Jump to content
Nintendoga

Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS - Settle It In Smash!

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, Xenos said:

Ok calm down

I'm calm. I'm just also really stern.

4 hours ago, jords said:

Bait B)  lol

Are you:

a. saying my response is bait

b. saying your response is bait

c. laughing at an earlier response

d. some fourth option

because I'm not going to dignify the rest of that reply with a response if the entire thing is a joke.

4 hours ago, Tiki said:

Your reasoning is literally the same thing.

No it's not. I'm using my experience in conjunction with a little abstract thought and deductive reasoning. It'd be literally the same thing if I entered a tournament and put more importancde on my results and that's just massively douchey.

4 hours ago, Tiki said:

Tier lists are based on tournament results and objective facts and figures.

The objective facts being that the tournaments have been won with certain characters more than others, right? Because all that's really saying is that more people are proficient at using certain characters more than others. If a lot of people lose playing as Mew Two, that just means they weren't proficient with that character enough to win. Theoretically, any a player can win the tournament with any character as long as their good enough. Judging the quality of a character based on a broad strokes assement is like saying one gun isn't as good as killing because the recoil messes you up. They were all made for the same purpose. It's the user's responsibility to famaliarize themselves with what they're handeling, otherwise face failure. You have to figure out the strenghts and weaknesses of your product and work with it.

4 hours ago, Tiki said:

For one no one really plays Mewtwo except for Blue and Mew² and even then, Mewtwo statistically is kind of fucking bad.

In tournaments or at all? Because I've seen plenty of people play as Mew Two in tournys as well as casually. As a matter of fact, that doesn't even look like a statement with any sound basis. Why exactly do you think Mew Two is hardly played? And the only thing those stats are saying is that a lot of people aren't good with Mew Two.

4 hours ago, Xenos said:

Mewtwo isn't that good because of a combination of his large size and weight. He's very easy to hit and when you do he explodes because he's the 2nd lightest character in the game. It's not a gigantic issue now that he's been buffed, but it's still significant enough to keep him from being as good as other characters.

Mewtwo's grab range is also very mediocre, and his grab isn't particularly fast. His up throw and back throw are decent at killing but they don't compare to superior kill throws of other characters (Ness, Toon Link). Furthermore, his grab game is okayish at best maybe, he doesn't really get any extensive combos or followups out of his down throw, he has enough to compete, (like 50/50 kill setups) but again, not too amazing.

His up tilt has a lot of cooldown for a move that's hitbox isn't very reliable, his back air is a good move, yes, but it's nowhere near as powerful as you make it out to be due to it's fairly honest startup, cooldown, and landing lag. Confusion isn't really all that great either. Most characters can jump out of it before he can do much of anything unless it's in the air for followups, or if he forces them to land on a platform above them. It's a situational move and it's not that powerful in the grand scheme of things.

I've only assessed his attacks. I can't make a comment about the weight and size. It's just how it is. Also, pardon me for the confusion on Confusion: I actually meant Disable. Since I've never played as Mew Two, I assumed Disable was Confusion since it puts you in a shield stun and actually makes it look like you were confused.

Mew Two's got the second strongest up throw in Sm4sh. I've been on the recieving end far too many times to not see how hazardous it is. And regardless of how his back throw fares againist Ness or Toon Link, it's still a fairly easy and annoying kill throw. And while not really that powerful, his forward throw traps you in place leaving you the target for follow up attacks. His up smash has the most knock back out of any of his attacks and on top of that traps foes in a multi-hit.  Lastly, Shadow Ball is one of the strongest and fastest projectiles in the game. Never mind that even if it's reflected, you can send it back even faster with Confusion. So unless you're Fox or the Pits, countering that is near impossible.

4 hours ago, jords said:

nigga.......

 

4 hours ago, Tiki said:

nigga.

Stop calling me that. I don't know ya'll like that :/ Plus it's generally never a good idea to talk to someone like that unless you know they're comfortable with it. For all you know, I could have been a social justice warrior ready to fire off about the importance of black progression yadda yadda yadda or just a super uptight black dude. Or maybe I just don't like being called that. Let's start with buddy first, m'kay?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Azul said:

I'm using my experience in conjunction with a little abstract thought and deductive reasoning.

snip

Since I've never played as Mew Two, I assumed

You claim to be speaking from experience and yet have never even played the character before?

Ooooooooooookay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Azul said:

I'm calm. I'm just also really stern.

Are you:

a. saying my response is bait

b. saying your response is bait

c. laughing at an earlier response

d. some fourth option

because I'm not going to dignify the rest of that reply with a response if the entire thing is a joke.

all of the above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

You claim to be speaking from experience and yet have never even played the character before?

Ooooooooooookay.

I meant my experience fighting the character.

1 minute ago, jords said:

all of the above.

Is that supposed to be trolling?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Azul said:

I'm calm. I'm just also really stern.

Are you:

a. saying my response is bait

b. saying your response is bait

c. laughing at an earlier response

d. some fourth option

because I'm not going to dignify the rest of that reply with a response if the entire thing is a joke.

No it's not. I'm using my experience in conjunction with a little abstract thought and deductive reasoning. It'd be literally the same thing if I entered a tournament and put more importancde on my results and that's just massively douchey.

