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Hey, Iizuka King! Why'd you take our Hedgehog Engine?

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I prefer to give better examples from Generations since it was the last game with Unleashed style. Like.. Seaside hill. You could explore A LOT. In SLW all you do is traverse some short levels placed over bottomless pit with really boring background.

 

 

 

You want generations examples? fine your funeral.

 

I reiterate, no you can't

 

rooftop-run-modern-sonic-6.jpg

 

 

(lol you walked right into another Rooftop Run screenshot)

 

Seaside Hill is pretty much a singular exception. The rest of Gens pretty much conforms to what Unleahsed did, with a slight more preference to some platforming and a few more alternative paths. Certainly nothing that can trump the exploration potential we've seen from 1 LW stage.

 

Either way its painfully obvious that the devs of Gens and Unleashed sunk a lot of time into building a playground Sonic can't touch. That is a problem this new art direction ducks - and benefits from.

 

No matter how you look at that, Unleashed stages ARE much bigger. Give SLW Sonic Unleashed Sonic speed and imagine how short those levels from SLW would become.

 

 

That's short sighted. Good luck trying to navigate some of those platforming sections at Unleashed speeds. Sonic would have to walk through some of that, which would indeed slow him down enough to make the level lengths comparable.

 

 

Don't misinterpret things. Unleashed (and Colors) had that concept of main acts and filler acts/missions. SLW doesn't seem to have that since there were 3 levels shown (WiiU) and they are all different looking with different kinds of gameplay. Thing is, while Windy Hill is at least OK, the other two are the epitomes of narrow corridor linear gameplay style: one in 2D and the other - 3D.

 

Are you seriously comparing Unleashed mini levels to SLW main ones?

 

 

 

I'm comparing mini-acts to mini-acts. And to be honest, LW is coming up favorably. Anyone else want to see the return of the side-scrolling spring stages from Colors? How about that 3 lap drift course from Unleahsed? Those crap fests were mini-acts that LW puts to shame.

 

BTW take a look at these. I didn't even upload Night Palace screens. These DO look beautiful.

 

 

First off, crutch-ing on the emulator is the first sign of defeat. Your Wii isn't gonna put out visuals like that. laugh.png

 

Second of all, they still range the gambit from bland to OK. They are still pretty washed out. Night Palace was the only exceptionally stunning aesthetic that game has to offer

Edited by Sega DogTagz

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Have you guys payed attention to the gameplay from IGN? The grass moves very fluently and makes the world seem alive and really good looking as a whole.

It might be a bit hard to see, but it's there.

On the other hand, the grass in Green Hill zone is just more of a flat plain surface.

Edited by PSI Tornado

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That's short sighted. Good luck trying to navigate some of those platforming sections at Unleashed speeds. Sonic would have to walk through some of that, which would indeed slow him down enough to make the level lengths comparable.

What platforming? That bee hive level has no platforming whatsoever. First of all, I'm comparing that level with Unleashed because they seem to have the same kind of gameplay except:

 - SLW is even more linear, repetitive, much slower, shorter and boring than Unleashed. There is literally nothing else to do other than run on a straight line (there are no turns in the level either), dodge some shit and kill enemies bu holding a button. Check out my previous posts.

 

 

This whole Next Gen = über realistic and detailed so far you can see the individual soil particles is along the same lines of cartoony = kiddy or mature = dark/serious

They could've just make the Generations style a bit more graphically advanced - that's all I'm asking for. I don't want stages as realistic as Soleana town. And yeah, I thought you guys loved the middle ground between realistic and cartoony in Unleashed/Colors/Generations.

 

I wouldn't call the visuals killed, but I can somewhat see what he's saying. Each of the games you mention had an increase in graphical power (despite whatever tradeoffs may have been made to acheive that result), whereas this new game seems like a slight step backwards

Yes, that is exactly what I see.

Either way its painfully obvious that the devs of Gens and Unleashed sunk a lot of time into building a playground Sonic can't touch. That is a problem this new art direction ducks - and benefits from.

Nope. I will bring that bee hive level as an example again. There is NOTHING to do. You cannot touch any playground (which is not eye-candy), that's for sure. There were 3 levels shown (WiiU) and only one has something that I can call exploration possibility. The other two are much worse than most of what I saw In Unleashed and Colors.

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What platforming? That bee hive level has no platforming whatsoever. First of all, I'm comparing that level with Unleashed because they seem to have the same kind of gameplay except:

 - SLW is even more linear, repetitive, much slower, shorter and boring than Unleashed. There is literally nothing else to do other than run on a straight line (there are no turns in the level either), dodge some shit and kill enemies bu holding a button. Check out my previous posts.

It's funny, because what you're describing is mostly how I'd describe Unleashed, albeit faster. The branching paths in those games barely offered much in the way of exploration, and were designed as shortcuts to shave off a few seconds- which was how long they lasted. 

 

I did check out your previous posts, though and you kinda said something that struck me as hypocritical.

Are you seriously comparing Unleashed mini levels to SLW main ones?

