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Lost Potential (and filling it)


Chaos Warp
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(Note, the reason I'm mostly ignoring Lost World in this topic is because it's not out yet and we don't really know how it's gonna turn out)

 

Now I'd like to start this off by saying that I do love Sonic, but I believe, since SA1, Sonic has been a "not for everyone" franchise where there's a lot of flaws but, at least where the good games are concerned, still very unique awesome fun (but of course with all the flaws it's obviously not for everyone). But shouldn't Sonic be more then that? The classic games I honestly feel are the only truly stellar games in the franchise that don't fall into the "not for everyone" category. I'm going to talk about 3 ways I feel Sonic can be made into something stellar again, something to rival the likes of Mario Galaxy as opposed to being "just good". 

 

Gameplay/Depth

In terms of gameplay, the Sonic series has had a rough track record. Some 3d gameplay has been good, some has been meh, and some has outright sucked. I feel the main problem with 3d Sonic gameplay is that it lacks depth. The Boost trilogy is where this is most apparent, where the gameplay, even when the levels and controls are tweaked for more platforming in Colours and especially Generations, is very oriented towards speedrunning and quite limited. I mean it's super fun and I definitely commend Generations especially for having tons of platforming and alternate paths, but the paths are still too rigid/defined and the platforming still too basic. The focus is still too much on flash over substance. Even the likes of SA1 is not much better. While I feel that game has less restrictive level design and a better paced Sonic, there's still not as much depth as there could be, still too many dashpad sections where you just watch Sonic run and the gameplay is also held back by technical flaws in that game.

 

What I personally think needs to happen is something with Lost World's parkour engine+some sort of drift move for high speed turning+SA1's base physics (but with turning arcs as you go faster) but with proper rolling physics and a more open environment with paths, but less defined ones and lots and lots of slopes (and slope related-platforming). Kind of the classic games in 3d+some modern ideas, if you will. This way it's better, and other playable characters can be more easily worked into it. Of course this is nowhere near the only way to make 3d Sonic gameplay better, this is just only but one example and if you guys have some I'm very willing and interested to hear them.  

 

As a final note: I would talk about 2d but I don't feel the need because we've already got a amazing formula laid down by the classic games. Just expand upon that, give Sonic a wall jump or something, add extra playable characters and the like, etc etc. Just make sure the level design is as balanced (in terms of speed VS platforming VS exploration) as Sonic 3 and Knux. 

 

Story

Now before the recent games I feel Sonic games had some decent narratives, especially the storybook games, Unleashed and the SA's, (and I really enjoyed the narratives of these games) but they could be much better. For an general idea, create a tone similar to SA1's or Unleashed (or SA2 for an unusually serious game, but not for every game), and make it so the characters are actually emotionally conflicted and have flaws. Tell a story that emotionally effects every character in it and each one has a legit motivation for their actions. Make these emotions have a long-lasting impact on the story. Sonic in particular should be able to feel threatened but still be himself, and actually play out some flaws of his more. The "flaws" thing also applies for all other characters. Speaking of them, make them have a part in story events as well, and their feelings and emotions should matter to the plot too. Eggman should keep his bombtastic and hilarious nature, but at the same time feel like a legitimate challenge and threat, contesting Sonic and co through the entire story and not leaving a period where a bunch of nothing is happening (this should apply to any other main villains if there ever is any). It's okay for there to be gags, obviously but they should not be the driving force of the plot, and they should not treat their audiences like dumbasses. 

 

So in short, take what we had in the Adventure games and add more character flaws, emotional depth, and a more threatening main villain. 

 

Universe/Canon/Mythos

Over the years Sonic has had a very inconsistent universe/art style. We've went from the colourful nature of the classics, to the realism of SA2, to the classic-like nature of heroes, back to realism for Shadow and 06, cartoony realism for Unleashed, surreal-ness for Colours and finally a mish-mash of everything blended with the Unleashed style for Generations. The series has not have a consistent set of mythos either.

