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Attitudes and Respect


Chris

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Yanno, we're not asking you guys to figure out how to terraform Jupiter here. We're asking you to take a few seconds to not post assholish things. It is literally not that difficult. Over-complicating it with excuses about new members being the real problem (they are literally irrelevant to the issue, even when they do break the rules, because them breaking the rules doesn't somehow give you the right to be a dick) or obfuscating the point by trying to say making a topic about this is the problem is not helping matters. There is not solvable issue that got solved by not talking about it. That is bonkers.

And I gotta say, I took offense to the idea that staff don't call out this behavior enough. What the fuck do you think I did two days ago in the original topic? What the fuck do you think I did when I saw you guys pissing on that kid who made that video? Do you think we're not doing our jobs or what? These topics aren't made for everyday business; they're made when we feel things have come to a head regardless.

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I have question. Do we really need the likes/rep system? I think it's a good bit of fun and I'd certainly rather have people liking a post than clogging up a topic with 101 ways to say "I agree". But does anyone else feel that a lot of the time the reason we get bandwagoning and the general bad attitudes is because people are fishing for likes? It might well be worth getting shot of I think, so people wouldn't be tempted by the the promise of a popular star. 

Other members like Verte have been pointing out how people often make snarking posts simply for rep-whoring and popularity. I think that the rep often amplifies things.

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I have question. Do we really need the likes/rep system? I think it's a good bit of fun and I'd certainly rather have people liking a post than clogging up a topic with 101 ways to say "I agree". But does anyone else feel that a lot of the time the reason we get bandwagoning and the general bad attitudes is because people are fishing for likes? It might well be worth getting shot of I think, so people wouldn't be tempted by the the promise of a popular star.

Umm... so, uh, would it be considered hypocritical to like this post?

I mean, don't get me wrong. I do love rep. Honestly. I love being able to give silent kudos to someone who writes a particularly well-written or hilarious post. I like being able to agree with someone's position without needlessly posting the exact same thoughts. I love giving support to individuals in Personal Discussion without reiterating advice. And I definitely love the miniature high I and others get whenever someone likes your post.

But I think some of the reasons I like it reinforce the exact same problems and attitudes we've discussed in this thread and in others. As Verte put it earlier, people whore for likes. If one member posts a humourous reply that receives a much-coveted popular star, some people try to build on the joke in hopes some of the likes rub off on them. If one member posts an opinion that doesn't fall in line with the popular sentiment, people often jump at the opportunity to tear appart the post in hopes others bandwagon rep around them, even when someone's already taken the liberty to express the exact same argument. Obviously, rep isn't the cause of SSMB's problems; people acting like asshats are. But I do think it plays a role in fueling the flames, so to speak.

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I know it's already been said that newbies aren't the main cause of the problems the SSMB is currently dealing with, but certain posts reminded me of how we introduced new members to the Sonic Paradox forums. Upon registering they were redirected here - http://sonicparadox.net/pages/welcome/ - a lighthearted introduction to some of the rules of the forum and the basics that needed to be followed to make a good first impression. Mods would then elaborate further rules to members should they post all in caps, overuse smileys etc. It certainly helped to keep things more manageable when the forum was at its peak in popularity. 

 

People come to forums like these to have fun and make new friends, and I think knowing that you've got to follow a set of rules to a T comes off as a bit intimidating. Hell, I've made my first mistake since I joined here and I've felt like complete shit outside of the forums for the last few days. The best method I've seen mods deal with topics getting out of control? "Okay guys, let's get back on topic." The Xbox One topic for example was enjoyable for a majority of members because they could let their guard down and post stupid, but on topic, shit. When it got out of hand a simple "Alright everyone, you've had your fun. Let's see some serious discussion" usually sorted things out. Obviously shit like 'that' topic has occurred on more than one occasion which is why nepenthe's post in there comes off as being quite hostile, but I'm sure it could have still been useful after a stern reminder of how to act on the forums and by moving the topic forward. The stupid posts were done and out of the way and the topic could continue with it's desired purpose. 