The objective facts being that the tournaments have been won with certain characters more than others, right? Because all that's really saying is that more people are proficient at using certain characters more than others. If a lot of people lose playing as Mew Two, that just means they weren't proficient with that character enough to win. Theoretically, any a player can win the tournament with any character as long as their good enough. Judging the quality of a character based on a broad strokes assement is like saying one gun isn't as good as killing because the recoil messes you up. They were all made for the same purpose. It's the user's responsibility to famaliarize themselves with what they're handeling, otherwise face failure. You have to figure out the strenghts and weaknesses of your product and work with it.

In tournaments or at all? Because I've seen plenty of people play as Mew Two in tournys as well as casually. As a matter of fact, that doesn't even look like a statement with any sound basis. Why exactly do you think Mew Two is hardly played? And the only thing those stats are saying is that a lot of people aren't good with Mew Two.

I've only assessed his attacks. I can't make a comment about the weight and size. It's just how it is. Also, pardon me for the confusion on Confusion: I actually meant Disable. Since I've never played as Mew Two, I assumed Disable was Confusion since it puts you in a shield stun and actually makes it look like you were confused.

Mew Two's got the second strongest up throw in Sm4sh. I've been on the recieving end far too many times to not see how hazardous it is. And regardless of how his back throw fares againist Ness or Toon Link, it's still a fairly easy and annoying kill throw. And while not really that powerful, his forward throw traps you in place leaving you the target for follow up attacks. His up smash has the most knock back out of any of his attacks and on top of that traps foes in a multi-hit.  Lastly, Shadow Ball is one of the strongest and fastest projectiles in the game. Never mind that even if it's reflected, you can send it back even faster with Confusion. So unless you're Fox or the Pits, countering that is near impossible.

 

Stop calling me that. I don't know ya'll like that :/ Plus it's generally never a good idea to talk to someone like that unless you know they're comfortable with it. For all you know, I could have been a social justice warrior ready to fire off about the importance of black progression yadda yadda yadda or just a super uptight black dude. Or maybe I just don't like being called that. Let's start with buddy first, m'kay?

Mewtwo's up throw is one of the strongest, but ultimately it's still an up throw. It's killing people less than better kill throws that are usually mapped to the character's back throw. His forward throw doesn't trap people in place, either. You get hit by the multi-hitting projectile, then that's it. Mewtwo can't combo out of that throw at all; it's purely for damage. His up smash is good and powerful, but it's still quite punishable on whiff so it still has a downside. Shadow Ball is nice and all, but plenty of characters can reflect it twice if back at Mewtwo and have him die instantly because of how light he is. (Fox, Falco, Palutena, Zelda) or characters that can purely absorb/ignore it (Rosalina, Ness, Lucas, eventually Bayonetta with bat within reducing the damage and knockback significantly, Corrin) so it's not impossible for a  good amount of characters.

 

Disable isn't very good either with it's short range and being able to shield it. It's more of a gimmick than anything else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can tell you now that no one, absolutely no one is winning a tournament with jiggly puff or Zelda. The characters are baaaaad. They have waaay too many match ups that completely destroys them. Along with other low tiers.

 

If a jiggs is winning a weekly tourney that means their scene is bad. It's just facts man. Lol. But I guess you see the potential of every bad character in this game. 

Mewtwo is not that great. You say you have fought him a bunch to know how strong he is. Most of the time it's usually the player not learning the match up. If your constantly getting caught by mewtwos up smash then your doing not learning anything. 

This happens to me in certain match ups because I simply just got get good with the match up like zero suitt. But its definitely easier when facing a lower tier because of their limited options. 

When we looking at regions, Nationals, majors, monthlies, any big ones. They are no where to be found out of pools.

And my last post was trolly but the one before was not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Azul

A tier list isn't an end all be all guide to tell you who you can win with and who you can't. It's working with hard numbers and facts to tell you who you have the best chance at winning with under tournament conditions. It's not something that's supposed to be set in stone. Theoretically, the top Sheik player could fuck up and lose to a Zelda tomorrow, sure, but if you look at the hard data, the numbers that are in the game and what we get from tournaments, it's just not likely. A tier list is just there to predict the most likely outcomes like a weatherman. It's not the end all be all, and shakeups are to be expected as more patches come in, new things about the game are discovered, and more players come in. You think it's wrong? You're welcome go out there and prove it.

I think "Tournament Conditions" needs to be emphasized here, since the tier list obviously isn't going to apply for every setting in every mode across the game. Smash Bros is very dynamic. It's not uncommon to discover a move that was useless in the last one on one match you played works wonders in a free for all. The tier list is for the one on one 2 stock with only certain stages allowed kind of setup seen in tournaments. Even altering the rules slightly by allowing a polarizing stage could mix it up a bit. A lot of Mewtwo's moves aren't useful under tournament conditions even if they're useful in a free for all, a team battle, or even on For Glory.  From what you're saying, you seemed to have trouble with Mewtwo under more conditions than just those. The tier list is only meant for this specific way of playing and doesn't cover circumstance for the whole game.