 

I think that the artstyle should be like Unleashed, but more colourful like the classics. The humanized areas should be just as bright and colourful as the more nature-y areas, so it all fits together in one awesome artstyle. Of course some graphical detail should be sacrificed for running at 60 frames per second if the game is running on a weaker console such as the Wii-U as opposed to the PS4 or Xboned. 

 

The art style should stay consistent for the sake of keeping the universe consistent, but there should also be extra sets of mythos. Expand on the Chaos Emeralds and what they do, the Master Emerald's role in controlling them, expand on G.UN's role in the universe, etc etc. I honestly don't have as much to say on this, but short and sweet: keep the art style consistent, and keep mythos consistent between games and try to use the plots of games to expand on them little by little. 

 

So, in conclusion, I love Sonic games, especially the likes of SA1 and Sonic Colours and Generations, but they could be much better. I honestly just want Sonic to be legitimately awesome again. I want to be able to say that he stands among the best of platformers like in the classic days. Of course my ideas are not the only way to do it, they are just one guy's ideas, but you get the point. 

 

tl;dr: I love Sonic but as of now the series is kinda scrambled and could be much better.

 

Whew! That was a long one, felt good to get that out. Thoughts? Discuss!

Edited by Chaos Warp
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SenEDDtor Missile

Aside from me not really caring as much about the gameplay thing, since I can usually find some way to enjoy that, this is something I generally agree with. However, I'm frankly convinced that most of these things aside from gameplay will be unlikely to happen any time soon. Sonic has a track record of flawed games which, as you said, are not for everyone, and it also doesn't help that the worst of the lot has caused Sonic to become a laughingstock, and while things are looking up for Sonic, I also personally feel things have also come to a standstill in certain places.

 

The competence of Sonic Team, DIMPS, and SEGA aside, there's also this feeling I get that people on all ends of the spectrum regarding Sonic are simply too afraid to fail again, so they deliberately limit what he is allowed to do, which is all well and good when you want to be more focused, but the problem I see here is that they are locked into this fearful state, thus making the limits increasingly restrictive, and thus steadily creating this massive gap that makes people who DO want to see Sonic go beyond the current boundaries disillusioned about ever getting something they want, especially if what they want isn't as harmful to Sonic as the people in the other groups make them out to be.

 

TL;DR; TC (Too confusing): Restrictions meant to help Sonic be more focused are now being overused and clung onto like mosquitoes to flypaper and thus preventing Sonic from being so much more IMO.

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TL;DR; TC (Too confusing): Restrictions meant to help Sonic be more focused are now being overused and clung onto like mosquitoes to flypaper and thus preventing Sonic from being so much more IMO.

 

I agree in some ways, on one had I understand why they are playing so safe (trying to rebuild reputation and all that, bad finances), but on the other hand it does limit the franchise in a lot of ways. 

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Great topic :)

 

To answer you question(s), for gameplay I would take the classics and the core gameplay of the parkor/Galaxy-esc gameplay that Lost World uses and combine that with open level design filled with multiple paths (with is exactly with Lost World is doing). 

 

For Story, all they have to do is blend the Color's humor/sarcastic humor and blend it with the story telling mechanics that Sonic 3 & Knuckles used, to tell interactive and enjoyable tales.  Maybe Sonic Team could also take that approach but have be open ended, with Sonic having different dialog trees, with it leading into who he works with in a partner mechanic similar to Advance 3 or something.

 

As for anything else, I just think Sega/Sonic Team should not play it safe and do what THEY want to do with the series.  Yes they fucked up a number of time as shown with tittles like Sonic 06 and Shadow, but the games they experimented with have the most, I guess soul to them.  Secret Rings, Black Knight and Sonic Unleashed come to mind as those games had a few flaws to them but had a lot of interesting ideas and it felt like Sonic Team had fun making the games; you could tell the charm coming out of the NPC's from Unleashed hubs or the effort that went to making each location in the game look like its respective country/state and even the strong stories from the Storybook tittles alongside their interesting mechanics and ideas despite flawed execution.  I feel that Sonic Team needs to take this approach and have high quality attached to it, so that people can respect and be amazed by their interesting ideas rather than calling it missed potential.

