Do Words Have Power Without Context? (An excuse to say "fuck" many times in one post)

[Tara]

Or perhaps the better question would be: Should words have power without context? The idea for this topic stems from a slight debacle in the status updates whereby a certain four-letter word became the subject of controversy amongst various members. Some members were offended, while others did not see any reason to be offended. But I'm not going to go into lengthy detail about that, since it was yesterday's news and I'm referring to vocabulary as a whole, not just that one word.

 

Let me start with a minor example which has roots in my early childhood. Growing up in a Christ-centered household, I was often told that the word “Hell” was a very naughty thing to say. I should never under any circumstances tell something to go there, nor should I interject “What the hell?” In short, the word “hell” was simply off limits to me. So, one day, coming home from Sunday School, I asked my parents why it was okay for the teacher as well as the pastor to say hell, and not me. They told me that the word “hell” is only a bad word if it is said in a bad way. If, for example, you're referring specifically to the place, not using it in a manner to target or belittle someone, then it's no longer profane. So one day, I got into a religious discussion with my parents and I used the word “hell,” referring specifically to the place, not as a means of belittling anyone. I didn't tell anyone to go there, nor did I suggest that someone would. Can you guess what happened?

 

Yup, I got in trouble for it. Because “hell” is a bad word. It didn't matter that I was using it in the context that I was told not long beforehand was perfectly acceptable. Why was it offensive then? Is the word “hell” itself a harmful word to say? Does it matter what context? My theory is simply that at the time I was just a kid, and the last thing any parent wants their child to talk about is hell and damnation. Parents envision their children as the closest thing to perfect angels, and discussions of eternal condemnation would only soil the image of innocence that many parents wish to hold onto for as long as they can. It isn't helped that I'm the youngest in the family, which means they'll want to hold onto that innocence for longer than rightfully so.

 

But in an ideal society, should that be the case? Should certain words rub us the wrong way, regardless of contextual purpose?

 

Here's some more words that my parents would threaten to wash my mouth out with soap if I was ever caught even thinking about: damn, shit, ass, jackass, fuck, faggot, bitch, and bastard. As I grew older, the list expanded to include words like: dick, slut, skank, cunt, cock, tits, whore, blow, and many, many more.

 

Now, to be clear, this isn't an argument on rather these words should be considered profanity. I don't find any of these words offensive in and of themselves, but I do see why they would be, and I find the idea that “they're just words” to be a terrible argument to suggest otherwise. Words aren't just words. Words aren't just a series of organized vocal cord vibrations and tongue movements. Words have weight; they carry the weight of definition, connotation, and up to hundreds of thousands of years worth of history. They are not just words, they are words with meanings, and some people are offended by those meanings. Am I saying you should be offended by them? Am I saying that you're a bad person if you use them? No. Absolutely not. It's perfectly okay to not be offended by something, but it's nothing to brag about either. Because we all come from different walks of life, there are many reasons one may get offended, and language happens to be one of those things that communicate offense rather intentionally or not.

 

As a more controversial example, let's look at the a lovely six letter word that starts with an “N.” Because I am by every stretch of the word Caucasian, society has led me to believe that I am not entitled to even utter the word. So for the sake of comedy, let's say the word is boingy. It doesn't start with an N., but it's sooooooo cute. Anyway, knowing what the word means and the history behind it, I don't find myself entitled to say it anyway. I would never use that word to refer to anyone, because I don't view people of any race that way. In fact, I would think terribly of someone who did use such a word so loosely and without any care or deliberation. On the other hand, I support LGBT equality in every single possible regard, but I still have friends and a huge pool of family that is very loose and careless with the word “faggot.” Now, on the one hand, I'm not very close to a lot of the members of my family and this word is one of the many reasons why. So with that said, how can I be close to the friends and family that do use this word, while distant form the others that are guilty of the same crime? Well, it all boils down to “purpose” and “context.”

 

When I examine the messages being communicated to me, I try not to think about the words they say, but what they mean when they say it. From what I gather, the friends that I know who are open with the word “faggot” use it more habitually and don't use it with deliberately homophobic intentions. Many of said friends are very vocal proponents of LGBT rights and wouldn't dream of doing any physical or emotional harm to someone solely because of a difference in orientation. The same can't be said about the other members of my family that very much do use the word to literally mean “homosexual person” in a derogatory and condemning manner. A particularly stinging quote “Barack Obama says it's okay to be a fucking faggot,” comes to mind. I guess the difference between “boingy” and “faggot” is that most people who use it understand the connotation. They know very well what it means and what harm it could do to someone, but even if they don't use it with the intent of offending someone, they often use it simply because they indirectly believe they're above the idea of being considerate to others. Or maybe I'm just a bit of a hypocrite. Either way, it shows exactly what I'm talking about: Difference walks of life, different reasons to be offended.

 

As another personal example that does not involve language, here's something I will never joke about. I will never find this funny, no matter how beautifully crafted the joke is, or how much you clearly had no intention of offending anyone. I will never find domestic abuse funny. When I was fifteen or so, my BFF was nearly murdered by her father. Had her neighbors not been outside at the time, there's no telling if she'd be here today. This wasn't the first time her father had been physically and verbally abusive to his family, and it wouldn't be his last time either. Knowing that there exists people who would hurt their own children, their own spouses, that they would hurt anyone deliberately is something that tears my heart to shreds. Because of my experiences with my best friend, I have seen what years of abuse has done to her and that is the point where my humor switch turns off. Sure, there are many people, some maybe even on this very board, who had it far worse than her, but because I've never experienced it, it doesn't strike a personal chord with me. I've made jokes about murder, discrimination, and bullying, and even though I'm willing to admit that none of those were any less distasteful than a joke about domestic abuse, for some reason, that's where I personally draw the line. It's terrible and it is a form of hypocrisy that I've yet to overcome.

 

It's for that reason, however, that I don't judge people who do joke about that sort of thing. I feel justified in saying that I have every right to be offended at the joke, don't get me wrong, but I do not have a right to tell you that you can't make it just because it's where I, personally, draw the line. The same can be said for language. Just because I'm offended by someone's use of a word doesn't mean I'm entitled to tell people they can't use it or that they should stop what they're doing.

