About Sonic's 20th

[Blacklightning]

I feel like if you were to give Sonic a subset of fighting moves, it would make him seem a bit like a psychopath. Take the Sonic CD credit sequence, for example. He really reminds me of Kratos when he tears that one robot's horn off. In Black Knight, suddenly he has to be careful to not massacre the civilian population while he's on his way to kill the king.

I dunno, it didn't really seem out of place in Sonic '06, bad though it might be. It takes a bit of experimentation, but I felt chaining Homing Attacks and Bounce Attacks together actually to be something of a thrill when I first discovered it. Naturally it gets a bit old, seeing as '06's laughably small moveset doesn't really allow for much more than that, but I wouldn't mind seeing it expanded apon a bit. Hey, it's better than moving all the combat to a transformation, right?

I wouldn't say it's impossible to make a decently deep moveset the way you describe it (spinning mostly with an occasional kick, if I understand you right). It'll take some imagination though. That much I'll have to admit right off the bat. If they can accomplish that without draining on the platforming or the speed factors, even better.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Now, this parts to both of you:

It seems to me like that's part of the problem. They're starting out with these gigantic ideas that this game need to be the most amazing thing ever, even though one of Sonic's defining traits in the old days was simplicity.

That's not exactly the case.

It may be true that they feel the games need to be the most amazing thing ever, but the problem with that is two things: the ideas and their execution.

When it comes to the ideas on how to make the next Sonic game, it's as if they're pulling ideas out of a hat instead of working on a certain trait and expanding it. Each game may have Sonic running around from point A to B, but it has him doing something that doesn't expand on that trait and is a different thing altogether.

They're basically turning a block of ice to a block of steel as time goes by, and then turning that into a block of stone years later as a comparison. It's not exactly consistent; they're blocks and they're both solid (as a reference to how they've kept that same Sonic Adventure style play for years), but what they can do is different from each other (as a reference to how despite the style it has some different stuff in it).

As for execution...I think we all know that part at least.

As Sakurai said,

I think the creator of Smash Bros and Kirby knows what he's talking about.

For 2D, yes. But 3D is a whole different story. That takes some serious reworking to achieve the same affect without it being screwy to play.

[Phos]

One of the reasons it's called "pinball physics" is because it acts like a pinball and, frankly, I don't want to try to run in a straight line and end up ricocheting back and forth just because I hit a wall or unfairly slide off a platform because I'm moving too fast and can't slow down properly.

Pinballs don't bounce very hard off of inert surfaces, and Sonic even less so. In fact, Sonic never bounces on inert surfaces. Pinball tables are actually rigged up to rebound the ball, the bumpers are actually powered devices. Come to think of it, it's the same deal with Sonic's springs.

It captures the appearance and superficial essence of the 2D games in 3D, but I can't play it or even look at it and say the controls don't seem awkward and the camera doesn't sit right. I'm sure Sonic CAN do well in 3D and still maintain the appeal of the 2D games, but it still would need some drastic reworking.

It does have some issues with on the ground handling, a system more akin to Sonic Adventure 1's basic movement set up would be better for controlling Sonic (though he needs to not get stopped by inert surfaces). I think the problem is that Sonic doesn't really turn, it's more like he just enters a fractional screech, sort of just "changes direction". The real beauty of that engine is how it carries the momentum you have on the ground into the air.

I really don't think that you truly think that "simplicity" is what the series relies on if your idea on what makes it great is as intricate as that Sonic Science site dictates.

I never got the idea that Sonic Science calls for a more complex game. It's calling for something different from current games with no specific regard to changing it's level of complexity. My basic idea is that Sonic is the simple part, the stage is the complex part. Limiting yourself to simplicity can also cause unexpected benefits. Naka insisted that Sonic only use one button that limitation no only resulted in the game being easier to learn, but from my understanding, also led to Sonic's ability to roll... or maybe it was the way he also curls into a ball when he jumps (SURPRISINGLY IMPORTANT MECHANIC), I can never seem to figure out which it is.

Edit:

That's not exactly the case.

I'm basing this off what Hashimoto wrote in his blog, so it is the case. It was also the case for Sonic 06. Iizuka has little to do with Sonic any more, so his games don't seem worth talking about in this context.

For 2D, yes. But 3D is a whole different story. That takes some serious reworking to achieve the same affect without it being screwy to play.

