Who in the World is Big Meant to Appeal To?

[Rad Dudesman]

He's a comic relief character.

[Semi-colon e]

Big the Cat is the Sonic-verse equivalent of Derpy Hooves, right? Hope he gets wonderful cameos in the "Sonic Boom" project.

 

Not really, he's had a more prominent role while Derpy is almost exclusively background flavour.

[Tara]

Big the Cat is the Sonic-verse equivalent of Derpy Hooves, right? Hope he gets wonderful cameos in the "Sonic Boom" project.

 

 

Not really, he's had a more prominent role while Derpy is almost exclusively background flavour.

 

Plus, I wouldn't really compare the two.  Derpy is depicted as more clumsy while Big is depicted as more slow-talking and simple with otherwise very little personality.  Still, though, it would be interesting to see Big take on a more "Where's Waldo?" sort of role with very few speaking parts, like his cameos in SA2.  I'd actually really love to see that.

[Celestia]

Something like his cameo role in Secret Rings could work, too. In each level you can find him, and then you can read a diary entry that explains his adventures that are going on behind the scene of your adventure.

 

It'd especially be humorous in a situation like Secret Rings, or perhaps Lost World, where you find yourself wondering how in the world he got to there! (Although, IIRC, the chronologically-first entry explained that Shahra initially thought he was the one she was looking for. I guess she doesn't know what hedgehogs are supposed to look like.)

[Harley Quinn]

I can tell you I have a younger sister, about four years old... She's absolutely a girly girl and love love *loves* Amy, Cream and Big. So I think maybe Big was designed to be the adorable purple cat little girls would love, while trying to awkwardly give older kids some sense of comic relief (but failed in the latter aspect, imho).

[Aquaslash]

I liked that mannerism of Sonic Team to an extent. Nowadays it's practically non-existent due to pandering to what some people want instead of what they want to do

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark here.  Said mannerism probably is extremely downplayed/suppressed because providing things that you know a customer wants generally makes more money.

 

Just a hunch!

[Mr Useful]

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark here.  Said mannerism probably is extremely downplayed/suppressed because providing things that you know a customer wants generally makes more money.

 

Just a hunch!

I'd say they will try to re implement characters such as big and cream when everyone thinks Sonic is good again and for the general public to forget Sonic 06, Shadow, and Unleashed.

[Vertekins]

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark here.  Said mannerism probably is extremely downplayed/suppressed because providing things that you know a customer wants generally makes more money.

 

Just a hunch!

 

Oh I understand that, hence the "To an extent" that I said. I mean, no one in their right mind would think that the likes of Shadow the Hedgehog was nothing less than pandering AND an example of terribad decisions. But then I used to get the impression that Sonic Team was more liberal with it's own ideas and with executing them.

[Nepenthe]

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark here.  Said mannerism probably is extremely downplayed/suppressed because providing things that you know a customer wants generally makes more money.

 

Just a hunch!

 

They were probably making more or the same amount of money when they were cranking out stuff people "didn't want," so it's kind of a moot point. Everything they're doing at this point is basically good will pandering, which is fine until you realize 1.) Quality affects good will too. If those three games Dom named had been qualitatively good, no one would have a thing to say at this point, and 2.) Half the shit people on Sonic forums and the like are asking for again does not inherently have to intrude on the actual experience of playing the game. Hate other characters? Don't select them. Hate story? Press start to skip it. The compromise for both sides is blatant in just designing a modern goddamned game. xP

 

I'd say they will try to re implement characters such as big and cream when everyone thinks Sonic is good again and for the general public to forget Sonic 06, Shadow, and Unleashed.

 

.... So basically never? You really think people are going to forget those games, especially this one? This mystical point in time is just never going to come.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Nepenthe

[Splash the Otter]

.... So basically never? You really think people are going to forget those games, especially this one? This mystical point in time is just never going to come.

To be fair, those games would be easier to forget if the reviewers didn't keep using them as "proof that Sonic has always been terrible". Even though NextGen was seven years ago and Unleashed wasn't even a bad game!