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I think part of the problem may be over-engineering. Sometimes while playing Generations, I got the impression that Sonic Team were trying too hard to do too much. Nothing seemed like it came out fluidly, it felt like they were constantly tinkering, adding little bits here and little bits there. I mean, I don't consider game design all to different to art (painting, music etc.), sometimes when I try too hard to draw a picture, it comes out worse than when I do a random doodle; keep fiddling around with minor things and lose the bigger picture.

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As much as I like how Lost World looks, I get the feeling that the series is beginning to lose its identity. For me, Sonic is about breaking the norms and setting his own standards and not giving two shits what anyone thought of it. This was exemplified in his aggressive marketing towards being the "Anti-Mario" Sonic was edgy, cool, and did things vastly different for its time. Nowadays, it just feels like Sonic is starting to become like every other cookie-cutter platformer on the market. 

 

I like Lost World's artstyle, but I can understand why people are upset at the inspiration from Mario considering how Sonic used do everything to not be like Mario.

 

 

For me, I want the series to be able to stand out again, I want it to have people look at it with awe and amazement for its innovation and not get praised for borrowing from another franchise.

 

 

The story is stupidly paper thin, and yet they're still trying to give Sonic & Co some type of depth. Either go big and make an ambitious plot or don't waste our time tip toeing with this simple shit and just cut plot altogether.

 

 

The gameplay is good, and something I associate with Sonic; using his fast movement to transverse the environment.

 

 

Hopefully in the future, some new life can come into Sonic Team and the games can be really ambitious again.

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With Lost World changing up things, it's difficult to argue about unfulfilled potential on a gameplay front because they have something with a good potential for depth, and it's also not looking to be a one-time occurrence. The most I can reasonably hope for is that they don't puss out on the difficulty like they did the last two times, because nothing stagnates a game faster than the feeling that you're not being demanded to adapt and learn over time. I'm frightened this will be the case anyway, mainly because difficulty isn't really an oft-mentioned concern about the new games so I have no reasonable expectation that they would've changed it, and because the ever-stagnant Wisps are back virtually unchanged. Hoping for the best but expecting the worst.

But on a narrative front, my reiterated solution can be summed up as this: stop treating the cast like Looney Tunes and start treating them like the super heroes they actually are. The current direction of writing eschews the ability for the games to achieve some sort of emotional sincerity and high-stakes situations by the very lackadaisical atmosphere everyone is forced to conform under. Literally, Sonic and Tails have stopped giving a damn about facing Eggman. It was the running gag throughout Colors and it was drug into Generations in whatever pre-climatic interactions they had with him. Eggman himself doesn't give as much of a damn as he used to either, what with basically sending off others to do his bidding against the heroes while he sits around arguing with the very lackeys he programmed in the first place. With everyone's devil-may-care attitude- and gamers' positive response to it- it's no wonder the storytelling and characterization have continued to be paltry.

We need more active characters, plain and simple. Eggman should be at the front lines as much as possible like he used to be, and Sonic and co. should react and act accordingly. Subsequently, give me a reason I'm playing a stage. Maybe I'm chasing something, or maybe someone's in trouble, or maybe a secondary plot is under way and my character wants to check it out. A little context goes a long way. This all doesn't mean throwing away any comedy and lighthearted moments altogether either. In fact, there isn't a 3D Sonic game that's actually done this. Heck, the whole Egg Carrier joke between Sonic and Tails was funnier than anything in Colors or Gens, and they did it with little dialogue in an overall narrative I could actually bother getting invested in. Striking a balance is not an all-or-nothing deal.

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As much as I like how Lost World looks, I get the feeling that the series is beginning to lose its identity.

Beginning? I think the series lost track of itself ages ago. Like, Heroes-ish, if not in the gap before SA. It's been stumbling forward trying to figure itself out but nothing's stuck.

