Jump to content
Nintendoga

Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS - Settle It In Smash!

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, jords said:

Look at hungrybox. Famous jiggly puff player in melee. One of the best. And he's struggling hard to get good results in smash 4 with jigglypuff. Why? Its not him, its jigglypuff. Not too long ago he finally gave up on her and decided to try learn a better character which he chose Mario.

You missed it Jords. He plays even higher tier now...........

 

EDIT: So I had to go confirm... turns out 4BR thinks Ness is worse, moving on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tiki said:

No there haven't been. The article literally says:

NDxFvWh.png

4BR is only one community dedicated to Smash. That was the first Tier list they made, not the first tier list ever. Also gonna spoil the rest of this response to prevent the large wall of text.

Spoiler
2 hours ago, Tiki said:

No, the objective facts and figures being his frame data and other such charateristics.

But what do the starts say about his level of performance?

2 hours ago, Tiki said:

That's good and all but Mewtwo's grab hitbox is kind of shit.

The low range balances out with effectiveness of the grabs themselves. And that's a problem that can be fixed by dashing since he's in the upper quartile of speed being the 12th fastest out of the current recorded 53 playable characters.

2 hours ago, Tiki said:

Tournaments are 2 stock/6 minutes instead of 2 stock/5. Tourneys also run a variety of legal stages, not just Final Destination with slightly different sides and a fresh lick o' paint.

Can't argue againist that. But does the difference in time and availability of legal stages directly impede his capabilities?

2 hours ago, Tiki said:

Level 9 CPUs don't count because they are nowhere near the level of an actual tournament or even semi-pro player, based on their AI alone.

2 hours ago, Tiki said:

That's Melee.

2 hours ago, Tiki said:

Level 9 CPUs don't count because they are nowhere near the level of an actual tournament or even semi-pro player, based on their AI alone.

Read the entirety of my responses. I've already addressed all of those notions.

2 hours ago, Tiki said:

I don't know what game you're thinking of but Sonic has never been #1 dude. Sheik has been 0572.png since 3DS release.

So, you've never heard of Eventhubs? According to them, regular rotating #1s were Sheik, Rosalina, Yoshi, Captain Falcon, Sonic, Pikachu, Ness, Roy, Greninja, and especially Diddy Kong for a long time before the first patch.

2 hours ago, Tiki said:

No they aren't (for this game)

Here's one of Japan's tier lists. One of the latest American ones are already in that Eventhubs link.

2 hours ago, Tiki said:

No it's not.

 

On 2/2/2016 at 7:56 AM, caseykz said:

Japanese players showing their stuff there.

Blame that guy. This lead me to believe that it was a Japanese tier list.

2 hours ago, Tiki said:

CPUs don't establish skill, playing against real people do,

Even if the person in question plays worse than a CPU? That functions under the notion that people are 100% better than CPUs. It's common sense that varying difficulties are meant to challenge different skill levels.

2 hours ago, Tiki said:

my nigga.

 

14 hours ago, Azul said:

Stop calling me that. I don't know ya'll like that :/ Plus it's generally never a good idea to talk to someone like that unless you know they're comfortable with it. For all you know, I could have been a social justice warrior ready to fire off about the importance of black progression yadda yadda yadda or just a super uptight black dude. Or maybe I just don't like being called that. Let's start with buddy first, m'kay?

Don't make me tell you a third time to stop calling me that.

1 hour ago, jords said:

So um I went back to see the tourney videos and nairo didn't win the tourney with Zelda. He faced players who are playing characters that don't even play these characters today.

This would be the results of another unspecific Google search. I typed "smash 4 tournament win Zelda" assuming that was enough to find the results of the finals.

But after doing a more detailed search, I can't find any actual videos of anyone playing as Zelda actually winning the tournaments but in nearly all of the first page results and in the recommended videos section, it shows that in spite of the low rank, some people have made it to the semifinals with Zelda. I did however find a forum that has a recording of over 22 1st place wins with Zelda. Granted, I didn't count the amount of times she hasn't placed in first but running through, I can still tell she hasn't placed in first more times than she has but the point still stands that being low tier isn't necessarily an indicator of how far you'll make it in a tourney or how well you'll do in one.

1 hour ago, Christmas Idol Luka said:

@Azul y'know, you can still play as and have fun as a character low on a tier list. No one's gonna look down on you or make fun of you if you play as Mewtwo. And this is coming from someone who mained Ganondorf in Brawl, and IIRC he was the lowest character on the tier list. c:

1) I don't make it a priority to care about what think about me. I'd play the most dispised character in the game if I'm comfortable with them. 2) You missed the part where I said:

14 hours ago, Azul said:

Since I've never played as Mew Two

and 3) the greater majority of my posts should be indicative that I don't agree with tier lists for the most part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Azul said:

4BR is only one community dedicated to Smash. That was the first Tier list they made, not the first tier list ever. Also gonna spoil the rest of this response to prevent the large wall of text.