 

It's not just a matter of jokes, however. Going back to that list of words, is it just as profane for me to have listed those words as it is to have used them in context? If I told you that your “ass” was your gluteus maximus, or that to “fuck” was to sexually penetrate, or that a “bitch” is an archaic word for female dog but has since garnered the connotation of a disagreeable female, would it be just as profane as saying “you're an ass,” or “fuck you,” or “you're a bitch?” Sure, I just made the argument that words aren't just words, but words without context are just gibberish. Again, with the more controversial example, should I really have to replace a historical word with a comical sound effect, even if I'm clearing using it as to exemplify how bad it is? Should I really be scared of being shunned or accused of racism simply because of a six-letter word that ultimately holds little weight in the context I'm using it?

 

I personally think it's ridiculous that anyone should be upset at the presence of the word, rather than the sentence it's used in. Yes, I understand that words have long and sometimes violent histories, but in an ideal society, shouldn't we be attempting to eliminate our reasons for being offended? Instead, when we decide that certain words are taboo rather than actual contexts, we look for another reason to be offended, rather than listening to the overall point and seeking understanding. Sure, I understand some words have a certain connotation. I'm avid about avoiding the word “rape” unless I'm discussing the matter on a serious level because my mind tells me “rape is bad,” but others use it casually to describe many things that don't involve the tragic circumstances that surround rape. While I would like to tell them how that offends me, I know that it would ultimately be the wrong thing to do. I can't ask people to change, and likewise, they can't ask me to change. So instead of getting offended at their callous use of the word, I would instead focus on what they mean when they say it. Perhaps I'll agree with them, perhaps not. Either way, despite the true meaning of the word, I'm not offended at them personally, because they weren't making light of the actual matter. The same applies to domestic abuse; even though I instantly lose my humor at the mention of it, I don't allow it to severely influence my opinion on a person unless they actually are making light of the matter. I know some people that do make those sort of jokes. I don't laugh at them, but I do know in my heart that if they ever met someone who suffered from such a thing, they wouldn't laugh. They'd handle the situation with the proper dignity and respect, because there's a difference between reality and what people may consider humorous scenarios.

 

Which brings me to my final point, “why?” Why do words have power when they're not being used properly. Why do these words themselves have power, and not the sentences they're attached to? Why is shouting “fuck!” so taboo when I'm clearly not suggesting that anyone be literally fucked? Why should I be scared to say “damn it” in public when I know I'm not really wishing for someone to be damned? Why should some words be offensive just because they're there, rather than because they mean anything? I'm not making a statement here, either. I have select words that rub me the wrong way as well, I am merely asking what I feel is a legitimate question. Why is it offensive if it doesn't mean anything?

 

My main hypothesis when I was contemplating this topic was simply that those words brought back memories that some people don't want to be brought back. But then I figured, you know, I'm pretty sure nobody here was alive to face the struggles that are associated with when that word was coined. Boingy is an exception because racism is still a thing that happens to this day, but even then, not many people I know that try to defend its position as an obscene word use that as their reasoning. They always bring up the years of slavery and oppression, which is a fair point, but they never mention it in a way that involves their own oppression. You can't feel the torment of your ancestors. You can only feel your own torment. I'm not trying to be unsympathetic. I do find slavery and segregation and modern day racism to be a travesty, but it's simply true that you can not feel the persecution from the time of your ancestors, only that which has happened to you. I can say that I've experienced persecution and phobias of my own differences, but I can't say I've felt the persecution and phobias of my ancestor's differences.

 

I also considered that maybe it's like me and the word rape, where in my ideal world, it would only be brought up with tact and dignity, and to bring it up any other way would be obscene. But then I thought, you know, in the case of words like “jackass,” are donkeys really that obscene? In the case of the word “bastard,” is it really so bad in this day and age that someone should have to sulk because their mother and father weren't married at the time they exited the womb? Even though I experience the same sensation myself, I don't understand why it is, and I can't help but think it's a little unnecessary and impedes on our ability to grow and mature as one.

 

In short, the main two questions in this topic are, in an ideal society, should words be offensive even if they are devoid of context and purpose, and why are they currently?

[Diogenes]

I think it's important to remember that there are multiple levels of context. There's the context you mean for it, the words you said and the meaning you mean to express. And there's the context of society as a whole, how the word is and has been used. And no matter what you may intend, that societal context still exists and affects how it's going to be perceived, and what kind of weight it has. And I don't think there is such a thing as a word without context. If it's used, it's in some personal context; if it exists, it has some societal context.

 

In a case like, someone using "gay" to refer to something bad, even if it's got nothing to do with homosexuality or gay people, even if they don't intend to associate it with gay people, the association exists regardless. It perpetuates a connection between being gay and being bad, and that should be avoided, even if there's no conscious malice to it. It's not like we're lacking in words to describe bad things that don't unfairly target certain groups, Shit is a good one; everyone shits, we pretty unanimously agree that shit is unpleasant, and shit has no feelings to offend or rights to trample. No one's harmed by someone saying shit.
 

I can't ask people to change, and likewise, they can't ask me to change.

Why not?

[Tara]

Why not?

Well, I guess I could, but I wouldn't get very far.  In turn, they could probably do the same and the result would be about the same.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Akito

[Nepenthe]

In response to both questions, I can't imagine all words being somehow devoid of context and purpose. Such a cold neutrality is for textbook academic and scientific terms that describe natural processes and occurrences. But when it comes to those words which are ubiquitous in casual conversation, words meant to describe people, cultures and subcultures, identities, places- things we have emotional reactions towards- context and purpose are fundamental characteristics of them which in turn is necessary in communicating ideas to others. And ideas aren't borne in a mental vacuum; they're thought up in response to and with help from our overall society and culture. Subsequently, these words- even in an idealized world- will always have context, and their contexts will develop from how society has used them throughout history towards others, which is pertinent in assigning them inherent tones and ultimately definitions. Sometimes these contexts are positive, and sometimes these contexts are negative. This doesn't mean words with negative contexts can never be used; just that their contexts are more minimal and thus especially important if you care about offending people.

[Tara]

In response to both questions, I can't imagine all words being somehow devoid of context and purpose. Such a cold neutrality is for textbook academic and scientific terms that describe natural processes and occurrences. But when it comes to those words which are ubiquitous in casual conversation, words meant to describe people, cultures and subcultures, identities, places- things we have emotional reactions towards- context and purpose are fundamental characteristics of them which in turn is necessary in communicating ideas to others. And ideas aren't borne in a mental vacuum; they're thought up in response to and with help from our overall society and culture. Subsequently, these words- even in an idealized world- will always have context, and their contexts will develop from how society has used them throughout history towards others, which is pertinent in assigning them inherent tones and ultimately definitions. Sometimes these contexts are positive, and sometimes these contexts are negative. This doesn't mean words with negative contexts can never be used; just that their contexts are more minimal and thus especially important if you care about offending people.

