What happened right after the events of Tikal in SA?

[Vertekins]

As far as I'm aware, there's no confirmation Tikal actually died. That itself is just fan speculation. However, regardless of whether she died or not, she's NOT Knuckles' ancestor because Tikal was trapped in the Master Emerald alongside Chaos.

 

Actually there is. The official Japanese Sonic Adventure guide states that Tikal prayed for the souls of herself and Chaos to be sealed inside the Master Emerald. This resulted in the death of her physical body and explains why Tikal's ghost appears identical to the age at which she died.

 

 

I don't recall anything in Chronicles indicating that Knuckles is a direct descendant of Tikal/Pachacamac either. Although I see no reason why Pachacamac couldn't have had another child that just wasn't mentioned.

 

It's not stated in the codex, Shade herself states it as a means of giving more reason to her admiration for Knuckles because his "ancestor" Pachacamac was a guy who was belligerent.

[Kuzu]

There's no reason to assume Tikal didn't have a child offscreen and that offspring spun off into Knuckes' heritage. I mean, being the chief's daughter and all.

The more I think about this, the more it irks me that Sonic Team refuse to shed any light on this.

[Spin Attaxx]

She was around 14.

 

Having a child at that age carries pretty uncomfortable implications.

[Jango]

Throwing even more wood in the fire, who sealed Chaos inside the Master Emerald in the first place? When Pachacamac and the echidnas warrior attacked the altar, they broke the M.E., freeing Chaos. They didn't knew Chaos was inside of it, so maybe a different people sealed him, but who? I also don't believe Chaos is evil, but since the echidnas were being harmful, he attacked them to defend himself and protect the chaos. After some havoc, Tikal gave her soul to seal Chaos inside the Emerald back. The surviving equidnas then created "the god of destruction" legend, and never touched the M.E. again. To match with Sonic 3 story, maybe the equidnas that were alive when Knuckles was a baby, tried to harness the Master Emerald powers once again, and that energy that supposedly wiped out them all, was Tikal. The only lucky survivor was Knuckles. Maybe it wasn't even the equidnas, but... Gerald? That would actually be very interesting.

[Spin Attaxx]

Chaos was not initially in the Master Emerald back in the Echidna days. He was in the pools in the shrine.

[Jango]

Chaos was not initially in the Master Emerald back in the Echidna days. He was in the pools in the shrine.

 

Seriously? Oh shit, I lost that. But... who created Chaos? Or he was just simply born from the water after being, I dunno... charged with the Emerald's power? Ooooh, and Tikal had a secret friendship with him! That's totaly Disney cliche, but somewhat cool!

Edited July 20, 2013 by Jango

[Spin Attaxx]

Officially, Chaos was a regular Chao who was mutated by exposure to the Master Emerald.

[Jango]

Officially, Chaos was a regular Chao who was mutated by exposure to the Master Emerald.

 

That makes sense, yep. But why he was water based?

[Tara]

Throwing even more wood in the fire, who sealed Chaos inside the Master Emerald in the first place? When Pachacamac and the echidnas warrior attacked the altar, they broke the M.E., freeing Chaos. They didn't knew Chaos was inside of it, so maybe a different people sealed him, but who? I also don't believe Chaos is evil, but since the echidnas were being harmful, he attacked them to defend himself and protect the chaos. After some havoc, Tikal gave her soul to seal Chaos inside the Emerald back. The surviving equidnas then created "the god of destruction" legend, and never touched the M.E. again. To match with Sonic 3 story, maybe the equidnas that were alive when Knuckles was a baby, tried to harness the Master Emerald powers once again, and that energy that supposedly wiped out them all, was Tikal. The only lucky survivor was Knuckles. Maybe it wasn't even the equidnas, but... Gerald? That would actually be very interesting.

That all makes sense except for the fact that-

1) As Spin Attaxx said, Chaos wasn't originally imprisoned in the Master Emerald.  He was in the pools surrounding the altar.