  Reveal hidden contents

But what do the starts say about his level of performance?

The low range balances out with effectiveness of the grabs themselves. And that's a problem that can be fixed by dashing since he's in the upper quartile of speed being the 12th fastest out of the current recorded 53 playable characters.

Can't argue againist that. But does the difference in time and availability of legal stages directly impede his capabilities?

Read the entirety of my responses. I've already addressed all of those notions.

So, you've never heard of Eventhubs? According to them, regular rotating #1s were Sheik, Rosalina, Yoshi, Captain Falcon, Sonic, Pikachu, Ness, Roy, Greninja, and especially Diddy Kong for a long time before the first patch.

Here's one of Japan's tier lists. One of the latest American ones are already in that Eventhubs link.

 

Blame that guy. This lead me to believe that it was a Japanese tier list.

Even if the person in question plays worse than a CPU? That functions under the notion that people are 100% better than CPUs. It's common sense that varying difficulties are meant to challenge different skill levels.

 

Don't make me tell you a third time to stop calling me that.

This would be the results of another unspecific Google search. I typed "smash 4 tournament win Zelda" assuming that was enough to find the results of the finals.

But after doing a more detailed search, I can't find any actual videos of anyone playing as Zelda actually winning the tournaments but in nearly all of the first page results and in the recommended videos section, it shows that in spite of the low rank, some people have made it to the semifinals with Zelda. I did however find a forum that has a recording of over 22 1st place wins with Zelda. Granted, I didn't count the amount of times she hasn't placed in first but running through, I can still tell she hasn't placed in first more times than she has but the point still stands that being low tier isn't necessarily an indicator of how far you'll make it in a tourney or how well you'll do in one.

1) I don't make it a priority to care about what think about me. I'd play the most dispised character in the game if I'm comfortable with them. 2) You missed the part where I said:

and 3) the greater majority of my posts should be indicative that I don't agree with tier lists for the most part.

I said you CAN play as that character, I didn't assume you did since, well, I didn't miss that part.

I mean I don't see the big deal, if you don't like tier lists, ignore them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Azul said:

4BR is only one community dedicated to Smash. That was the first Tier list they made, not the first tier list ever. Also gonna spoil the rest of this response to prevent the large wall of text

However, SmashBoards is the biggest and most prevalent community dedicated to Smash, hence why everyone relevant in the West whether they be top players or scientists (as it were):

  • AeroLink
  • Amazing Ampharos
  • Dabuz
  • D1
  • False
  • Mr R
  • NAKAT
  • Nick Riddle
  • Seagull
  • Shaya
  • Trela

To name a few.

Quote

But what do the starts say about his level of performance?

Nothing, but his lack of tourney results along with aforementioned stats take effect on his placing in the tier list.

Quote

The low range balances out with effectiveness of the grabs themselves. And that's a problem that can be fixed by dashing since he's in the upper quartile of speed being the 12th fastest out of the current recorded 53 playable characters.

First of all, not sure where you got that data, but Mewtwo has the 21st fastest dash and the 28-30th fastest walk. Secondly, dash grabs are way more laggy than your standard grab so your argument falls apart.

Quote

Can't argue againist that. But does the difference in time and availability of legal stages directly impede his capabilities?

Yes, Mewtwo's worst stages to play on are stages like FD where he can't use platforms to his advantage.

Quote

So, you've never heard of Eventhubs? According to them, regular rotating #1s were Sheik, Rosalina, Yoshi, Captain Falcon, Sonic, Pikachu, Ness, Roy, Greninja, and especially Diddy Kong for a long time before the first patch.

EventHubs and other such tier lists (i.e. Reddit or the Community tier lists that SmashBoards had) are community and public opinion based and not down to a panel of specifically chosen people.

Quote

Even if the person in question plays worse than a CPU? That functions under the notion that people are 100% better than CPUs. It's common sense that varying difficulties are meant to challenge different skill levels

So you're telling me that you think that top players like ZeRo, Nairo, Dabuz, Komorikiri, 9B, Trela (the list is exhaustive) can't beat Level 9 CPUs? They aren't a good judge of skill because their AI is inherently flawed so that they can't lose. They can't replicate ATs like dash-dancing, jab resets and locks, pivot moves, perfect pivots and are thus inherently at a disadvantage. Unless, y'know, you just can't play the game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Christmas Idol Luka said:

I thought they were releasing in the afternoon, unless you're talking about UK times.