Well, I don't mean literally without any context whatsoever, but not in the same context.  Like, say, would it be profane for a dictionary to list the word?  Or in the example I made with the word "hell," is there ever an area where it would be acceptable to use that word?  But you did answer that, so... yeah.  I agree.

 

My main point is not so much that we shouldn't teach or enforce that these words should be handled with sensitivity, but that we shouldn't dismiss what someone says just because they use the word in general.  If a white TV show host says that a movie contains the N. word, (or any profane word) without that kind of blatant self-censorship, I don't think he should be looked down upon since it's only used for referential purposes.  But if the same TV show host said the movie contained someone who is an "N. word," then it would definitely be naturally offensive.  I'd understand why in both cases, someone would be upset at the use of the word, but I don't think the former constitutes a complete disregard of what is being said over the words that are being used to say it.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Akito

[KHCast]

To me, it's not so much that what they say then becomes less credible, so muh as I loose respect I've gained from them. For example, I had a great teacher that was able to gt his message across clearly, in a entertaining and understandable fashion. He did this without the need for any language. Same teacher a few weeks later begins to casually put the occasional word here and there. In his mind, it was high school, everyone did it, why care if I do it. But that's what I like about him. He didnt have to use any language to make him sound intelligent or relatable. It was just there to be there. It just made me feel uncomfortable to here him say that. Especially since I was and am still against randomly throwing around language. I just lost my respect for him until he decided that he didn't need to try to be like high schoolers to do his job well.

The point being, when someone very credible that I look up to starts spouting "fuck" or "shit", it really does make me question whether I want to be like that person. Not just because of my beliefs, but also beause of my standards.

Edit: I hope this doesn't come off as me sounding like people who swear don't deserve my respect. It's just a different lifestyle compared to mine, and its their life. Those people still do great things. I'd just prefer no swearing lol.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Xemnas

[Salamander]

It's not like we're lacking in words to describe bad things that don't unfairly target certain groups, Shit is a good one; everyone shits, we pretty unanimously agree that shit is unpleasant, and shit has no feelings to offend or rights to trample. No one's harmed by someone saying shit.

 

Nobody's really harmed, but I don't want to spend a lot of time being reminded of these facts, either.  This is presumably why it's "taboo," to the limited extent that that is still in effect, but there's a separate issue, which is one of register and informality.  There is a generally held convention that profanity and obscenity have no place in polite conversation.  That's not an anachronism; you wouldn't expect to hear a lot of these words in a presidential speech or an academic article (except in a quotation or if it's being dissected linguistically).  When these words are employed, it's either with literal reference to their dictionary definition, which are culturally taboo subjects which people in general don't want to be reminded of, or they echo their dictionary definition.  I guess it's worth thinking about why particular words become profane in the first place, and it's not just a matter of what they describe, because there are plenty of neutral, factual words you could invoke just as easily.  I think it's not irrelevant that a lot of profane words are, to speak broadly, inelegant.  They are monosyllabic, they have a lot of harsh consonants, sometimes they're inherently slurred or corrupted, which you often find with racial slurs.  I dare say there are probably countless academic articles writing at length about how society has generally privileged Latinate words as the discourse of high society as opposed to Germanic words, which would be a relic of European ruling classes often using Latin or French rather than German or Old English, and how this has filtered through into the formation of profanity likely in the discourse of the lower classes or informal discourse which are the kinds of areas where discussion of taboo matters is more likely to take place, but we'll have to content ourselves with the summary.  The effect is, anyway, that while certain subjects are taboo, there are ways of discussing those subjects that is, if you like, more taboo - and that's through the use of profanity.  The point is that I would imagine profanity's original power comes from its association with "forbidden" words describing, if you like, "forbidden" subjects.  And here's the thing: Even when profanity is far more liberally employed, it has reached that position because it is profane.  Profane words are perhaps only uncommonly used in direct reference to their dictionary definition and are more often used to give strength to an utterance by use of a forbidden word.  It expresses strength of feeling and willingness to figuratively get one's hands dirty.  But that's the jumping-off point for them to be used more and more - to fake maturity, to cause offence, to create humour through offence.  And I think to a certain extent that's a self-reinforcing circle that has gradually normalised the use of profanity into what I suppose you might call mid-formal discourse, or perhaps a more broadly informal interpersonal discourse?  You could then extend the argument as to why that happens into an argument that our society is becoming postmodern in the sense that we're culturally exhausted of originality and have to sate ourselves instead on ever grander, more epic, more significant variations on the norm, on what we've encountered before, which require ever-greater linguistic expressions of force, but I think that's perhaps a little tenuous.

 

I kinda drifted off the point a little during that wall of text, but to echo the comments above, I essentially think that words always have context, partly because their supposed loss of context can in fact be a result of their original context.  And to say that I avoid using profanities because they are inelegant words on inelegant subjects.  You could argue that a standard of politeness like that is either just plain irrelevant or helps to enforce patriarchal or class-based standards of what is acceptable rather than participating in what you might call the democratisation of discourse whereby society more broadly determines its own standards of what is acceptable to discuss, but you may rest assured that my opinion is unlikely to threaten you.

[iDEATH]

Context is everything. Take "Cunt" for example, in certain circles, Cunt is the worst thing you could ever say to someone. Go back a century or two though, and it was nothing more than a slang term for a vagina. Never intended to be an insult.

The root of the word is actually Cunina, the Roman goddess who watched over and protected sleeping children, so the word actually has some really beautiful origins.

 

The power of "Cunt" differs around the world, what's a major insult in the US I've heard used more like a comma in Scotland.

"Haw you ya mad cunt, coming doon Doogie's wae me? Cunt's goat the new Fifa and he's asked a bunch a cunt's roon fur uh bevvie. That cunt's cummin that owes me a tenner. If ah see the cunt i'll kick ee's fuckin' cunt in"

 

So in the uk it's not a massive deal, context is everything to the power of a word. If you called someone a flashlight with enough venom the it'd be an offensive word......

