't mean it doesn't work on a human player. I've done it to human players before, and I've fell victim to it before. It is 100% legit.

With the knowledge that lvl.9 CPUs perfect shield at literally every opportunity to do so, we can make the assumption that the player caught in the combo can't even shield, much less Up-B out of it, and this is speaking as someone who's been caught in the combo as well. Blazer wouldn't work even if he tried since Super Armor only lasts for about 2-3 hits, and then they become susceptible to flinching again.

Have you ever gotten hit with this combo before? I'm telling you, dude, it's unreal.

Then those human players are bad players. If you can't get out of it you are a bad.

[Xenos]

Just because the video wasn't of a human player, it doesn't mean it doesn't work on a human player. I've done it to human players before, and I've fell victim to it before. It is 100% legit.

With the knowledge that lvl.9 CPUs perfect shield at literally every opportunity to do so, we can make the assumption that the player caught in the combo can't even shield, much less Up-B out of it, and this is speaking as someone who's been caught in the combo as well. Blazer wouldn't work even if he tried since Super Armor only lasts for about 2-3 hits, and then they become susceptible to flinching again.

Have you ever gotten hit with this combo before? I'm telling you, dude, it's unreal.

The bolded statements are talking about two completely different situations though. With PK Fire, of course you can easily hit them with while they're suffering from Ending lag/Landing Lag because PK Fire immediately comes out and it's angled towards the ground, and PK Thunder has a much more significant delay unless you're directly above Ness, in which case, it phases through, and does damage similar to the Tail end of PK Thunder. This isn't simply the reverse of the opposite statement. 

In the video (with the combo), I hit the CPU with the PK Thunder, and he came right above Ness' head. I followed it up with an Uair, and it missed. Which means that he has too much end lag to followup with another attack, be it an aerial, or another PK Thunder.

But... Ness isn't the only character who dies to a counter at low percents. That's like a lot of characters on the roster, Lucas included. And his isn't even that strong. It should also be noted that if too close, Ness is completely invulnerable to the counter and goes right past the counterer, but he does lose some distance on his recovery. 

I still prefer a strong but mediocre recovery though. 

No, level 9 CPUs do not power shield at every opportunity, how the hell would people even play this game at higher difficulties. They have intentional flaws in their programming so you can y'know, play the game. We're also not taking into account several things here.

 

Does this work on more than just fastfallers or heavies? Did they mash their best/safest move in that position? And let's talk about DI/SDI. Because you definitely can't just expect CPUs to know the most optimal DI or SDI for every move in the game. There is no way to tell me this is guaranteed without more extensive testing than "I've seen people get hit by it, I've gotten hit by it!" Because that's not reliable at all. And no, your bolded statements still don't work. PK Fire doesn't immediately come out, it has loads of startup! Who's going to even airdodge into the ground in a situation where Ness could even hit anyone with PK Fire from the ground anyway? That sounds like a whole lot of convolution. PK Thunder isn't that much slower in startup, and it's a lot easier to punish airdodge options when it autocancels out of full hop.

 

There's a difference between dying at 0% to a counter with Ness, because it's his only way of getting back on stage. Let me repeat, this is his only way to get back on stage.

 

He practically has no options, and one option is better than zero.

[Wraith]

Just because the video wasn't of a human player, it doesn't mean it doesn't work on a human player. I've done it to human players before, and I've fell victim to it before. It is 100% legit.

With the knowledge that lvl.9 CPUs perfect shield at literally every opportunity to do so, we can make the assumption that the player caught in the combo can't even shield, much less Up-B out of it, and this is speaking as someone who's been caught in the combo as well. Blazer wouldn't work even if he tried since Super Armor only lasts for about 2-3 hits, and then they become susceptible to flinching again.

Have you ever gotten hit with this combo before? I'm telling you, dude, it's unreal.