Edited August 1, 2013 by ElectroKyurem

[Nepenthe]

Everyone keeps bringing them up because people don't like forgetting what they perceive as failure. "Remember the past" and all that, but it becomes grating when we reach unrealistically simple conclusions from doing so. Because you know, it was clearly non-Sonic playable characters that was the direct result of Sonic 06 being a piece of shit; not the design and programming.

[Mr Useful]

They were probably making more or the same amount of money when they were cranking out stuff people "didn't want," so it's kind of a moot point. Everything they're doing at this point is basically good will pandering, which is fine until you realize 1.) Quality affects good will too. If those three games Dom named had been qualitatively good, no one would have a thing to say at this point, and 2.) Half the shit people on Sonic forums and the like are asking for again does not inherently have to intrude on the actual experience of playing the game. Hate other characters? Don't select them. Hate story? Press start to skip it. The compromise for both sides is blatant in just designing a modern goddamned game. xP

 

 

.... So basically never? You really think people are going to forget those games, especially this one? This mystical point in time is just never going to come.

Ah sorry I meant something more along the lines of:

To not continue using these games as scapegoats and as an example of why Sonic sucks(even after we had Colours and Generations)

When I said forget. But then again, I don't have enough faith in the general public to not use products over 5 years old to judge somethings current standing.

 

 

Everyone keeps bringing them up because people don't like forgetting what they perceive as failure. "Remember the past" and all that, but it becomes grating when we reach unrealistically simple conclusions from doing so. Because you know, it was clearly non-Sonic playable characters that was the direct result of Sonic 06 being a piece of shit; not the design and programming.

 

 Because Tails and Knuckles in Sonic Advance 1,2, & 3 and Sonic 3 or Blaze in Sonic Rush & Rush adventure were bad things. Other playable characters are bad because they don't fit with Sonic's theme; Speed, platforming, and speed running, like Big or the Mechs in SA2(I won't say gamma because most of his stages were pretty short and speed run-able and he wasn't a tank like the SA2 mechs) Also, 06 was missing the Speed and to an extent, speedrunning.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Dom

[Tara]

I can tell you I have a younger sister, about four years old... She's absolutely a girly girl and love love *loves* Amy, Cream and Big. So I think maybe Big was designed to be the adorable purple cat little girls would love, while trying to awkwardly give older kids some sense of comic relief (but failed in the latter aspect, imho).

Considering his role being in Team Rose, I might actually believe that.  Though, in fairness, that might just be their attempts to emphasize the "simplicity" of Team Rose's gameplay.

 

 Because Tails and Knuckles in Sonic Advance 1,2, & 3 and Sonic 3 or Blaze in Sonic Rush & Rush adventure were bad things. Other playable characters are bad because they don't fit with Sonic's theme; Speed, platforming, and speed running, like Big or the Mechs in SA2(I won't say gamma because most of his stages were pretty short and speed run-able and he wasn't a tank like the SA2 mechs) Also, 06 was missing the Speed and to an extent, speedrunning.

I wouldn't say the other characters don't fit within Sonic's theme.  I just think they have yet to implement it in a way that does.

 

If they want Tails to fit in properly with the Sonic universe, his flight be as fast as Sonic's run.  That might make things difficult for the other games, but I'm sure with proper level design they could make it work.

 

For Knuckles to fit in, they need to give him a combat move that doesn't make you stop.  Also, it would be nice if gliding and climbing didn't slow you to a crawl.

 

I'm not sure how Blaze doesn't fit.  I think she was oodles of fun to play as, personally.

 

The main problem I have is that with the Advance games, you shouldn't have to complete the game (to include retrieving all the Chaos Emeralds) with EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER.  At least in Sonic Rush you had an excuse because the two characters were on different paths, but in the Advance games, the characters were literally on the same adventure.  There's literally no reason why you should have to do everything with every character.  It's not fun playing the same stages seven times in a row.  Just let me choose which character I want.

[Mr Useful]

Considering his role being in Team Rose, I might actually believe that.  Though, in fairness, that might just be their attempts to emphasize the "simplicity" of Team Rose's gameplay.

 

I wouldn't say the other characters don't fit within Sonic's theme.  I just think they have yet to implement it in a way that does.

