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Lost Potential (and filling it)


Chaos Warp
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Yes, and that is truly the only idea I feel they actually thought of themselves instead of just trying to please the fans. But in terms of artstyle, plot, aesthetics, and characters. Not so much.

What about the Deadly Six? Considering how rabid vocal both a lot of really loud fans and critics are of characters that aren't Sonic and Eggman merely EXISTING, I'm actually impressed they're going to introduce some new characters (even if they are, most likely, one-off appearances) simply because they want to. Although, they might turn out to not have voices--I doubt it, I'm just covering bases here--in which case it won't really be as "risky". That'd be a real waste though, especially since they seem to have so much personality in their designs.

 

Personally, I think Sonic Team are potentially on the right track on most aspects, especially gameplay, but inevitably there's going to be people who won't like it. That goes for literally every series, not just Sonic, so I'm really not sure why people are so fussed about it.

 

The only thing I'm not expecting much of is the story. At most it might be better than Generations, but that's not saying much (why was there so little character interaction in a game that brought back characters we hadn't seen in the main series for years. why. WHY). I'm hoping to be wrong about that, but ... we'll see, I guess.

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So you just admitted that people aren't wrong when they voice their distaste for the series....so what was the point of even starting this argument in the first place?

....

 

Uhhh

 

If you want to ignore the main point, sure okay. You can just go with that.

 

However, let me just say that what one fan wants and what another fans wants are to completely different things. What constitutes for genuine objective improvement for the series? What can be seen as a right move by Sega is seen as a completely fucking wrong one for another group of fans. This is why I believe that Sega takes what they believe is the right move (that right move being the Parkour system) rather that outright listen to the fans wildly different ideas. No one is outwardly right or wonrg, but comprimise have to be made if we are two acknowledge any actual genuine improvement.

 

 

 

I don't get that feeling with Sonic. I don't get the feeling that, at the end of Colors, Sonic could then run off to Spagonia. I haven't been given any reason to trust in that.

 

During the Terminal Velcoity section you're given an estabishing shot of the planet, the planet's geography is EXACTLY like how it was in Unleashed, I think that's reason enough to believe that nothing's really changed much.

 

I agree that Sonic hasn't been back to the grounded world since and therefore gives people a reason to doubt (tho even then, Rooftop Run in Gens generally looks almost the same as it was in Unleashed which goes to show that nothing has changed drastically). But I think it's just to justify new rules and ideas to the games (you couldn't really get away with pulling off the Lost World type of level design in a more grounded "Unleashed" setting with cities and what not.

 

But you can look at '06 and Unleashed and see the homing attack, the slide, and the light dash shared between them. Drawing a few parallels doesn't make them the same thing, there is still a huge shift between the boost games and SLoW, and even if it's a necessary, beneficial shift, it's still making the series less consistent with itself. 

 

But things like the the HA and Light Dash has been shared with EVERY 3D Sonic game though, but things like the 2D/3D, the Wisps, and the lane switching has been pretty much EXCLUSIVELY shared with the Boost Trilogy and Lost World, which why I believe that there's till a good amount of consistent to be shared.

Edited by Soniman
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What about the Deadly Six? Considering how rabid vocal both a lot of really loud fans and critics are of characters that aren't Sonic and Eggman merely EXISTING, I'm actually impressed they're going to introduce some new characters (even if they are, most likely, one-off appearances) simply because they want to. Although, they might turn out to not have voices--I doubt it, I'm just covering bases here--in which case it won't really be as "risky". That'd be a real waste though, especially since they seem to have so much personality in their designs.

 

This is true...but you still have the fans of the other members of the recurring cast that are pissed that Sonic is the only playable character again, and that after Generations essentially demoted them to background objects, they're once again only focusing on the bare minimum of main characters.

 

Frankly, I prefer the storytelling style of the Adventure games to come back. I know people didn't care for the darker & edgier direction, or the alternate playstyles but every main character in those games had equal amounts of spotlight and development instead of the plot being "Sonic & and his useless Amazing Friends" But like you said, we don't know but after Colors & Generations, I'm not getting my hopes up that we'll see anything beyond what was in those games.

....

