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Attitudes and Respect


Chris

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So what you're saying is you want to stop people from saying bad things about stuff.

 

Never gonna happen if we keep having topics about Sonic games that not everyone likes. Do you expect them to not contribute to discussion because they don't like the game?

You've just completely took my post out of context.

I said that there's more worth in treating a newbie amiably than shitting all over their first effort because it doesn't correlate with your view on what constitutes a good topic. Hence why I hold fast to the ideal that if you haven't got something nice or at least neutral to say don't bother saying it.

This is something I learned as a moderator myself. You and your foru will never be viewed in a good light if you're needlessly bitchy to members who are receptive to amiable guidance.

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I wouldn't mind taking that sort of system out for a test drive, actually.  The problem is that creating a reply and creating a thread are two completely different things.  It's easier to think of a reply to a current discussion than it is to think of an all new discussion, and once members reach that 50 post minimum, then they're likely to take advantage of it by posting the very first thing on their mind... which if you come from some of the forums that I do, is usually the ability to post topics. =/

 

Again, not saying I would be against testing this out, but I don't see it working for this forum in particular.

 

Point is, instead of making "guys stop it" announcement topics no one listens to, actions need to either be taken against the dipshit existing members who can't keep their mouth shut, or taken against the Sugar Rush "xXXPrincessEliseRocksMyCockXXx" newbies so they don't incite the dipshit members. Preferably both.

Edited by Solkia
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The Meet n' Greet forum was removed due to it causing an unrealistic barrier for new members that isn't common on a forum. Backseat moderation is still against the rules but more often than not goes under the radar at the moment. 

 

is a post I wrote and I need to know if I was being inappropriate to the member I quoted. If I was, I am truly sorry because I did not how that it went against the rules. I have to admit I was slightly upset and that explains my "I can tell" comment due to the fact this new member's post was his very first.

 

But I really need to know if the approach I took to this situation could have been handled better on my part.

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So if I removed/changed those three italicized things it would be literally fine?

I said that they were problem areas, not that removing the words specifically would change the tone to the degree that is needed. From the get go in this topic, I have attempted to sidestep your entire debacle purely on the basis of your approach. My whole point in this announcement was to address the attitude of established members on the forum, something to the point that you took as a much larger source of negativity in the long run than was previously present.

You get more bees with honey than with vinegar, as it were.

 

The newbie and topic in question did nothing wrong. It was the behavior from the existing community that caused me to do an Oprah and give everyone strikes.

Empathizing this for clarification. It seems that my original post has gotten skewed in the last seven pages:

This announcement is not directed at the actions of newer members. It is to address the attitudes and negativity coming from existing members, towards new members or one another, particularly in the Sonic forums.

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The newbie and topic in question did nothing wrong. It was the behavior from the existing community that caused me to do an Oprah and give everyone strikes.

 

The topic itself was original and had potential which was laid down to waste.

 

I promise you though, if it was Nepenthe herself or one of the staff who posted the exact same idea, I have a feeling it would have been taken more seriously, which I find it to be sad. It's too bad I didn't even get a chance to offer my expertise on it.

 

Edit: fixed Nepenthe's gender, sorry (her avatar always throws me off.)

Edited by tenchibr
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is a post I wrote and I need to know if I was being inappropriate to the member I quoted. If I was, I am truly sorry because I did not how that it went against the rules. I have to admit I was slightly upset and that explains my "I can tell" comment due to the fact this new member's post was his very first.

 

But I really need to know if the approach I took to this situation could have been handled better on my part.

I don't mind a polite nudge towards the rules in particular, but that's just me. The degree of backseat moderation that we enforce is blatantly saying it's against the rules and then threatening to report it - you know the kind, being a general dick.

Your post is like the center line to me. It's not crossing it, nor is it on the side I'm trying to encourage here. Given the timestamp being from last week, it's fine.

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I don't mind a polite nudge towards the rules in particular, but that's just me. The degree of backseat moderation that we enforce is blatantly saying it's against the rules and then threatening to report it - you know the kind, being a general dick.

Your post is like the center line to me. It's not crossing it, nor is it on the side I'm trying to encourage here. Given the timestamp being from last week, it's fine.