 

And I see likes as a popularity indicator so I'd love to see them removed and user awards being reworked. The majority of your posts are well thought out and you welcome discussion/debate freely? You are awarded for contributing to the forum in the best possible way and members can see that you don't have 15,000+ likes because you posted something like Sonic gumball eyes. 

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Awards are mainly given out for participating in and winning contests, not for necessarily posting normally. Why would those need to be reworked to be based around forum contribution? What would that even detail?

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Here's a relevant post I wrote a couple of weeks ago:

 

 

Going off from what Verte and Kiah were talking about, I know I don't really have friends here, because other than the posts I make, I keep to myself. I don't PM and I don't use status updates regularly. That's my own problem, but I just wanted to address that it would be a lot easier if people were more open here.

 

I do feel there are clicks here. Now, let me explain something: I am not saying we should be a big, happy church and everyone is friends equally with each other, but at the same time, I feel like there's a difference between a group of friends and cliques.

 

A group of friends bond well but can get along with the rest of the crowd. A clique is more segregated and will stand up for one of their own, even when he or she is wrong.

 

And that happens a lot here; people play favorites, and people will cyber-gang up on someone, either by the rep system as I talked before on another thread, and also through status updates. Do I expect anything to change? Hell no. I gave up a long time ago.

 

I am here for the same reason Verte is: I like the overall atmosphere and I feel like I have learned a few good things here I could not learn anywhere else. But when the shit hits the fan, I just wish people would just learn where their shit belongs and flush it down.

 

 

Like I said before, the idea that the staff "scapegoated" those in that thread is absurd. This has been going on for a while, and if it didn't happen with that thread, it would have happened with another.

 

You know, I was wondering: what if the post count were to be HIDDEN? Why do I need to know that Member X has 2 posts and Member Y has 10k? Everyone should be treated equally.

 

I think that maybe, it would be a good idea if new members could have the word "New" under their username for a period of a week so we know to be patient with them, but then afterwards, we should all be just members and nothing else.

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I don't see how advocating for equality by saying that we should get rid if post count (which I think is a pretty benign sign of popularity) isn't in a conflict if interests with branding new members with a "new" tag. If we want people to be on the same footing, then members should simply be called members regardless of when they sign up. If anything, calling them out like that is just going to make them more enticing lunchmeat and immediately shoot down their credibility. You know how much shit people get on here for supposedly being from the Sega Forums, even if there's no blatant proof that they came from there? Considering there's already a sizeable portion of people who feel new members are to blame for any of this, I would advise against that.

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I did consider the implications of a "new" tag being counter-productive due to targeting new members. I personally meant as a means to remind us that "hey guys, let's make this person feel welcome" with no malice whatsoever; but if the cons outweigh the pros, I understand that it would not be worth it.

 

I understand why you would feel that the post count is benign in some aspects, as I do too; but the con that I see and I hope you do too is that the same way that long-term members, with 1000+ posts (I am almost there BTW) would be able to demonstrate to new members that the way we conduct ourselves could be followed by them, there is a bias in which some people, when in doubt of who's right or wrong in an argument, would choose to side with the member with the most posts, because numbers.

 

Like I mentioned, I didn't mean to alienate them with a "new" tag but rather be a reminder to "not get too friendly'. Either way, they were mere suggestions and the truth is I am brainstorming out of desperation, because as I mentioned before, I am tired of the overall atmosphere and it's very difficult for me to just sit and wait, so I keep throwing ideas, hoping that one makes sense.

 

Sorry if I came off contradicting myself.

Edited by tenchibr
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You know how much shit people get on here for supposedly being from the Sega Forums, even if there's no blatant proof that they came from there? 

 

You know, I haven't much good things to comment on in regards to that message board nowadays, but seeing people insults others for (supposedly) being from there especially bugs me to no end. I mean, I'm from the Sega Forums -- to hear some people here talk, I should feel ashamed for being a(n ex-) member there, and that's not right.

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Awards are mainly given out for participating in and winning contests, not for necessarily posting normally. Why would those need to be reworked to be based around forum contribution? What would that even detail?