 

Uhhh

 

If you want to ignore the main point, sure okay. You can just go with that.

Your original point was pointing out that I was "wrong" when I said the series was losing its identity was it not?

Edited by Azure Yakuzu
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Yeah, one thing I really want to see story-wise in future games is characters being more proactive. I mean, I want most of the action to be actually playable just as much as the average gamer, but at least have Eggman do more shit! Everyone's hate-boners for SA2 aside, that game at LEAST had that, right? Right ...?

Edited by ElementofChaos
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Yeah, one thing I really want to see story-wise in future games is characters being more proactive. I mean, I want most of the action to be actually playable just as much as the average gamer, but at least have Eggman do more shit! Everyone's hate-boners for SA2 aside, that game at LEAST had that, right? Right ...?

 

 

Its funny too because Adventure 2 was for a long time considered "the last good Sonic game" before the Unleashed trilogy came about, and then everyone decided Adventure 2 sucked :V

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Your original point was pointing out that I was "wrong" when I said the series was losing its identity was it not?

 

 

I never said you were "wrong" I just said why I think otherwise. :u

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During the Terminal Velcoity section you're given an estabishing shot of the planet, the planet's geography is EXACTLY like how it was in Unleashed, I think that's reason enough to believe that nothing's really changed much.

Keeping the same continent layout doesn't say anything about specific locations or ground-level aesthetics. Plus we've got Generations and SLoW past that, and who knows what anything'll look like when they eventually go back.

(tho even then, Rooftop Run in Gens generally looks almost the same as it was in Unleashed which goes to show that nothing has changed drastically)

That doesn't mean anything, Generations pulls levels from all sorts of games, and Rooftop Run looks the same because it's on the same engine.

But I think it's just to justify new rules and ideas to the games (you couldn't really get away with pulling off the Lost World type of level design in a more grounded "Unleashed" setting with cities and what not.

If your concept is so far off your setting that you have to create a new one...that kinda points to a pretty significant inconsistency!

But things like the the HA and Light Dash has been shared with EVERY 3D Sonic game though, but things like the 2D/3D, the Wisps, and the lane switching has been pretty much EXCLUSIVELY shared with the Boost Trilogy and Lost World, which why I believe that there's till a good amount of consistent to be shared.

Yes they're exclusive to the only games to come out since they were introduced, same as the homing attack and light dash.
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Keeping the same continent layout doesn't say anything about specific locations or ground-level aesthetics. Plus we've got Generations and SLoW past that, and who knows what anything'll look like when they eventually go back.

 

Why shouldn't we assume it will be the same? Do we HAVE to constantly be reminded that it takes place in the same world rather than just being obviously implied? Id think the continent layout would be enough, since once again, Sonic games have NEVER bothered to have a consistent geography when it comes to the world at large until now. There's nothing to be gained from changing up the world yet again for no reason and not to mention this is the first time it's been received favorably.

 

 

 

If your concept is so far off your setting that you have to create a new one...that kinda points to a pretty significant inconsistency!

 

You mean exactly what Mario Galaxy did!? Wouldn't make much sense for Mario to be jumping to and fro spherical worlds in his native Mushroom kingdom, so he it's why he went to space in the first place. Having giant gravity tubes as your main gimmick wouldn't work in Unleashed settings so they went to a mysitcal "Lost World" to justify it. Do really need to have every single Sonic game just always take place in Unleashed-esque human cities/towns/villiages for consistency to be maintained?

Edited by Soniman
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So uh...what are we arguing at this point?

 

I have no idea. But I'm going to answer the questions of the OP, or at least try to, if that's okay. smile.png 

 

Gameplay

 

For the most part, personally I am not all too fussed about the overall gameplay in Sonic games, bar a few exceptions, as I think it is fine and fun overall. Sonic games originally made their mark and success in the gaming world with the combination of speed and platforming. Unfortunately SEGA/Sonic Team have deviated from this combination with various gimmicks over the years where they inhibit the gameplay on occasion as opposed to enhancing it, which some gimmicks have done as well. I'm not saying don't have any gimmicks in the games at all, but make sure they don't cause the gameplay to deviate away from what we know and love in regards to Sonic games with speed AND platforming, not one or the other. Having playable characters would be nice as that could add some variation to the gameplay as well as replayability. Also continue to have multiple paths to increase replayability as well. Overall I don't see much lost potential with gameplay, but if anything it would be nice to have more gameplay to experience as it is way too short, as fun as it usually is.