So people aren't allowed to compare the Unleashed mini-acts to Lost World levels, but you're allowed to look at an isolated level from Lost World, and measure it up to Unleashed as a full product?

 

And yeah, I thought you guys loved the middle ground between realistic and cartoony in Unleashed/Colors/Generations.

Most of us did. And I'm willing to bet that most of us still do. But guess what? We like this too. We're dealing with a different game with a different premise. setting and style. It only makes sense that the art direction would be different. Plus, it's got 60fps, which means it'll be much smoother looking than the console versions of Generations or Unleashed. I think that's important for an action game.

 

You're free to not like it, but you've basically been hammering at the same points, over and over again. We get your personal preference, but please stop acting like one is objectively inferior to the other, or that this really goes any deeper than you having different taste.

Edited by Solly

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So people aren't allowed to compare the Unleashed mini-acts to Lost World levels, but you're allowed to look at an isolated level from Lost World, and measure it up to Unleashed as a full product?

What's so hypocritical about me comparing two full levels? They are both finished.

Plus, it's got 60fps, which means it'll be much smoother looking than the console versions of Generations or Unleashed. I think that's important for an action game.

It's been repeated in this topic several times that they could've likeli achieved 60 fps without sacrificing anything.

 

You're free to not like it, but you've basically been hammering at the same points, over and over again. We get your personal preference, but please stop acting like one is objectively inferior to the other, or that this really goes any deeper than you having different taste.

EXCUSE ME. I was trying my best to keep this discussion civil and polite. What did I do wrong THIS time? You know, I can say the same thing about you repeating how the game can now run at 60 FPS. We get it. It does. But it's not solely because of this new oversimplified art style, OK? You may like it all you want but saying this art style helps the game itself perform better is quite an exaggeration.

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What's so hypocritical about me comparing two full levels? They are both finished..

The problem is that the Beehive auto-run level, something that very well could be a mini-act or one-off considering the amount of level variety we've seen, is being compared to Unleashed's gameplay when it shouldn't. It's not as if the core gameplay is designed around these stages- they're clearly different in play style and function than the other levels we saw. Why can you compare Unleashed's main levels to a possible mini-act or at least a gimmick level when you yourself said we shouldn't be comparing SLW's main levels to Unleashed's mini-acts?

 

It's been repeated in this topic several times that they could've likeli achieved 60 fps without sacrificing anything.

On the hardware? Yes, of course, but doing this made it easier. Not to mention the other 60 fps games it was compared to were Nintendo games- they're going to know how to get more out of the hardware than their third party developers- Bayonetta 2 being the only exception I can think of. 

 

Call this an exaggeration, but Izuka himself said that it helped create a smoother experience. Again, it was more than possible to make a 60fps game with Uleashed's style, but we heard straight from the horse's mouth that it factored in. 

EDIT: Although it should be noted that, chances are, adapting the Unleashed style to this would have forced them to axe something else. They could achieve 60fps, but they may have had to opt for smaller set pieces or something. Mario Kart, for example, has no AA. 

 

EXCUSE ME. I was trying my best to keep this discussion civil and polite. What did I do wrong THIS time? 

I wouldn't say you were being uncivil, but I think you're being overly-assertive about your opinion, presenting them as facts to people who clearly don't agree with you. 

Edited by Solly

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I wouldn't say you were being uncivil, but I think you're being overly-assertive about your opinion, presenting them as facts to people who clearly don't agree with you.

I see. Well, I might get more emotional than needed. It's my favorite franchise we are talking about after all)

 

 

The problem is that the Beehive auto-run level, something that very well could be a mini-act or one-off considering the amount of level variety we've seen, is being compared to Unleashed's gameplay when it shouldn't.

Yes it should. Beehive level does have Unleashed gameplay albeit much slower and more linear with less to do overall.

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Yes it should. Beehive level does have Unleashed gameplay albeit much slower and more linear with less to do overall.

How so? Because you're constantly running forward and dodging stuff? Is that what defines Unleashed gameplay?

 

Because that definition is equally applicable to Sonic 06's Mach Speed sections, Sonic and the Secret Rings, and various special stages in the series, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who thinks all of those are the same thing. I'm not trying to patronize, I'd just like to understand. 

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How so? Because you're constantly running forward and dodging stuff? Is that what defines Unleashed gameplay?

 

Because that definition is equally applicable to Sonic 06's Mach Speed sections, Sonic and the Secret Rings, and various special stages in the series, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who thinks all of those are the same thing. I'm not trying to patronize, I'd just like to understand. 

Yes, at it's core you boost to win. However with all stupid linearity there is a lot more to do in Unleashed.

You do realize that Unleashed gameplay evolved (aside from Sonic rush, obviously) from Secret rings which evolved from mach speed sections of 06, right? So, following this logic, mach speed section levels should be the most simplistic ones with less to do than in later games and that's how it is. I'd say, 06 mach speed sections are looking awesome (and run at 60 fps btw) and are really fast. If there would be no glitches and decent controls, I'd say they are a much better experience than that beehive level, which looks like dumbed down version of even the very first levels of their kind - mach speed sections. Being glitch-free is the only advantage it has.