Honestly I've largely lost hope of seeing anything truly great out of the series, because it seems like there's no one in a position of control who's got a clear vision of what Sonic should be.

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Beginning? I think the series lost track of itself ages ago. Like, Heroes-ish, if not in the gap before SA. It's been stumbling forward trying to figure itself out but nothing's stuck.

Honestly I've largely lost hope of seeing anything truly great out of the series, because it seems like there's no one in a position of control who's got a clear vision of what Sonic should be.

 

Shit, this is true. Series has been struggling to find an identity since it gave Shadow a gun.

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SenEDDtor Missile

Shit, this is true. Series has been struggling to find an identity since it gave Shadow a gun.

Mildly ironic that losing your identity when you are a shooter decreases your chances of success considerably, yet losing your identity as Sonic seems to do the opposite.

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Honestly I've largely lost hope of seeing anything truly great out of the series, because it seems like there's no one in a position of control who's got a clear vision of what Sonic should be.

 

 

Shit, this is true. Series has been struggling to find an identity since it gave Shadow a gun.

 

 

 

Mildly ironic that losing your identity when you are a shooter decreases your chances of success considerably, yet losing your identity as Sonic seems to do the opposite.
 

 

 

So am I the only one who noticed that they've had some consistency since Unleashed? Like really? Am I? Or is it just me here?

 

SA1 - 06 had the issue of never nailing down a style for Sonic at all. Hell, none of these games ever had a consistent fucking MODEL for Sonic or the other characters, much less art style, general feel, etc. 

 

So Unleashed comes along and we get pixar art style, Sonic finally has an acceptable clean looking model (and it's the same one that's being used to this day) and the tone is generally light hearted (again, judging from Lost World this will continue), so im not seeing how terribly "lost" Sonic is when it seems the creators finally have their vision of him pretty damn well. 

 

Gameplay was the same since Unleashed due to good critical reception, but mediocre fan reception. The result is a change that isn't to drastic but does improve on what people had issue with in the past with Lost World, which is what I thought people wanted. 

 

I dunno, what people are complaining about here, 3D Sonic may have been directionless in the past, but now? Not really, no.

Edited by Soniman
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So am I the only one who noticed that they've had some consistency since Unleashed? Like really? Am I? Or is it just me here?

 

SA1 - 06 had the issue of never nailing down a style for Sonic at all. Hell, none of these games ever had a consistent fucking MODEL for Sonic or the other characters, much less art style, general feel, etc. 

 

So Unleashed comes along and we get pixar art style, Sonic finally has an acceptable clean looking model (and it's the same one that's being used to this day) and the tone is generally light hearted (again, judging from Lost World this will continue), so im not seeing how terribly "lost" Sonic is when it seems the creators finally have their vision of him pretty damn well. 

 

Gameplay was the same since Unleashed due to good critical reception, but mediocre fan reception. The result is a change that isn't to drastic but does improve on what people had issue with in the past with Lost World, which is what I thought people wanted. 

 

I dunno, what people are complaining about here, 3D Sonic may have been directionless in the past, but now? Not really, no.

 

You're right, it's not directionless anymore.

 

I still think said direction could be much better though. 

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To what extent are we concerned with the series having an identity? Are we talking about merely recurring conflicts and iconography but with room for different interpretation, or are we talking about really cementing the series' universe as being one and only one thing?

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SenEDDtor Missile

TBH, I just don't like the way they're HANDLING the execution of their new direction, not the actual direction itself. They've always seem to have a habit of blindly listening to people with relatively little rhyme or reason, and when they do take feedback with rhyme and reason, they tend to do so in the most extreme and often times clumsiest manner possible. It often feels like they have no sense of compromise, just extreme safeness or extreme risk.

Edited by 743-E.D. Missile
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Mildly ironic that losing your identity when you are a shooter decreases your chances of success considerably, yet losing your identity as Sonic seems to do the opposite.