I'm assuming it's going live in all timezones at the same time, hence why we're getting it at like, 3am; similarly to how Splatoon rolls stuff out. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Christmas Idol Luka said:

I thought they were releasing in the afternoon, unless you're talking about UK times.

Nope, maintanence is the same time across the board (adjusted for timezones ofc).

Quote
  • 4:50 PM PT (Wednesday) – 6:30 PM PT (Wednesday)
  • 7:50 PM ET (Wednesday) – 9:30 PM ET(Wednesday)
  • 12:50 AM in the UK (Thursday) – 2:30 AM in the UK (Thursday)
  • 1:50 AM in Europe (Thursday) – 3:30 AM in Europe (Thursday)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most of the results are really old and a weekly. Like I said before, some people could actually win with the low tiers in their weeklies because people not learning the match up. Especially when the game was still fresh and new. I have a strong feeling those old Zelda players have already picked a different character that's more viable. Those that still play her don't get good results other than weeklies which I doubt they consistently get 1st. 

Most tournaments don't really count weeklies too.

We're still waiting to see her rise but almost everyone is convinced that she is just a terrible character. She can't beat her top tier self. Same with jiggly puff, same with samus, and ganondorf. Even ganon gets better results than them yet he's still a bad character.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Tiki said:

First of all, not sure where you got that data, but Mewtwo has the 21st fastest dash and the 28-30th fastest walk. Secondly, dash grabs are way more laggy than your standard grab so your argument falls apart.

Double checked the community patch notes and his dash and walk speed got buffed, so you right. (Idk why they thought the nigga needed it when that isn't his issue) Dash grabs are still laggy tho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Christmas Idol Luka said:

I mean I don't see the big deal, if you don't like tier lists, ignore them

They make for interesting discussion but I don't agree with them 100%.

21 minutes ago, Tiki said:

However, SmashBoards is the biggest and most prevalent community dedicated to Smash, hence why everyone relevant in the West whether they be top players or scientists (as it were)

That doesn't change that they're still only one out of many. Them being the biggest doesn't undermine the validty of other communities nor does that change that they still weren't the first ones to make a Smash 4 tier list. Their only the self-proclaimed official tier list makers.

 

21 minutes ago, Tiki said:

Nothing,

Then you've achieved nothing by sharing them.

21 minutes ago, Tiki said:

but his lack of tourney results along with aforementioned stats take effect on his placing in the tier list.

Yeah since tier lists are based on tourney rules but that isn't news.

21 minutes ago, Tiki said:

First of all, not sure where you got that data, but Mewtwo has the 21st fastest dash and the 28-30th fastest walk. Secondly, dash grabs are way more laggy than your standard grab so your argument falls apart.

Right here. Perhaps you should return the favor by sharing your resources as well.

21 minutes ago, Tiki said:

Yes, Mewtwo's worst stages to play on are stages like FD where he can't use platforms to his advantage.

Wouldn't that apply to every character?

21 minutes ago, Tiki said:

EventHubs and other such tier lists (i.e. Reddit or the Community tier lists that SmashBoards had) are community and public opinion based and not down to a panel of specifically chosen people.

The voting procedure for the Smash Boards is exactly the same as Event Hubs and subsequently all tier lists. They were all user based polls. It even says so right here:

Quote

Procedure

In late December 2015, 4BR members were asked to distribute all 56 released characters across 20 tiers, with no differentiation within the same tier. Voters could place gaps wherever they wanted and there were no restrictions on the amount of characters in the same group.

 With that in mind, that doesn't make 4BR any more of a valid tier list than Event Hubs or tier lists from other communities.

 

25 minutes ago, Tiki said:

So you're telling me that you think that top players like ZeRo, Nairo, Dabuz, Komorikiri, 9B, Trela (the list is exhaustive) can't beat Level 9 CPUs?

I want you to take out a big red pen and circle exactly where you got that from.

26 minutes ago, Tiki said:

They aren't a good judge of skill because their AI is inherently flawed so that they can't lose.

Before I elaborate, let me get this straight: You're telling me that the Sm4sh AI is designed not to lose. Is this correct?

 

28 minutes ago, Tiki said:

They can't replicate ATs like dash-dancing, jab resets and locks, pivot moves, perfect pivots and are thus inherently at a disadvantage.

Yes, CPUs have a fixed behavior. Their parameters only cover a certain number of actions, nor do they have the capacity for learning. Eventually, they stop becoming a challenge to good players because of their predictable patterns. However, the higher difficulty serves to hone your skills. I recommend at least being able to beat a level 9 CPU before going on For Glory. There are some scary mo fos out there and it shows a lack of keen judgement if you think you stack up againist the world without the proper preparation.

