Are you satisfied with the direction of the series; if not what would you change?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

In my opinion they had enough tries at it to make it obvious that they can't do it.

Well here's an idea: why not try and find someone who can and help them?

What you're basically saying is the equivalent of failing a few tests and not bothering to find a tutor to help you do better. Is it any wonder why people don't get shit done when they have such a defeatist attitude of giving up instead of looking for other options to help them?

Edited August 14, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Neon The Hedgehog]

I agree with everyone that it would be nice to get to play as characters other than Sonic. Don't get me wrong, I love the blue blur. But there are things the other characters can do that Sonic can't. Like gliding through the air as Knuckles, or hitting things with Amy Rose's big hammer (Where did she get that thing anyway ? I wouldn't want to get on her bad side...). It seems that ever since Sonic 06 Sega has been hesitant to use the other characters in game play other than for their sports or race car games. Just because 06 was disliked by so many fans, doesn't mean that Sega should just throw away the other character gameplay. I heard that you will be able to play as knuckles in Sonic lost worlds, which I hope is true.

[ArtFenix]

I heard that you will be able to play as knuckles in Sonic lost worlds, which I hope is true.

It's not.

[Tani Coyote]

I am satisfied. The brand is rebuilding itself after a tarnished reputation that spans anywhere from 1998-2009 depending on who you ask; that's nearly half its lifespan. While the lightweight story is something lamentable, I can understand they are essentially soft-rebooting the franchise, making it more accessible to a younger generation while also trying to draw in those who were turned off by the mixed reception titles that spanned so much of the last decade.

With Iizuka's remarks, I'm confident anything we idealise about the Adventure or Classic eras will return in time. He knows what he's doing, and I'm very optimistic about the future. Change takes time, but patience is a virtue.

[ArtFenix]

With Iizuka's remarks, I'm confident anything we idealise about the Adventure or Classic eras will return in time. He knows what he's doing, and I'm very optimistic about the future. Change takes time, but patience is a virtue.

Sorry, I can't agree with this. It's been 7 years since 06 and aside from the gameplay all other things are only getting worse. It sure takes time but not THAT much and by now they should've already made a couple of characters playable, improved on storytelling aspects etc. They didn't.

[Xenos]

Okay, time to get something off my chest for a bit....

 

I'm getting sort of sick of the mentality that games, just because it's a new time and age, have to be something more than just a video game. It's great, perfectly fine even if you expect more out of your games. But I can't ever agree with this train of thought that games need an expansive story, or things need connections to every single little thing. I'm not asking why Sonic needs to have these things, I'm not even asking if he should. I'm asking who made these rules and regulations that a video game needs to try and be something more than just a video game? Why are you telling the creators of the game your expectations about their video game and not letting them do it in the way they want to with their artistic integrity?

 

The Sonic series has already been struggling to find it's identity for some time now, and the moment it even seems like we're getting back a little of what '06 took, people expect Sonic to be more, that's fine. But when I see games like Unleashed that has had the best world building in the series, I also see a game that's so divisive and polarizing those aspects of it are largely pointless if the actual game, that I'm sitting there to play isn't giving me the same level of quality.

 

A game should focus itself in every aspect, but if the gameplay is a big enough step down, everything else goes to crumble. Then I ask you, are you really sure people have a "defeatist" mentality about the Sonic series and it's world building and story and think that it's something Sonic Team just aren't good at? They are saying it from plain observation of their own, how are you going to accuse them of being defeatist?

 

Then I ask you, does every game needs to follow these "expectations" of having expansive story, does every game need connections for everything to be good, or even great? Sure, you could say it would make that specific game better. But you can also say it wouldn't help the game at all, or be worse. Which has happened before, considering the oddities in Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Shadow The Hedgehog, and arguably some other games in the series as well.

 

Can't a Video Game be a Video Game? Can't it just be itself without having to be tied down by what we have to always expect? I find the best games are the ones that completely ignore expectations and go out of it's way to find it's own niche, and be better than I expected in the first place.

 

Just my thoughts on this...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Okay, time to get something off my chest for a bit....

 

I'm getting sort of sick of the mentality that games, just because it's a new time and age, have to be something more than just a video game. It's great, perfectly fine even if you expect more out of your games. But I can't ever agree with this train of thought that games need an expansive story, or things need connections to every single little thing. I'm not asking why Sonic needs to have these things, I'm not even asking if he should. I'm asking who made these rules and regulations that a video game needs to try and be something more than just a video game? Why are you telling the creators of the game your expectations about their video game and not letting them do it in the way they want to with their artistic integrity?