 

Because people would rather Sonic take influence from Mario than try to do his own thing. Then again, whenever Sonic Team did its own thing, it tended to suck.

 

 

So am I the only one who noticed that they've had some consistency since Unleashed? Like really? Am I? Or is it just me here?

 

 

Its almost like I have a different opinion, but that's impossible :V

 

 

When I say the series is losing an identity, I mean in a sense that it doesn't seem to be trying to break out anymore and rather just trying to survive and go off on the coat tails of other series. Never did I say this was a bad thing but somewhat disheartening for a few people who grew up with games like Sonic Adventure.

 

The series doesn't have much of an identity because there are a million fans who have interpretations on what they feel Sonic should be, and its Sega's fault for making it that way. A few games with a consistent style isn't going to make the fans of the old games go away or stay quiet. There's already a shit storm from fans that Lost World isn't "epic" enough compared to the old games, etc. etc.  

 

I feel Sega just listens to whatever fans speak the loudest rather than do something beneficial for the series

To what extent are we concerned with the series having an identity? Are we talking about merely recurring conflicts and iconography but with room for different interpretation, or are we talking about really cementing the series' universe as being one and only one thing?

 

Its more of me feeling Sega should stop trying to pander so much to the criticism they get and just stick to their guns and do the best they can.

Edited by Azure Yakuzu
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MegasonicZX

Great topic smile.png

 

To answer you question(s), for gameplay I would take the classics and the core gameplay of the parkor/Galaxy-esc gameplay that Lost World uses and combine that with open level design filled with multiple paths (with is exactly with Lost World is doing). 

 

For Story, all they have to do is blend the Color's humor/sarcastic humor and blend it with the story telling mechanics that Sonic 3 & Knuckles used, to tell interactive and enjoyable tales.  Maybe Sonic Team could also take that approach but have be open ended, with Sonic having different dialog trees, with it leading into who he works with in a partner mechanic similar to Advance 3 or something.

 

As for anything else, I just think Sega/Sonic Team should not play it safe and do what THEY want to do with the series.  Yes they fucked up a number of time as shown with tittles like Sonic 06 and Shadow, but the games they experimented with have the most, I guess soul to them.  Secret Rings, Black Knight and Sonic Unleashed come to mind as those games had a few flaws to them but had a lot of interesting ideas and it felt like Sonic Team had fun making the games; you could tell the charm coming out of the NPC's from Unleashed hubs or the effort that went to making each location in the game look like its respective country/state and even the strong stories from the Storybook tittles alongside their interesting mechanics and ideas despite flawed execution.  I feel that Sonic Team needs to take this approach and have high quality attached to it, so that people can respect and be amazed by their interesting ideas rather than calling it missed potential.

Agreed with this, while the games before now had some problems to them they were very good ideas floating in there and its basically like sega is sitting on a gold mine but doesn't want to dig it all back up because they're too afraid that it might cave in on them and with all the years of experience they have now they could go back and experiment on all of this and make some really good sonic games out of it while also improving on old gameplay mechanics that were flawed and perfecting them.

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So am I the only one who noticed that they've had some consistency since Unleashed? Like really? Am I? Or is it just me here?

Well what's "some"?

Yeah his design/model's pretty much solidified, and they've turned away from the ultradark stories, but how consistent has it been? Unleashed had relatively realistic locations, a world full of humans, and a fairly in-depth story. With Colors and Generations, we lost all 3; the settings were a space amusement park and the white world/every previous Sonic game, we haven't seen any humans but Eggman, and the story's degraded down to nothing. Plus Lost World is now replacing the gameplay that tied those 3 together. From what we've seen I can't put Unleashed and Lost World together any more than I can put them with the previous 3D Sonics.

 

To what extent are we concerned with the series having an identity? Are we talking about merely recurring conflicts and iconography but with room for different interpretation, or are we talking about really cementing the series' universe as being one and only one thing?

A little of both, and maybe also neither? I dunno, when you look at a well-established series, you should have a good idea what you're in for...and with Sonic, I don't know anymore.

