Attitudes and Respect

[Chaos Warp]

Then you are saying it, because it's not a newbie's fault in the slightest that the old guard members can't help but be assholes in response to topics they don't deem worthy of being on SSMB.

We can't change people. People are stubborn. We've had topics like this over and over again and nothing has changed, sadly. I'm saying newbies can avoid the situation in the first place if they just read the rules. 

[Vertekins]

We can't change people. People are stubborn. We've had topics like this over and over again and nothing has changed, sadly. I'm saying newbies can avoid the situation in the first place if they just read the rules. 

 

Only a suggestion. If they can't follow rules and won't 'change' for them out of arrogance and self-entitlement then the logout button is up there.

 

I'm sick and tired of hearing this 'holier than newbies' attitude.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Why exactly should we make visible trash posts and warnings aside from publicly embarrassing members? We're not here to make members feel like shit about themselves, when we give someone a strike, it's an action that we want only the member in question and us mods to reflect on. We have maintained from day one that mod actions always happen for a reason, but you are never entitled to know any behind the scenes stuff.

It's not for embarrassment purposes, especially since deleted posts moved to the Trash are still editable (so if you really did something stupid you can go and EDIT: Nevermind). It's just a good exemplary repository of "Don't do this, mmk?" I honestly think keeping everything this hush-hush only builds up passive-aggressive anger and other such feelings, instead of letting them out in the open where they are easily solved and don't stew on their awfulness.

I'm not even talking about being entitled to know why the mods do something (especially since I subscribe to Retro's "This is a Dictatorship, not a Democracy" policy of how to govern a forum), just... I don't know, I guess it really does sound mean-spirited, but I think it works. Eh.

EDIT: Also yeah, Verte reminds me that newbies should have the same attitude upon them as veterans- read the rules, follow them, that's it. If they mess up it's on their heads, just like with a veteran, if they do something great it's on their heads, just like a veteran. No differences other than the inherent risk of not knowing how to swim through this sea, but in that case they should learn to lurk before posting- but, once more, that's not a rule, so it can't be something that they must be punished for not doing. Just a good advice.

I hope I haven't muddled what I was saying.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Captain Harlock

[Chaos Warp]

Only a suggestion. If they can't follow rules and won't 'change' for them out of arrogance and self-entitlement then the logout button is up there.

 

I'm sick and tired of hearing this 'holier than newbies' attitude.

In the end you can't force someone to hit the logout button. Point still stands.

[Noir]

We can't change people. People are stubborn. We've had topics like this over and over again and nothing has changed, sadly. I'm saying newbies can avoid the situation in the first place if they just read the rules. 

 

I'm probably treading all over the notion of a friendlier atmosphere, but can you get this cynical attitude the hell out of here? Nothing changes because stubborn people like you want to argue in a circle about how "Nothing changes! Why's this time any different?!" instead of actually making an effort to improve.

 

Being an asshole is a fucking choice, you can't boil it down to "we can't change people," and throw your hands up in the air while whining because anyone would even suggest conducting ourselves better as a whole. I don't even know if you're part of the problem, I don't read posts here enough, I don't know what behavior you have, but in this thread you're certainly being ridiculous. Stop being so adamant that it's not anyone's fault but new members - we all know better than to treat someone poorly for making a mistake, especially when they're new, and there's no way to argue around that.

[Tornado]

I'm not even talking about being entitled to know why the mods do something (especially since I subscribe to Retro's "This is a Dictatorship, not a Democracy" policy of how to govern a forum), just... I don't know, I guess it really does sound mean-spirited, but I think it works. Eh.

 

As indispensible as Retro is to the Sonic community, it's also a shithole to be a member of unless you are part of the popular clique. A public shaming board doesn't help. Only letting members exist on the forum in the first place until they prove themselves doesn't help. And niether of those things would help here.

 

 

In the end you can't force someone to hit the logout button. Point still stands.

 

I think I very much do have that ability.

[Chaos Warp]

 

 

 

I think I very much do have that ability.

I mean if people aren't going far enough to break rules. 