 

The Sonic series has already been struggling to find it's identity for some time now, and the moment it even seems like we're getting back a little of what '06 took, people expect Sonic to be more, that's fine. But when I see games like Unleashed that has had the best world building in the series, I also see a game that's so divisive and polarizing those aspects of it are largely pointless if the actual game, that I'm sitting there to play isn't giving me the same level of quality.

 

A game should focus itself in every aspect, but if the gameplay is a big enough step down, everything else goes to crumble. Then I ask you, are you really sure people have a "defeatist" mentality about the Sonic series and it's world building and story and think that it's something Sonic Team just aren't good at? They are saying it from plain observation of their own, how are you going to accuse them of being defeatist?

 

Then I ask you, does every game needs to follow these "expectations" of having expansive story, does every game need connections for everything to be good, or even great? Sure, you could say it would make that specific game better. But you can also say it wouldn't help the game at all, or be worse. Which has happened before, considering the oddities in Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Shadow The Hedgehog, and arguably some other games in the series as well.

 

Can't a Video Game be a Video Game? Can't it just be itself without having to be tied down by what we have to always expect? I find the best games are the ones that completely ignore expectations and go out of it's way to find it's own niche, and be better than I expected in the first place.

 

Just my thoughts on this...

Dude, for one, everyone here knows full and well that gameplay takes priority over everything else in a game to the point that if it fails, then everything else falls with it. We've known that since ShTH and Sonic 06 when we constantly complain about the poor gameplay ideas of the former and the straight up glitchfest that consisted of the latter.

 

But when the attitude after these games is essentially "don't try, it's no use" that's pretty much defeatist in itself, especially when the elements we're wanting have been done with some success and there are other options out there that we could try to do better next time. Essentially giving up after flunking the first few times instead of learning what went wrong and refining from there. With that attitude of we probably wouldn't even have the fucking lightbulb and all these fancy gadgets to even enjoy playing these games in the first place. You wanna talk about defying expectations, let's talk about that expectation where it took someone 10,000 tries until it finally worked how they wanted.

 

A video came can be a just video game, and you are more than welcome to just play it for just the game alone. But I'd rather have it be more than just a game simply because I can have more fun enjoying it as it entertains me, enjoying not just the game first and foremost, but the rest of the content that goes along with it such as the scenery, the characters, and the events that, when done well, gives me far more motivation to play and keep playing it to find out more in the game than just playing it to beat it. Kinda the reason why some make these expectactions because they see something could make the game far more valuable to play as a game. It's perfectly find for a game to ignore expectations, but that doesn't mean people should stop having them.

Sorry, I can't agree with this. It's been 7 years since 06 and aside from the gameplay all other things are only getting worse. It sure takes time but not THAT much and by now they should've already made a couple of characters playable, improved on storytelling aspects etc. They didn't.

I've waited 5 years for this series reputation to recover with Colors, an extra year to cement that recovery with Generations, and an extra two years for them to make a new game that I'm equally going to have to wait to buy a Wii-U to play. During that time, I've spent several years of hell on these forums before things started getting cleaned up around here to a much more tolerable atmosphere.

 

I think I can be patient enough to wait for them to take risks again and improve more on what they failed to do before.

Edited August 14, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[ArtFenix]

I've waited 5 years for this series reputation to recover with Colors, an extra year to cement that recovery with Generations, and an extra two years for them to make a new game that I'm equally going to have to wait to buy a Wii-U to play. During that time, I've spent several years of hell on these forums before things started getting cleaned up around here to a much more tolerable atmosphere.

 

I think I can be patient enough to wait for them to take risks again and improve more on what they failed to do before.

It's not like I have any other choice besides quite being a Sonic fan (but still loving the previous games). I don't think I can do that now, but SLW sure is NOT tha game that I would love (I did like every other game before more or less), so I suppose I'll have to wait along with you for their next attempt if there is going to be one.

Edited August 14, 2013 by ArtFenix

[Mr Loopone]

For the most part, I am satisfied with the current direction even though I don't know much about Sonic Lost World despite looking promising until the game comes out so I can't really judge that completely. I like that Sega brought back the badniks that gives it more flavour than the Egg Pawns (even then in Sonic Colours, the Egg Pawns try to have some personality like a Chef and a Samurai), brought back the little animals like the Flickies, bringing slightly more of a cartoon design to the characters and that Sonic Team are trying to make a game that is easy to play (even though Sonic Colours controls bothered me until I plugged in my old Gamecube controller) but also in terms of level design and the gameplay mechanics plus they are improving in terms of technical stuff as well. Yes, I know Sonic 4 could be better but mostly that is on a technical and budget level.

