What happened right after the events of Tikal in SA?

[Uraraka]

  
 

 

  Recap:

  In Sonic Adventure, you see pieces of an important story from Angel Island history. These events give an account of a Girl named Tikal, who's father was a power hungry dictator who wanted more power... So he decided to take the Master Emerald.

   When he and his army came to take the emerald, Tikal fearlessly stood between her father and the emerald , acting as a guardian ( theoretically the first). But Tikal was quickly trampled, and then Chaos wreaked his rage on the tribe.  Tikal sealed herself in the M.E.

(this isn't a quote, but I wanted to separate it from my text )

 

  What happened just after this though? Apparently, the tribe ceased to exist all except for Knuckles...But did this happen just after that or slowly over time? What happened then? Do you think maybe Knuckles was born back then, and stored in the Emerald to be a guardian when the Emerald needed one?

[Chaos Warp]

Nothing is really confirmed so this topic is kinda useless fan speculation, something I'm pretty sure we don't allow.

[Uraraka]

Nothing is really confirmed so this topic is kinda useless fan speculation, something I'm pretty sure we don't allow.

 

This topic was Nepenthe approved!

Edited July 20, 2013 by knucklesgirl

[Blacklightning]

You know, I did find it kind of odd, that whole "Knux being the sole survivor thing"... there has to be millienia seperating the first Chaos incident and present day, so I find it really hard to believe that the clan wasn't still operating to the extent of enabling an ancestor that far removed.

 

Of course, beyond that it's hard to say - that's all one can really surmise from Knux's backstory, and to delve further would open the floodgates to fanon. Which I'm sure can make for some discussion, but honestly, it's not my specialty.

[Chaos Warp]

 

This topic was Nepenthe approved!

 

It was? How do I know you're not lying...............

[Jeffhog]

How I see it...

 

 

-Echidna civilization from thousands of years ago mindlessly attacks the Chao at the Emerald Altar while trying to gain the Emeralds' power - most of the tribe drowns/is slain by the angered Chao Guardian;

-Perfect Chaos is sealed by Tikal, Chief Pachacamac's daughter;

-With Chaos and Tikal sealed within the Master Emerald, the survivors are either taken to the skies with Angel Island or left below on the Earth;

-The 7 Chaos Emeralds scatter for the first time;

 

-Remains of the Echidna Civilization on Earth leave murals within what remains of their home, warning of the God of Destruction (Lost World pyramid);

-They disband and begin their search for the Chaos Emeralds to ensure that they do not fall in the wrong hands, 6 of them reunite on what is South Island today (Sonic 1) while the 7th is sealed within Westside Island (Sonic 2);

 

-Remains of the Echidna Civilization on Angel Island seal the Altar within the Hidden Palace and assigns a guardian for the Master Emerald to keep others from unleashing the monster that could potentially bring about the end of the world;

-Tribe manages to survive and expand slightly, but resources wane over time

-Thousands of years later, almost present day, the dying Echidna tribe is now reduced to a single digit amount of members (enter Gerald Robotnik and the HP mural inspired Ultimate Life Form);

-Decades later, last of his tribe, Knuckles becomes the guardian of the Master Emerald at a very young age, living alone on Angel Island. A few years later, the Death Egg crashes.

 

At least that's how I see it.

 

This... is just a snippet of a post I'm preparing for the General Headcanon topic.

[Uraraka]

It was? How do I know you're not lying...............

Sent Today, 11:26 PM

Nepenthe, on 19 Jul 2013 - 23:26, said:

 

 

It was a PM I used to make sure .... Now , back to the topic

[Tara]

You know, I did find it kind of odd, that whole "Knux being the sole survivor thing"... there has to be millienia seperating the first Chaos incident and present day, so I find it really hard to believe that the clan wasn't still operating to the extent of enabling an ancestor that far removed.

Yeah, that's been my problem from the beginning, and it really upset me how SA1 sort of brushed off this huge piece of lore with the "perhaps it's better I don't know" dribble, all the while they're exploiting the "enigmatic" and "mysterious" past of a character whose backstory was explained in the very game he debuted in!

 

I seriously doubt Sega put any thought into this, but I'm more than open to seeing some fanon explanations.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Akito

[Vertekins]

Additionally, the Chao were pushed to the brink of extinction either because a lot of them were killed during Pachacamac's siege of the shrine or because their guardian was trapped inside the Master Emerald. However, their numbers steadily grew when they found new places to live. So I guess that every Chao is a direct descendant of the ones who survived Pachacamac and Chaos.