 

Maybe create some awards aimed at the post side of contributing?  Like I said, say the majority of your posts are well written and show that you have put time and effort in to them. You are awarded for doing so as you are setting an example as to the type of posts that are approved of. Those that contribute and encourage discussion in a positive manner. Say you welcome a certain amount of new members to the forum and make them feel at home? Or report so many topics that have conflict, spam or are not necessary? They would be incentives for members to go that one step further. Staff would monitor posts and topics as usual and take note of members who are consistent, and when they feel that user has done enough they then award them, or something to that extent anyway (I hate explaining when I'm tired -_-) . 

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Maybe create some awards aimed at the post side of contributing?  Like I said, say the majority of your posts are well written and show that you have put time and effort in to them. You are awarded for doing so as you are setting an example as to the type of posts that are approved of. Those that contribute and encourage discussion in a positive manner. Say you welcome a certain amount of new members to the forum and make them feel at home? Or report so many topics that have conflict, spam or are not necessary? They would be incentives for members to go that one step further. Staff would monitor posts and topics as usual and take note of members who are consistent, and when they feel that user has done enough they then award them, or something to that extent anyway (I hate explaining when I'm tired sleep.png) . 

 

We're not in school here- staff aren't supposed to be monitoring us and rewarding us for good behaviour. People just need to behave themselves and follow the rules that are clearly laid out. 

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We're not in school here- staff aren't supposed to be monitoring us and rewarding us for good behaviour. People just need to behave themselves and follow the rules that are clearly laid out. 

 

Except that's not happening though is it if this is a reoccurring problem. Do you have any suggestions? I'm just trying to add some creative input.

 

Edit: And by as you say "good behaviour", it's not doing as your told and well done you get a gold star, it's by having those people who are willing to go the extra mile to keep the forum enjoyable for everyone else. 

Edited by Stasis
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I'm just going to say that I've come from a forum where awards for doing things for the community were at one point a thing.  It's not a very good idea.  It just establishes inferiority complexes to those who don't get awards.  Plus, anyone who truly deserves those rewards would probably not need a reward to justify his/her good contributions to the community.

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Edit: And by as you say "good behaviour", it's not doing as your told and well done you get a gold star, it's by having those people who are willing to go the extra mile to keep the forum enjoyable for everyone else. 

 

They already exist, and they have an award too:

 

ssmb-staff.jpg

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They already exist, and they have an award too:

 

ssmb-staff.jpg

It's not that I don't appreciate what the staff do for the community, but being part of a different user group is not and should not be a reward, as you seem to suggest.  Yes, positive contributions and good behavior might result in promotion, but I would hope those are not the sole defining factors.

Edited by Akito
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I kinda disagree with the idea that new members are always treated like shit and that the board is an elitist clique. Take SheWhoRantsTooMuch or RosaRosaRosalina for example, they're new, and they weren't treated badly. I remember my early days here, I wasn't treated badly. There's an issue here but it's definitely more complicated than "the forum regulars are an elitist clique who treat newcomers like shit".

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It's not that I don't appreciate what the staff do for the community, but being part of a different user group is not and should not be a reward, as you seem to suggest.  Yes, positive contributions and good behavior might result in promotion, but I would hope those are not the sole defining factors.

 

Once again I failed to place my comment in context.

 

My point was that there are already people that do what you are asking, the "award" comment was sarcastic on my part, but as we all know, the Internet has a hard time translating things unless you add asterisks or "/sarcasm". Sorry the joke fell flat.

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I don't think anyone is making the argument that only new members are treated badly by the existing community. They're merely the subject for this thread due to the initial incident involving a new member.

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Yeah, I don't think it's anything to do with new members causing problems at all, if anything WE'RE scaring them off with our cynicism and awful attitude, I mean occasionally we'll get an actual asshole newbie who comes here and decides to cause hell because we called him out for something, or criticised his work and refused to give asspats, but that's not always the case.

 

I also agree heavily with Blue Blood on the rep system, as nice as it is to be acknowledged for standing ground, writing a good post or nodding in agreement to someone silently, it still causes a LOT of shit and problems, like I don't get why people flock to a Mod's "closure Post" and rep it high, like, what is the point? They're just doing their jobs, they don't need praising for it, and in the past it has lead to some asslicking and don't deny it, but Mods have fished for rep on their own occasions, everyone has, so scrap it all together to eliminate this stupid petty crap.