 

The current direction or at least from Sonic Unleashed/Colours/Generations has brought some people back into the Sonic games since some were disappointed by the handling of the previous games and were put off from the series. Due to the diverse fanbase, not every Sonic game is going to liked by everyone since people have different ideas and like different things.

 

There are a few niggling things though that I would change, more like tiny improvements to make them better, not that they are 100% needed but just nice to have since Sonic games generally change direction after every game since Sonic Adventure. One thing is a more badnik variety, as in new badniks for Sonic to defeat that are both eye catching but also fun to smash without having a gimmicky feeling or too out of place. As much as I like MotoBug and Buzz Bomber since I'm happy that they are returned, would love to see Sonic Team for trying new designs and explore their creativity.

 

Another thing is that while liking the Sonic only gameplay, there doesn't seem as much interaction between the characters and the world. Apart from cutscenes, I don't see much of Tails and I haven't seen Knuckles at all apart from cameos. It would be interesting to see Tails be behind Sonic like some games however the camera would have to be designed away to prevent making it hard to see Sonic in the 3D games with him helping out over large pits that are too much for Sonic to jump over or even the badniks interacting with the scenery to make the world more alive. Little actions like Sonic doing something during an idle pose or Eggman stomping his feet and entering his machines during the game can make something small into something that seems to have attention to detail.

 

They should at least try to bring at least another playable character or two but have to play differently than Sonic but not too different but that is more of an optional choice. As in that you can play as Sonic or optionally choose Tails/Knuckles as well sort of like how the Sonic CD and the Sonic 1 Taxman ports handle it.

 

Despite that I enjoyed Sonic Colours and Sonic Generations very much, it was also hard to go back to the games when they are done so I feel that something new should happen from a different mode after the game is complete or DLC of new stages to go back and play more even if they are smaller than the main stages.

[Kuzu]

Okay, time to get something off my chest for a bit....

 

I'm getting sort of sick of the mentality that games, just because it's a new time and age, have to be something more than just a video game. It's great, perfectly fine even if you expect more out of your games. But I can't ever agree with this train of thought that games need an expansive story, or things need connections to every single little thing. I'm not asking why Sonic needs to have these things, I'm not even asking if he should. I'm asking who made these rules and regulations that a video game needs to try and be something more than just a video game? Why are you telling the creators of the game your expectations about their video game and not letting them do it in the way they want to with their artistic integrity?

 

The Sonic series has already been struggling to find it's identity for some time now, and the moment it even seems like we're getting back a little of what '06 took, people expect Sonic to be more, that's fine. But when I see games like Unleashed that has had the best world building in the series, I also see a game that's so divisive and polarizing those aspects of it are largely pointless if the actual game, that I'm sitting there to play isn't giving me the same level of quality.

 

A game should focus itself in every aspect, but if the gameplay is a big enough step down, everything else goes to crumble. Then I ask you, are you really sure people have a "defeatist" mentality about the Sonic series and it's world building and story and think that it's something Sonic Team just aren't good at? They are saying it from plain observation of their own, how are you going to accuse them of being defeatist?

 

Then I ask you, does every game needs to follow these "expectations" of having expansive story, does every game need connections for everything to be good, or even great? Sure, you could say it would make that specific game better. But you can also say it wouldn't help the game at all, or be worse. Which has happened before, considering the oddities in Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Shadow The Hedgehog, and arguably some other games in the series as well.

 

Can't a Video Game be a Video Game? Can't it just be itself without having to be tied down by what we have to always expect? I find the best games are the ones that completely ignore expectations and go out of it's way to find it's own niche, and be better than I expected in the first place.

 

Just my thoughts on this...

 

Nobody wants games to stop being games, we wouldn't even be playing these games if that was the case.

 

 

The reason we have these expectations is because people find the current games boring, and not worth playing for more than a few hours. I don't feel we're wrong because we, the consumers, do not feel the series is living up to its potential, we're not getting our money's worth, and that this new direction is actively being encouraged, less because its beneficial for the series, and more because its better than what came before. When you fail a test and then retake it and get a C, do you just throw in the towel and say "Good enough" or do you keep trying until you get that A, its the same principle here. 