 

The specific purpose of the Master Emerald guardians was making sure that the beast within it would never again be able to wreak havoc. Considering that Knuckles expresses complete shock and unfamiliarity with Chaos when it is released, it's safe to say that the original purpose of the guardians was lost to time.

[Uraraka]

   I have a theory, that maybe, shortly after that time, The Echidnas received a prophecy about a hedgehog that will save the Island from an Egg.(sh3) They also swore to protect the Emerald until that day. but they kept dying out, and then, out of last hope, they placed a baby inside the Emerald, hoping that one day, When the Emerald knew it would need a guardian (it exists in past, present and future (Sonic Rivals)), He would be "Born" as Guardian of the Master Emerald. It was like, an apology or something like that

[Jeffhog]

Not so hot on a prodigal son of the Master Emerald idea, but I can agree on the prophecy.

The Master Emerald exists in all points in time as Rivals would put it, and I can imagine that the minds of guardians, if not a good number of the civilisation, were influenced by such a property, thus leading them to see these prophecies and leaving their foretellings throughout the Hidden Palace. If not being prophets through visions, then prophets through seeing it from the Master Emerald itself, not unlike it showing Knuckles the Egg Carrier when he sought the last few pieces in Sonic Adventure.

[TailsTellsTales]

That is great question perhaps if there was baby Knuckles and he was saved or something. Baby Knuckles try imagining that picture!

[Indigo Rush]

I think according to a game manual, there are only a few thousand years between the cataclysm depicted in Sonic Adventure and the appearance of Knuckles as the lone remaining echidna (at least to our knowledge). In those years, many things could have happened. We know that Sky Sanctuary looks like a highly advanced civilization from the past (according to Sonic Generation's art direction, at least) so it's possible that the echidna race was thriving fairly well for many centuries before a potential off-screen catastrophe took place to seriously wear down their numbers to a point that Knuckles and his progenitors are the lone survivors.

 

WARNING: CRAPPY INDIGO-TIER FANFICTION SILLINESS AHEAD! PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK.

 

I would like to speculate that perhaps they caught some kind of disease or virus that only a few were immune to. NIDS, perhaps? It would link the 2 Adventure games in another new interesting way, and it would give just enough time (50 or so years) between the outbreak and Knuckles' debut appearance to justify such a rapid decline in population. How did it get there? Prof Gerald Robotnik could have been snooping as usual i see around the ruins stealthily to find clues to creating the ultimate life form. Carrying his science gear with him as well as samples of the deadly virus, at some point accidentally breaking a vial which caused the outbreak. Only direct guardians were protected because of some connection to the Chaos Emeralds, something that could explain Shadow's design to use Chaos powers so well - it's that kind of connection that makes them immune. 

 

Buuuuuuut SEGA would never go that deep in this day and age.

[Diogenes]

Here's the relevant backstory from the Japanese Sonic 3 manual:

In an ancient time, the "mystery island" was part of the main continent. A people with an extraordinary culture inhabited it. That civilization had built a peaceful and happy society using the energy of something they called "The Mighty Stone". But at a certain point, a faction of dark-minded elders tried to steal the energy of the stone, and by accident made that energy explode.

The civilization was wiped out in a second, erased from history. Time passed, and a god descended from the sky to the newly created "mystery island". The sky god restored part of the civilization to the island, and threw the "Mighty Stone" into the open sky...

Most of this connects to what we saw in SA obviously enough. Mystery island=Angel Island, civilization=echidnas, mighty stone=Master Emerald, etc.

The second paragraph is the closest we have to information on the events between Tikal's time and the present. Unfortunately, it's vague, it's a legend (so there's no way to tell how much of it is meant to be real, and how much is due to misinterpretation by witnesses and distortion after a centuries-long telephone game), and Sonic Team's got the full authority to change the details however they want (it's obvious SA's version isn't a perfect match to S3's legend, even if it hits the main points).

