Are you satisfied with the direction of the series; if not what would you change?

[Kuzu]

I don't get how current Sonic, at least character wise is becomming anything remotely similar ro Mario honestly. He's cocky, impatient, cracks puns, like, you don't have to like it but saying its anywhere on the same level of non identity as Mario is just not true imo.

 

I think when people say that, they're talking about in terms of plotting, and aesthetics; which considering all of the comparisons to Mario Galaxy since Colors, that complaint isn't too unjustified.

[Exploder]

I have to say, it does feel like the design of the last two games in the series, Colors and Generations, were dictated almost entirely out of artistic cowardice, not daring to do this, not daring to do that, because otherwise idiots might complain...something I never see in literally any other game series, ever. So hell no.

 

As for Lost World, well, we'll just have to see. Given the current track record though, and that once again Sonic is the only one playable, I have a strong feeling it might be a strike three.

[ArtFenix]

Hell no, I'm not happy with the direction they're going. Thing is, Sonic games used to be much more than games. It used to be a populated universe with living creatures, their everyday life, their conversations with each other, their problems and how they dealt with them. The world was also there.

Now Sonic games are just... games. Games with random levels, most of them having no story value as to why Sonic is there and how he got there. Games with so few characters that that world with random levels feels like a ghost town. Sonic-only doesn't help the case.

Stories used to be epic and used to make you emphasize with the characters and events. Now stories are just...there.

 

Sonic games also used to have that "cool" factor that is no longer present. Instead, we have overly cartoony experience aimed mostly at little children (age 4-6). It goes to levels, stories, tone and enemies.

 

I'd write much more but right now I don't feel like doing so, especially knowing the tendency, I'll have to get into a huge argument with several people at the same time who will try to say I'm wrong or worse things. I don't want to do that so I'll leave everything as it is. My opinion on the subject is as follows: after Unleashed (heck, after 06) Sonic games started to lose one thing after another to the point that now they're just games which you don't even really want to go back to once you complete them and aside from the gameplay (and maybe music) there is almost nothing left.

Edited August 13, 2013 by ArtFenix

[Diogenes]

I have to say, it does feel like the design of the last two games in the series, Colors and Generations, were dictated almost entirely out of artistic cowardice,

What about Colors seemed like cowardice?

[pppp]

It used to be a populated universe with living creatures, their everyday life, their conversations with each other, their problems and how they dealt with them.

 

Well if by that you mean we should have more boring missions where we walk a dog or do math problems then i guess I'm happy that's no longer a thing.

[ArtFenix]

Well if by that you mean we should have more boring missions where we walk a dog or do math problems then i guess I'm happy that's no longer a thing.

Are you even serious.

......honestly, sometimes it looks like some people try to mock me or make fun of me because I really have no idea how you could get that from my previous post.

 

 

Alright. I was talking about this kind of thing.

Edited August 13, 2013 by ArtFenix

[Vertekins]

Well if by that you mean we should have more boring missions where we walk a dog or do math problems then i guess I'm happy that's no longer a thing.

 

'06 is a terrible example to use to justify the barebones stuff we're getting. Especially in light of games like Unleashed that had a very palpable level of detail and effort invested into it to make it a truly elaborative and detail-oriented experience regarding worldbuilding and NPC's.

[pppp]

Honestly i don't understand the demand for a "living and breathing world where we familiarize with the populace". Sonic has never been about that kind of stuff. I never got that from the classics, when i play Sonic 2 i feel like I'm playing a selection of random levels and it's still my favorite Sonic game. Sonic 3 tried to make it better by having level-to-level cutscenes but it still didn't work. How exactly do you go from a desert to a volcano by just walking a few steps? It doesn't work that way guys.

 

Sonic Adventure had 3 hubs, but aside from the woman that is trying to invite some guy for a date, none of them do anything worthy of mention. Majora's Mask it is not.

 

Sonic Adventure 2 had complete focus on the plot so aside from the generic character-less citizens being scared of the Eclipse Cannon there's no connection to the world of the game.