[Tara]

To me, it's not so much that what they say then becomes less credible, so muh as I loose respect I've gained from them. For example, I had a great teacher that was able to gt his message across clearly, in a entertaining and understandable fashion. He did this without the need for any language. Same teacher a few weeks later begins to casually put the occasional word here and there. In his mind, it was high school, everyone did it, why care if I do it. But that's what I like about him. He didnt have to use any language to make him sound intelligent or relatable. It was just there to be there. It just made me feel uncomfortable to here him say that. Especially since I was and am still against randomly throwing around language. I just lost my respect for him until he decided that he didn't need to try to be like high schoolers to do his job well.

The point being, when someone very credible that I look up to starts spouting "fuck" or "shit", it really does make me question whether I want to be like that person. Not just because of my beliefs, but also beause of my standards.

Edit: I hope this doesn't come off as me sounding like people who swear don't deserve my respect. It's just a different lifestyle compared to mine, and its their life. Those people still do great things. I'd just prefer no swearing lol.

I believe there is a way to look up to someone without approving entirely of their method.  What I think is that you should look up to traits of people, not people themselves.  If you admire the level of conveyance and relatability this teacher has, then look up that trait, not him in particular.  That's not to say people shouldn't be commended for their strengths and good deeds, but it's always best to remember that no person is perfect.  We look up to Abaraham Lincoln as a pivotal figure for civil rights movement, due to his actions which freed the slaves.  That's a great deed and all, but some research I did on the matter suggests that although Lincoln did believe the slaves were entitled to equal rights, he honestly didn't care one way or the other if they actually had them.  (Of course, I read that in a book published by National Georgraphic, so any savvy historians may feel free to correct me here)

 

Yeah, Abraham Lincoln wasn't morally perfect, but we still look up to him because despite his shortcomings, he exhibited great leadership skills.  Anyway, that's a different thing.  I'm just saying, I see no reason why you shouldn't look up to him or have a desire to be him in one regard, while still disapproving of one aspect of their personality.  My own personal stance with profanity is that I don't care about it in the slightest when it's used as a non-literal curse.  In playful conversation, I don't mind throwing around words as though their definition is without relevance, because in that particular conversation, the defenition hardly is relevant.  In actual conversations or in formal atmospheres, I try to keep profanity to a minimum because of the unintended side effect it has to punctuate words the wrong way.

 

 

I kinda drifted off the point a little during that wall of text, but to echo the comments above, I essentially think that words always have context, partly because their supposed loss of context can in fact be a result of their original context.  And to say that I avoid using profanities because they are inelegant words on inelegant subjects.  You could argue that a standard of politeness like that is either just plain irrelevant or helps to enforce patriarchal or class-based standards of what is acceptable rather than participating in what you might call the democratisation of discourse whereby society more broadly determines its own standards of what is acceptable to discuss, but you may rest assured that my opinion is unlikely to threaten you.

Fair point.  I avoid profanity in my forum posts because I feel they give off the wrong air when used wrongly, but if you asked any of my friends who have watched or heard me play Mega Man or Castlevania, they'll probably tell you that my mouth is far from clean.  Perhaps what I'm looking for is not so much "context" but the thoughts that come to mind.  Diogenes made a great example with the word "shit" because in just about every context, the first thing we think of is... well, shit.  With words like "fucking," and "bastard" for example, we don't think of their dictionary definitions when we say them half the time.  So when I talk to one of my friends and call him a "fucking bastard," as a playful jab, I'm not saying that he's a person conceived out of wedlock who engages in sexual activity.  I'm just calling him what sounds like a strong insult, but the dictionary definition does not immediately register in our minds.

 

That's where the N. word differs, I suppose.  Because no matter how you say it, black people will always be the first thought that pops in one's mind.  That's probably also why I'm not immediately offended at people who use the word "faggot."  Sure, I wish they would think of a better word to use, but to be honest, despite being called that for the longest time, I didn't know what the word actually meant until I was about thirteen.  So I guess from my perspective, it doesn't seem as bad, because I can understand what it's like to simply not know what it means, and I can see how someone would choose to use it without homoeroticism even entering one's brain, where as the the N. word has pretty much always had a racist connotation for as long as I've known it was a word.  I'm not dismissing ignorance as justification for using a word that is clearly derogatory in all contexts, but I'd much rather be called a faggot (playfully or otherwise) by someone whom I know doesn't really mean it than someone who very much understands what it means and uses it to deliberately mean that.

 

Yes, every word has context in some way or form, but without the other words to connect it in a sentence, I don't feel it should have the same power.  Two guys shouting "fuck" as they lose at a video game, for example, should not have the same power as a couple in bedroom where one says "I want to fuck."  But at least in the US, it seems the word itself is the only thing that matters.  Diogenes, again, made a great example with the word "shit."  Shit is something that can't be offended.  On the other hand, who gets offended with "fuck?"  People who fuck?  Does the action of fucking getting offended?

 

Of course, that's not to say that we should just toss around the word "fuck" in public like its meaning isn't important.  My mom, being a teacher's assistant, can tell you all about the horrors of "-uck" day during the time of the school year when they teach about rhyming words.  Nine times out of ten, more than one of the students has heard the word used before and are curious about its definition.  So because of its sexual meaning, it's natural we shouldn't treat it as acceptable towards or around younger kids who aren't ready to comprehend those sort of matters, let alone understand where and when it would be more appropriate.

 

But the actual word, when devoid of that kind of situation, in my opinion, should not be treated as harmful when there is literally no target in the word and the actual definition of the word isn't brought to anyone's attention.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Akito

[Mollfie]

Context is everything. Take "Cunt" for example, in certain circles, Cunt is the worst thing you could ever say to someone. Go back a century or two though, and it was nothing more than a slang term for a vagina. Never intended to be an insult.

The root of the word is actually Cunina, the Roman goddess who watched over and protected sleeping children, so the word actually has some really beautiful origins.

 

The power of "Cunt" differs around the world, what's a major insult in the US I've heard used more like a comma in Scotland.

"Haw you ya mad cunt, coming doon Doogie's wae me? Cunt's goat the new Fifa and he's asked a bunch a cunt's roon fur uh bevvie. That cunt's cummin that owes me a tenner. If ah see the cunt i'll kick ee's fuckin' cunt in"

 

So in the uk it's not a massive deal, context is everything to the power of a word. If you called someone a flashlight with enough venom the it'd be an offensive word......