But, I think it mentioning that part of the civilization was restored is good reason to believe that the echidnas weren't wiped out entirely by Chaos. Either that or there was some sort of supernatural intervention, but in any case, the island wasn't completely deserted between Tikal's time and Knuckles' time; there was a small but functional echidna civilization for at least some length of time. If we assume the echidnas lasted until relatively recently, we don't need any kind of complicated explanation for Knuckles' existence; he, the last echidna, is simply the child of the next-to-last echidnas. Unfortunately this still leaves the question of why they died out at all, but there's really no more information to work with on that point.

Aside from the fate of the echidnas, the other big question, as I see it, is what actually caused the island to rise. The Master Emerald sustains it, obviously, but it simply being there isn't enough, as it was grounded in Tikal's time. The interesting point from the manual is that some non-trivial amount of time passed between Chaos and the island rising, so its rising may not have anything to do with the events we saw in SA, directly. But without any more information almost any explanation is possible; a literal sky god as in the legend, the energy of the Master Emerald breaking the island loose from the mainland over time, some intentional act by the surviving echidnas...there's just no way to know.

[Nepenthe]

Nothing is really confirmed so this topic is kinda useless fan speculation, something I'm pretty sure we don't allow.

Yeah, don't backseat mod guys, especially if you've quoted a nonexistent rule. Seriously, this isn't cool, nor is accusing others of lying about permission they've been given by mods to go ahead with something. So yeah, don't so that.

[TailsTellsTales]

It was a PM I used to make sure .... Now , back to the topic

Chaos Warp be careful she might send Knuckles after you in! This would of been edited quicker if my phone not suddenly go blank in!

Edited July 20, 2013 by TailsTellsTales

[Nepenthe]

Good thing the report system saves copies of the original content. This kind of cheering on--

Somebody got owned I mean um... Chaos Warp be careful there in!

-- is definitely frowned upon because it just fans flames, especially after a mod has spoken on the issue. Since you tried to edit it, I assume you know it was wrong. But it should've never been posted in the first place.

And you guys wonder why we don't allow you to stealth edit.

[Kuzu]

I think Tikal was able to seal Chaos before it was able to wipe out the entire tribe, but a significant portion of them died and the remaining echindas decided to never let a mistake such as that happen again and used the power of the Master Emerald to keep it out of anyone's reach, and the guardians were made to look after Chaos.

 

As for what happened between that and when Knuckles was born, that's anyone's guess. I believe that the surviving echidnas just weren't able to reestablish their civilization due to limited resources; perhaps some retreated to find new land and are still on the planet somewhere, while Knuckles` family stayed and took up guardianship and his parents eventually succumbed to old age. 

[Autosaver]

Isn't there some Sonic Chronicles story to this too?
 

Yeah, I know. THAT game.

[tenchibr]

Fan speculation or not, there has to be blood shared between Tikal and Knuckles. If the civilization went extinct and she's the only survivor thanks to Chaos, then at the very least, she must be her great-great-great-great-grandmother. Or she came out of the Emerald during the Eighties and fell in love with a hair metal dude, and Knuckles was born.

Edited July 20, 2013 by tenchibr

[Vertekins]

Fan speculation or not, there has to be blood shared between Tikal and Knuckles. If the civilization went extinct and she's the only survivor thanks to Chaos, then at the very least, she must be her great-great-great-great-grandmother. Or she came out of the Emerald during the Eighties and fell in love with a hair metal dude, and Knuckles was born.

Tikal died the night Pachacamac stormed the shrine. When she wished for Chaos to be stopped, the ME responded by ripping her soul from her body and sealing Chaos with it, causing her physical demise.

As she obviously died having not birthed children and considering that Pachacamac was never depicted nor hinted at having any other offspring, direct descendents are impossible.

Yep, Chronicles is once again full of shit regarding it's insistence that Knuckles is Tikal's/Pachacamac's direct descendent.

[TheOcelot]

I think that In the backstory of SA1, the echidna tribe was in dispute with another tribe over who should own the master emerald and their lands. So there was a war and lots of people died. The poor (innocent) chao and Tikal got court in the cross-fire. Not many from the echidna tribe or the other tribe survived. 

 

I like to think the remaining echidna's decided to live on the land (which would become known as 'Floating Island') where the master emerald was, in order to protect it from being abused (they had learned their lesson to never use it, as they couldn't be trusted).

 

Over the 4000 thousand years the echidna's protected the emerald. In the end the echidna tribe slowly died out. Natural selection? They left Knuckles the task of protecting the master emerald, because they knew as per that prophecy-picture in Hidden Palace.....