[Tornado]

Being outright mean to other members and derailing their topics and posts, usually for reasoning no more substantial because they had the audacity of being a new member, is breaking the rules.

 

 

And the level help topic is far from the first time it has happened.

[Mauro Fonseca]

As indispensible as Retro is to the Sonic community, it's also a shithole to be a member of unless you are part of the popular clique. A public shaming board doesn't help. Only letting members exist on the forum in the first place until they prove themselves doesn't help. And niether of those things would help here.

I didn't suggest the second thing, even if I do think it helps- I even specifically said I think Newbies should be treated the same as Veterans. As for your first point, I'll disagree heartily by virtue of not being part of the popular clique and having no problems being there.

But that's something to another day, my point was that I thought a Trash subforum would help, which you disagree with and that's fine, but even that was just a subpoint to the fact I think what the forum needs is just more explicit warnings and bannings and not subsequent threads like these that treat a forum collectively throwing a childish tantrum of sorts as a national disaster. Maybe a simple edit in a post saying "User was warned for this post" or something.

[Chaos Warp]

I'm probably treading all over the notion of a friendlier atmosphere, but can you get this cynical attitude the hell out of here? Nothing changes because stubborn people like you want to argue in a circle about how "Nothing changes! Why's this time any different?!" instead of actually making an effort to improve.

 

Being an asshole is a fucking choice, you can't boil it down to "we can't change people," and throw your hands up in the air while whining because anyone would even suggest conducting ourselves better as a whole. I don't even know if you're part of the problem, I don't read posts here enough, I don't know what behavior you have, but in this thread you're certainly being ridiculous. Stop being so adamant that it's not anyone's fault but new members - we all know better than to treat someone poorly for making a mistake, especially when they're new, and there's no way to argue around that.

You have to understand my cynicism thought: it just comes from what I've seen. I've seen this topic happen several times and nothing has changed. And I agree with Harlock: these topics just blow things up too much anyway. 

[Sean]

So why are you here if you don't want to do your part in maintaining a friendly community? I legitimately do not understand people's utter refusal to change. This is why to this day we still have shit like racism, sexism, homophobia, and other terrible things in the world, and you don't want to do as much as try harder to keep up a friendly, welcoming atmosphere? Is it really that hard? Are you so jaded that this is the way you're content with keeping things?

[Mauro Fonseca]

I do think you're overexaggerating by comparing "not wanting to maintain a friendly community" (which isn't even what Chaos was saying, I think? It isn't what I was saying) with basically being Hitler, but I also think a community made friendly by force is evolving SSMB to SWMB- The Stepford Wives Message Board.

 

Being friendly should be encouraged, not enforced.

[Tara]

I do think you're overexaggerating by comparing "not wanting to maintain a friendly community" (which isn't even what Chaos was saying, I think? It isn't what I was saying) with basically being Hitler, but I also think a community made friendly by force is evolving SSMB to SWMB- The Stepford Wives Message Board.

 

Being friendly should be encouraged, not enforced.

I think you're confusing being "friendly" with being... I'm sure there's a word for it.  Inhumanly friendly?  Like, unnaturally not like a person?

 

You can be blunt and still be friendly.  You can be a tad rude and still be friendly.  You can make jokes about someone and still be friendly towards them.  It's like Pelly said several pages back, though.  I don't think the community on whole is deliberately malicious.  I just think that a lot of members don't know where to draw the line between friendly jabs and flat out lampooning upon someone's honest efforts.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Akito

[Noir]

You have to understand my cynicism thought: it just comes from what I've seen. I've seen this topic happen several times and nothing has changed. And I agree with Harlock: these topics just blow things up too much anyway. 

 

I've been here since 2006, I've seen everything you have and more. You're not rebutting my point, you're enforcing it - nothing changes because all you want to do is stand by this idea that it's a hopeless effort when it's not at all.

 

Would you like to know how I introduced myself on this forum? I joined when I was eleven years old with some stupid "Naruto character the Hedgehog" name and said "hello world, I'm here from the 4kids forums!" Then I proceeded to post shitty fanfiction and, as this was during the Sonic 06 hype, vehemently defended this ridiculous theory I concocted that Blaze and Shadow are Silver and Mephiles's parents. I was a bit of a disphit.