The tier list also isn't meant to imply that Mewtwo is an undeniably  bad character. I actually play him and I think he's pretty good and has more than a few tricks up his sleeve. The problem is that the competition is absolutely fierce in this game. A lot of characters are good. A lot of them have bullshit that they can do. This doesn't mean that Mewtwo isn't powerful or that you can't or shouldn't lose to him. It's just that a lot of the cast is even stronger. It's all relative. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Palutena is probably the only character there that shouldn't be in bottom tier. From the very few players I've seen with her, she can't be that low. It's mostly because not many play her and it really takes alot of time to really master her. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right now, I'm more surprised that Sonic is set so high on the tier list here. I mean, I remember how he was cast close to the bottom for Brawl for his overall low killing potential, and then I see this and I'm now like, "So this is what he's like when he's not a late addition... Neat."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Xenos said:

Mewtwo's up throw is one of the strongest, but ultimately it's still an up throw. It's killing people less than better kill throws that are usually mapped to the character's back throw.

His up throw is almost a guarantee kill in red percentages. Comparing it other throws doesn't diminish or refute the fact that it's still a common go to for players looking for quick kills. 

1 hour ago, jords said:

And my last post was trolly but the one before was not.

 

Since you confirmed that it was serious:

Quote

 I wonder what great players you faced and beat with a low tier.  

Great players. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote

Level 9 cpus.........this does not count nigga.......

Because?

Quote

You can have all the good timingin the world and Shiek would still be like lol fuck outta here. Sheik doesn't give a fuck about frame data that's why she is dominant in this game. Her weakness is killing against a few MU which is mostly TOP TIER characters that give her trouble. She's cruising fighting low tiers and mid tiers even at high level play.

Good timing is pretty much how I've beaten most of the Shieks I've fought. By that logic, mean beating her with Bowser is an outlier.

Quote

Plus I am lazy(abit too lazy in some stuff lool). I'll happily judge if a post is bait or not. If I am wrong I still put out my reply instead of a one sentence post thinking its bait.

Not being lazy and actually taking time to understand what someone wrote is going to save you a lot of time having it repeated to you. I'm just saying because if you ever run into me again, you can save a lot of time and avoid pointless arguments if you read meticolously. I mean, unless you like reading stuff I write. In that case, I've got some poetry and rap I'm more than willing to share.

41 minutes ago, jords said:

Palutena is probably the only character there that shouldn't be in bottom tier. From the very few players I've seen with her, she can't be that low. It's mostly because not many play her and it really takes alot of time to really master her. 

 

This I agree with. One time, I was absolutely humiliated by a Palutena twice in a row with a barage of combos. I only managed one kill out of both of those rounds. Granted, and don't take this as me making excuse because that's exactly what this going to sound like, I might have won the second time if the 2/3DS controls actually did what I freaking tell it to.

1 hour ago, Xenos said:

His forward throw doesn't trap people in place, either. You get hit by the multi-hitting projectile, then that's it.

The multi-Shadow Ball assault traps you in place via hit stun. It doesn't paralyze you but you're only moving slightly because you're getting hit.

1 hour ago, Xenos said:

Mewtwo can't combo out of that throw at all; it's purely for damage.

At low damages and or if you're close enough, Mew Two can either jump and go for an air attack or if dash attack.

1 hour ago, Xenos said:

His up smash is good and powerful, but it's still quite punishable on whiff so it still has a downside.

That doesn't diminish the chain-effect or insane launch power. The pros outweigh the cons. Dodging it still leaves you open to the remaining frames of the attack and blocking doesn't always leave you enough time to counter. Rolling is the best way to avoid it.

 

1 hour ago, Xenos said:

Shadow Ball is nice and all, but plenty of characters can reflect it twice if back at Mewtwo and have him die instantly because of how light he is. (Fox, Falco, Palutena, Zelda)

Falco has a significantly lower chance of reflecting a Shadow Ball twice since his Reflector isn't constant. That pause between him catching his Reflector and kicking it can be fatal. Same goes for Zelda, although hers is quicker and may have the possibility of reflecting it multiple times after using it in rapin sucession but it's short duration also leaves you open as well.

 

1 hour ago, Xenos said:

or characters that can purely absorb/ignore it (Rosalina, Ness, Lucas, eventually Bayonetta with bat within reducing the damage and knockback significantly, Corrin) so it's not impossible for a  good amount of characters.

Absorbing projectiles is a giving. You can't count that againist the effectiveness of the attack since it can happen to any energy projectile.

 

1 hour ago, Xenos said:

Disable isn't very good either with it's short range and being able to shield it. It's more of a gimmick than anything else.

gimmick /ɡimik/ noun - a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business.

You're saying Disable is more for show than actual use. The fact that its primary use is to put the target in a dizzy state and make them suseptible to attacks makes it the exact opposite of a gimmick. So I take it you've never been hit with, performed, or thought of stunning you opponent at orange percentages and either using Confusion, grabbing and throwing, or going straight for the kill with a smash attack?

1 hour ago, jords said:

I can tell you now that no one, absolutely no one is winning a tournament with jiggly puff--

Imma lechu finish but first, let me share this article about this guy who's done exactly that.

1 hour ago, jords said:

--or Zelda.

Ahem.