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TBH, I just don't like the way they're HANDLING the execution of their new direction, not the actual direction itself. They've always seem to have a habit of blindly listening to people with relatively little rhyme or reason, and when they do take feedback with rhyme and reason, they tend to do so in the most extreme and often times clumsiest manner possible. It often feels like they have no sense of compromise, just extreme safeness or extreme risk.

 

But I don't get it though, the line between safeness and risk is different for pretty much everyone so how can Sega possible find a happy medium that's impossible to obtain? The gameplay changed with Lost World and that's a pretty big risk, however they did keep the Wisps around, something critics like before and would stand to reason they would like again (falling back on a safe bet). But that's just how I see, and that's the main draw, you see differently, which is why it's hard for sega to go from RISK to SAFE and have the grand majority see when they make a compromise between the two.

 

 

 

The series doesn't have much of an identity because there are a million fans who have interpretations on what they feel Sonic should be, and its Sega's fault for making it that way. A few games with a consistent style isn't going to make the fans of the old games go away or stay quiet. There's already a shit storm from fans that Lost World isn't "epic" enough compared to the old games, etc. etc.  

 

Okay so, it sounds more like the series DOES have an identify, but the fans don't want to accept it and rather the series backtrack to the previous one they loved the most. :u

 

 

 

 

I feel Sega just listens to whatever fans speak the loudest rather than do something beneficial for the series

 

Point me to the fans who actively wanted a simpler graphical style and a Mario Galaxy-like aesthetic. Id say that was all Sega's call, and doing in for the favor of characters and stage assets that don't blend into the background and sweet ass 60fps sounds like a beneficial improvement to me.

 

And while we make joke of Sega "stealing our ideas" when they added that Parkour system, and run button, I believe that they implemented these things because they saw it would improve the games greatly rather than just "hey lets try this thing and see if it works out".

 

With Colors and Generations, we lost all 3; the settings were a space amusement park and the white world/every previous Sonic game,

 

That isn't "losing" consistency, that's just a change in setting. Mario Galaxy took place almost exclusively in space, I don't see much reason to assume that Mario's world will change in tone and style when he gets back there.

 

we haven't seen any humans but Eggman, and the story's degraded down to nothing.

Again, I attribute the missing humans more to that of setting rather than a loss in consistency and story is another beast entirely. Sonic stories have always ranged complex to simplistic from since conception. Again with the Mario comparisons, but Galaxy 1's story is more complex than any main line Mario we've had before or since, should we assume consistency as a whole was lost there?

 

Plus Lost World is now replacing the gameplay that tied those 3 together. From what we've seen I can't put Unleashed and Lost World together any more than I can put them with the previous 3D Sonics.

 

But we still have many things that tie it together like the 2D/3D system, the Wisps, and even high speed near boost speed sections where you switch from lane to lane, which was a common thing in the boost trilogy. This is why I don't buy into idea that Lost World is completely separated from those games and therefore all consistency is lost again.

Edited by Soniman
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SenEDDtor Missile

Agreed with this, while the games before now had some problems to them they were very good ideas floating in there and its basically like sega is sitting on a gold mine but doesn't want to dig it all back up because they're too afraid that it might cave in on them and with all the years of experience they have now they could go back and experiment on all of this and make some really good sonic games out of it while also improving on old gameplay mechanics that were flawed and perfecting them.

Too bad the modus operandi of certain groups who uses the label of *coughtruecough* "Sonic fan" for themselves in regards to something flawed is to crush it into the ground so it can never be used again while pounding their chest claiming how they know everything needed to save the franchise.

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow

To what extent are we concerned with the series having an identity? Are we talking about merely recurring conflicts and iconography but with room for different interpretation, or are we talking about really cementing the series' universe as being one and only one thing?

I happen to like the different interpretation of things a bit more than leaving the universe as one and only one thing. Archie Sonic comics during Flynn's run has been great on this in mixing and adapting elements from almost every other universe into one place allowing more room for newer ideas.