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I thought this thread was supposed to be about the new art style, and why it supposedly sucks. Why are we arguing about gameplay between two different games?

Edited by Komodin

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I thought this thread was supposed to be about the new art style, and why it supposedly sucks. Why are we arguing about gameplay between two different games?

I think its because it apparently factors into the visuals. At least according to those who are involved in this argument. I personally don't see it.

That having been said, the stages we've seen so far in Lost World, look achingly empty. Suspended-in-air is a visual design I don't attribute with Sonic, so I don't like it much. That having been said, it looks OK, just as long as this style doesn't continue past this game.

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I wouldn't be surprised if this is a kind of test game, like what Colours was in a sense; Sega are trying out some new ideas in a less risky fashion and seeing how it pans out. They might adapt what does work into later games if they choose to keep this style.

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I do prefer the old art style. The beautifully detailed environments in Sonic Colours is what really brought the game to life for me personally. At the same time, I welcome the new art style. We have only seen a few stages, and the new art style could be just as beautiful but perhaps in a more subtle way.

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I personally don't mind the more 'visually simple' art style. It's very neat in its own right. It may not be as 'impressive' as the last three games, but I really don't give a damn, it looks great on its own merits, and that's fine. The way they're going about it with this game actually does offer some advantages, aside from being easier to achieve a better framerate with, it's easier to make due to not needing to create ridiculous setpieces that are basically "look, don't touch" like the last three games, much cheaper to produce as well in theory (we need more 'AAA' games that don't require ridiculous budgets to make), and the game sets its own visual identity as well.

 

Honestly, I'd rather have more content than pretty setpieces that I can't explore on my own terms.

Edited by Shirou Emiya

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Yes it should. Beehive level does have Unleashed gameplay albeit much slower and more linear with less to do overall.

 What more do you expect from an auto-run level!? The main objective is to run down the trees and take the fastest path down the honeycomb hallways. You make it sound as though a level where the objective is to keep moving, should have huge massive masses of land to explore. Once again, you CAN'T compare two level types like that, just because the gameplay is similar.

Edited by Ben Tennyson

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Guh, gimmie a sec…

 

*rummages through brain*

 

Its been said a handful of times in a different shape and form. I think Iizuka said it best in this interview with NintendoWorldRepot…

 

 

This is something we should be able to take at face value. They started development on Lost World before they even knew about the WiiU. And yet here we are at E3 with touch screen capabilities, Remote play capabilities, second screen intergration and the game up and running on the new console.

 

There is no question in my mind that at some point, the dev team would have had to tear down what they were working on, port it over, and then spend time adding in all this WiiU specific functionality. Its not just a switch you can hit. That takes time and effort.

 

 

That quote makes it sound to me as though the second screen functionality was in mind before they knew about the Wii U, not that it had been added later, giving the impression that this game started life as a 3DS game which actually makes this game's lackluster visuals make a lot more sense after a fashion.  The removal of 3D backgrounds and the simpler lighting style make sense on the 3DS because, let's not mince words, that thing was obsolete when it came out.  Of course I do have my doubts: Thus far the touch screen features seem tacked on to control things that previously but then how often were touch screen inputs core to previous handheld Sonic games?  Be interesting to know the real story here.  I imagine it has more to do with Sonic games selling well on Nintendo hardware.  How long has this game been in development that Sega didn't know about the WiiU?  Is it too much to assume that Sega knew of the WiiU since its release date?  

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I'f your not a fan of the beehive level then at least its only ONE level. The other levels are non-automated by the looks of things, (There maybe 2 or 3 more automated running levels)..

I can see why people would wan't the graphical style from Unleashed/Generations back, i agree it does look gorgeous, But I think SEGA is trying to make a style that reminisces on the classics and the adventure series a little. Personally for me, this cartoony style screams SA1+Xtreme.

I think the problem with Unleashed/Generations is that there was some gorgeous graphics and areas but because of the on-rails nature of the game you couldn't go and free roam and explore the world fully and see all of its potential. It seems with Lost World there is a lot more freedom and I'd rather have simpler graphics and be able to explore the whole level.

 

I think we should let Sonic get back onto his feet with this game and let SEGA concentrate on exploration and level designs, Then look at better graphics later down the line.

I'm happy that Sonic is finally starting to get good again, It's been a long road since Sonic 06. I think all the games from then up to now have slowly been letting Sonic find himself again and remember why we loved him so much, and we must remember that massive changes NEVER end well.

So just let Sonic take footsteps on the road to recovery from game to game and we'll have him back in no time.

Edited by StereoPix3l

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I wish we could go back to the beautiful art style and lighting engine of Unleashed, too. Especially in a slower paced Sonic game like this, we deserve the best graphics possible. In addition, I think Sonic's figure 8 running animation looks very awkward in 3d. Even if he's a cartoony character, Sonic seems to fit better in detailed environments.

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