 

I feel much better, thank you. Like I said, I feel like I could have toned down the sarcasm a bit. Next time I will count to 10.

 

On that note though, I tried to make the post still have relevant content to the topic in question, so with that in mind, if I have nothing to contribute to the topic but I feel like said "polite nudge" is necessary, are we allowed to PM new members as such?

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it was Nepenthe himself
Yeah, about that... =P But I agree. Staff have more privilege in being taken seriously, but that's mainly because we're staff and we are allowed to kick butts n shtuff. But even before I was promoted, people took my topics seriously because I'm a decent writer and built up a rapport with the community in knowing what I was talking about, even if I had disagreeable ideas. I had to make a good first impression myself. Granted, that doesn't mean the behavior is condoned even with a bad topic. People who have done nothing wrong - or in this case, make a passable topic- still deserve the respect delivered to an oldbie.
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I do agree that there needs to be some action taken about this, we can't keep posting a topic every time something like this happens. I hate to say it, but people are hardheaded, especially on the Internet, and won't listen until you take some action against them.

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Yeah, about that... =P But I agree. Staff have more privilege in being taken seriously, but that's mainly because we're staff and we are allowed to kick butts n shtuff. But even before I was promoted, people took my topics seriously because I'm a decent writer and built up a rapport with the community in knowing what I was talking about, even if I had disagreeable ideas. I had to make a good first impression myself. Granted, that doesn't mean the behavior is condoned even with a bad topic. People who have done nothing wrong - or in this case, make a passable topic- still deserve the respect delivered to an oldbie.

 

I used staff as an example because it was easy to do so, but I would also include veteran members as well on that list of the Cool Kids on the Board that get a positive bias.

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What kind of action would you propose?

 

Well for current members of the forum, make it damn clear that shit that happened in the topic will not be tolerated; week suspension, restricted privileges, etc. This is a forum to discuss our likes, interests, and just a place where people can come to chill out, not a place to see how snarky you can be and how many likes you can get.

 

Newer members are generally lurkers before they join, and get an idea for the forum by watching how veterans act and treat each other; if you are an asshole, they're gonna think its ok to be an asshole so we have to show them that we aren't assholes....well, not complete assholes. 

 

As for new members being redundant with topics and shizz, maybe someone should just PM them a post about the rules, and conventions of the site whenever they join. People are gonna post stupid topics from time to time, we just gotta deal with it instead of getting fed up and lashing out. If a topic annoys you, don't click it, its not hard. I've done it.

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Hey, here's an idea:

 

How about a 50 post requirement before a thread can be made? That way Newbies have a chance to figure out what this place is like and we don't get shitty "HEy guys what about 06? XD" topics everytime someone joins?

 

And don't give me that "we don't like to restrict new members like that" crap. It's a countermeasure plenty of forums use and it works almost flawlessly.

 

Though I don't know why I'm saying this. All I'm going to get is responses as to why the current system works when it obviously doesn't when we have threads like this every 3 months.

I'm sorry but I agree with this. If we keep getting slap on the wrist topics like this every blue moon, (no pun intended...) then that should be a wake up call that something needs drastic change, or we'll keep getting someone who comes along, brings up a least favored subject, (06, petitions, constant ranting, etc.), gets slammed for it, disappears into oblivion, people get antsy about new members making dumb topics, shit on potential good new members, and yet, here we are again. So a requirement system like this isn't a bad idea and won't hurt anybody. New members are free to read the rules, post, learn how topics work, and go with the flow easier. If people decide to be antagonistic towards that new member when they obviously did nothing wrong, they're the ones who can't control their attitudes towards members, new or old.

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-Strike anyone who replies to spam topics instead of reporting them as well as people who spam in new topics, and if they do it again, enact a temp. ban and 2 month removal of status updates.

-Enact the 50 post rule for 1or 2 months to see how it goes. You can argue the semantics of it all you want, but the fact remains that plenty of forums have used it in succession. 

 

Or hell, ask Roary what he did when this place was a shithole.

Edited by Solkia
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So basically you guys want a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to discussion, spam, and reporting for the old members (which is basically what Roarey did, although anecdotes say old SSMB was way, way worse). Essentially, a strike for every infraction, and when you hit three in a two-month period you're gone?