I'm not saying they should make a 3D game with one button, I'm saying they should try and make a simpler control scheme.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Phos

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm basing this off what Hashimoto wrote in his blog, so it is the case. It was also the case for Sonic 06. Iizuka has little to do with Sonic any more, so his games don't seem worth talking about in this context.

They still have the same thing going for them, in that there's always something completely unrelated to what Sonic does is added into the mix that they think will be absolutely amazing for the game. Regardless on whether Hashimoto, Iizuka, or whoever is involved, my point still stands.

Edited June 19, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[ArtFenix]

I think things that should be in this anniversary game:

1.DEEP STORY(PLEASE!!!)

2.NOT ONLY SONIC! No damn werehogs!

3.Blue tornado 2 , not the crap that was in SU

4.Full 3D gameplay, unleashed's gameplay is too simple, we all have both sonic rush games for the "boost fest"

5.MORE CG scenes as great as they were in S06 (unleashed ones are a bit worse and much shorter)

6.Connection to previous adventure games, unleashed disappointed me.

7.No guns and stupid garbage characters like chip. Let Tails be with Sonic, it's only his duty))

8.Give us decent bonuses! Unlocable characters/levels/some other stuff..

9.Bring back energetic music like rock or whatever, unleashed's music was crap.

[Chan Kaylore]

4.Full 3D gameplay, unleashed's gameplay is too simple, we all have both sonic rush games for the "boost fest"

8.Give us decent bonuses! Unlocable characters/levels/some other stuff..

9.Bring back energetic music like rock or whatever, unleashed's music was crap.

Just highlighting some of these points, as they kind of tickle my interest. For the first one, forcing the player to backtrack over old stages to collect medals to unlock further stages? Not my idea of simple gameplay, though I agree with the boost fest idea when talking about Unleashed. Ye gods is all I have to say to that.

Unlockable content? Yes please. And decent goodies, at that. While I love looking at the creative process that goes into a game (Secret Rings, Black Knight and Unleashed; here's looking at you), it'd be nice to get a creative look into the processes of the older games. Stuff that the fans may not have seen before. Things like that are always a real treat.

I'm all for the energetic music, and I happily enjoy any of the soundtracks (including Chronicles. Amazing, I know), but it still seemed like Unleashed's music fit the feel of whatever level it was played in. Mazuri Daytime has to be one of my favourites with the fast-paced drum rhythms and wind instruments.

If it's at all possible to get an all-star cast of musicians to work on Sonic's 20th, that would be amazing. Black Knight tried it out, and that soundtrack is probably one of the best ones to come out of the series to date.

For plot...ehh, it's hard to say "go back to simplicity" without taking a look at the audience. When Sonic first hit the scene, games were simple, and you could get away without such things as dialogue or in-depth plot. Technology and times have moved, enabling us to hear things like characters talking and various other crazy in-depth things.

Comparing that "going back to simplicity" theme to games of today, like Sonic 06, Unleashed, Black Knight, hell, especially Chronicles, since it's RPG driven...it's something that's hard to do. Unleashed got something right in the way that it was Sonic only, with fast-paced action (despite my backtracking gripe up there), but it's going to be a balance that Sega will never be able to nail, because the fanbase is so divided on everything.

[Sean]

lol.

I want another Sonic game that has fun side-mini games like those found in SRA and that's all I want ever.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

7.No guns and stupid garbage characters like chip. Let Tails be with Sonic, it's only his duty))

Tails actually had little reason to be in Unleashed in the first place. Chip was actually less garbage compared to Tails and Amy. And I would've hurt somebody if they had Knuckles there without any reason to be off the Island.

9.Bring back energetic music like rock or whatever, unleashed's music was crap.

If anything, rock would sounded much worse in most of Unleashed's levels. And personally, I think we need to do away with this all rock soundtrack and have one with more variety. It doesn't have to be energetic so long as it matches the setting Sonic is in.

[SuperStingray]

Tails actually had little reason to be in Unleashed in the first place. Chip was actually less garbage compared to Tails and Amy. And I would've hurt somebody if they had Knuckles there without any reason to be off the Island.

That's one of the things I loved about Unleashed- they didn't need to shoehorn in characters. The fact that Knuckles and even Shadow weren't in Unleashed just to appease fanboys and fangirls just made me feel that Sonic Team is starting to think more for themselves.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I liked Chip a lot, but I really didn't like how they seemed to transplant Tails' old sidekick role onto him. I'd like to see Tails become Sonic's right hand man again in a future game, rather than Captain Exposition.