1 hour ago, jords said:

Mewtwo is not that great. You say you have fought him a bunch to know how strong he is. Most of the time it's usually the player not learning the match up. If your constantly getting caught by mewtwos up smash then your doing not learning anything. 

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

From what you're saying, you seemed to have trouble with Mewtwo under more conditions than just those.

39 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but whoever you're fighting is probably hitting you with these things because you don't know how to stop them from doing it, that's probably a reason. 

I don't recall typing I had a problem dealing with him. I've long since discovered ways to avoid Mew Two strategies for the most part, not helped by the fact that most M2s online play the same and straight up suck these days, but that doesn't remove the fact that I'm not perfect or that being cheap with him can still rake up easy kills.

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

A tier list isn't an end all be all guide to tell you who you can win with and who you can't. It's working with hard numbers and facts to tell you who you have the best chance at winning with under tournament conditions. It's not something that's supposed to be set in stone. Theoretically, the top Sheik player could fuck up and lose to a Zelda tomorrow, sure, but if you look at the hard data, the numbers that are in the game and what we get from tournaments, it's just not likely. A tier list is just there to predict the most likely outcomes like a weatherman. It's not the end all be all, and shakeups are to be expected as more patches come in, new things about the game are discovered, and more players come in.

This I know. The premise of my argument is that it doesn't determine who the best characters are because it's not that simple.

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

You think it's wrong? You're welcome go out there and prove it.

If you mean by going to tournaments than that's not happening anytime soon.

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

I think "Tournament Conditions" needs to be emphasized here, since the tier list obviously isn't going to apply for every setting in every mode across the game... The tier list is for the one on one 2 stock with only certain stages allowed kind of setup seen in tournaments. Even altering the rules slightly by allowing a polarizing stage could mix it up a bit.

There is no difference between For Glory 1-on-1 and tourney rules. That, alongside team battles and free-for-all, are the only frame of reference I've been using.

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

A lot of Mewtwo's moves aren't useful under tournament conditions even if they're useful in a free for all, a team battle, or even on For Glory.

Does that mean they don't work? Because personal experience andwitnesses say other wise.

32 minutes ago, Komodin said:

Right now, I'm more surprised that Sonic is set so high on the tier list here. I mean, I remember how he was cast close to the bottom for Brawl for his overall low killing potential, and then I see this and I'm now like, "So this is what he's like when he's not a late addition... Neat."

For a while he was #1 and I was irked he hasn't stayed there, slighty due to me maining him, but mainly because he's a monstar if you're a fast player. Good Sonics are a rare sighty but when you run into one, hooo boy.

1 hour ago, Xenos said:

Mewtwo's up throw is one of the strongest, but ultimately it's still an up throw. It's killing people less than better kill throws that are usually mapped to the character's back throw.

His up throw is almost a guarantee kill in red percentages. Comparing it other throws doesn't diminish or refute the fact that it's still a common go to for players looking for quick kills. 

1 hour ago, jords said:

And my last post was trolly but the one before was not.

 

That's not cool.

41 minutes ago, jords said:

Palutena is probably the only character there that shouldn't be in bottom tier. From the very few players I've seen with her, she can't be that low. It's mostly because not many play her and it really takes alot of time to really master her. 

 

This I agree with. One time, I was absolutely humiliated by a Palutena twice in a row with a barage of combos. I only managed one kill out of both of those rounds. Granted, and don't take this as me making excuse because that's exactly what this going to sound like, I might have won the second time if the 2/3DS controls actually did what I freaking tell it to.

1 hour ago, Xenos said:

His forward throw doesn't trap people in place, either. You get hit by the multi-hitting projectile, then that's it.

The multi-Shadow Ball assault traps you in place via hit stun. It doesn't paralyze you but you're only moving slightly because you're getting hit.

1 hour ago, Xenos said:

Mewtwo can't combo out of that throw at all; it's purely for damage.

At low damages and or if you're close enough, Mew Two can either jump and go for an air attack or if dash attack.

1 hour ago, Xenos said:

His up smash is good and powerful, but it's still quite punishable on whiff so it still has a downside.

That doesn't diminish the chain-effect or insane launch power. The pros outweigh the cons. Dodging it still leaves you open to the remaining frames of the attack and blocking doesn't always leave you enough time to counter. Rolling is the best way to avoid it.

 

1 hour ago, Xenos said:

Shadow Ball is nice and all, but plenty of characters can reflect it twice if back at Mewtwo and have him die instantly because of how light he is. (Fox, Falco, Palutena, Zelda)

Falco has a significantly lower chance of reflecting a Shadow Ball twice since his Reflector isn't constant. That pause between him catching his Reflector and kicking it can be fatal. Same goes for Zelda, although hers is quicker and may have the possibility of reflecting it multiple times after using it in rapin sucession but it's short duration also leaves you open as well.

 

1 hour ago, Xenos said:

or characters that can purely absorb/ignore it (Rosalina, Ness, Lucas, eventually Bayonetta with bat within reducing the damage and knockback significantly, Corrin) so it's not impossible for a  good amount of characters.

Absorbing projectiles is a giving. You can't count that againist the effectiveness of the attack since it can happen to any energy projectile.

