When will Sega/Dimps/Sonic Team understand?

[Tara]

The missions in Unleashed are the rare exception. Needing to be careful because the game is shittily made isn't really worth considering, because any game that's shittily made has already failed.

The only thing wrong with SA1 and SA2's homing attack was its occasional refusing to lock on.  At least, that's the only problem I had with it.  Everything else was mostly okay.  Not grand, mind you, but okay.  Having to aim your shots carefully because it doesn't automatically line you up with the next enemy is not poor programming, it's a legitimate challenge.

 

Except you need to pay attention to how fast it's moving and the timing of your jump, rather than having the game literally do it for you.

Yeah, not like you have to do with the Homing Attack chains at all.  Nope, those clearly play themselves, except for all the things you just said had to be done by the user.

 

I'd rather these be incorporated in a mechanic that doesn't suck, rather than used to try to patch in interest to one that sucks.

Such as?

[Diogenes]

Having to aim your shots carefully because it doesn't automatically line you up with the next enemy is not poor programming, it's a legitimate challenge.

The only time you have to aim with any care is when the game is unreliable. Anything else you just hold vaguely in the appropriate direction and the game does the rest.

Yeah, not like you have to do with the Homing Attack chains at all.  Nope, those clearly play themselves, except for all the things you just said had to be done by the user.

You can't honestly be suggesting there's similar amounts of interaction between manually jumping and an attack that literally homes in on enemies.

Such as?

Have the homing attack bounce past enemies rather than sticking in place, the way it works on balloons. Also don't use chains of enemies because they're dumb.

[Blue Blood]

Something that Sonic Team apparently have learned, is that grinding has been over used and over simplified to the point where it's boring, and so it's (seemingly) been absolished in Lost World. HA chains, much as they suck, are a lesser issue than boosters and grinding.

[Tara]

The only time you have to aim with any care is when the game is unreliable. Anything else you just hold vaguely in the appropriate direction and the game does the rest.

What you call "unreliable" I call "the game."  I don't know, I guess we've been playing two completely different Sonics.  Granted, as I stated earlier, the newer games' lock-on feature does make them too easy, but that doesn't make the mechanic in and of itself necessarily bad.

 

 

You can't honestly be suggesting there's similar amounts of interaction between manually jumping and an attack that literally homes in on enemies.

Fine, let's look at it from a completely different perspective.  Think about the homing attack as the Auto-Aim that is utilized in some FPS games.  Yeah, sure your, crosshair automatically locks onto targets, but that doesn't mean much if your enemies all have bazookas or high powered weaponry.  If anything it can hinder you.  The Homing Attack chains are the same way.  Yes, it locks onto enemies, but if you don't time it well, then you're going to die.

 

Going back to SA2, if you tried to just press A five times quickly, chances are, it would throw your aim off and cause you to miss.  That's the point.  That's not the game being unreliable.  You're supposed to have a sense of rhythm for it, which I'll admit is lost in every game from Heroes onwards.  Sure, you could get lucky and the lock-on system will work in your favor, but if all it were was simply presing A to kill your enemies, then we might as well get rid of the homing attack altogether because I can't think of a single moment in the game where that isn't the case when the enemies AREN'T in chains.

 

 

 

Have the homing attack bounce past enemies rather than sticking in place, the way it works on balloons. Also don't use chains of enemies because they're dumb.

And I still don't see the rationale in this argument.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Akito

[Diogenes]

Fine, let's look at it from a completely different perspective.  Think about the homing attack as the Auto-Aim that is utilized in some FPS games.

I don't play many FPSes but it seems like any kind of auto-aim is usually pretty subtle. Or if it's something like Metroid Prime, being able to aim at the enemy isn't the part that's the challenge.

Yes, it locks onto enemies, but if you don't time it well, then you're going to die.

This barely ever comes up and it's a boring timing "puzzle" anyway. Forced waiting isn't a great way to make Sonic games more engaging.