 

If they want Tails to fit in properly with the Sonic universe, his flight be as fast as Sonic's run.  That might make things difficult for the other games, but I'm sure with proper level design they could make it work.

 

For Knuckles to fit in, they need to give him a combat move that doesn't make you stop.  Also, it would be nice if gliding and climbing didn't slow you to a crawl.

 

I'm not sure how Blaze doesn't fit.  I think she was oodles of fun to play as, personally.

 

The main problem I have is that with the Advance games, you shouldn't have to complete the game (to include retrieving all the Chaos Emeralds) with EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER.  At least in Sonic Rush you had an excuse because the two characters were on different paths, but in the Advance games, the characters were literally on the same adventure.  There's literally no reason why you should have to do everything with every character.  It's not fun playing the same stages seven times in a row.  Just let me choose which character I want.

"Wanna get the Chao Garden? Beat the Game with all chaos emeralds" Talk about a huge jump from just getting a key to go there after you beat the stage. But in all seriousness, most of the rewards for beating the game with all chaos emeralds in advance 2 should have been there from the start or unlocked by a different means.

 

In Rush and Rush Adventure Blaze was a slower, fire immune Sonic with better Air Control and movement so I can't see why she can't be playable. Off topic but Espio or Blaze would be awesome in Lost World because the former could stick to walls and walk on them and the latter has amazing air control.

[Tara]

"Wanna get the Chao Garden? Beat the Game with all chaos emeralds"

With every character, so you have to collect the same Emerald several times.

 

Talk about a huge jump from just getting a key to go there after you beat the stage. But in all seriousness, most of the rewards for beating the game with all chaos emeralds in advance 2 should have been there from the start or unlocked by a different means.

I couldn't agree more.  "Congratulations!  You cleared the game!  Now you can clear the game in speed run mode!  Oooooh!"  Also, the Tiny Chao Garden is hardly worth clearing the game for anyway.  As far as I'm aware, it holds none of the fun value of the actual Chao gardens.  On the bright side, at least they're an optional component, unlike in the Adventure games.

 

In Rush and Rush Adventure Blaze was a slower, fire immune Sonic with better Air Control and movement so I can't see why she can't be playable.

Blaze only seemed slightly slower to me.  But yeah, I loved playing as her.  I just think it's ridiculous that they should have the same levels and bosses.

[Nepenthe]

While I understand that characters need to fit within the general design of a title, I'm not fond of forcing them into a boring set-up where they're just Sonic with some tweaked stats, especially if you're gonna be lazy and put them in the same levels. Sonic 06 was actually interesting in this regard, keeping characters confined within a basic design tenet (they really were all platforming characters with the goal of "Get to the end") but actually having the balls to say, "Hey, maybe a character can ride a vehicle once in awhile" or "maybe one character's level design can be more puzzle-oriented." As a platformer that prides itself on moving in unique ways, and as a series that prides itself on having different characters, there's no reason to pigeonhole Sonic game design as only one single, stringent, unchanging thing. Even Sonic's campaign in Adventure was more interesting than that. Some of his levels were more speed-oriented, others were more puzzle-and-play oriented, and one was just a casino. Why can't we have that kind of variety anymore?

[Splash the Otter]

While I understand that characters need to fit within the general design of a title, I'm not fond of forcing them into a boring set-up where they're just Sonic with some tweaked stats, especially if you're gonna be lazy and put them in the same levels. Sonic 06 was actually interesting in this regard, keeping characters confined within a basic design tenet (they really were all platforming characters with the goal of "Get to the end") but actually having the balls to say, "Hey, maybe a character can ride a vehicle once in awhile" or "maybe one character's level design can be more puzzle-oriented." As a platformer that prides itself on moving in unique ways, and as a series that prides itself on having different characters, there's no reason to pigeonhole Sonic game design as only one single, stringent, unchanging thing. Even Sonic's campaign in Adventure was more interesting than that. Some of his levels were more speed-oriented, others were more puzzle-and-play oriented, and one was just a casino. Why can't we have that kind of variety anymore?