 

You say it's not a big deal in the UK, and yet pretty much every person I know considers cunt to be the worst thing you could possibly ever say.

 

Of course context matters, and like others have said there are many different kinds of context to take into consideration. But, I still don't consider swearing to be a bad thing in general.

 

Also, interestingly. swear words are processed in a different area of our brain to usual, everyday words. Swear words are processed lower in the brain, in the same area as emotions and instincts. Scientists think that while our brain processes most words phonetically (as a sequence of sound units), swear words are processed as a whole word at a time. Which is probably why if you hurt yourself, you swear and that makes you feel a bit better.

To quote Stephen Fry: “Swearing is a really important part of one’s life. It would be impossible to imagine going through life without swearing, and without enjoying swearing. There used to be mad, silly, prissy people who used to say swearing was a sign of a poor vocabulary. It is such utter nonsense. The people I know who swear the most tend to have the widest vocabularies, and the kind of person who says swearing is a sign of a poor vocabulary usually have a poor vocabulary themselves. The sort of twee person who thinks swearing is in any way a sign of a lack of education or a lack of verbal interest is just a fucking lunatic. I haven’t met anybody who’s truly shocked at swearing… really. They’re only shocked on behalf of other people. Well, you know, that’s preposterous. Or they say, “It’s not necessary," as if that should stop one doing it. It’s not necessary to have coloured socks, it’s not necessary for this cushion to be here, but is anyone going to write in and say, “I was shocked to see that cushion there, it really wasn’t necessary"? No. Things not being necessary is what makes life interesting. The little extras in life.”

Edited August 7, 2013 by Mollfie

[Turbo the Punk]

Everyone, please forgive my lengthy breakdown post. Thanks in advance.

 

 

Or perhaps the better question would be: Should words have power without context? The idea for this topic stems from a slight debacle in the status updates whereby a certain four-letter word became the subject of controversy amongst various members. Some members were offended, while others did not see any reason to be offended. But I'm not going to go into lengthy detail about that, since it was yesterday's news and I'm referring to vocabulary as a whole, not just that one word.

In general I believe words themselves have as much power as you (the individual) tend to give them. Myself, I'd never use the word "fuck" to signify fornication, nor would I use shit to refer to the act of defecating and so on. While these words were taken much more literally in past years generations ago at this point in time these are just explicits that we as a society use or don't use for whatever reasons. Usually I'll say phrases such as "fuck this shit", or "damn the motherfucker", etc in a context that's expressing humor of joking or expressing frustration, usually the former. I don't mind saying such words and I don't mind mind when others use such words, mainly because I try to remain an open minded person.

 

Regarding personal choice of using these supposed taboo words, sure you take into mind what the majority finds profane as well, but if the word "fuck" is in your common vocabulary there is no way to get around that. Myself for example, I'm a very vocal person that while usually reserved will not hesitate in using what the mainstream considers as profane. "Fuck", "shit", "damn" and other words and similar variants when I find that it's needed. Now, I could express myself in a much more intellectual manner, but what's the use if it's a casual situation?

 

 

Let me start with a minor example which has roots in my early childhood. Growing up in a Christ-centered household, I was often told that the word “Hell” was a very naughty thing to say. I should never under any circumstances tell something to go there, nor should I interject “What the hell?” In short, the word “hell” was simply off limits to me. So, one day, coming home from Sunday School, I asked my parents why it was okay for the teacher as well as the pastor to say hell, and not me. They told me that the word “hell” is only a bad word if it is said in a bad way. If, for example, you're referring specifically to the place, not using it in a manner to target or belittle someone, then it's no longer profane. So one day, I got into a religious discussion with my parents and I used the word “hell,” referring specifically to the place, not as a means of belittling anyone. I didn't tell anyone to go there, nor did I suggest that someone would. Can you guess what happened?

 

Yup, I got in trouble for it. Because “hell” is a bad word. It didn't matter that I was using it in the context that I was told not long beforehand was perfectly acceptable. Why was it offensive then? Is the word “hell” itself a harmful word to say? Does it matter what context? My theory is simply that at the time I was just a kid, and the last thing any parent wants their child to talk about is hell and damnation. Parents envision their children as the closest thing to perfect angels, and discussions of eternal condemnation would only soil the image of innocence that many parents wish to hold onto for as long as they can. It isn't helped that I'm the youngest in the family, which means they'll want to hold onto that innocence for longer than rightfully so.

 

But in an ideal society, should that be the case? Should certain words rub us the wrong way, regardless of contextual purpose?

In regard to you and your parents and the word "hell", the main reason for abstainence of useage of the word seems to be based off not only a cultural sense of taboo, but an additional religious perogative.

 

In that regard I'm of no use, as my parents nor any of my family members could give two flying fucks what I say, and to top it off I have never been involved much in traditional orthodox religion. What I mainly see in your parents reasoning and so many other people like them is that they are attempting to push religion as a motivation to not use said "profane" words, which is really a shame. No one can really go against their religion from simply using words of expression. Hell, the bible itself is ridden with profanities, so that logic is screwed right there.

 

I won't diverge deeper as I'll likely rub people the wrong way here if I go into religion any further, but I just have to it it's all bullshit. You won't rot in hell just because you choose to use the word "hell". Likewise if you say god damn it, which I refrain from using because like I said, never been big on orthodox religion. If anything your parents were brainwashed into having such strong beliefs over ridiculous crap. Context and beliefs go together greatly.

 

 

Here's some more words that my parents would threaten to wash my mouth out with soap if I was ever caught even thinking about: damn, shit, ass, jackass, fuck, faggot, bitch, and bastard. As I grew older, the list expanded to include words like: dick, slut, skank, cunt, cock, tits, whore, blow, and many, many more.

 

Now, to be clear, this isn't an argument on rather these words should be considered profanity. I don't find any of these words offensive in and of themselves, but I do see why they would be, and I find the idea that “they're just words” to be a terrible argument to suggest otherwise. Words aren't just words. Words aren't just a series of organized vocal cord vibrations and tongue movements. Words have weight; they carry the weight of definition, connotation, and up to hundreds of thousands of years worth of history. They are not just words, they are words with meanings, and some people are offended by those meanings. Am I saying you should be offended by them? Am I saying that you're a bad person if you use them? No. Absolutely not. It's perfectly okay to not be offended by something, but it's nothing to brag about either. Because we all come from different walks of life, there are many reasons one may get offended, and language happens to be one of those things that communicate offense rather intentionally or not.