 

 

 

....that one day the master emerald would be sort by a powerful dangerous force, and that only a hedgehog would stand in it's way (it's a shame Knuckles didn't interpret that picture correctly ).

Edited July 20, 2013 by Sexy Ass -Bender-

[-Mark-]

I kind of always assumed that the Echidnas basically went extinct as a result of Perfect Chaos' rampage; if I remember correctly, didn't the Japanese Sonic 3 manual allude to this? If not that, I specifically remember something along those lines being referenced in the instructions for Sonic & Knuckles Collection on PC. 

 

Of course, that would mean that the only way Knuckles exists now would be for him to have been frozen in suspended animation from then until the present day. Of course, we'd have to assume he'd lost most of his memories for that to work, but equally I find it hard to believe that he could have been raised by any possible parents without retaining a single memory of them. If he'd been abandoned and left to fend for himself, the only way he'd realistically not have any memories whatsoever of his parents would be if he were abandoned at an age where he'd be more or less too young to survive on his own, which kinda rules that out somewhat (unless he lost his memories more recently, hitting his head or something; it'd certainly explain a lot )

 

Also, when you travel into the past in SA1, doesn't Knuckles say how the place feels familiar and that it feels like he's been there before? Granted, it could just be a reference to it being the Mystic Ruins of the present day, but still. 

 

It does annoy me a little that Knuckles and the general Angel Island mythos has been so badly strawmanned and shafted since SA1/2. It played a central role in S3&K and SA1 and has basically been abandoned since. Knuckles and the Master Emerald were pitifully shoehorned into SA2, and after that the entire concept has pretty much been dropped. It's kind of a shame SA1 didn't make things a little more concrete, really, seeing as they probably couldn't milk another game's worth of plot out of Angel Island and Knuckles' past. 

 

I must admit though, I think the fact it's hinted at in places but left open to interpretation is part of what makes it interesting. We don't want them to go all Shadow the Hedgehog on Knuckles after all. Otherwise we'll probably find out that Knuckles has something to do with aliens as well.

[JaidynReiman]

Tikal died the night Pachacamac stormed the shrine. When she wished for Chaos to be stopped, the ME responded by ripping her soul from her body and sealing Chaos with it, causing her physical demise.

As she obviously died having not birthed children and considering that Pachacamac was never depicted nor hinted at having any other offspring, direct descendents are impossible.

Yep, Chronicles is once again full of shit regarding it's insistence that Knuckles is Tikal's/Pachacamac's direct descendent.

As far as I'm aware, there's no confirmation Tikal actually died. That itself is just fan speculation. However, regardless of whether she died or not, she's NOT Knuckles' ancestor because Tikal was trapped in the Master Emerald alongside Chaos.

 

I don't recall anything in Chronicles indicating that Knuckles is a direct descendant of Tikal/Pachacamac either. Although I see no reason why Pachacamac couldn't have had another child that just wasn't mentioned.

[Speedy]

 

As far as I'm aware, there's no confirmation Tikal actually died. That itself is just fan speculation. However, regardless of whether she died or not, she's NOT Knuckles' ancestor because Tikal was trapped in the Master Emerald alongside Chaos.

 

I don't recall anything in Chronicles indicating that Knuckles is a direct descendant of Tikal/Pachacamac either. Although I see no reason why Pachacamac couldn't have had another child that just wasn't mentioned.

 

I think it's safe to assume Tikal died, or at least her body did. Her soul was sealed in the Master Emerald. She's a freaking ghost...

 

Anyway, Chronicles. I just confirmed with the in-game journal. It says there that Knuckles is the only survivor of his clan, the others became extinct over the centuries between Pachacamac's defeat and now. Direct relation between them is not implied, however I think it's possible since they seem to be members of the same clan. In tribally organized societies, members of a clan often were related in some way (not just parents and kids, but also cousins and other more distant relatives). Maybe Tikal was Knuckles' great-great-great-great-great-grand-aunt, or something of the sort.

 

 

I kind of always assumed that the Echidnas basically went extinct as a result of Perfect Chaos' rampage; if I remember correctly, didn't the Japanese Sonic 3 manual allude to this?

 

Kind of assumed the same, even if not complete extinction, but more like a drastic blow that killed a lot of them, destroyed their infrastructure and stuff like that, leaving the few survivors to pick up the pieces, which they never really managed.