2) The Master Emerald certainly didn't look broken when Chaos initially attacked them, and if it were broken, then I don't think Tikal could have used its power to seal Chaos and herself away.

 

Seriously? Oh shit, I lost that. But... who created Chaos? Or he was just simply born from the water after being, I dunno... charged with the Emerald's power? Ooooh, and Tikal had a secret friendship with him! That's totaly Disney cliche, but somewhat cool!

Considering Chaos is often seen as a "god," then he exists in a higher plain of existence and was not created or born in the same sense as a biological being.

 

 

Officially, Chaos was a regular Chao who was mutated by exposure to the Master Emerald.

When was this piece of legend exposited?  I don't recall hearing that at all.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Akito

[Diogenes]

Chao are pretty jiggly. I wouldn't doubt they're already water-based.

[Spin Attaxx]

That makes sense, yep. But why he was water based?

Maybe the shrine pools were also a factor. Or science-magic stuff.

 

When was this piece of legend exposited?  I don't recall hearing that at all.

Japanese Sonic Channel, I believe.

[Your Vest Friend]

When was this piece of legend exposited?  I don't recall hearing that at all.

It was exposited on Sonic Channel.

[Diogenes]

Considering Chaos is often seen as a "god," then he exists in a higher plain of existence and was not created or born in the same sense as a biological being.

Calling a thing a god does not necessarily mean it is one. Also there's nothing stopping a god from being born or being created.

When was this piece of legend exposited?  I don't recall hearing that at all.

His profile on Sonic Channel, I think.

[Kuzu]

Yea, cheese is pretty bubbly in Heroes' CG scenes.

[Tara]

Calling a thing a god does not necessarily mean it is one. Also there's nothing stopping a god from being born or being created.

His profile on Sonic Channel, I think.

Okay, that's true.

 

I still don't think Chaos' existence is something that necessarily needs to be explained, though.  I'd be more than content with them leaving it at "all-powerful being watching over Chao and Master Emerald and stuff before things happened."  But I suppose it could make for some interesting speculation.

[Indigo Rush]

That makes sense, yep. But why he was water based?

 

Chao are designed to be living "water" spirits. Their light blue color and teardrop shaped head was supposed to solidify that, and the fact that they can only live off of pure water is also a pointer... but I think that detail was lost in translation. 

 

 

 

And there is also the Chaos Chao, the Chao's final form...

 

Solid green eyes, liquid blue details, claws for hands and immortal.

 

 

 

Other similarities:

* Chao have the ability to transform their appearance

 

* They share a connection with the Chaos Emeralds, as hinted in Sonic Heroes (Cheese being related to Chaos, allowing Metal Sonic to transform as if he had collected them all)

 

* Fully evolved, they are immortal

 

So to be specific, Chaos is a mutated "Chaos Chao."

Edited July 20, 2013 by Indigo Rush

[Jango]

It's weird, because Chaos is not show at the pools at any moment during cutscenes, and we see Tikal speaking with the Master Emerald directly. But in the Super Sonic story, when the equidnas get close to the ME, the Chaos Emeralds starts to float and shine, and Chaos simply appears from the ground.

 

[Spin Attaxx]

Chaos WAS those pools. He's water hiding in water.

[Mauro Fonseca]

She was around 14.

 

Having a child at that age carries pretty uncomfortable implications.

In recent times, maybe. Remember she's basically a Mayan Princess from 4000 years ago.

Which also reminds me, why is it so wrong with assuming there's a bloodline surviving? Pachacamac is the leader of a bellicose tribe, he certainly has sired more sons and daughters.

Overall, what happened, from what I recall, and colour coded for things I'm head-canon-ing, seems to be constructed as:

1. Fuckhuge Echidna civilization overall, divided into tribes, or maybe various Echidna civilizations, depending on how you see it.

2. Knuckles tribe was bellicose as all hell, Nocturne tribe was the most scientifically advanced.

3. Being the most advanced of the tribes, maybe even the most advanced civilization at that point on Earth, they're targeted by the multidimensional entity known as Argus, that seems to act as a civilizational regulator.