Lost World looks like it might be re-introducing that variety.

[Tara]

While I understand that characters need to fit within the general design of a title, I'm not fond of forcing them into a boring set-up where they're just Sonic with some tweaked stats, especially if you're gonna be lazy and put them in the same levels. Sonic 06 was actually interesting in this regard, keeping characters confined within a basic design tenet (they really were all platforming characters with the goal of "Get to the end") but actually having the balls to say, "Hey, maybe a character can ride a vehicle once in awhile" or "maybe one character's level design can be more puzzle-oriented." As a platformer that prides itself on moving in unique ways, and as a series that prides itself on having different characters, there's no reason to pigeonhole Sonic game design as only one single, stringent, unchanging thing. Even Sonic's campaign in Adventure was more interesting than that. Some of his levels were more speed-oriented, others were more puzzle-and-play oriented, and one was just a casino. Why can't we have that kind of variety anymore?

I disagree with the "especially if you're going to be lazy and put them in the same levels" part.  I think if you're going to be lazy and put them all in the same levels, then they SHOULD just be Sonic with slight design tweaks, because that one set of levels is going to be catered primarily to one character (hint: Sonic) so any different abilities the other characters may have are just going to seem useless.  That's a very glaring problem in Advance 2.  How often do you use all the extra moves that the characters are given?  Next to never, from my experience.  You might as well either not make them playable or make them all Sonic because if you have a bunch of unique characters, but none of their special talents are going to be utilized in unique ways, then why even bother?

 

I do agree with your overall point, though.  I would love all the characters to play differently with a variety of different level structures and designs.  But I still think the primary focus for all the characters should be doing it fast, or at least at a reasonable pace.  I'd best compare it to the Smash Bros. series.  All the characters have different stats, moves, and controls, but the end result is still frantic, fast-paced combat.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Akito

[Nepenthe]

I don't think being in the same level requires that characters inherently be near carbon copies of Sonic. If anything, that's where that multi-tier level design everyone likes so much could really come in handy. Imagine not only paths that Tails can reach that Sonic can't, but paths that open up new level design options completely divorced from obstacles and sights on the ground. I mean, if I can fly with Tails, it'd be interesting to reach cloud cover or something and thus have a cloud hopping adventure and deal with context-specific aerial enemies and stuff. Same with Knuckles and his ability to go underground. It just doesn't have to be "Generic Green Zone" everywhere with the same enemies and same paths and same obstacles just a little to the north and south of each other, does it?

[Tara]

Actually, when you put it that way, it's a great idea.  I wouldn't mind seeing something like that.

 

Knuckles' combat system still needs to be given a complete overhaul, though, considering that his punches are pretty useless in just about every game that he's playable.

[Mr Useful]

Actually, when you put it that way, it's a great idea.  I wouldn't mind seeing something like that.   Knuckles' combat system still needs to be given a complete overhaul, though, considering that his punches are pretty useless in just about every game that he's playable.

I could name a game where his punches are useful, actually 2 Sonic the Fighters(don't kill me) and Sonic Battle(please don't kill me).

[MegasonicZX]

I could name a game where his punches are useful, actually 2 Sonic the Fighters(don't kill me) and Sonic Battle(please don't kill me).

In sonic battle there still pretty useless (lol when you miss the opponent because knuckles punches have weird hit boxes) but I see your point. I think one way to improve knuckles would be to give him attacks that can hit in a wider range like the werehog but make it so that he doesn't have to stop in order to do them (or atleast make them flow from each other well). Also, some combos would be nice, each with good ways of taking out badniks of course.

[Mr Useful]

In sonic battle there still pretty useless (lol when you miss the opponent because knuckles punches have weird hit boxes) but I see your point. I think one way to improve knuckles would be to give him attacks that can hit in a wider range like the werehog but make it so that he doesn't have to stop in order to do them (or atleast make them flow from each other well). Also, some combos would be nice, each with good ways of taking out badniks of course.

Imagine SA2 Knuckles with more depth and a few extra combos. But slightly on topic, big needs a tackle move to make him more fun. The tack would have him move faster and destroy enemies and certain props, walls, and items.