 

1 hour ago, Xenos said:

Disable isn't very good either with it's short range and being able to shield it. It's more of a gimmick than anything else.

gimmick /ɡimik/ noun - a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business.

You're saying Disable is more for show than actual use. The fact that its primary use is to put the target in a dizzy state and make them suseptible to attacks makes it the exact opposite of a gimmick. So I take it you've never been hit with, performed, or thought of stunning you opponent at orange percentages and either using Confusion, grabbing and throwing, or going straight for the kill with a smash attack?

1 hour ago, jords said:

I can tell you now that no one, absolutely no one is winning a tournament with jiggly puff--

Imma lechu finish but first, let me share this article about this guy who's done exactly that.

1 hour ago, jords said:

--or Zelda.

Ahem.

1 hour ago, jords said:

Mewtwo is not that great. You say you have fought him a bunch to know how strong he is. Most of the time it's usually the player not learning the match up. If your constantly getting caught by mewtwos up smash then your doing not learning anything. 

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

From what you're saying, you seemed to have trouble with Mewtwo under more conditions than just those.

39 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but whoever you're fighting is probably hitting you with these things because you don't know how to stop them from doing it, that's probably a reason. 

I don't recall typing I had a problem dealing with him. I've long since discovered ways to avoid Mew Two strategies for the most part, not helped by the fact that most M2s online play the same and straight up suck these days, but that doesn't remove the fact that I'm not perfect or that being cheap with him can still rake up easy kills.

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

A tier list isn't an end all be all guide to tell you who you can win with and who you can't. It's working with hard numbers and facts to tell you who you have the best chance at winning with under tournament conditions. It's not something that's supposed to be set in stone. Theoretically, the top Sheik player could fuck up and lose to a Zelda tomorrow, sure, but if you look at the hard data, the numbers that are in the game and what we get from tournaments, it's just not likely. A tier list is just there to predict the most likely outcomes like a weatherman. It's not the end all be all, and shakeups are to be expected as more patches come in, new things about the game are discovered, and more players come in.

This I know. The premise of my argument is that it doesn't determine who the best characters are because it's not that simple.

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

You think it's wrong? You're welcome go out there and prove it.

If you mean by going to tournaments than that's not happening anytime soon.

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

I think "Tournament Conditions" needs to be emphasized here, since the tier list obviously isn't going to apply for every setting in every mode across the game... The tier list is for the one on one 2 stock with only certain stages allowed kind of setup seen in tournaments. Even altering the rules slightly by allowing a polarizing stage could mix it up a bit.

There is no difference between For Glory 1-on-1 and tourney rules. That, alongside team battles and free-for-all, are the only frame of reference I've been using.

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

A lot of Mewtwo's moves aren't useful under tournament conditions even if they're useful in a free for all, a team battle, or even on For Glory.

Does that mean they don't work? Because personal experience andwitnesses say other wise.

32 minutes ago, Komodin said:

Right now, I'm more surprised that Sonic is set so high on the tier list here. I mean, I remember how he was cast close to the bottom for Brawl for his overall low killing potential, and then I see this and I'm now like, "So this is what he's like when he's not a late addition... Neat."

For a while he was #1 and I was irked he hasn't stayed there, slighty due to me maining him, but mainly because he's a monstar if you're a fast player. Good Sonics are a rare sighty but when you run into one, hooo boy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Azul said:

 

I don't recall typing I had a problem dealing with him. I've long since discovered ways to avoid Mew Two strategies for the most part, not helped by the fact that most M2s online play the same and straight up suck these days, but that doesn't remove the fact that I'm not perfect or that being cheap with him can still rake up easy kills.

I'm almost certain they don't take into consideration players who spam the same tactics online when making a tier list, and instead use data from people who are actually playing the game at the highest level. Ya know, like tournaments. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

21 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

I'm almost certain they don't take into consideration players who spam the same tactics online when making a tier list,

I never said they did...? Alls I'm sayin' is that you don't have to be all that good to kick ass take names with Mew Two.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you actually thought I was talking about melee. Seriously? LOL of course jiggly puff is capable of winning a major in that game. Not smash 4.

If you wanna count nairo beating people with Zelda in the very early days of smash 4 then where is she now? Almost everyone was still learning smash 4 and picking thier mains. Especially from the Wii u version since they can really practice with their preferred controllers.

Some low tiers can get their shine in some smaller tournies but most of the time it's a one time thing. Most low tiers lack consistency of good results in tournaments.

Thier isn't results for free for all. Casually, you can play any character lol. It doesn't matter. Team battles is almost the same. The lower tiers would still have trouble but they can be a great support character to another character. I still don't see too many low tiers in doubles anyways because top tiers are still better in teams.

 

Cpus don't count because we ain't fighting cpus in tourney's. The tier list is based on results from real players in real tournaments with tourney rules being 1v1 with 2 stocks in 6 minutes. 

I don't mind talking. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Azul said:

 

I never said they did...? Alls I'm sayin' is that you don't have to be all that good to kick ass take names with Mew Two.

 

And what I'm saying is that none of that matters when making a tier list, so your complaints "Mewtwo is too low" is kind of meaningless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, jords said:

Did you actually thought I was talking about melee.