4. This leaves a vacuum of power that the Knuckles tribe take a liking to- they're now the top dogs. The result is massive expansion and war.

5. Eventually they decide to use the Chaos Emeralds, which they worshipped, as weapons. They trample on the Chao to do so, resulting on Perfect Chaos killing them.

6. Now here's the thing- no way that Perfect Chaos literally killed everyone, especially since Tikal stopped him. So what happened now was that the great Knuckles Tribe was powerless, and with their numbers heavily diminished, but still existed.

7. They do more temples and the like around the region, Lost World and Regal Ruins, things like that, as their numbers dwindle. One thing to remember here is that the Echidnas are used more as a metaphor for a tribe, so when we see their numbers dwindle we must think of it not biologically but sociologically. They keep together, there's no infusion of new blood since most of their people was killed/possibly went to live elsewhere in colonies to run away from their civilization

8. So they just keep having less babies per generation, probably both as a means to preserve resources on their region and due to sheer genepool variety issues

9. Some event lifts the chunk of land to the skies, generating the Floating Island and its ruins that form kind of an archipelago around it (Sky Sanctuary and the like)

10. Prophecies are made of a dragon egg that would crash on the Island and lead to a great conflict around the Master Emerald

11. As each generation dwindles, we end up with Knuckles being alone the last of his people.

12. Possible sidenote, Chaotix (the game) certainly links up somehow. Maybe a stretch, but I like to imagine the event that sent the Floating Island to the skies was what sunk the Island in Chaotix as well.

[Vertekins]

It's weird, because Chaos is not show at the pools at any moment during cutscenes, and we see Tikal speaking with the Master Emerald directly. But in the Super Sonic story, when the equidnas get close to the ME, the Chaos Emeralds starts to float and shine, and Chaos simply appears from the ground.

 

 

Chaos takes the form of the water surrounding the shrine. Whenever Tikal communes with it, it replies to her by rippling the water. Tikal has the actual ability to understand what it's saying despite it's communication skills being limited to water ripples.

 

It's also implied that Chaos is watching Sonic in the mural area of Lost World. See 2:47 in this video when the water ripples as Sonic runs towards the mural;

 

 

After it's defeat on board the Egg Carrier, Chaos may have fled to the pools surrounding the path up to the mural depicting it's Perfect form, just waiting for the opportunity to finish what it started.

[Spin Attaxx]

In recent times, maybe. Remember she's basically a Mayan Princess from 4000 years ago.

Still doesn't make it any less implicitly fucked up.

 

I'm no historian, but I don't think Mayan princesses had kids at that young an age.

[Indigo Rush]

It's weird, because Chaos is not show at the pools at any moment during cutscenes, and we see Tikal speaking with the Master Emerald directly. 

 

Not totally true...

 

[Diogenes]

Pregnancy at 14ish is a bit much for this series, really. Knuckles being descended from some unseen (half?) sibling of Tikal, maybe, but I really can't imagine them trying to pull Knuckles being directly descended from Tikal.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Still doesn't make it any less implicitly fucked up.

 

I'm no historian, but I don't think Mayan princesses had kids at that young an age.

 

... she's 14. Pretty sure when you look at it historically, that's not a young age at all. When people die at 30, that's middle-age already. Tikal not only maybe had a son, she was also likely already married or at least tied to a marriage. At least assuming the Mayans acted like most civilizations at the time.

 

EDIT: Not that I'm saying Tikal's literally Knuckles' grand-grand-grand-grand...-grandmother, just saying it wouldn't be odd in historical terms- due to the obvious issues with the Western audience, it's more likely that Pachacamac had a bunch of children instead, a couple of sons at least- doubt he'd be happy with just having a daughter.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Captain Harlock

[Jango]

So Chaos was the water around the altar all the time, that's cool. And disguise himself as that water makes sense, assuming that he was much more evolved, inteligent and strong Chao, he thought it would be better to not be exposed. But he was always there, to protect the ME and the Chao and was needed.