 

That said, there is a thing called going too far in either direction.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonîc
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Okay so, it sounds more like the series DOES have an identify, but the fans don't want to accept it and rather the series backtrack to the previous one they loved the most. :u

Yes, how dare people like the series for a different reason than you. I know that's not what you said but I don't like the derisive tone of this statement. Nobody is "wrong" because they voice their distaste for the way a certain series is headed.

There have been numerous complaints about how the plot and characters are being handled currently, and people have made extensive essays on the subject; so are those people also fans "who don't want to accept the series` current identity" too?

 

 

 

 

 

Point me to the fans who actively wanted a simpler graphical style and a Mario Galaxy-like aesthetic. Id say that was all Sega's call, and doing in for the favor of characters and stage assets that don't blend into the background and sweet ass 60fps sounds like a beneficial improvement to me.

Yes, and to other people its a degradation. What's your point?

 

And while we make joke of Sega "stealing our ideas" when they added that Parkour system, and run button, I believe that they implemented these things because they saw it would improve the games greatly rather than just "hey lets try this thing and see if it works out".

 

 Yes, and that is truly the only idea I feel they actually thought of themselves instead of just trying to please the fans. But in terms of artstyle, plot, aesthetics, and characters. Not so much.

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Yes, how dare people like the series for a different reason than you. I know that's not what you said but I don't like the derisive tone of this statement. Nobody is "wrong" because they voice their distaste for the way a certain series is headed.

 

Like you, said I never said that. I meant that everyone has their ideal outlook of what Sonic should be and so naturally they're going to have a problem with it when the series doesn't adhere to that. 

 

 

 There have been numerous complaints about how the plot and characters are being handled currently, and people have made extensive essays on the subject; so are those people also fans "who don't want to accept the series` current identity" too?

 

Wanting a better story and better characterization doesn't have anything to do with consistency, and it's more genuine improvement which is encouraged no matter what style the series takes.

 

Yes, and to other people its a degradation. What's your point?

That this just proves what ive been saying in that no one can actually have a clear cut definition of what's actually "beneficial" for the series because so many people have so many different ideas of what's the right path to take which is the result of Sega shitting the bed with consistency in the past by having so many tones, styles, etc etc that know one really knows anymore and you have fans of how SA1 did it, or SA2, or Heroes, or Shadow, or the Storybook games, or the Classics. So when they do try to nail down a set style quite a few people are gonna have an issue with it regardless of what it improves because it's not the one they prefer the most. Basically there's no "right" answer a lot of the time.

 

Yes, and that is truly the only idea I feel they actually thought of themselves instead of just trying to please the fans. But in terms of artstyle, plot, aesthetics, and characters. Not so much.

 

Now see, this statement leads me to think that the FANS (the critics I can believe but not the fans) actively wanted simpler graphics, or less story, and less characters in general, which I don't believe is the case.

Edited by Soniman
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I don't completely accept the current direction because for all the good it's done, it's fallen flat in the same amount of areas.

 

It isn't so much a 'progression' as it is 'Improving in some areas whilst nearly-completely forsaking others' and that is not progress as far as I'm concerned. I've said it a few times before; For every step Colours and Generations made forward, they took two steps backwards.

 

I don't like how the games have become such pedestrian affairs, getting shot of an elaborative experience with dimensional characters and an interesting story because Sonic Team seem to think that simplicity is the right way to go when ultimately, it's hindering what the games can be. If you're not Sonic, Tails or Eggman, you have no real focus at all. If you are Sonic, Tails or Eggman, you're being foisted into a single type of role and have had next to no room to spread out with your character because you're being shoehorned into 'comedic', 'informant' or 'Predominantly behind the scenes villain' roles. And it's such a shame because these characters have proven beforehand that they can be so much more than that.

 

SA made Tails wholly relevant and gave him some great character development and whilst Tails' non-inclination to sing the praises of Sonic's antics as is the way he took the bullet for Sonic is awesome, the story still doesn't utilize the character all that well.