This blunder's on me since the video itself won't actully load and the article itself didn't specify Dreamhack was a Melee tournament. But the point still holds up since someone playing as Zelda, the worst ranked character in the game, has won a tournament.

6 hours ago, jords said:

If you wanna count nairo beating people with Zelda in the very early days of smash 4 then where is she now? Almost everyone was still learning smash 4 and picking thier mains. Especially from the Wii u version since they can really practice with their preferred controllers.

Those are all very weak arguments. First of all, you said nobody could win a tournament with Zelda period, and I found proof that it could happen. You never specified which point in time that it'd be impossible so I can only assume you meant at any and every point. And if you were refering specifically to an earlier point in time, it doesn't make sense to bring it up until after I already retorted againist it since I can't make an accurate assement based on withheld information

Second, unless Zelda or any of the characters plays radically different to the point where there are obvious differences in gameplay between then and now than it doesn't matter which point of time you were refering to. As a matter of fact, in the earlier patches, most of the characters were even better than they are now, hence why they had to be nerfed to make the game more balanced. Zelda's got more buffs at this point in the game than ever before so it's worth noting someone won an entire tournament with possibly the worst incarnation of her at a point in time when most of the characters were already imbalanced to the point where they had to be nerfed.

Third, the tourny scene is for expirienced players. Your claim that everyone was still learning how to play Smash 4 makes ZeRo sense considering 1) the inclusiong of the Gamecube controler makes the controls are exactly the same as they were in the last two games so getting used to the slight differences presnted in Sm4sh shouldn't take long for people who've been smashing since the considerably faster Melee, 2) you make it seem like beginners in Smash entered the tournament when it's practically a prerequisite to have considerable skill and experience before doing so if you're actually planning to win. Any smart person would make sure they were accustomed to the controller of choice before entering the tournament. And if you're at a point where you're still picking your mains, than the tourney scene most likely is not for you. It's also worth noting that in that video, both players were using Gamecube controlers anyway, which has been the golden standard since Brawl.

7 hours ago, jords said:

Thier isn't results for free for all. Casually, you can play any character lol. It doesn't matter. Team battles is almost the same.

Define casual. If I'm playing with tournament rules during gameplay, than what does that matter? Besides, I never said either of those count towards tier lists anyway.

 

7 hours ago, jords said:

The lower tiers would still have trouble but they can be a great support character to another character. I still don't see too many low tiers in doubles anyways because top tiers are still better in teams.

The thing is, since tier lists are different in every region anyway, you can't say for sure which character would have issues with each other. I mean, the tier list that started this asine conversation is from Japan. So if each region has a tier list, which ones have the most accurate results? The best way to determine that would be by combining the data collected from each region. If we're going with the stats as a justification for which characters should play better, why is it that the results aren't universally similar overall?

7 hours ago, jords said:

Cpus don't count because we ain't fighting cpus in tourney's. The tier list is based on results from real players in real tournaments with tourney rules being 1v1 with 2 stocks in 6 minutes.

I only brought up the CPUs the establish my level of skill. No offense to some of the participants but some of them wouldn't stack up againist a level 9 CPU regardless.

6 hours ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

And what I'm saying is that none of that matters when making a tier list, so your complaints "Mewtwo is too low" is kind of meaningless.

To put this into better words, I'm arguing the effectiveness of Mewtwo's assets overall. The premise is that "Mewtwo has assets that can potentially earn him easy kills even without trying." Just because no one else has actually done it before, and in spite of the fact that very few actually have won achieved favorable results with him before doesn't make him any less of an efficient player theoretically. It's the same reason why some characters jump spots on the list when people discover new things with them. The underlying idea of all this is that Mewtwo's position isn't justified because he can perform a lot better on what's generally been agreed on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Azul said:

No it's not. I'm using my experience in conjunction with a little abstract thought and deductive reasoning. It'd be literally the same thing if I entered a tournament and put more importancde on my results and that's just massively douchey.

The objective facts being that the tournaments have been won with certain characters more than others, right? Because all that's really saying is that more people are proficient at using certain characters more than others. If a lot of people lose playing as Mew Two, that just means they weren't proficient with that character enough to win. Theoretically, any a player can win the tournament with any character as long as their good enough. Judging the quality of a character based on a broad strokes assement is like saying one gun isn't as good as killing because the recoil messes you up. They were all made for the same purpose. It's the user's responsibility to famaliarize themselves with what they're handeling, otherwise face failure. You have to figure out the strenghts and weaknesses of your product and work with it.

No, the objective facts and figures being his frame data and other such charateristics.

Mewtwo's weight, combined with his size lead to less than stellar performance due to him dying early and being combo food because he's huge.

9 hours ago, Azul said:

His up throw is almost a guarantee kill in red percentages. Comparing it other throws doesn't diminish or refute the fact that it's still a common go to for players looking for quick kills. 

That's good and all but Mewtwo's grab hitbox is kind of shit.

Quote

Because

Level 9 CPUs don't count because they are nowhere near the level of an actual tournament or even semi-pro player, based on their AI alone.

Quote

The multi-Shadow Ball assault traps you in place via hit stun. It doesn't paralyze you but you're only moving slightly because you're getting hit.

Nope, you can DI out of his fthrow.

Quote

At low damages and or if you're close enough, Mew Two can either jump and go for an air attack or if dash attack.