The bolded statements are talking about two completely different situations though. With PK Fire, of course you can easily hit them with while they're suffering from Ending

If the lvl 9s perfect shielded at every oppurtunity there was to do so with frame perfect accuracy like you're implying, you'd probably barely be able to hit them at all. Just because they're level 9 doesn't mean they're the end all be all of skill. They're not built to be able to flawlessly take you out. A CPU is never a good way to test this kind of thing because they're not perfect, nor do they represent anything an actual player can and will do. 

Try playing against actual people who know the game and testing this combo on them. Don't just base it off 1v1s with lvl 9s.

[Xenos]

One more thing:

Ok I'm out

Edited October 7, 2015 by Xenos

[DBZHedgy]

 

No, level 9 CPUs do not power shield at every opportunity, how the hell would people even play this game at higher difficulties. They have intentional flaws in their programming so you can y'know, play the game. We're also not taking into account several things here.

Does this work on more than just fastfallers or heavies? Did they mash their best/safest move in that position? And let's talk about DI/SDI. Because you definitely can't just expect CPUs to know the most optimal DI or SDI for every move in the game. There is no way to tell me this is guaranteed without more extensive testing than "I've seen people get hit by it, I've gotten hit by it!" Because that's not reliable at all. And no, your bolded statements still don't work. PK Fire doesn't immediately come out, it has loads of startup! Who's going to even airdodge into the ground in a situation where Ness could even hit anyone with PK Fire from the ground anyway? That sounds like a whole lot of convolution. PK Thunder isn't that much slower in startup, and it's a lot easier to punish airdodge options when it autocancels out of full hop.

There's a difference between dying at 0% to a counter with Ness, because it's his only way of getting back on stage. Let me repeat, this is his only way to get back on stage.

He practically has no options, and one option is better than zero.

Well, yes, I wasn't 100% accurate in saying that they will always 100% perfect shield everything, but I mean it's still pretty darn close. 

Yeah, it works on lighties too, starting with Mewtwo, but this is likely due to his large stature. Admittedly though, you're right. I do think it would need some more testing to solidify it because I haven't been able to fight a good Jigglypuff and use it, but I've still done it to a fair amount of players and Cpus to warrant that it is rather consistent in it's uses. The skill of said players may be called into question, but regardless, it still stands. If that's not good enough, maybe we should 1v1 sometime, and test it out maybe? You're probably like the best Smasher I know, so I don't see why not.

 

And no, your bolded statements still don't work. PK Fire doesn't immediately come out, it has loads of startup! Who's going to even airdodge into the ground in a situation where Ness could even hit anyone with PK Fire from the ground anyway? That sounds like a whole lot of convolution. PK Thunder isn't that much slower in startup, and it's a lot easier to punish airdodge options when it autocancels out of full hop.

There's a difference between dying at 0% to a counter with Ness, because it's his only way of getting back on stage. Let me repeat, this is his only way to get back on stage.

He practically has no options, and one option is better than zero.

Regardless of whether or not they air dodge, they still have landing lag, and those few frames pretty much sets it up perfectly, especially if the opponent has already burnt out their double jump.

If the lvl 9s perfect shielded at every oppurtunity there was to do so with frame perfect accuracy like you're implying, you'd probably barely be able to hit them at all. Just because they're level 9 doesn't mean they're the end all be all of skill. They're not built to be able to flawlessly take you out. A CPU is never a good way to test this kind of thing because they're not perfect, nor do they represent anything an actual player can and will do. 

Try playing against actual people who know the game and testing this combo on them. Don't just base it off 1v1s with lvl 9s.

Okay, again, yes, they are not literally perfect, but, again, they're pretty close. I mean, watch the video again. There isn't one time I can land a hit on it if it isn't already doing an attack. That may attest to my poor skill, but at the same time, it shows that it's pretty clear that it isn't just some hogwash I pulled out of the air. 