Though, I still don't understand why we need to talk to new members much less restrict their posting rights because other people can't handle dealing with new members. Instigating a limit on making topics is essentially blaming them for the problem. I don't agree to that.

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I feel like a zero tolerance policy is a bit....harsh. Warnings are fine, but I feel like strikes should be saved for repeated action.

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Newer members are generally lurkers before they join, and get an idea for the forum by watching how veterans act and treat each other; if you are an asshole, they're gonna think its ok to be an asshole so we have to show them that we aren't assholes....well, not complete assholes. 

 

 

I am that paragraph. I didn't join right away because I didn't feel ready, but eventually I made it in. Some people are more adventurous though and will jump right in.

 

My personal issue with the 50 post suggestion is there will be spammers that will poison the forum with lazy posts that are borderline acceptable. I will never forget this one member: I could smell his frustration due to the post requirement to post in the Market Place. He actually bitched publicly about it and he actually posted the minimum necessary just to get in and buy/sell his crap. And if I remember correctly, it's way less than 50, so imagine if 50 posts were required for the whole forum?

 

Now, maybe that was the whole point of it, to weed them out. For greedy bastards I feel like it works; but for everyone else, I believe it's just delaying the inevitable, which is after going through all the necessary posts, new members will be too excited and force themselves to create a new topic (and will probably brag about it - "Hey guys, I made my requirement so here's my new thread! Ta-dah!") and most first topics usually are made up of ideas from topics that already exist, and so, they end up being merged or locked; and then those members, after working so hard for their right to open a thread, are now even more frustrated.

 

Yes, there will be members that will come out of those and will be pure gold to the community, but sometimes, you just have to polish the rock until you find the diamond within. This 50-post suggestion will kill a lot of potential from the get-go.

Edited by tenchibr
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It's not just about restricting new members, it's about giving them a chance to fit in without shooting themselves in the foot (speaking from experience, Chao Garden thread anyone?).

 

It also helps ward off trolls. Trolls are less likely to target forums with counter-measures such as these.


My personal issue with the 50 post suggestion is there will be spammers that will poison the forum with lazy posts that are borderline acceptable. 

 

I won't argue this one. I basically shit up Sega-16 for a month so I could make a topic asking to get my Genesis fixed.

 

There's downsides to everything. That's why I'm suggesting just giving it a try.

 

We already have a 15 post requirement for the marketplace. Might as well apply it elsewhere.

Edited by Solkia
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I feel like a zero tolerance policy is a bit....harsh. Warnings are fine, but I feel like strikes should be saved for repeated action.

 

 

Well this isn't the first time this has happened, so obviously simple warnings aren't working.

 

 

 

I wouldn't say Zero Tolerance, just a little less leniency; I like how laid back this site is, but not if everyone is just gonna act the same way with no repercussions other than a slap on the wrist.

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So basically you guys want a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to discussion, spam, and reporting for the old members (which is basically what Roarey did, although anecdotes say old SSMB was way, way worse). Essentially, a strike for every infraction, and when you hit three in a two-month period you're gone?

I wouldn't say zero-tolerance policy, because that's too draconian, and then we'll end up complaining about it not being fair. Nevermind that we do get some newbies who are blatant dicks and it's the oldbie who wants them to stop being a dick. (irony much? lol)

 

But I think you shouldn't be so lenient on old members being elitist towards newer members. Basically, if you see an old member just being a dick to a new member (or to each other, considering how we like to hold ourselves as the grey area of the fandom), you should really get the oldbie to cut it out. And when I say being a dick, I mean in teasing the newbie for not knowing how things go around, not if they're annoyed by the newbie (which happens to many of us). If they're annoyed, just tell them to cool off, and if they still cut up, then threaten to strike them.

 

It goes without saying that as established members, we should hold ourselves to a high standard of an example for newbies who wish to stay with us. It's one thing to be annoyed, but we shouldn't go trashing on other members for it. Many of us like to hold ourselves up on critical thinking, so let's try and maintain that standard with ourselves, shall we?