32 minutes ago, Tiki said:

Unless, y'know, you just can't play the game.

Is this a general statement or directed at me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Azul said:

That doesn't change that they're still only one out of many. Them being the biggest doesn't undermine the validty of other communities nor does that change that they still weren't the first ones to make a Smash 4 tier list. Their only the self-proclaimed official tier list makers.

Being the major one along with being the biggest resource for news, data, tourney data and ranking systems (aside from something like MIOM for Melee) leads to them being the best resource for a tier list and the closest thing to official we have.

Quote

Then you've achieved nothing by sharing them.

Ooh, I love being cut-off midsentence, and this isn't even a voice chat.

Quote

Right here. Perhaps you should return the favor by sharing your resources as well.

I missed where you clarified, it appears you missed where I clarified.

18 minutes ago, Tiki said:

Double checked the community patch notes and his dash and walk speed got buffed, so you right. (Idk why they thought the nigga needed it when that isn't his issue) Dash grabs are still laggy tho.

 

Quote

Wouldn't that apply to every character?

No because some characters like Sheik benefit from not having platforms as they fuck up shit like her fair chains.

Quote

The voting procedure for the Smash Boards is exactly the same as Event Hubs and subsequently all tier lists. They were all user based polls. It even says so right here:

With that in mind, that doesn't make 4BR any more of a valid tier list than Event Hubs or tier lists from other communities.

Except: letting everyone and their mother vote, or, letting a select group of panelists which are experts on the game vote.

Quote

Before I elaborate, let me get this straight: You're telling me that the Sm4sh AI is designed not to lose. Is this correct?

Whoops, this is why I need niggas to proofread, I meant can lose.

Quote

Yes, CPUs have a fixed behavior. Their parameters only cover a certain number of actions, nor do they have the capacity for learning. Eventually, they stop becoming a challenge to good players because of their predictable patterns. However, the higher difficulty serves to hone your skills. I recommend at least being able to beat a level 9 CPU before going on For Glory. There are some scary mo fos out there and it shows a lack of keen judgement if you think you stack up againist the world without the proper preparation.

But then using CPUs as a judge of skill still doesn't equate to being able to play the game proficiently due to exploits in their AI.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Tiki said:

Being the major one along with being the biggest resource for news, data, tourney data and ranking systems (aside from something like MIOM for Melee) leads to them being the best resource for a tier list and the closest thing to official we have.

What difference does it make where the information is coming from? They may be the most well known exclusively Smash community but they're far from the only ones from having exclusive information.

29 minutes ago, Tiki said:

Ooh, I love being cut-off midsentence, and this isn't even a voice chat.

I quoted that part of the sentence to make it clearer which part I was addressing. If it's got nothing to do with furthering your argument, it has not place here. If you're going resort to passive aggressive remarks again then I won't consider this a worthy conversation anymore.

29 minutes ago, Tiki said:

I missed where you clarified, it appears you missed where I clarified.

53 minutes ago, Tiki said:

Double checked the community patch notes and his dash and walk speed got buffed, so you right. (Idk why they thought the nigga needed it when that isn't his issue) Dash grabs are still laggy tho.

I was hoping for a link. You didn't specify which community you got it from. I'm assuming the Smash Boards?

29 minutes ago, Tiki said:

No because some characters like Sheik benefit from not having platforms as they fuck up shit like her fair chains.

Platforms and other obstacles are neutral factors. They aren't targeted at specific characters and can work for or againist anybody just by being there. The solution for Sheik would be to find a way to work around platforms. One could argue the inclusion of obstacles and whether or not you can overcome them could be another test of skill.

29 minutes ago, Tiki said:

Except: letting everyone and their mother vote, or, letting a select group of panelists which are experts on the game vote.

Both websites' tier lists were based on user ratings. I didn't read anything about a specifed group of players only being allowed to vote. That would decrease the accuracy of the results because that excludes the collective in put of the majorty of Smashers. Not only that but it devalues the experiences of other less skilled players.

29 minutes ago, Tiki said:

Whoops, this is why I need niggas to proofread, I meant can lose.

OK, because that set off so many red flags in my head.

29 minutes ago, Tiki said:

But then using CPUs as a judge of skill still doesn't equate to being able to play the game proficiently due to exploits in their AI.