Fthrow isn't remotely a combo throw purely based on how it functions. You can avoid any options Mewtwo tries to go for out of fthrow.

Quote

That doesn't diminish the chain-effect or insane launch power. The pros outweigh the cons. Dodging it still leaves you open to the remaining frames of the attack and blocking doesn't always leave you enough time to counter. Rolling is the best way to avoid it.

There's no chain effect, people can definitely fall out of Mewtwo's up smash. Spotdodging would have to be frame perfect I guess, but rolling isn't optimal because that shit is frame 9, he can punish rolls with it. Blocking doesn't have to lead to a counter attack, it can purely exist to mitigate damage, which is why it's the best option here.

Quote

Falco has a significantly lower chance of reflecting a Shadow Ball twice since his Reflector isn't constant. That pause between him catching his Reflector and kicking it can be fatal. Same goes for Zelda, although hers is quicker and may have the possibility of reflecting it multiple times after using it in rapin sucession but it's short duration also leaves you open as well.

But in a competitive environment, you aren't just spamming reflectors to attempt a reflection, you'll have the timing down pat, especially in Falco's case since iirc, the reflecting hitbox lasts on the way out and back in.

Quote

Absorbing projectiles is a giving. You can't count that againist the effectiveness of the attack since it can happen to any energy projectile.

Yes you can. Mewtwo would have less of an advantage (if he had one to start with) in a match up against characters with such moves.

Quote

gimmick /ɡimik/ noun - a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business.
You're saying Disable is more for show than actual use. The fact that its primary use is to put the target in a dizzy state and make them suseptible to attacks makes it the exact opposite of a gimmick. So I take it you've never been hit with, performed, or thought of stunning you opponent at orange percentages and either using Confusion, grabbing and throwing, or going straight for the kill with a smash attack?

Disable's hitbox is actually atrocious, it's really slow and has horrendous range.

Quote

That's Melee.

Quote

Playing characters well doesn't make the character any better. ESAM is probably the best Smash 4 Samus and she's still ass. This trait can carry over to Zelda as well.

Quote

There is no difference between For Glory 1-on-1 and tourney rules. That, alongside team battles and free-for-all, are the only frame of reference I've been using.

Tournaments are 2 stock/6 minutes instead of 2 stock/5. Tourneys also run a variety of legal stages, not just Final Destination with slightly different sides and a fresh lick o' paint.

Quote

For a while he was #1 and I was irked he hasn't stayed there, slighty due to me maining him, but mainly because he's a monstar if you're a fast player. Good Sonics are a rare sighty but when you run into one, hooo boy.

I don't know what game you're thinking of but Sonic has never been #1 dude. Sheik has been 0572.png since 3DS release.

5 minutes ago, Azul said:

The thing is, since tier lists are different in every region anyway, you can't say for sure which character would have issues with each other.

No they aren't (for this game)

Quote

I mean, the tier list that started this asine conversation is from Japan.

No it's not.

Quote

So if each region has a tier list, which ones have the most accurate results? The best way to determine that would be by combining the data collected from each region. If we're going with the stats as a justification for which characters should play better, why is it that the results aren't universally similar overall?

It's subjective because each region has varying metagames.

7 minutes ago, Azul said:

I only brought up the CPUs the establish my level of skill. No offense to some of the participants but some of them wouldn't stack up againist a level 9 CPU regardless.

giphy.gif

CPUs don't establish skill, playing against real people do, my nigga. I could go around JV3-stocking Level 9 CPUs and then go online get my ass put down by @Xenos or @jords

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Azul said:

To put this into better words, I'm arguing the effectiveness of Mewtwo's assets overall. The premise is that "Mewtwo has assets that can potentially earn him easy kills even without trying." Just because no one else has actually done it before, and in spite of the fact that very few actually have won achieved favorable results with him before doesn't make him any less of an efficient player theoretically. It's the same reason why some characters jump spots on the list when people discover new things with them. The underlying idea of all this is that Mewtwo's position isn't justified because he can perform a lot better on what's generally been agreed on.

You're not really arguing about his overall assets, otherwise you'd look at the character beyond how easily he can kill. His height, his weight, etc etc all are factors that determine how good he is. So your premise is inherently flawed because you are ignoring factors and data beyond just "How easy can he kill" You don't even take my word for it, go on the Smash Boards and ask around.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Komodin said:

Right now, I'm more surprised that Sonic is set so high on the tier list here. I mean, I remember how he was cast close to the bottom for Brawl for his overall low killing potential, and then I see this and I'm now like, "So this is what he's like when he's not a late addition... Neat."

He was actually mid-tier in Brawl. 22nd place out of 38 characters, that's not bad at all. He even got some pretty decent tournament placings in that game courtesy of players like Espy and 6WX. Even if his killing potential was low (outside of forward smash and back air), his moveset was confusing and very hard to predict since almost all his moves were him rolling up into a ball, plus he was a beast at racking damage and had a very good recovery.