 

Heroes and Shadow had 2 of the most retarded scripts in the world that failed at everything they tried to do.

 

06 had overly huge overworlds where the only things that happen are missions as boring and generic as can be that don't even tell us anything about these people as characters.

 

Unleashed was in my opinion the best attempt of the series at creating a world, there were some characters that were memorable and the way you affect the actual state of the planet is cool, but it was still just an ok effort when we compare it to games that do this kind of thing much better.

 

The Storybook games did have some sense of how to do it, specially Black Knight, but again nothing noteworthy.

 

Basically my point is that everytime SEGA tries to do that it always leaves a lot to be desired. In my view SEGA finally realised this so they decided to focus on what they can do better.

 

I would rather have games where the developers focus on what they can do better rather then try to have things that is clearly not their thing. Not to mention the classics didn't really try to create any kind of world feel, and they're still Sonic's best games.

 

That's why I'm happy with the current direction of the series. It actually has focus.

[SilentDoom]

It's rather difficult to say at the moment.  If this question was asked after Generations came out, and we thought that the proceeding games were going to keep to the boost formula I would've definitively said no.  Not because I disliked Generations (quite the opposite, it still remains to be my favourite 3D Sonic game as a whole) but because of I felt the style would've got stale rather quickly, that developing games to cater to that style was impractical (Generations for example was in development for about 3 years yet overall it's a rather short game and various elements of it feel rather incomplete) and I was just tired of the boost mechanic as it undermines a number of the other mechanics of the game.  

 

However, with Lost World on the horizon I'm not quite so sure any more and until I get the opportunity to play Lost World in its entirety I still cannot be sure.  Lost World is such a radical change from what we're all used to, despite Sega's PR dribble about how it's Sonic going back to the series' roots.  Additionally since it's such a radical change, what's to stop Sega pulling off more radical changes to the series such as this in the future.  After all at Sonic Boom Iizuka did say that they're always constantly trying to mix up the series and whilst I can appreciate the fact that they're constantly trying to make each Sonic experience stand out from the last, you don't have to completely reinvent the foundations of each game to do so.  It ends up just dividing the fanbase.

 

On the other hand, what I do appreciate about Lost World so far is just how vivid an experience it seems to be so far.  And no I'm not talking about visuals or even presentation (even though I'm pretty content with the art style, graphics and I love the fact that it's 60 FPS) but more how much variety there is in the gameplay so far.  As a Sonic fan, I stand by the opinion that Mario's games are still head over heels better than Sonic's.  The Galaxy games are vastly superior to anything Sonic has come out with since the early 90s, and are two of the greatest platformers ever created.  Why?  They're pure, refined experiences that focus on delivering varied, distinct level designs punctuated with interesting and fun level gimmicks whilst the game as whole is presented in this grandiose way that makes you feel like you're going on a great adventure.  The primary focus is gameplay, and it pulls it off in spectacular fashion.  I get a fair bit of this from Lost World so far but as aforementioned it's difficult to say overall because there are various elements of the game we don't know.  We've only seen a tiny portion of the total levels in the game, we have no idea about the progression of the game, we know almost nothing about the plot on how characters will interact and we don't know what kind of additional content the game will offer or how you obtain said content.  Nonetheless, I'm rather glad they're pulling back various elements of the other 3D games to focus on offering a more varied platforming experience.

 

Now note that I'm not saying these elements don't have the potential to do anything for the series.  Plot can help drive you through the game as a whole, and futher justifies incentive to play and good characterisation can help you better connect with the characters.  But honestly I don't feel that any Sonic game has pulled of developing a plot or building a world particularly well.  Whenever Sonic has tried (i.e. Adventure, 06 and Unleashed and....well that's it really) I thought he failed kind of miserably.  As though it's Sonic trying to channel the sort of world building you see in a JRPG except it just comes off as a pale imitation.  Empty, pointless and a waste of time.  Characterisation throughout the series has been up and down.  Some games have done it well, others haven't.  Again with regards to the direction of said characterisation it's hard to say until I get my hands on Lost World and get an idea not only on how the characters interact throughout the space of the game but also how it ties with the gameplay.  I feel that if Sonic were to try to build a greater focus on its characters and world, it should do it much more like the Ratchet and Clank series because the way those games do it I personally feel makes much more sense for a platformer.  A Crack in Time in particular does this in quite spectacular fashion in my opinion.  