Interesting note but that can also work againist you. If you have to rely soley on exploiting the inherit flaws as opposed adapting to their tactics, are you really learning how to play effectively? Relying on those flaws is a crutch because it in turn limits your range of capabilites to very specific scenarios that may not happen in a player battle. On the other hand, with each raising difficulty, your reflexes and planning abilities are tested more and more. I credit becoming an expert at Brawl to my collective sessions with the CPUs. And onces you've gotten adjusted to facing 3 level 9s at a time, you've already greatly increased the odds of your favor since that's not something many people can do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quote splitting when you're talking to someone is bad and you should feel bad.

6 hours ago, Azul said:

Interesting note but that can also work againist you. If you have to rely soley on exploiting the inherit flaws as opposed adapting to their tactics, are you really learning how to play effectively? Relying on those flaws is a crutch because it in turn limits your range of capabilites to very specific scenarios that may not happen in a player battle. On the other hand, with each raising difficulty, your reflexes and planning abilities are tested more and more. I credit becoming an expert at Brawl to my collective sessions with the CPUs. And onces you've gotten adjusted to facing 3 level 9s at a time, you've already greatly increased the odds of your favor since that's not something many people can do.

Ergo: You can't use CPUs as a accurate measure of player skill or character ability. Exploiting flaws and adapting to tactics are the exact same thing when talking about AI. Playing against hard AI is great if you don't have an alternative, but they're nothing compared to actual high level player, and certainly not a good place to figure out which characters are better when played at a high level. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First impressions on Corn

-His Counter hits like a truck, probably because it hits you upwards

-His recovery is sort of bad, like it has good Vertical Distance, but he does poorly when recovering from a really far hit without his second jump. Not as bad as Little Mac or Cloud, but still kind of eh

-Side B is really good for mixups and the like, and is also good for spacing.

-Side Smash is also really good for spacing, though the charging hitbox doesn't seem to work in the 3ds version, and the tip hit is real strong

-Dair against airborne enemies is really good because you can almost always follow up with another attack because you have little to no room to tech

-Doesn't have Combo throws :'(

-Doesn't have kill throws :''''''(

-Neutral B is a good spacer, and if the opponent manages to dodge the water blast, you can use the bite attack to KO if charged all the way. You can charge both the projectile, and the attack.

I like him/her a lot more than Bayonetta, even though Bayonetta has more options. Male Corrin's Win quotes are kind of lame though. Taunts are nice though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I've been trying out the DLC. Bayonetta's combos definitely have a learning curve to them, especially if you're like me and haven't played much of her series, but I think she can be an awesome character if used right. Case in point: the epic Master Core battle I had just now (I had the difficulty set at 6.0).

I was fighting Master Beast and it began to do its attack where it quickly flies into the background and then back toward the stage. Right as it lunged toward me, I activated Bayonetta's Witch Time and slowed it down. I didn't even know you could do that with bosses... it was so cool. Then, during the Master Shadow segment I managed to get some serious air combos in despite having struggled with her in the earlier matches.

Really, the whole battle had a bunch of just flying around and being flashy with the Bullet Arts, and it seemed so tight yet flowy at the same time. It felt kind of un-Smash-like, but in a good way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Remy said:

Quote splitting when you're talking to someone is bad and you should feel bad.

Why? All I'm doing is specifying which points I'm addressing.

1 hour ago, Remy said:

Ergo: You can't use CPUs as a accurate measure of player skill or character ability. Exploiting flaws and adapting to tactics are the exact same thing when talking about AI.

We're talking design flaws, not flaws in strategies.

1 hour ago, Remy said:

Playing against hard AI is great if you don't have an alternative, but they're nothing compared to actual high level player, and certainly not a good place to figure out which characters are better when played at a high level.

The CPUs, while they have their flaws, can still nonetheless engage the player's battle senses by forcing them to adapt to varying scenarios. The main reason I got good in Brawl was because I've mastered each level of difficulty under different circumstances. By the time I started going online, I was a regular winner. The fact that good players are noticeably better than level 9s and have greater capacity to learn also furthers my point: If you can't hold your own againist CPUs, than you're definately not going to hold up againist a good player. 

Also, I don't agree with the latter half of that sentence. Level 9s, while not as efficient as highly skilled players, aren't slouches. For one, the reason Mario is one of my mains is because I observed the potential for combo game potential fighting level 9s. CPUs aren't any less of a valid measure of skill just because they can't do as much as an actual player. By that logic, even beating a low level player, let's say one who taps out at level 6, is a greater achievement than conquering a level 8 CPU.

Basically, CPUs are to players as high school is to college.

In other news, I met my first Bayonetta on the first online match I went on. It was a team battle and the player wasn't very good but I'm glad I got to see the new moves. The time stopping thing was fun. I mean, when it wasn't being used on me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.