 

What I don't understand is why people are treating gameplay and features like plot as mutually exclusive, as if it is impossible that one cannot exist without the other. Where this mentality came from I don't know, but its bollocks to me. Where does it say that other parts of a game don't matter? because I don't remember that ever being a rule video games abide by ever, especially since some of my favorite games offer more than just simply gameplay, but apparently that doesn't apply to Sonic. No, its either gameplay or bust and if the gameplay is bad that means the other parts are suddenly insignificant. Does good music suddenly sound terrible because the gameplay isn't good? Do graphics suddenly get shitty because the gameplay isn't good?

 

Nobody wants Sonic Team to be great at everything, we acknowledge that they're going to fuck up from time to time, but now they're not even trying so excuse us for being a little upset that features that we enjoyed from the series are suddenly being ignored because the creators are afraid of taking risks, and coming up with flimsy excuses for doing so.

 

 

Do games need to follow our every expectation? No, that's impossible, but they should at least try to push the bar instead of just settling for good and leaving it at that. That shit leads to stagnation and monotony, and its not something I'm going to pay for to follow. 

 

I acknowledge that there are people who like the current direction of games, but you in turn should acknowledge that there are people who don't like it, and why they don't.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[Xenos]

Dude, for one, everyone here knows full and well that gameplay takes priority over everything else in a game to the point that if it fails, then everything else falls with it. We've known that since ShTH and Sonic 06 when we constantly complain about the poor gameplay ideas of the former and the straight up glitchfest that consisted of the latter.

 

But when the attitude after these games is essentially "don't try, it's no use" that's pretty much defeatist in itself, especially when the elements we're wanting have been done with some success and there are other options out there that we could try to do better next time. Essentially giving up after flunking the first few times instead of learning what went wrong and refining from there. With that attitude of we probably wouldn't even have the fucking lightbulb and all these fancy gadgets to even enjoy playing these games in the first place. You wanna talk about defying expectations, let's talk about that expectation where it took someone 10,000 tries until it finally worked how they wanted.

 

A video came can be a just video game, and you are more than welcome to just play it for just the game alone. But I'd rather have it be more than just a game simply because I can have more fun enjoying it as it entertains me, enjoying not just the game first and foremost, but the rest of the content that goes along with it such as the scenery, the characters, and the events that, when done well, gives me far more motivation to play and keep playing it to find out more in the game than just playing it to beat it. Kinda the reason why some make these expectactions because they see something could make the game far more valuable to play as a game. It's perfectly find for a game to ignore expectations, but that doesn't mean people should stop having them.

 

I don't see it as "don't try, it's no use" as much as I do "from my viewpoint, they should focus more on other things" and I can definitely see where they should focus on other things. Why does it have to be outright giving up? I see it as they are setting those things aside to work on later so they can focus on the thing that needs attention most, Lost World looks like a promising start with that. They learned from the Boost Era, so now they're going to take the base of that, and make it something new. And hey, it looks like it has a decent story itself. If you think they'll get it by trying enough, sure, but how many more tries do we need here? I'm not sure if Sonic Lost World will deliver, but I suppose it's a start here.

 

I'm not saying a game shouldn't and can't have that. I'm saying games don't need that in droves to give me that feeling of motivation. A game that comes to mind is Bit.Trip Runner 2. A game that is purely level-to-level with minimum story, yet the visuals alone and it's musical style and the way it progresses through levels is all it needs for it to feel more immersive than a Sonic game has ever been to me.

 

 

Nobody wants games to stop being games, we wouldn't even be playing these games if that was the case.

 

 

The reason we have these expectations is because people find the current games boring, and not worth playing for more than a few hours. I don't feel we're wrong because we, the consumers, do not feel the series is living up to its potential, we're not getting our money's worth, and that this new direction is actively being encouraged, less because its beneficial for the series, and more because its better than what came before. When you fail a test and then retake it and get a C, do you just throw in the towel and say "Good enough" or do you keep trying until you get that A, its the same principle here. 

 

What I don't understand is why people are treating gameplay and features like plot as mutually exclusive, as if it is impossible that one cannot exist without the other. Where this mentality came from I don't know, but its bollocks to me. Where does it say that other parts of a game don't matter? because I don't remember that ever being a rule video games abide by ever, especially since some of my favorite games offer more than just simply gameplay, but apparently that doesn't apply to Sonic. No, its either gameplay or bust and if the gameplay is bad that means the other parts are suddenly insignificant. Does good music suddenly sound terrible because the gameplay isn't good? Do graphics suddenly get shitty because the gameplay isn't good?