[Kuzu]

Honestly i don't understand the demand for a "living and breathing world where we familiarize with the populace". Sonic has never been about that kind of stuff. I never got that from the classics, when i play Sonic 2 i feel like I'm playing a selection of random levels and it's still my favorite Sonic game. Sonic 3 tried to make it better by having level-to-level cutscenes but it still didn't work. How exactly do you go from a desert to a volcano by just walking a few steps? It doesn't work that way guys.

 

Sonic Adventure had 3 hubs, but aside from the woman that is trying to invite some guy for a date, none of them do anything worthy of mention. Majora's Mask it is not.

 

Sonic Adventure 2 had complete focus on the plot so aside from the generic character-less citizens being scared of the Eclipse Cannon there's no connection to the world of the game.

 

Heroes and Shadow had 2 of the most retarded scripts in the world that failed at everything they tried to do.

 

06 had overly huge overworlds where the only things that happen are missions as boring and generic as can be that don't even tell us anything about these people as characters.

 

Unleashed was in my opinion the best attempt of the series at creating a world, there were some characters that were memorable and the way you affect the actual state of the planet is cool, but it was still just an ok effort when we compare it to games that do this kind of thing much better.

 

The Storybook games did have some sense of how to do it, specially Black Knight, but again nothing noteworthy.

 

Basically my point is that everytime SEGA tries to do that it always leaves a lot to be desired. In my view SEGA finally realised this so they decided to focus on what they can do better.

 

I would rather have games where the developers focus on what they can do better rather then try to have things that is clearly not their thing. Not to mention the classics didn't really try to create any kind of world feel, and they're still Sonic's best games.

 

That's why I'm happy with the current direction of the series. It actually has focus.

 

 

...Dude, we're in 2013; why the hell should I be satisfied with a game from almost twenty years ago when so much can(and has) be done? This line of thinking makes no sense. The reason the classics didn't have all of that shit is because technological limitations, and when they got the tech they decided to push the bar. But you're going to tell me that because they messed up a a  few times that they should just never try again and forgo any attempt at world building in a favor of just an arcade style of play that stopped being relevant in 1999?

[pppp]

But you're going to tell me that because they messed up a a  few times that they should just never try again and forgo any attempt at world building in a favor of just an arcade style of play that stopped being relevant in 1999?

 

So they should keep trying it over and over till they succeed completely. Ok, i understand your point, but how many more times am i gonna have to deal with lackluster attempts? They never achieved that goal, what makes people think they can eventually do it?

 

In my opinion they had enough tries at it to make it obvious that they can't do it.

[Celestia]

In most aspects, I'd say I'm pretty happy with the current direction of the series. The new voice cast, the potential the new writers have shown on admittedly rare occasions (which may be realized if they were given more to work with, hopefully Lost World does so), the gameplay, etc...so, in those aspects they've been doing well, at least for me.

 

My main problem with the current direction is how the cast is being handled. Not just in terms of Sonic being the only playable character (don't get me wrong tho', I'm pretty sad about that!), but the reduced roles of other characters in general. This may be a gaming series but I don't see how most of the cast not being playable should keep them from being, well, useful. At least Generations recognized that they all have unique skills (for those partner missions), but in the actual story? Nope, nothing. Seriously, that cutscene before the Time Eater is embarrassing.

 

Oh, and I'll chip in and say I'd like to see a more consistent world; that is, recurring locations and minor characters. Like, if we saw a rebuilt Station Square, or one of the towns/cities in Unleashed--stuff like that would be cool, I think.

 

But yeah overall I'm personally pretty positive about the series' direction, but that doesn't mean I don't have my concerns. I have some hope, but ... we'll see, I guess.