Going back to SA2, if you tried to just press A five times quickly, chances are, it would throw your aim off and cause you to miss.

No, it's pretty trivial to do a chain.

You're supposed to have a sense of rhythm for it,

The problem is that it's the same rhythm, every time. Repeating the same exact thing every time is boring, especially when you've been doing in in every game for the last 15 years.

... but if all it were was simply presing A to kill your enemies, then we might as well get rid of the homing attack altogether because I can't think of a single moment in the game where that isn't the case when the enemies AREN'T in chains.

That is all there is, the "combat" in Sonic games is in need of a severe reworking, and chains are just the most obvious failing of it.

[Tara]

I don't play many FPSes but it seems like any kind of auto-aim is usually pretty subtle. Or if it's something like Metroid Prime, being able to aim at the enemy isn't the part that's the challenge.

Actually, no.  Most FPS games with Auto-Aim are very un-subtle, and usually good aiming is ideal when you want to take down multiple enemies with heavy weaponry.  In other words, it doesn't negate from the challenge at all, but depending on your own personal preference and skill level, it can make it a bit unnecessarily difficult, but that's a different argument.

 

 

This barely ever comes up and it's a boring timing "puzzle" anyway. Forced waiting isn't a great way to make Sonic games more engaging.

I'd say I agreed with you if "forced waiting" didn't amount to two whole seconds that really amount to nothing in the grand scheme of things.

 

 

No, it's pretty trivial to do a chain.

Really?  If I just press A repeatedly with no break in between, Sonic/Shadow will literally stop locking on and just fly towards whatever direction they were facing.

 

 

The problem is that it's the same rhythm, every time. Repeating the same exact thing every time is boring, especially when you've been doing in in every game for the last 15 years.

Which is a problem with the execution, not the concept.  I've already said the excecution is far from perfect and has only been further nerfed in recent years.  The word "boring" is all a matter of personal opinion, though.  I can still play pretty much play any Sonic game with Homing Attack and it will still be refreshing, but then, I'm rather easily amused.

 

lol pretty buttons

 

 

That is all there is, the "combat" in Sonic games is in need of a severe reworking, and chains are just the most obvious failing of it.

And I still fail to see how chains are the most obvious flaw in a combat system that we can both agree seriously needs an overhaul.

 

Also, NONE of these arguments explain to me why the chains in and of themselves are bad.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Akito

[Tani Coyote]

Personally I'd replace the homing attack with some sort of varying acrobatic moves determined randomly. Instead of hit = big boom, hit = kick them into something, then big boom, for example. Basically akin to jumping on someone's head in Smash Bros.

I don't see a problem with homing attack chains though. No more useful than loops, but just as iconic by this point.

[Sega DogTagz]

If its at all possible to chain that new kick move into other homing attacks, then Lost World might just give us a new spin on the long standard HA chain.

 

I think I would like to see an armored badnik trolling you in the middle of a small chain of enemies, forcing you to kick him in order to continue. Then in the later stages you can throw in some spiked bubbles, or electrified spinners and really make it a gauntlet of pain. You'll have to keep your rhythm, adjust your timing mid-flight and keep a keen eye on what kind of enemy is next in line. I like it.

 

I don't have too much of a problem with chains as long as Sonic Team doesn't abuse them. Its just a manual transition set piece. Its better than sitting back and watching Sonic spring over a small gorge automatically.

[Sean]

I'm not even gonna get involved in this shit-fest of a topic, I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the rage.

If you don't want to get involved in this topic then don't post.

If you think it's a shit-fest that's getting out of hand then you report it and not post.

You do one of those two things rather than what you wrote here. You say you're not gonna get involved and yet you make a post anyway; which is nothing but egging people on to argue with each other for your enjoyment. We would like to keep an atmosphere of pleasant conversation around here whenever possible and you're not helping.

[Tani Coyote]

If its at all possible to chain that new kick move into other homing attacks, then Lost World might just give us a new spin on the long standard HA chain.

I had completely forgotten about that!