 

If you want to praise a post, then quote it and say "great post!" and explain why you agree/disagree and continue your post as normal. 

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Once again I failed to place my comment in context.

 

My point was that there are already people that do what you are asking, the "award" comment was sarcastic on my part, but as we all know, the Internet has a hard time translating things unless you add asterisks or "/sarcasm". Sorry the joke fell flat.

Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding! ^^; - Though you must understand that plenty of people do view modship as a reward.  When I was promoted on a board, I received tons of pats on the back and congratulations which were appreciated, but I also got plenty of both resentful and envious remarks from people, wondering why they haven't been promoted yet.  The excuse for which was usually that they "do good" around the board.  So when I read that post, I automatically assumed you were coming from that mindset.  I see what you mean now.

 

... like I don't get why people flock to a Mod's "closure Post" and rep it high, like, what is the point? They're just doing their jobs, they don't need praising for it, and in the past it has lead to some asslicking and don't deny it, but Mods have fished for rep on their own occasions, everyone has, so scrap it all together to eliminate this stupid petty crap.

When I like a staff member's closing post, it's because I very much agree with the reasons it was closed or they announced it in a way that was humorous.  Otherwise, I just shrug and leave it be.  I won't deny that what you just described does take place, but I think there's more to it than just "asslicking."

Edited by Akito
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I also agree heavily with Blue Blood on the rep system, as nice as it is to be acknowledged for standing ground, writing a good post or nodding in agreement to someone silently, it still causes a LOT of shit and problems, like I don't get why people flock to a Mod's "closure Post" and rep it high, like, what is the point? They're just doing their jobs, they don't need praising for it, and in the past it has lead to some asslicking and don't deny it, but Mods have fished for rep on their own occasions, everyone has, so scrap it all together to eliminate this stupid petty crap.

 

If you want to praise a post, then quote it and say "great post!" and explain why you agree/disagree and continue your post as normal.

I don't think removing rep is the right way to go. Honestly, if I were to do what you were suggesting then half my posts would be something like "Great post! I agree for the same reasons you do". In other words it would be a more drawn-out version of "this.". I usually like a post because, well, I like what they said and don't have anything more to add to it.

Also, personally I don't +rep mod action posts for the purpose of asslicking, I like them because I agree with their decision. It's me showing my appreciation for them taking the time out of their day to keep SSMB running smoothly.

Edited by Frogging101
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I don't think removing rep is the right way to go. Honestly, if I were to do what you were suggesting then half my posts would be something like "Great post! I agree for the same reasons you do". In other words it would be a more drawn-out version of "this.". I usually like a post because, well, I like what they said and don't have anything more to add to it.

Also, personally I don't +rep mod action posts for the purpose of asslicking, I like them because I agree with their decision. It's me showing my appreciation for them taking the time out of their day to keep SSMB running smoothly.

 

I don't remember what thread, but I remember voicing my frustration with the rep system, and then a mod told me that rep numbers can be changed to anything, such as Pelly's. I would think that they are e-peen-less. Now whether or not they actually pay attention to the likes that they get is another story entirely and is basically not something I can speak for them.

Edited by tenchibr
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Honestly I'd love if you guys only +rep'd my posts that have thoughtful meaning behind the topic at hand if you agreed with it, like everyone else. There are mods that like seeing their rep increase just like anyone else (including me), and just because we can edit them doesn't mean we just play with it endlessly out of boredom and lols. It's sometimes nice to see your mod actions get a +rep however, usually on those times where I'm not even 100% on my decision, and then getting a few likes kinda helps me feel better that I made the right decision or something, I don't know. I guess I'm a human being too haha.

 

But yeah, I don't really enjoy when I close a topic with something simple like "Yeah don't do this" and then check back an our later to see "Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and 23 others liked this" since it feels really odd.

 

ALL IN ALL, just like a post if you really believe you liked it, lawl.

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