Touching on what I said above, the context of said words all ties into your beliefs which may or may not be skewed, and your usage itself. Personally I just see everything you listed as another word. Nothing unusual at all.

 

 

As a more controversial example, let's look at the a lovely six letter word that starts with an “N.” Because I am by every stretch of the word Caucasian, society has led me to believe that I am not entitled to even utter the word. So for the sake of comedy, let's say the word is boingy. It doesn't start with an N., but it's sooooooo cute. Anyway, knowing what the word means and the history behind it, I don't find myself entitled to say it anyway. I would never use that word to refer to anyone, because I don't view people of any race that way. In fact, I would think terribly of someone who did use such a word so loosely and without any care or deliberation. On the other hand, I support LGBT equality in every single possible regard, but I still have friends and a huge pool of family that is very loose and careless with the word “faggot.” Now, on the one hand, I'm not very close to a lot of the members of my family and this word is one of the many reasons why. So with that said, how can I be close to the friends and family that do use this word, while distant form the others that are guilty of the same crime? Well, it all boils down to “purpose” and “context.”

 

When I examine the messages being communicated to me, I try not to think about the words they say, but what they mean when they say it. From what I gather, the friends that I know who are open with the word “faggot” use it more habitually and don't use it with deliberately homophobic intentions. Many of said friends are very vocal proponents of LGBT rights and wouldn't dream of doing any physical or emotional harm to someone solely because of a difference in orientation. The same can't be said about the other members of my family that very much do use the word to literally mean “homosexual person” in a derogatory and condemning manner. A particularly stinging quote “Barack Obama says it's okay to be a fucking faggot,” comes to mind. I guess the difference between “boingy” and “faggot” is that most people who use it understand the connotation. They know very well what it means and what harm it could do to someone, but even if they don't use it with the intent of offending someone, they often use it simply because they indirectly believe they're above the idea of being considerate to others. Or maybe I'm just a bit of a hypocrite. Either way, it shows exactly what I'm talking about: Difference walks of life, different reasons to be offended.

With the word faggot I've come to the point where I've seen the word and similars ones (gay for example) become less of a profane slur and more of a indication of a negative connotation. Now, is affiliating those words with negative connotations bad for those who identify as LGBT, sure, but with any luck the words will take a more positive meaning in the future. In 50 years time "gay" will likely never be seen as taboo, and more of a reference to homosexuals. "Faggot" however I see continuing with said negative connotations, but what can you do? It's not my word of choice, but I'll slip it out every once in a while.

 

Now, in regard to the word N***** (which I chose to censor as personally I do find that word and other racial epithets disrespectful, nevermind the ramifictions that follow with usage) that and similar slurs are not so much profanities, but rather epithets that carry much stronger meaning than your average profanity. Calling someone a dumbfuck of motherfucker is one thing, we can all be dumbfucks and we can all be motherfuckers. Calling someone a N***** or a S*** and so on is different as said epithets are targeting something out of someones controls. I know we all didn't get to pick our race, ethnicity, or skin color so to make and perpetuate hate out of that seems ridiculous and very low.

 

Again, being open minded I don't see differences, we're all people on this sole planet living together. I'm not going to be hating just because someone else is of a different backgroung than myself. Again, that's low to the extreme.

 

 

As another personal example that does not involve language, here's something I will never joke about. I will never find this funny, no matter how beautifully crafted the joke is, or how much you clearly had no intention of offending anyone. I will never find domestic abuse funny. When I was fifteen or so, my BFF was nearly murdered by her father. Had her neighbors not been outside at the time, there's no telling if she'd be here today. This wasn't the first time her father had been physically and verbally abusive to his family, and it wouldn't be his last time either. Knowing that there exists people who would hurt their own children, their own spouses, that they would hurt anyone deliberately is something that tears my heart to shreds. Because of my experiences with my best friend, I have seen what years of abuse has done to her and that is the point where my humor switch turns off. Sure, there are many people, some maybe even on this very board, who had it far worse than her, but because I've never experienced it, it doesn't strike a personal chord with me. I've made jokes about murder, discrimination, and bullying, and even though I'm willing to admit that none of those were any less distasteful than a joke about domestic abuse, for some reason, that's where I personally draw the line. It's terrible and it is a form of hypocrisy that I've yet to overcome.

 

It's for that reason, however, that I don't judge people who do joke about that sort of thing. I feel justified in saying that I have every right to be offended at the joke, don't get me wrong, but I do not have a right to tell you that you can't make it just because it's where I, personally, draw the line. The same can be said for language. Just because I'm offended by someone's use of a word doesn't mean I'm entitled to tell people they can't use it or that they should stop what they're doing.

Fair enough, and having such strong feelings on the subject is fine. One thing though, no one need be profane to make jokes of any nature, so personally I find all of that is in it's own category, but I digress. Glad to see your friend come out alive nonetheless, now continuing.

 

 

It's not just a matter of jokes, however. Going back to that list of words, is it just as profane for me to have listed those words as it is to have used them in context? If I told you that your “ass” was your gluteus maximus, or that to “fuck” was to sexually penetrate, or that a “bitch” is an archaic word for female dog but has since garnered the connotation of a disagreeable female, would it be just as profane as saying “you're an ass,” or “fuck you,” or “you're a bitch?” Sure, I just made the argument that words aren't just words, but words without context are just gibberish. Again, with the more controversial example, should I really have to replace a historical word with a comical sound effect, even if I'm clearing using it as to exemplify how bad it is? Should I really be scared of being shunned or accused of racism simply because of a six-letter word that ultimately holds little weight in the context I'm using it?

Like I said, many variables to this. Again, perhaps it's just me, but profanity holds little weight to me, while I clearly stated that racial slurs are just one of the lowest forms of insults. All depends how you look at it I suppose.