And I've said earlier that I've tested this on human players already as well. I didn't get the replay for it though because it was before the last patch I downloaded so the replay got deleted.

One more thing:

Ok I'm out

It doesn't have to be a double jump canceled PK Fire to work for the record. In fact, it actually works better when you use a grounded PK Fire. 

The last time you did it, it was right, but you didn't follow up with another PK Fire fast enough. Regardless, though you're pretty dead set on disagreeing so we should totes Smash sometime soon.

At like 0:40 there is some delay to your escape unlike the last few times.

[jords]

When Ryu dashes it looks like he's about to drop the illist beat....just saying.

[KHCast]

I'm getting the feeling Chibi Robo has a high chance to be the new Nintendo rep that's rumored. Nintendo seem to be advertising his new game a lot. (On YouTube that was the advertisement shown on the main page.) that'd be pretty neat to see. Especially after seeing how he could potentially work thanks to Flash 2.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

I'm getting the feeling Chibi Robo has a high chance to be the new Nintendo rep that's rumored. Nintendo seem to be advertising his new game a lot. (On YouTube that was the advertisement shown on the main page.) that'd be pretty neat to see. Especially after seeing how he could potentially work thanks to Flash 2.

Nah, every article Nintendo has been releasing has stated the exact opposite: This game is Chibi Robo's last chance, it tanks he's dead for the foreseeable future gamewise, and they don't expect it to save the franchise either.

[KHCast]

Then why make it of they have no faith in it?

 

plus isn't there some fan demand for him in smash?

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

Then why make it of they have no faith in it?

 

plus isn't there some fan demand for him in smash?

One of the smaller ones out there, not insignificant, but several characters from what are considered more niche franchises have bigger fanbases like Isaac.

The game's a final shot at redefining Chibi-Robo and making him relevant, and they have a director who likes him, but a series with 6 entries and with none of them being hits, well they may decide to let it simmer in the pot a few more gens like Kid Icarus.

[KHCast]

Speaking of Kid Icarus, it'd be awesome if Hades was a DLC character since he's got the makings of a playable character, and is another villain. If not him, maybe one of the hunters from Metroid Prime? Cause there's a lot still to work with from existing franchises that are repped aside from Mario lol.

[JaidynReiman]

Yeah, honestly, the only "new" franchises I can see happening are Splatoon, Rhythm Heaven, and Golden Sun. Everything I've read and heard about Chibi-Robo honestly implies to me they're just doing everything they can to try and get the game to sell, so I certainly don't think they have any plans of adding him into Smash.

The rumored character is probably Inkling if anyone. Plus, they want a character that will sell. If they can't sell Chibi-Robo games how the hell will they be able to sell a Chibi-Robo DLC character for Smash all that well? It will still have to be a high-profile a huge amount of people would want to see.

[KHCast]

Well I guess as a DLC character Chibi wouldn't work, but maybe in a hypothetical Smash 5 he could be included. I mean Ice Climbers and other low profile Nintendo characters have gotten in, so I don't see why it'd be any different for Chibi Robo.

[jords]

Most likely not for dlc. Next smash? Possibly. Next dlc characters is fan service.

Rayman or riot. 

[JaidynReiman]

Well I guess as a DLC character Chibi wouldn't work, but maybe in a hypothetical Smash 5 he could be included. I mean Ice Climbers and other low profile Nintendo characters have gotten in, so I don't see why it'd be any different for Chibi Robo.

Agreed on this. Chibi Robo is a viable candidate for Smash 5 but probably not as DLC. Maybe I can see him get a Mii Fighter costume.

[KHCast]

Most likely not for dlc. Next smash? Possibly. Next dlc characters is fan service.

Rayman or riot. 

the rumor made it clear it's a Nintendo character, so sadly, no Rayman.:/

[JaidynReiman]

the rumor made it clear it's a Nintendo character, so sadly, no Rayman.:/

I think he just meant DLC period, not necessarily the rumor.