Also, Mewtwo is flawed as a character but he's designed to be a glass cannon. I personally think he's a pretty good character. He can kill very early and has great (if unorthodox) combo potential, but he's meant to be brought down by having poor survivability and having to deal with being large in size. After the patch reduced the landing lag on all his aerials and fixed most of the hitboxes on his moves (still want an up tilt and grab size increase tho), his strengths are pretty much as equal to his weaknesses. Say what you want about him, but he at least fulfills his design intention much more than characters like Jigglypuff, Zelda or Roy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Komodin said:

Right now, I'm more surprised that Sonic is set so high on the tier list here. I mean, I remember how he was cast close to the bottom for Brawl for his overall low killing potential, and then I see this and I'm now like, "So this is what he's like when he's not a late addition... Neat."

 

19 minutes ago, Felix said:

He was actually mid-tier in Brawl. 22nd place out of 38 characters, that's not bad at all. He even got some pretty decent tournament placings in that game courtesy of players like Espy and 6WX. Even if his killing potential was low (outside of forward smash and back air), his moveset was confusing and very hard to predict since almost all his moves were him rolling up into a ball, plus he was a beast at racking damage and had a very good recovery.

Actually, sonic was low tier at first. Then some determined fans wanted to see him place higher and came up with a bunch of techniques and thus he could place higher in tourneys. The tier lists reflected that change by promoting him about 6 places up.

That said, tier lists can change. But currently the meta thinks mewtwo is pretty bad. Of course, the game is still pretty young and this is only the first tier list. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

You're not really arguing about his overall assets, otherwise you'd look at the character beyond how easily he can kill. His height, his weight, etc etc all are factors that determine how good he is. So your premise is inherently flawed because you are ignoring factors and data beyond just "How easy can he kill" You don't even take my word for it, go on the Smash Boards and ask around.

Assets are anything that aids him in achieving the games objectives. His weaknesses wouldn't be assets since they impede his ability to do so. They'd be liabilites, the exact opposite.The premise revolves around his assets being considerably more than enough to compensate for than his liabilites. Him being the second lightest character in conjecture with his large frame is to balance him out. However, I'm saying that in spite of his short comings, I'm arguing that his potential to KOs is greater than his potential for being KO'd. Going on the Smash boards would achieve nothing since the premise is already "Mewtwo is an underrated character." Anything that says otherwise has already been addressed earlier in the conversation.

 

13 minutes ago, caseykz said:

Of course, the game is still pretty young and this is only the first tier list. 

There've been several tier lists since the games 3DS release.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Azul

So um I went back to see the tourney videos and nairo didn't win the tourney with Zelda. He faced players who are playing characters that don't even play these characters today. Looking at keitaro he played Rosalina and diddy Kong and was pretty bad with them at the time because its still early in the game. Nairo didn't even win the tourney himself lol (was really close though) but he knew he had to stop playing Zelda especially in grand finals. He had to change.

 

And also it doesn't really matter if your already an experience player from other games. Smash 4 is still completely different. Everyone still has to learn everything and every match up they play with whatever character.

Look at hungrybox. Famous jiggly puff player in melee. One of the best. And he's struggling hard to get good results in smash 4 with jigglypuff. Why? Its not him, its jigglypuff. Not too long ago he finally gave up on her and decided to try learn a better character which he chose Mario.

What I mean practice with their controlllers is practicing their mains tech and general movement in smash 4.

No one is doing perfect pivots in the 3ds, if they do try to do it then RIP circle pad. So when the wiiu version dropped with gamecube controllers that's when everyone can start exploring the game to find hidden tech that's almost impossible to perform on 3ds consistently.

Wiiu version dropped and people have found out about perfect pivot. 

And looking at nairo's pit in that same tourney its definitely not the same now. Him as an experienced player was still learning the character. 

Casual at its finest.

 

Anything that's not stock with 2-3 lives, no items, legal stages then its considered casual. (Yes some tourney still has 3 stocks)

There is one exception. If both players in that are about to play each other in tournament agree to play on whatever stage then they can go pick any stage in the game. So I can agree with someone to pick pacland and have our game there. But hardly anyone does that because they don't want to get fucked over by some stupid stages hazards and weird stage layouts that's meant for casual play. Can be fun though if your not serious lol.

Many people are still waiting for someone to show off these lowtiers but we see enough of them to know that they really are not great. 

Like I said earlier, that one samus player that was doing hella good at 2gg before genisis and took a game off ZeRo which is cool, making samus looking like she can do stuff but can he consistently keep getting good results? Probably not. Where was he at genisis? Pax south? Maybe he's doing well in his local scene but anywhere else? Nothing.

 

Blue took a set from nairo with mewtwo not too long ago. I'm pretty sure nairo was unfamiliar with the matchup and was caught off guard with blues mewtwo because blues mewtwo is actually good. Then he meets nairo in grand finals and gets bodied in both sets. Everyone thought, "can he do it again in grand finals" and it turns out he can't.

Everyone moved on like nothing has happen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, jords said:

Look at hungrybox. Famous jiggly puff player in melee. One of the best. And he's struggling hard to get good results in smash 4 with jigglypuff. Why? Its not him, its jigglypuff. Not too long ago he finally gave up on her and decided to try learn a better character which he chose Mario.

You missed it Jords. He plays even higher tier now...........

 

EDIT: So I had to go confirm... turns out 4BR thinks Ness is worse, moving on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.