 

Can you guess how I was treated? People gave me pointers on improving my writing, people welcomed me and encouraged me to fit in despite hailing from 4kids of all places, and people shot down my theory, sure - but never mocked me for it.

 

Had I been that eleven year-old today and acted the same, I would not still be on this forum after seven years because I guarantee this lot would have torn me to shreds.

 

The point I'm making here is that this atmosphere isn't some unchangeable status quo that we have to be complacent with; it hasn't always been so vile and there's not a reason in the world it can't stop being that way. You are literally sitting here using the same logic that tries to justify blaming rape victims for their assault: "If they didn't want it, they shouldn't have worn that outfit!" or likewise, "If new members don't want to be made out to feel like utter shit they shouldn't act in such a way that regulars harp on them until they make a goddamned meme out of the person!" And don't give me any "did you really just compare rape with being mean on the internet" shit because no, I didn't - I'm comparing the train of thought that someone hurting someone else should be the fault of the one harmed.

 

And this notion that making this public creates this negative aura around the whole forum? No way. This crappy atmosphere has permeated the whole place for months and a lot of us are sick of it. Seeing Chris make this thread was a breath of fresh air, it's a promise that there are people who want to improve this site, not a gavel coming down over everyone's heads. This behavior needs to be publicly called out so that everyone is aware of the part that they have to contribute towards this goal.

[Tara]

And this notion that making this public creates this negative aura around the whole forum? No way. This crappy atmosphere has permeated the whole place for months and a lot of us are sick of it. Seeing Chris make this thread was a breath of fresh air, it's a promise that there are people who want to improve this site, not a gavel coming down over everyone's heads. This behavior needs to be publicly called out so that everyone is aware of the part that they have to contribute towards this goal.

I know I've commented on the topic of this being public before, but I just wanted to add that from personal experience, it's usually topics like these being the reason I might join a forum to begin with.  I'd rather be able to see how the staff handles things than have it hidden from me.  That way I know how to act and what will happen if I don't act a certain way before I join.  Making it public only helps newcomers.  "Learn from the mistakes of others" is the message I'm getting at here.

 

Of course, not every newcomer does this, I know.  But as others have stated, if newcomers don't want to listen to the advice of members and staff (assuming they're not being treated like dimwits for making a simple mistake), then that is on their own head and no one should be blamed for it.  Conversely, if one or more members wants to act up and treat a new member like a dimwit, then that's on their heads as well.  So I'll agree with Harlock in that regard.

[Mauro Fonseca]

This behavior needs to be publicly called out so that everyone is aware of the part that they have to contribute towards this goal.

 

Completely agreed. Just think that doing it through this kind of thread is silly.

 

It's like a parent that lets the kids do drugs normally, but once a month will spank them because "you need to be called out on it!". No, you call them out on it every time.

[Vertekins]

On the contrary, I think this topic may be more effective than previous topics that were created for the specific purpose of calling-out the atmosphere here because it's gotten more to the point regarding the shitty attitudes. That topic the other day was one of the most starkest examples so far of it and the way that's it's being called-out is what needed to be done, plain and simple.

[Speederino]

It's like a parent that lets the kids do drugs normally, but once a month will spank them because "you need to be called out on it!". No, you call them out on it every time.

 

Who says they're not being called out on it? Just because we can't see mods taking action against the offenders publicly doesn't mean it's not happening behind the scenes. Posts get reported, strikes and warnings get given out For that matter, this is more like a case of drug habits spiraling out of control and people trying to hold an intervention, one that keeps happening because the drug abusers apparently aren't listening. Threads like this are really, truly necessary in making people publicly aware that there's a big problem that needs to be changed.

[Crash]

I'm just going to say it, it's been this way for a while.

 

I'm not sure how long, but ever since I joined back in September, I noticed it. I'm not saying it put me off, but I certainly had trouble. I posted once or twice a day, but I didn't lay a finger in the status updates. I would read some of them and not get a nice vibe, it took me about a month to actually settle down in this place. It was only then that I realised that everyone here is nice, even if they do get into arguments about things.