With all the parkour moves and more emphasis on physical interaction with the environment, I do certainly hope the homing attack is more varied depending on what you hit, rather than more generic "ram into them, make them go boom" as it is now. I can see a lot of potential for it. I mean, consider the giant Badniks from Generations; a homing attack merely left him unconscious and harmless for a short period of time so you could walk over them safely. Surely they can get inventive with it with smaller enemies?

 

I don't have too much of a problem with chains as long as Sonic Team doesn't abuse them. Its just a manual transition set piece. Its better than sitting back and watching Sonic spring over a small gorge automatically.

Plus at least homing attacks work now in most games. Contrast to Sonic Dash which has a homing attack that makes the Adventure-era attacks seem reliable by comparison... I mean, euuuugh.

[azoo]

The more that I think about it, the less of a problem it is.

 

I mean, in a 3D action game (like say, the "Arkham" Batman game series), you can almost primarly press the X button repeatedly and you'll semi-home into your nearest enemy while wailing all up on them until they're down-and-out; and occasionally needing to use a different move (such as stunning) to take down enemies in a different fashion. Compare this to Lost World, which is basically that exact same premise, but adapted toward suit for a fast-paced 3D platformer.

 

Homing chains at this point aren't even that offensive if they aren't everywhere, which contrary to the OP, it doesn't seem to be that rampant in SLW at all (minus maybe the 3DS version?). And if you include swarms of enemies on the ground as areas based around homing chains, then that's kind of silly because you could easily also just roll, Spindash, bounce attack, kick, or just boop them all manually. Heck, even in the automated acts (like as we've seen for Desert Ruins 2) if you can do just about everything you're supposed to (except mobile) then you should be able to roll through those long lines of enemies then, too. 

 

But I mean.. if we're just repeating the sentiment that floating, still, eventless drones meant to be A-buttoned into over massive chasms is dumb then, well, yeah it's dumb.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Azookara

[RK64]

Homing attack chains aren't a issue, the issue is how there implemented.  In Lost World, the homing attack looks to be much more like a lock-on version of the bounce attack from SA2 as Sonic bounces multiple enemies with a button press rather than button mashing to kill a row of enemies, and even then, Sonic has no boost function like in Generations/Colors/Unleashed so this looks to be a compensation for that trade off. 

 

Homing attack chains in the Dimps games on the other hand, are just flat out annoying; a row of enemies placed of a series of bottomless pits or just there to pad out the level.  The rare example of HA Chains being used well in Dimps games was in Sonic 4 Ep. 2 in the Savanna Castle Act 3 were you HA platforms to move them rather than hit chains of enemies the how level. 

Edited July 7, 2013 by RK64

[Speedy]

Really don't see the problem with home attack chains. I like the homing attack, for those of us who've been introduced to Sonic with the Adventure era or later it's probably a move as iconic as the spin dash (which I would like to be utilized in a game again, by the way). For a game that works as fast as Sonic, it's somewhat necessary to have a homing attack move of sorts if you don't want every enemy that appears to slow the player down much more than they would like. The homing attack is practical. In terms of killing enemies becoming too easy I find the boost much worse. You don't even have to jump at them anymore, you can just run them over.

 

As much as I think the homing attack is cool and practical, I don't see what's wrong with making chains of them. Actually, I think it's a natural result of giving the player a homing attack move, and I always had fun doing several homing attacks on a bunch of enemies. (Yes, although it's just pressing A repeatedly. Some of us are simple to please it seems.)

 

However, I actually prefered the homing attacks without lock-on markers, like they were before Unleashed. In most situations, homing attacks in Unleashed and Generations are much more about timing (you even get a beep sound to tell you when to press the button) than they are about aiming at enemies or objects like springs. I would prefer the homing attack to be a little more limited, meaning that I can't attack everything on screen, pretty much regardless of distance or if it's even in Sonic's line of sight. I think it would make the homing attack less automatized if you had to aim in the direction of the enemy more carefully or really make Sonic look towards the enemy.