 

The Storybook games proved you could get a whole plethora of traits out of Sonic believably without exaggerating any of them to fulfill the tone of those games' stories.

 

Eggman is accustomed to being very active regarding his plans. Just see the lengths he goes to in SA2 to make sure his aims are pulled off competently and without interference.

 

And the stories? What stories? You mean the string of jokes that masqueraded as a story throughout Colours, the story failing to explain multiple plot points or making them believable? Or the flimsy excuse for Generations' plot that completely fails to monopolize on the inherent potential available considering the previous 20 years of characters and material?

 

I wish that the level designs actually pushed the boat out and had some great set-pieces again and monopolized on gimmicks with huge potential. I always thought that far more could've been done with the Wisp forms especially cosidering the occasional flashes of brilliance in Colours' level design which facilitated emergent gameplay.

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Like you, said I never said that. I meant that everyone has their ideal outlook of what Sonic should be and so naturally they're going to have a problem with it when the series doesn't adhere to that. 

 

 

 

That this just proves what ive been saying in that no one can actually have a clear cut definition of what's actually "beneficial" for the series because so many people have so many different ideas of what's the right path to take which is the result of Sega shitting the bed with consistency in the past by having so many tones, styles, etc etc that know one really knows anymore and you have fans of how SA1 did it, or SA2, or Heroes, or Shadow, or the Storybook games, or the Classics. So when they do try to nail down a set style quite a few people are gonna have an issue with it regardless of what it improves because it's not the one they prefer the most. Basically there's no "right" answer a lot of the time.

So you just admitted that people aren't wrong when they voice their distaste for the series....so what was the point of even starting this argument in the first place?

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That isn't "losing" consistency, that's just a change in setting. Mario Galaxy took place almost exclusively in space, I don't see much reason to assume that Mario's world will change in tone and style when he gets back there.

It doesn't feel the same, to me. The Galaxies feel like "what outer space in Mario is like". It's not the same locations, but it's the same "world". I can believe that Mario could go from Peach's castle to Good Egg Galaxy, because there are enough familiar elements to link the games (also because...you literally do start at Peach's castle in Galaxy...which makes that sound kind of redundant, but I think it's also a good example of having a familiar element to "ground" the new stuff in the same world).

I don't get that feeling with Sonic. I don't get the feeling that, at the end of Colors, Sonic could then run off to Spagonia. I haven't been given any reason to trust in that.

And maybe you could say it's because we haven't really been back to Sonic's Earth, that we've jumped from one artificial setting to another in the time after Unleashed...but if you keep jumping between wildly different settings, you're not actually building a coherent world even if you throw in a justification for it.

Sonic stories have always ranged complex to simplistic from since conception.

Have they? I'd say the main series Genesis games are fairly similar, although progressively more complex (still not much tho'). And even if I agreed that would only prove that the series has been lost from the start.

Again with the Mario comparisons, but Galaxy 1's story is more complex than any main line Mario we've had before or since, should we assume consistency as a whole was lost there?

Galaxy may have the most in-depth story of the main series Marios, but there's still not a whole lot more there than the others. There's really only a handful of cutscenes in the entire game, especially if you discount Rosalina's backstory. Which is about the same as Sunshine, which didn't have much more than 64, which didn't have much more than SMW. There's not nearly as much of a change as there was from Unleashed's fully written story to Generations' "there was a story?".

But we still have many things that tie it together like the 2D/3D system, the Wisps, and even high speed near boost speed sections where you switch from lane to lane, which was a common thing in the boost trilogy. This is why I don't buy into idea that Lost World is completely separated from those games and therefore all consistency is lost again.

But you can look at '06 and Unleashed and see the homing attack, the slide, and the light dash shared between them. Drawing a few parallels doesn't make them the same thing, there is still a huge shift between the boost games and SLoW, and even if it's a necessary, beneficial shift, it's still making the series less consistent with itself.
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