 

What I'm trying to say is, I'm all for making this place a friendly place for new people, because, unless you are the type of person who tries to see the good in everything, you're just going to end up leaving as soon as you join.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I took the time to glance at the topic that lead to this one.

 

No seriously, what in the fuck is wrong with you guys? You mean a simple "There's tutorials all around the net" was too hard to say? Or even linking to sites that the OP could have used? I'm mean sure, there was bound to be one person to make a light hearted joke, but then it just got ridiculous. No wonder they're addressing bandwagoning as well.

 

Yeah, I think I'm gonna stand by all that I said before. We can't be so lenient to older members that know better.

[Blue Blood]

This topic saddens me. SSMB simply isn't the place it used to be. I know I've always been one of the more stuck up, irritable and stern people here; I'm pretty sure nobody will argue that. The reason I loved this place though is because it always used to be friendly. Now it's more like some elite-clique where nobody's allowed in unless they meet a strict criteria. What, Retro's bad for screening new members? People here take it upon themselves to do the exact same thing, and in an ridiculously more demeaning way to boot. I don't even have many friends here any more, because they've left or grown tired of posting because of what's become people's attitudes. The topic in question that broke this the camel's back is downright embarrassing. It's so unsurprising that this place has a bad reputation now. 

 

This topic needed to be made though. It's hopefully going to make people rethink their behaviour. The thing is, we've had cases like this before. We end up with a big discussion topic and then after a brief quiet period, things start to get bad again. People carry on bandwagoning anyway. I don't know how and if the general behaviour could possibly change. We've all got to take it upon ourselves and well... I just don't see it happening. Prove me wrong, SSMB.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Blue Blood

[Komodin]

You have to understand my cynicism thought: it just comes from what I've seen. I've seen this topic happen several times and nothing has changed. And I agree with Harlock: these topics just blow things up too much anyway. 

 

Well, with this sort of thinking -- specifically, the notion that "no one's gonna change, so why should we even bother attempting to change?" -- then nothing will change.

 

This isn't the sort of thing that we should throw up our arms and give up on, especially when it's causing so much unnecessary trouble and ill will with everyone here. I'm sorry, but to be frank, I'm just tired of all of the cynicism, mean snarking, and in-fighting that's been going on here for a while now, and the notion that we shouldn't do anything about it bothers me to no end. It's just pointless excuse-making made out of some desire to shift the blame away from oneself, and I honestly hate that.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Komodin

[Frogging101]

We can't change people. People are stubborn. We've had topics like this over and over again and nothing has changed, sadly. I'm saying newbies can avoid the situation in the first place if they just read the rules.

How about instead, people just change their reaction to someone breaking the rules?

If a newbie makes a shitty topic, don't go in and say "hey just to let you know, your topic is shitty", whether it's said directly or indirectly (such as going in and turning the whole thing into a farce with joke replies and dogpiling). Instead, press the report button and let the mods know that the topic is shitty. Part of the job of the staff is enforcing the rules, and if someone's breaking them, let them know and they will deal with it because that is their job.

Taking matters into your own hands, and then having everyone else do the same, just makes the community look unforgiving and mean.

[Blue Blood]

I have question. Do we really need the likes/rep system? I think it's a good bit of fun and I'd certainly rather have people liking a post than clogging up a topic with 101 ways to say "I agree". But does anyone else feel that a lot of the time the reason we get bandwagoning and the general bad attitudes is because people are fishing for likes? It might well be worth getting shot of I think, so people wouldn't be tempted by the the promise of a popular star. 

[Kuzu]

I have question. Do we really need the likes/rep system? I think it's a good bit of fun and I'd certainly rather have people liking a post than clogging up a topic with 101 ways to say "I agree". But does anyone else feel that a lot of the time the reason we get bandwagoning and the general bad attitudes is because people are fishing for likes? It might well be worth getting shot of I think, so people wouldn't be tempted by the the promise of a popular star. 

 

Its the exact reason we got rid of the dislike system isn't it.