 

 

EDIT:

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

Newbie A likes a character

Oldbie B hates the character

Oldbie B belittles Newbie A for liking the character

Mod C tells Oldbie B to stop being a dick

 

Works in reverse:

Newbie A thinks a character sucks

Oldbie B thinks the character is cool

Oldbie B knows why Newbie A doesn't like the character and agrees that their are problems with them

Newbie A thinks that people who likes what he doesn't are zealous fanboys for the character

Oldbie B as a fan of the character, and not a fanboy, doesn't appreciate the comment

Mod C tells Newbie A to stop being a dick

 

In the first scenario, the oldbie knows better. If you have to tell them to stop a second time, threaten to strike them if you come in a third (or even a second if it's severe enough).

 

In the second scenario, the newbie doesn't know better. Depending on their attitude, chances are other members will try to help him know the ropes, or chew him out for the attitude. Tell the newbie how things work here, and if they ignore it, proceed as normal, warning them that the third time will be a strike.

 

I have a hard time believing it should take anymore than once or twice (ideally once) for a mod to get them to stop, and neither one should have any excuses by the third time you tell them.

 

Edit 2:

Also, while this may seem obvious, I think it should be emphasize that when you have members annoyed, you should try de-escalating tensions rather than snapping at them to cool off, otherwise there's a half-and-half chance they might not calm down regardless. And that one may need more patience than just 3 warnings to tell them to stop if it worsens.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonîc
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There's ways to express yourself about things you don't like without making everyone that does like it feel like shit about themselves.

 

This so much. Other than my interests slowly changing over the years, ^that's pretty much the main reason I've been posting less in Sonic-related threads or talking about the games, and generally lurking alot more in recent years beyond a small 2 cents here and there, because tbh, currently the series as a whole is moving in directions I don't personally like, and after I say my piece on things I'm always looking over my shoulder waiting to be talked down to or belittled for not having a popular view on this that or the other. Even in the statuses it tends to happen from time to time. So what do I do? I withdraw; just keep quiet and stay on the sidelines most of the time. Maybe I don't have the thickest skin around, and maybe I can be pretty passive and not let things get to me these days as much as others, but is the added hostility and aggression really necessary? Why can't it simply be: "Personally I disagree but alright that's cool." Why does it have to be "Well you're wrong but alright that's cool. ;)" or even "Wow, you're so fucking wrong. Have a seat and let me explain you why that's bullshit."

 

Not talking about anyone in particular, but I see this sort of thing alot. Isn't it so much easier to just converse calmly without all the added aggression and snark? Did the other person's opinion on a subject hurt you that deeply? Did the person's view take away your ability to shrug it off and continue liking what you like? I just see so much of these sorts of things these days and it does get pretty tiring.

 

[/rare Ferno rant in a state-of-the-forums thread]

Edited by Inferno
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I also think there should be some red flags, regardless of the scenario, that moderators should crackdown on immediately.

 

One of the biggest red flags is character bashing, because in a forum where people who like or dislike a character can actually get along with each other when they're forced to not be a jerkass, character bashing can automatically lead to flame wars and jerkassery behavior. I don't care whether it's Silver, Big, or Shadow, we shouldn't have any of that nonsense; by all means, dislike the character, but don't be a dick about it (obviously).

 

Anything else?

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonîc
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I don't really think that's fair. People stating how they feel about a character shouldn't be punished.

 

Unless you mean ones that are like "Fuck anyone who likes this character, I have no idea what you see in them." or something.

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When I think of how we should be acting or treating new members, my mind always seems to go to High School Sports. If you are a veteran, you want to set a good example for the newbies so they take after you and get better. Yeah it will take work from both the veteran and the newbie, but over time, with practice, the newbie can become what the team expects from them. Comparing this to here is pretty simple: We are the veteran player and the newbie is well, the newbie. Together we form the team. If we want to be a good team, we need to help eachother get better. Sure there will be those rough times, but overall, we need to help eachother whenever we see them make a mistake. If a veteran sees another veteran dick around, just a friendly reminder that we need to set the example would probably do wonders.

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I don't really think that's fair. People stating how they feel about a character shouldn't be punished.

 

Unless you mean ones that are like "Fuck anyone who likes this character, I have no idea what you see in them." or something.

I mean more of the latter, the "fuck anyone who likes this character" and what not. I did say "Dislike the character, but don't be a dick about it" in that same paragraph discouraging bashing characters. XD

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonîc
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