Edited August 13, 2013 by ElementofChaos

[Kuzu]

So they should keep trying it over and over till they succeed completely. Ok, i understand your point, but how many more times am i gonna have to deal with lackluster attempts? They never achieved that goal, what makes people think they can eventually do it?

 

In my opinion they had enough tries at it to make it obvious that they can't do it.

 

Because nobody thought they could ever make a good game after 06, and yet the last three games have all been critically acclaimed in some way. So yes, I do believe they can do it if they can make something good after some as bad as 06. This defeatist attitude is really starting to annoy me, its like nobody wants to push the bar and just wanna remain complacent out of fear of failure.

[ArtFenix]

Because nobody thought they could ever make a good game after 06, and yet the last three games have all been critically acclaimed in some way. So yes, I do believe they can do it if they can make something good after some as bad as 06. This defeatist attitude is really starting to annoy me, its like nobody wants to push the bar and just wanna remain complacent out of fear of failure.

In fact, they can do ANYTHING, even make a great story and alternate characters with alternate playstyle. But it requires something: money, will and effort. SEGA or SonicTeam/Iizuka/whatever else is in charge don't want to do that. What for if playing it safe brings nice reviews about how Sonic is "back to his roots" for the 10000*****s time and how he (and the levels and the badniks) look exacly like in "good old genesis days"?

[Soniman]

But you're going to tell me that because they messed up a a  few times that they should just never try again and forgo any attempt at world building in a favor of just an arcade style of play that stopped being relevant in 1999?

 

 

By arcade style of play I assume you mean the "level to level" structure that Sonic games have been doing recentley. If that is the case what in the world are you saying? That platformers or games in general don't do this kind of thing anymore? Because they do, it's like...a staple of the platforming genre.

[Kuzu]

By arcade style of play I assume you mean the "level to level" structure that Sonic games have been doing recentley. If that is the case what in the world are you saying? That platformers or games in general don't do this kind of thing anymore? Because they do, it's like...a staple of the platforming genre.

 

Nepenthe pointed this out on the last page, but there's no context to the levels anymore as in there's no sense of progression from stage to stage, like you're heading towards some type of goal. And when I say goal, I mean anything from plot related stuff to interacting with something in the level.

 

Even Sonic 3 & Knuckles got this down; there's a transition between every level, and stuff happens in the levels to change the layout. You got Eggman bombing Angel Island, the Death Egg taking off in Launch Base, and generally Knuckles` dickery. Those don't happen anymore, you're just given levels to play and that's it. If you like that type of stuff cool, I'm just saying there's no reason you can't make something more out of it instead of just simply going with what works.

[Celestia]

@Soniman

Yes, but consider the fact that Sonic was originally conceived as being unique compared to Mario other platformers. I mean, say what you will about the boost games, but it was unique, and Lost World, despite the Mario comparisons is feeling pretty darn Sonic to me.

 

Granted I don't mind the more "level to level" thing, but I always liked how 3&K (as silly as some of the transitions were), Adventure, and Unleashed handled it.

 

(On that note, I think Adventure handled it the best, if only because the context each new level was given was more interesting and based on whatever twist the story took, whereas Unleashed you basically just travelled from continent to continent based on whatever information Pickle or Tails gave to you, but I digress. XP)

Edited August 13, 2013 by ElementofChaos

[Soniman]

In level transitions were there because they couldn't outright do cutscenes which later games did. I mean, you got level transitions for S3K bt you don't actually know WHY Sonic went to Marble Garden or Carnival Night, you just know how he got there. I mean, with games like Colors get reasoning like "we gotta shut down the generator and free the area" or Unleashed's "get to the Gaia Temple" which justified Sonic going from one level to the next.

 

I assume people want something more like SA1 where each reason to go to a level was unique in it's own way (Emerald Beach - Save Tails, Casinopolis - Get Chaos Emerald, Red Mountain - Chase Egg Carrier, etc)

Edited August 13, 2013 by Soniman

[Celestia]

I assume people want something more like SA1 where each reason to go to a level was unique in it's own way (Emerald Beach - Save Tails, Casinopolis - Get Chaos Emerald, Red Mountain - Chase Egg Carrier, etc)

Well yeah, pretty much.