[Reading]

I also liked the lack of unnecessary characters in Unleashed. Tails is really all I "need" in terms of supporting characters. Although, for some reason, I thought Amy looked cute in Unleashed. xP

I wonder where they're going to go from here regarding the supporting characters. As much as I dislike the direction Unleashed took gameplay-wise, it really did feel like a sort of fresh start in terms of most of the other things. Are they going to continue to keep the rest of the supporting cast out of the games, or perhaps involve them only when necessary (i.e. Shadow appears only when GUN gets involved in something, Knuckles appears only when the Master Emerald is in danger)?

100th post! Sweet.

[ArtFenix]

when GUN gets involved in something, Knuckles appears only when the Master Emerald is in danger

Maybe i'm not right, but i'm not sure that we'll see these things in "new direction" sonic games again.. Seeing how empty the story in SU was, seeing THAT cartoonish style of humans and the "humour", i'm afraid sonicteam are going to make new games without any connection to the previous ones. I'm afraid sonic won't have deep plots (like in Sa, Sa2, Shth, S06, Satbk))) again..Either way, Shadow isn't him anymore..(just have a look at Mario and Sonic at the olympic games! Shadow is serious character, why does he need to be in such a cheesy game?!)

Edited June 20, 2009 by ArtFenix

[Mike]

They should pull a Sonic Rush and have us play the exact same game twice only with a different character.

Now instead of a 4 hour game you have an 8 hour game.

Super Mario Galaxy did this with Luigi....except they made it really hard to get him.

[CheezSpike]

i'm afraid sonicteam are going to make new games without any connection to the previous ones. I'm afraid sonic won't have deep plots (like in Sa, Sa2, Shth, S06) again..

The way people view the Sonic franchise now, it would probably be in Sonic Team's best intrest to try and NOT connect itself with some of the previous games, and try to build a reputation off of Sonic Unleashed.

And I still don't understand why people want Sonic to feature in a super serious storyline. I mean, he's a freaking blue hedgehog for Lord's sake. That's like trying to place Mickey Mouse in the lead role of 300, it just doesn't fit well.

[Rusty Spy]

And I still don't understand why people want Sonic to feature in a super serious storyline. I mean, he's a freaking blue hedgehog for Lord's sake. That's like trying to place Mickey Mouse in the lead role of 300, it just doesn't fit well.

I'm afraid sonic won't have deep plots (like in Sa, Sa2, Shth, S06, Satbk))) again..Either way, Shadow isn't him anymore..(just have a look at Mario and Sonic at the olympic games! Shadow is serious character, why does he need to be in such a cheesy game?!)

Ever played the Mother series?

[ArtFenix]

You know..I have been growing up with Sonic, i liked the deep story of Sa and Sa2 long ago.. And now i'm 19 y.o. and OF COURSE i want to see Sonic not SO childish. Sure, Sonic games are aimed primary at kids, but was Sa plot so bad?! No, it wasn't. I want the same level of seriousness in sonic games. I'm sick of this childish shit, because i know, sonicteam CAN make sonic games for all ages. They did, they can do it now.

Did you watch the Avatar cartoon? I think it has a lot of actually good humour and drama. There is love, friendship, evil, etc.. The same level of seriousness could work for Sonic. Sonic and the black knight did that right, but it wasn't canon(((That's really a shame(!

Huh..But seeing Sonic from the most childish (american, not japanese!) sonic cartoon, i can understand your position..

Edited June 20, 2009 by ArtFenix

[CheezSpike]

Ever played the Mother series?

No.

What's your point?

[Diogenes]

You know..I have been growing up with Sonic, i liked the deep story of Sa and Sa2 long ago.. And now i'm 19 y.o. and OF COURSE i want to see Sonic not SO childish.

Methinks you've fallen into the common trap of being more concerned with being "mature" than actually enjoying yourself.

Sure, Sonic games are aimed primary at kids, but was Sa plot so bad?! No, it wasn't.

Was Unleashed's plot so bad? No, it wasn't. Really, I see nothing particularly childish about Unleashed's plot.

I'm sick of this childish shit,

What "childish shit" are you talking about, exactly? Recent games haven't done anything more than scale back the grimdark emo bullshit tone of ShtH and '06 and return to something more like SA.