 

 

I personally think it's ridiculous that anyone should be upset at the presence of the word, rather than the sentence it's used in. Yes, I understand that words have long and sometimes violent histories, but in an ideal society, shouldn't we be attempting to eliminate our reasons for being offended? Instead, when we decide that certain words are taboo rather than actual contexts, we look for another reason to be offended, rather than listening to the overall point and seeking understanding. Sure, I understand some words have a certain connotation. I'm avid about avoiding the word “rape” unless I'm discussing the matter on a serious level because my mind tells me “rape is bad,” but others use it casually to describe many things that don't involve the tragic circumstances that surround rape. While I would like to tell them how that offends me, I know that it would ultimately be the wrong thing to do. I can't ask people to change, and likewise, they can't ask me to change. So instead of getting offended at their callous use of the word, I would instead focus on what they mean when they say it. Perhaps I'll agree with them, perhaps not. Either way, despite the true meaning of the word, I'm not offended at them personally, because they weren't making light of the actual matter. The same applies to domestic abuse; even though I instantly lose my humor at the mention of it, I don't allow it to severely influence my opinion on a person unless they actually are making light of the matter. I know some people that do make those sort of jokes. I don't laugh at them, but I do know in my heart that if they ever met someone who suffered from such a thing, they wouldn't laugh. They'd handle the situation with the proper dignity and respect, because there's a difference between reality and what people may consider humorous scenarios.

Likewise, I share the exact sentiments you decipted. If we as a society want to be more accepting than we should reduce what's considered offensive. Sadly that'll never happen as our cultures worldwide are so divided as of now. I'd give it another century or so to becoming much more accepting, to be quite honest.

 

On the latter part I guess it has to do with personal life. I dare say this is a contradicting point to what you are advocating, but I digress.

 

 

Which brings me to my final point, “why?” Why do words have power when they're not being used properly. Why do these words themselves have power, and not the sentences they're attached to? Why is shouting “fuck!” so taboo when I'm clearly not suggesting that anyone be literally fucked? Why should I be scared to say “damn it” in public when I know I'm not really wishing for someone to be damned? Why should some words be offensive just because they're there, rather than because they mean anything? I'm not making a statement here, either. I have select words that rub me the wrong way as well, I am merely asking what I feel is a legitimate question. Why is it offensive if it doesn't mean anything?

 

My main hypothesis when I was contemplating this topic was simply that those words brought back memories that some people don't want to be brought back. But then I figured, you know, I'm pretty sure nobody here was alive to face the struggles that are associated with when that word was coined. Boingy is an exception because racism is still a thing that happens to this day, but even then, not many people I know that try to defend its position as an obscene word use that as their reasoning. They always bring up the years of slavery and oppression, which is a fair point, but they never mention it in a way that involves their own oppression. You can't feel the torment of your ancestors. You can only feel your own torment. I'm not trying to be unsympathetic. I do find slavery and segregation and modern day racism to be a travesty, but it's simply true that you can not feel the persecution from the time of your ancestors, only that which has happened to you. I can say that I've experienced persecution and phobias of my own differences, but I can't say I've felt the persecution and phobias of my ancestor's differences.

 

I also considered that maybe it's like me and the word rape, where in my ideal world, it would only be brought up with tact and dignity, and to bring it up any other way would be obscene. But then I thought, you know, in the case of words like “jackass,” are donkeys really that obscene? In the case of the word “bastard,” is it really so bad in this day and age that someone should have to sulk because their mother and father weren't married at the time they exited the womb? Even though I experience the same sensation myself, I don't understand why it is, and I can't help but think it's a little unnecessary and impedes on our ability to grow and mature as one.

 

In short, the main two questions in this topic are, in an ideal society, should words be offensive even if they are devoid of context and purpose, and why are they currently?

So, in conclusion, I'd say there are too many factors to give a clear and concise answer that would apply to a majority in society. To some profanity is no big deal, same with racial slurs. On the flipside though you have those that won't mention anything racial, or even religious for the matter but will still throw curses. Other still would have a panic attack reading this thread alone due to the so called explicit nature of it. I guess it is what you make of it.

 

Lastly, thanks for opening this discussion. It really touched light on a lot of excellent points and there is much to be learned from this. As you can tell I could continue for hours and days discussing this subject. At the end of the day though you're back at square one and you really haven't swayed anyones beliefs. No use trying to change someones view. I have other stuff to worry about than that.

 

As they say, who gives a fucking damn?

 

Turbo out.

[Tara]

In general I believe words themselves have as much power as you (the individual) tend to give them. Myself, I'd never use the word "fuck" to signify fornication, nor would I use shit to refer to the act of defecating and so on. While these words were taken much more literally in past years generations ago at this point in time these are just explicits that we as a society use or don't use for whatever reasons. Usually I'll say phrases such as "fuck this shit", or "damn the motherfucker", etc in a context that's expressing humor of joking or expressing frustration, usually the former. I don't mind saying such words and I don't mind mind when others use such words, mainly because I try to remain an open minded person.

 

Regarding personal choice of using these supposed taboo words, sure you take into mind what the majority finds profane as well, but if the word "fuck" is in your common vocabulary there is no way to get around that. Myself for example, I'm a very vocal person that while usually reserved will not hesitate in using what the mainstream considers as profane. "Fuck", "shit", "damn" and other words and similar variants when I find that it's needed. Now, I could express myself in a much more intellectual manner, but what's the use if it's a casual situation?

That's pretty much my mindset on the matter.  Most words have very little meaning to me outside of the sentences they're a part of.  Rather you call something "mediocre" or a "god damn pile of fucking shit" is irrelevant to me, though one does pack a more potent punch in terms of descriptive quality.

 

 

 

In regard to you and your parents and the word "hell", the main reason for abstainence of useage of the word seems to be based off not only a cultural sense of taboo, but an additional religious perogative.

 

In that regard I'm of no use, as my parents nor any of my family members could give two flying fucks what I say, and to top it off I have never been involved much in traditional orthodox religion. What I mainly see in your parents reasoning and so many other people like them is that they are attempting to push religion as a motivation to not use said "profane" words, which is really a shame. No one can really go against their religion from simply using words of expression. Hell, the bible itself is ridden with profanities, so that logic is screwed right there.

 

I won't diverge deeper as I'll likely rub people the wrong way here if I go into religion any further, but I just have to it it's all bullshit. You won't rot in hell just because you choose to use the word "hell". Likewise if you say god damn it, which I refrain from using because like I said, never been big on orthodox religion. If anything your parents were brainwashed into having such strong beliefs over ridiculous crap. Context and beliefs go together greatly.

 

 

I don't see it as using religion to prevent someone from using the word, since the problem, if it is indeed a problem, extends to atheists, agnostics and families that generally just do not identify as any sort of religion one way or the other.  Forbidding certain words is not a religious practice, it is a familial practice.