 

The boost trilogy basically recycled the same idea (Gaia temples -> Generators -> restoring each Stage (okay that last one is a bit of a stretch)). Granted, that alone doesn't stop the story from being interesting if you added stuff in between that formula, but the unique objectives for each stage made it...less predictable, I suppose? You had no idea where the story would turn, since the Chaos Emeralds Sonic and friends were searching for could have been anywhere and they were also racing Eggman to them.

[Kuzu]

In level transitions were there because they couldn't outright do cutscenes which later games did. I mean, you got level transitions for S3K bt you don't actually know WHY Sonic went to Marble Garden or Carnival Night, you just know how he got there. I mean, with games like Colors get reasoning like "we gotta shut down the generator and free the area" or Unleashed's "get to the Gaia Temple" which justified Sonic going from one level to the next.

 

In Sonic 3 & Knuckles, the entire plot takes place on Angel Island, and is about getting the Chaos Emeralds before Eggman to power his Death Egg as well dodging Knuckles` attempts at slowing you down. So yes, there was a reason why Sonic was going through every level in that game.

 

SA1 also did it better: We got tornado in Windy Valley, Sonic climbing Red Mountain to get Amy, and him and Tails going through the Sky Deck to get to Eggman. Every level has a justification for being there. 

 

The reason I don't get this from the current games is because there are barely any attempts at developing a plot, so its kind of a moot point anyway.

[Diogenes]

In Sonic 3 & Knuckles, the entire plot takes place on Angel Island, and is about getting the Chaos Emeralds before Eggman to power his Death Egg as well dodging Knuckles` attempts at slowing you down. So yes, there was a reason why Sonic was going through every level in that game.

There's really no particular reason for most levels, though, besides the characters just stumbling into them. Why Marble Garden? Random waterspout dropped them there. Why Carnival Night? That's just where they landed after the midair boss fight. Why Ice Cap? Random cannon trip. Why Sandopolis? That's just where they fell.

[ArtFenix]

There's really no particular reason for most levels, though, besides the characters just stumbling into them. Why Marble Garden? Random waterspout dropped them there. Why Carnival Night? That's just where they landed after the midair boss fight. Why Ice Cap? Random cannon trip. Why Sandopolis? That's just where they fell.

Still much better than no connection at all.

[Nepenthe]

Honestly i don't understand the demand for a "living and breathing world where we familiarize with the populace". Sonic has never been about that kind of stuff.

 

While plenty of games don't have a hub in which to interact with any populous, to suggest that Sonic games have never been about making a convincing world that you get lost in is kind of absurd. Whether it's the use of branching level design and use of continuous narrative like in the classics, real world themes and hub worlds like in Unleashed, or just the use of plain old context to give stages all across the series some identity and creativity, the Sonic series isn't one that I imagine to be completely absent or lacking in the idea that we're running through a world that absorbs you in. I mean, this isn't Tetris.

[NocturnalTwilight]

I hope I'm on the same boat with all this, but I like and somewhat dislike how things are going right now, and hopefully I can explain why.

 

First off, I like the more "kid-friendly" and "cartoony" feel to the series, not saying it's completely that way, but it feels like it for the most part. I wouldn't mind seeing a more serious title in the horizon, and when I say serious, I don't by any means mean more dark or anything like that, just a little more serious that it is now. I have nothing against how it is now, just saying a more serious title every now and then would be nice.

 

Second, I can see what Sonic Team is trying to do with making the main focus around the stories Sonic and Tails, but I think it'd be cool to have a few more characters be involved. Especially Knuckles, I wouldn't mind having him in the main picture, to have Team Sonic reunited once again, it just doesn't feel like Knuckles is as important to the story anymore, like it used to be, which s sad because he's one of my favorite Characters. Lots of people love Shadow, so bringing him in a little wouldn't mind either.