[ArtFenix]

Methinks you've fallen into the common trap of being more concerned with being "mature" than actually enjoying yourself.

I can't enjoy seeing some things in unleashed.(creepy humans and chip's "humour")

No, unleashed's plot ITSELF wasn't bad at all. I just don't like how they filled it with chip, ugly humans, i dislike the fact, that there wasn't any connection to the previous games. I don't like the idea, that Eggman easily created a cannon, which isn't worse, than the greatest technical creation of Gerald Robotnik. That's why i don't like unleashed's plot.

I'm not emo, i just like drama). It was in Sa, Sa2,(hell, even in Sonic heroes in team dark story), Shth(maybe too much, but anyway), S06. And i'm speaking about chip's humour. I call it "childish shit", because even kiddish sonic heroes was more serious! Too dark plots isn't so goot for Sonic, but for me, it is better than that style and humor in SU. And if i had to choose between the world and Sonic a TOO dark plot and a TOO childish one, i would choose the first one. Hope you understand me..

Edited June 20, 2009 by ArtFenix

[Rusty Spy]

No.

What's your point?

The Mother series is very popular for not only having very deep stories, but also being able to include a lot of wacky characters and dialogue, cameos, and just overall satire of modern RPGs.

[Diogenes]

ugly humans,

I just can't understand this at all. The humans are no more grotesque than any other character in the series aside from the recent anime or realistic humans. There's been a cartoonishly deformed human in the series since day one, but for some reason when there's other humans that are similarly cartoonish, they're all "ugly". And why is it always such a sticking point? They're NPCs, they're barely relevant, it should barely even matter what they look like.

i dislike the fact, that there wasn't any connection to the previous games.

Is that really worth making a complaint? Direct references to previous works is in no way necessary to write a good story, and in this series it's usually been little more than a nice bonus when they have. And as far as I can remember, there's really only one reference to a previous game in SA2, and it's barely even relevant, and I don't see anyone getting bent out of shape over that.

I don't like the idea, that Eggman easily created a cannon, which isn't worse, than the greatest technical creation of Gerald Robotnik.

Uh, can you reword this one? I can't seem to make sense out of it.

I'm not emo, i just like drama). It was in Sa, Sa2,(hell, even in Sonic heroes in team dark story), Shth(maybe too much, but anyway), S06.

And it was in Unleashed too. I see no significant difference in "drama" between SA and Unleashed.

And i'm speaking about chip's humour. I call it "childish shit", because even kiddish sonic heroes was more serious!

Yes, because how dare (what is essentially) a child act like a child! Obviously this one child acting like a child is worse than a whole game where all the characters act like they're in a crappy saturday morning cartoon, completely with a cheesy heavy-handed moral in the form of one of the most repulsive lines in the entire series.

Honestly, if Chip is so terrible, what would you prefer a child in the Sonic series to act like?

[Sean]

God I hate the word "emo".

The Mother series is very popular for not only having very deep stories, but also being able to include a lot of wacky characters and dialogue, cameos, and just overall satire of modern RPGs.

There's no way the Sonic games would ever be able to match up to the emotional intensity of the Mother games. Even though it should.

[Phos]

I can't enjoy seeing some things in unleashed.(creepy humans and chip's "humour")

No, unleashed's plot ITSELF wasn't bad at all. I just don't like how they filled it with chip, ugly humans, i dislike the fact, that there wasn't any connection to the previous games. I don't like the idea, that Eggman easily created a cannon, which isn't worse, than the greatest technical creation of Gerald Robotnik. That's why i don't like unleashed's plot.

I'm not emo, i just like drama). It was in Sa, Sa2,(hell, even in Sonic heroes in team dark story), Shth(maybe too much, but anyway), S06. And i'm speaking about chip's humour. I call it "childish shit", because even kiddish sonic heroes was more serious! Too dark plots isn't so goot for Sonic, but for me, it is better than that style and humor in SU. And if i had to choose between the world and Sonic a TOO dark plot and a TOO childish one, i would choose the first one. Hope you understand me..

I think you need to watch some Looney Toons.

[Rusty Spy]

There's no way the Sonic games would ever be able to match up to the emotional intensity of the Mother games. Even though it should.

True, obviously, but I was using the Mother series as an example of being able to have deep and emotional plots while still keeping a very lighthearted atmosphere.

[Mike]

When you beat the game they should let you replay it in First Person.

That'd be kinda cool....and weird.