 

 

 

Touching on what I said above, the context of said words all ties into your beliefs which may or may not be skewed, and your usage itself. Personally I just see everything you listed as another word. Nothing unusual at all.

 

 

To me, they are completely harmless as well, but the point I was making is that I don't think any less of people who do find them offensive because there are reasons why they are offensive.  Rather they're good reasons or not could be an endless debate, but I hate the mindset of "I'm offended that you're offended" and find it to be just as harmful as the mindset of being offended at individual words as opposed to overall messages.

 

 

 

With the word faggot I've come to the point where I've seen the word and similars ones (gay for example) become less of a profane slur and more of a indication of a negative connotation. Now, is affiliating those words with negative connotations bad for those who identify as LGBT, sure, but with any luck the words will take a more positive meaning in the future. In 50 years time "gay" will likely never be seen as taboo, and more of a reference to homosexuals. "Faggot" however I see continuing with said negative connotations, but what can you do? It's not my word of choice, but I'll slip it out every once in a while.

 

 

As far as I'm concerned, faggot will always have a bit of negative connotation.  But I think in time people will use it more satirically than anything, just as we no longer use words like "carpetbagger" seriously.

 

 

 

Now, in regard to the word N***** (which I chose to censor as personally I do find that word and other racial epithets disrespectful, nevermind the ramifictions that follow with usage) that and similar slurs are not so much profanities, but rather epithets that carry much stronger meaning than your average profanity. Calling someone a dumbfuck of motherfucker is one thing, we can all be dumbfucks and we can all be motherfuckers. Calling someone a N***** or a S*** and so on is different as said epithets are targeting something out of someones controls. I know we all didn't get to pick our race, ethnicity, or skin color so to make and perpetuate hate out of that seems ridiculous and very low.

 

Again, being open minded I don't see differences, we're all people on this sole planet living together. I'm not going to be hating just because someone else is of a different backgroung than myself. Again, that's low to the extreme.

 

 

This.  Very much this.  I'm not sure why I failed to put this into words.  But you're very much right, although I could argue the correlation between genetics and sexuality, which would make the word "faggot" equally damning, but that's a different discussion that I don't intend on getting into.

 

 

 

Fair enough, and having such strong feelings on the subject is fine. One thing though, no one need be profane to make jokes of any nature, so personally I find all of that is in it's own category, but I digress. Glad to see your friend come out alive nonetheless, now continuing.

 

 

Well, my point was that everyone has a "don't touch this" point.  Everybody has something that they're sensitive to, and language can, but doesn't necessarily have to be, one of them.  Some people draw the line at "damning," others draw the line at "fucking."  It doesn't matter how casual or how well-meaning the conversation may be, some people draw lines at those specific points, and that's their decision.  I was basically extending the clause "people have reasons for why they get offended at something, and undermining that is inconsiderate and self-absorbed."

 

 

 

Likewise, I share the exact sentiments you decipted. If we as a society want to be more accepting than we should reduce what's considered offensive. Sadly that'll never happen as our cultures worldwide are so divided as of now. I'd give it another century or so to becoming much more accepting, to be quite honest.

 

On the latter part I guess it has to do with personal life. I dare say this is a contradicting point to what you are advocating, but I digress.

 

 

Well, being offended has its rightful place in society.  If we were never offended, we would never advance in our endeavors to understand one another.

 

As for the contradictory statement, I'm not sure what you're getting at.  I avoid some words myself, because those words hold a lot of weight to me, but even if the words do rub me the wrong way upon reading or hearing, I don't get offended at the use of the words, but the way it's used.

 

 

 

Lastly, thanks for opening this discussion. It really touched light on a lot of excellent points and there is much to be learned from this. As you can tell I could continue for hours and days discussing this subject. At the end of the day though you're back at square one and you really haven't swayed anyones beliefs. No use trying to change someones view. I have other stuff to worry about than that.

 

 

Maybe not, but it's interesting to hear what others have to say on the matter. =P

[Amomynous]

Excuse me if it has regional variations, but as a British native, arse,ass or jackass really isn't considered profane at all here, as an insult it's only slightly stronger than 'jerk' and in bodily terms 'arse' is lot like 'boobs' in terms of vulgarity. Jackass is just considered calling someone a donkey and 'ass' seems to have gathered the meaning of both.

 

I suppose arse/ass is  pretty bad if you think about it's implication as an insult, which is 'a place where shit comes from.'

Thinking of 'jerk', I believe it's related to 'jerking off' ,so taken literally, is synonymous with 'wanker' though it seems to have lost that meaning entirely.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Amomynous

[Tara]

Excuse me if it has regional variations, but as a British native, arse,ass or jackass really isn't considered profane at all here, as an insult it's only slightly stronger than 'jerk' and in bodily terms 'arse' is lot like 'boobs' in terms of vulgarity. Jackass is just considered calling someone 'stubborn like a donkey' and 'ass' seems to have gathered the meaning of both.

 

I suppose arse/ass is  pretty bad if you think about it's implication as an insult, which is 'a place where shit comes from.'

We 'murikans are vury sensitive about our butts.

[Yoko/葉子]

Personally, I find some words offensive no matter what context, for example if it's a four letter word I forbid myself from using, I think you are saying someone should be sexually harmed or in immense fear.

[DocAzure]

I restrict myself to not swearing in public, I think some people find it anti-social, so I avoid it. In private though, I swear pretty casually, mostly because I don't get what the big deal is. I mean, I understand why you might be offended by it, but I wouldn't unless it was used as an insult against me. When I swear, I'm not intending it to harm anyone, I'm just trying to add a little colour to my vocabulary.

[Salamander]

One thing worth mentioning about "faggot" is that it has had other meanings.  Dictionary.com cites it as perhaps originally a derogatory term for a woman, but I've more commonly seen it in books of a few hundred years ago referring to a bundle of twigs used as kindling on a fire.  I've also seen an episode of Agatha Christie's Poirot in which Inspector Japp offers Poirot faggot, here signifying some rather cheap meat dish.  I couldn't believe my ears - but that can only have dated from 1989 at the earliest, and been repeated far more recently.  It's a clear example of linguistic evolution.  How do you change your own use of language if a word you used to use normally acquires a prominent alternative life as a vulgarity?  Or even vice-versa - what is your approach to a now neutral word that used to be profanity?  We may find ourselves faced with these questions in our lives.