 

Story

 

Now as for stories in Sonic games, the lost potential is huge, unfortunately. I know that gameplay is the most important thing in a Sonic game but if a story is going to be told, it should be told correctly. I'm not saying the plot should be extravagant, deep long and drawn out, but it should have an actual plot, one that is substantial with a the basics: a beginning, a middle and an ending-with some balance with humor and seriousness among other things. This hasn't happened in a while in a Sonic game, only to have an incomplete story with plot holes, unanswered questions, and blown potential for character interaction among other offenses.

 

Speaking of character interaction, the other characters aside from Sonic, Tails and Dr. Eggman need to stop getting the shaft. I don't think that it is fair to have this massive cast of characters on board only for them not to do anything. They don't have to be playable (although I wouldn't mind this), but at least have them contribute something worthwhile to the series amongst the story. Standing there helpless and talking way too much isn't worthwhile. At least have Sonic interact with them and have his friends interact with each other. Also give them some emotional depth as well as some personality. Have Sonic's friends be an actual pillar of support to him as opposed to being chatty cheerleaders, actually and actively doing something. Each and every character outside of Sonic, Tails and Dr. Eggman has so much potential to contribute something positive to the series that keeps getting suppressed time and time again.

 

For the most part in Sonic games, characterization is something that I have always been big on and admired, especially with Sonic himself. Sonic is a character with a vivid personality with many qualities as well as flaws. Not only do I look forward to seeing Sonic's characterization within the stories, I would like to see characterization among the other characters as well like we did with Tails in Sonic Colors. If we can't get a decent and complete story at least give us some good, if not stellar characterization with Sonic and whoever else is in the game.

 

Universe/Canon/Mythos

 

I honestly don't have a problem with the inconsistent universe/art style. Despite it's differences between the past few Sonic games it looks amazing for the most part full of vivid detail and bright colors. I do agree about having consistent mythos being needed and having a more established canon in the series would be nice.

 

In the end, when it comes to lost potential in Sonic games, I really don't see it being prevalent aside from the story. Sure there is room for improvement in pretty much every aspect of the games but they aren't bad overall by any means.

Edited by Sonikku_Kiah
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The biggest missed opportunity to me is the characters.

 

Story in general is obviously a concern, but I'm specifically more fussed about character interaction and how the characters play off each other (which ties into plot, too, of course). It's why I was so happy about how Sonic and Tails interacted in Colours. I really want to see that expanded on, perhaps with character development, as well as the rest of the cast.

 

In fact, I remember an interesting discussion in some topic about the stuff we didn't like about characters we DO like, and how Sonic seems to be on the run so much that one could argue he neglects his friends. Seeing that touched upon in the games would be really interesting, I think.

 

Chronicles apparently did it but nobody cares about that game, so.

Edited by ElementofChaos
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Chronicles apparently did it but nobody cares about that game, so.

That's because it did it badly. 

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow

Its funny too because Adventure 2 was for a long time considered "the last good Sonic game" before the Unleashed trilogy came about, and then everyone decided Adventure 2 sucked :V

Gameplay-wise, it's a mixed bag. It chops down all the unnecessary parts in SA1, but it does a genre shift after each level. Not exactly the best move from SA1 where you could play that one style of play all the way through that character's playthrough with little-to-no interruptions. So it takes one step forward, and another step back. They also didn't fix some of the other issues in SA1 or in some cases made them worse, such as making the mech stages clunkier compared to Gamma's.

 

Storywise, it has it's problems and it's no masterpiece, but I'd say you have your head up your ass saying it sucks comparing it to anything other than SA1, Sonic 3&K, or (to a variable extent) Unleashed. And even then people like to bash it for being a dark game as a kneejerk reaction against anything dark, regardless of how much carefully handled it was compared to ShTH. These people apparently never heard of moderation, or don't care and just bash away.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonîc
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To be fair the. Series has bee losing its direction since SA1 or Unleashed depending on how you look at it.