 

I love the gameplay, the Unleashed Formula was starting to get pretty old, so I'm really excited to see how Lost World is going to do, hopefully something more like the Adventure days, that'd be pretty great.

 

Not sure how I'm feeling about the Wisps yet, I know the head of Sonic Team said they got really good responses from the fans about them, so I'm up for it if they know what they're doing. 

 

I don't want to sound like a lazy ass, but I like how recently players have pretty much been given the Chaos Emeralds, I'm awful at Special Stages and feel relieved when I know I don't have to play them to get the Emeralds. Like (again) in the Adventure games, you were given the Chaos Emeralds as you progressed through the story and it led to an epic ending, things like that I enjoy, rage quitting trying to beat Special Stages I could do much without.

 

 

Pretty much all of these things, just small improvement notes, but also praise for how well Sonic Team has been doing and recovering since the tragic '06 incident.

[Zavok the SpinningSilver]

Ah, the moment of truth. Time to place my mark on this series direction!

 

...and it seems so many people have said what I wanted to say much better than I could. Welp. I'll be brief then with what I have to say.

 

Story

 

My absolute biggest gripe with what I see so far is the story of the recent games. I was happy with the stuff that I saw in Unleashed and the Black Knight. They were entertaining. The tone that they showed were spectacular and most in line with what I wanted from a Sonic title. They knew when to be funny and when to be serious. When they tried to be funny, it wasn't forced and genuinely brought a smile to my face. When shit hit the fan, I knew that  something was gonna go down. If, say something like Mario were a saturday morning cartoon, Sonic was a Pixar movie.

 

With this current tone, at most it's like an average cartoon I'd see on TV - while it can stoop down to near classic Mario levels of non - existence. I'm honestly surprised at how dissapointing the newer stories are to me, despite the concepts behind many of them are great. A giant amusemment park in space that hides the fact that its locations are enslaved planets. Cute little aliens that each have their own personalities. Having to restore the flow of time on your birthday. Meeting your past self in the process. There's a wealth of untapped potential here that stays untapped. Plot points aren't explored very deeply, or completely forgotten. There are many moments where a joke is told when it doesn't need to be. It feels like it's trying too hard to be a bad cartoon, and I feel bad for having to make comparisons like this, as there are many cartoons that are fantastically written. This doesn't sit well with me at all. The story concepts are good, but I wish for better execution. As in motive, character development, a nice blend of visual gags, snark and subtle humor... just more like the Storybook series and Unleashed in general.

 

Characters

 

It's a subtrope of how I feel towards the stories. The world of Sonic the Hedgehog contains more than Sonic, Tails, Eggman and his hench bots. To focus on them for a bit though, (the irony, it kills me) I have a mixed bag. For the most part, I like it in concept. Sonic and Tails are acting like best friends on an adventure. Eggman has to deal with a sarcastic butler and a loyal buffoon. My only gripe in this area is that Sonic isn't written with as much wit or style that the Storybook Series or Unleashed would have. Yes, I get the fact that the writers are playing up Sonic's more hammy or dorky tendancies. But his character was supposed to be mostly cool, not the other way around.

 

Back to the other characters. There are quite a lot of them, but that's the beauty of it: they help make up the world Sonic inhabits. For example, Knuckles may be guardian of the Master Emerald, but he's also the third member of Team Sonic. It's called a triple threat for a reason. What of Amy's antics? Vanilla and Cream looking from a distance in the safety of their home? The agents of GUN sticking their noses in every once and a while? The Chaotix doing something? Anything that supports meaningful character interaction between these...well....characters is fine by me. There should be  a balance to this, as in people are placed in when necessary, not just as an excuse to get one character in. However, given the concepts that approach this series, it shouldn't be too hard for these characters to show up and do something interesting, right?

 

I'll post my thoughts on atmosphere and gameplay later as I feel quite tired. But to summarize, I'm not too satisfied at the moment. So much untapped potential that unfortunately stays untapped.