The main problem is that different fans will say it has lost it's identity at different points depending on where they joined the franchise, the franchise has changed it's identity so many times since the classics run (of 4 games) that any fan until those that joined during Unleashed would have experienced multiple different directions.

You could say that the series lost its direction after Sonic 3&K since the classics were all the same gameplay and direction, SA1 lost one of the main mechanics of the classics, momentum based physics. It introduced Eggmans new design, chao, a more realistic world, the homing attack and a more complex story than 3&K.

However you could forgive SA1 as it was the first 3D outing whereby Unleashed would be where the series lost direction. Again a whole new play style and art direction plus the Werehog gimmick (as an addition to all the other changes) this was the second overhaul of the entire Sonic franchise. by this point people were used to the adventure style gameplay from SA1 - 06 as it was the main style of all of the games between.

06 would be where the franchise lost its direction in regards to story, trying to be far to complex and "dark" and "mature" not even Eggman was the main villain, or SEEMINGLY the main villain like in heroes, he was merely and annoyance in that game.

So really due to the many different era's, gameplay styles and story depth's the franchise could be seen as listing its direction from any number of games depending on the fan.

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Storywise, it has it's problems and it's no masterpiece, but I'd say you have your head up your ass saying it sucks comparing it to anything other than SA1, Sonic 3&K, or (to a variable extent) Unleashed. And even then people like to bash it for being a dark game as a kneejerk reaction against anything dark, regardless of how much carefully handled it was compared to ShTH. These people apparently never heard of moderation, or don't care and just bash away.

 

Yeah, I think that SA2's worked far better than most stories in the franchise, regardless of how people feel about what is appropriate and whether they feel that it had glaring plotholes or whatever. Most of the stories tend to only get one or two things right, whereas SA2 gave the majority of the cast decent characterisation and character development, it had a good balance of highs and lows, tied the levels together nicely and moved at a good pace most of the time. SA's did little better in those areas, if at all. A lot of SA2's narrative issues are down to a lack of refinement, but that's hardly surprising considering its age. I'd be hard-pressed to find much better in this franchise, which is shocking considering that 12 years have passed since then.

 

As for the others; so little happened between the opening and ending of Unleashed that it failed to keep my interest. No ups, no downs, just consistent and therefore dull. I think that S3&K is far too simple to draw a comparison with any of the 3D games. It doesn't leave much, eh...

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What gets me about the hate for SA2 is its seems to be arbitrary. How it goes from being one of the best to one of the worst is beyond me; yea you can say it aged badly but that didn't stop people from loving Unleashed despite aging similarly.

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I quite liked SA2 for a variety of reasons (although it is pretty boring for me to play through nowadays)

The levels give you an incentive or a reason to go through them, either escaping the island, finding shadows capsule or stopping the canon, you have a purpose and a reason to finish the level.

Eggman is active and tries to stop you throughout the story, similarly to the genesis games where he was at the end of every act he was ways trying to stop the heroes either personally or by other means.

Characterisation is pretty good and pretty much every character interacts ( rouge only speaks to Sonic 1 or 2 lines and doesn't talk to tails at all)

The tension in the story fluctuates and starts on a high tension for both with Sonic escaping the millitary and Eggman breaking into the base, not just a slow increase but there are dips and highs in the tension throughout the story.

I like SA1 for similar reasons but I find myself playing SA1 more than SA2 now, although SA2 used to be one of my faves

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CrownSlayer’s Shadow

What gets me about the hate for SA2 is its seems to be arbitrary. How it goes from being one of the best to one of the worst is beyond me; yea you can say it aged badly but that didn't stop people from loving Unleashed despite aging similarly.

Well not a lot of people feel the same magic in the game they had 12 years ago. In a way, it's understandable that what they enjoyed over a decade ago didn't stand the test of time.

 

What should be worth noting is people who like to pretend they never liked the game, or worse that the series was never good even during SA2. Some of the worst examples from the Dark Ages went as far as bashing anything that was Sonic from cartoons to minor NPCs as a kneejerk reaction to all his flops during that time, so people can be especially arbitrary over things they really shouldn't be and at the worst of moments.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonîc
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