 

Nobody wants Sonic Team to be great at everything, we acknowledge that they're going to fuck up from time to time, but now they're not even trying so excuse us for being a little upset that features that we enjoyed from the series are suddenly being ignored because the creators are afraid of taking risks, and coming up with flimsy excuses for doing so.

 

 

Do games need to follow our every expectation? No, that's impossible, but they should at least try to push the bar instead of just settling for good and leaving it at that. That shit leads to stagnation and monotony, and its not something I'm going to pay for to follow. 

 

I acknowledge that there are people who like the current direction of games, but you in turn should acknowledge that there are people who don't like it, and why they don't.

 

 

Hang on a second here, man.

 

This new direction isn't beneficial for the series...yet it's better than what came before? Isn't that a benefit? It's improving itself, moving away from the bad old stuff and trying new things and spreading into a different direction. And again, Lost World already looks to be improving itself even more than that. So I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Sonic Team are not trying in the slightest to improve. They've been doing nothing but that for years. I find it hilariously ironic you say they "aren't trying" and aren't "taking risks" when we have a brand new game with a completely different gameplay style, graphical style, and a seemingly more extensive plot right before our eyes coming out in October.

 

I never said that these things don't matter, but on the grand scale, the whole package, it doesn't make sense at all to assume that the game is overall better at being a game if the music or visuals are good but the gameplay overall fails. They could be strong points for that game, but if I don't have fun playing, then how do they add up too much in the big picture?

 

You say monotony and stagnation, and it looks like you're continuously ignoring Sonic Lost World. I'm sorry, but that's like the biggest elephant in the room here, you have a game pushing boundaries and doing new things and you're largely ignoring it yourself. If you don't like it, and I see why, then I also need to understand how when a game is doing exactly what you're describing, it's being ignored in this conversation.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Xenos

[Nepenthe]

They've been "setting things aside" to "focus on the things that need the most attention" for years. And in those years, they found a gameplay style that most people were happy with and was allowing the games to achieve critical acclaim. Then after that, they threw it out entirely for something else, which they also admitted they don't know if they'll continue or not. How do you come to a consensus on what the direction should be with this kind of style roulette every few years? How do you get to step two on this kind of theoretical nonsense? What kind of business operates on the idea of promises of perfection and "getting the gameplay down pat?" That is so ill-defined to the point of being untenable and unprofessional. Professionals don't say "when we feel it's right." They set fucking dates, because that means results.

 

We're tired of hearing this lame excuse and being told to wait. We've waited long enough. The game after Generations should've been the one to at least start introducing some of the things people are asking for back in. That was pretty much the peak of this Sonic-only, minimal-narrative, characters-set-aside focus in terms of quality and popularity. And they said "Fuck it" and are now taking another gamble on another gameplay style that we don't know anything about- a total shot in the dark- one they're going to have to perfect, and then what? We do this song-and-dance all over again when they start experimenting with first-person Sonic gameplay?

 

And the really annoying thing about it all is that people who don't give a shit about other characters being around and world-building or whatever the fuck else other people want, are not inherently going to be left out when, if ever, they start introducing these ideas back in. You can have a good game with the things people are now asking for. The classics are all the proof you need. These tired arguments about these things being unnecessary or not as important, of having to wait until Hell freezes over, or worse, that overused false dichotomy of rather having a good gameplay with shit story versus the opposite, are the cherry on top of this shit sundae.

[Kuzu]

Hang on a second here, man.

 

This new direction isn't beneficial for the series...yet it's better than what came before? Isn't that a benefit? It's improving itself, moving away from the bad old stuff and trying new things and spreading into a different direction. And again, Lost World already looks to be improving itself even more than that. So I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Sonic Team are not trying in the slightest to improve. They've been doing nothing but that for years. I find it hilariously ironic you say they "aren't trying" and aren't "taking risks" when we have a brand new game with a completely different gameplay style, graphical style, and a seemingly more extensive plot right before our eyes coming out in October.

 

I never said that these things don't matter, but on the grand scale, the whole package, it doesn't make sense at all to assume that the game is overall better at being a game if the music or visuals are good but the gameplay overall fails. They could be strong points for that game, but if I don't have fun playing, then how do they add up too much in the big picture?

 

You say monotony and stagnation, and it looks like you're continuously ignoring Sonic Lost World. I'm sorry, but that's like the biggest elephant in the room here, you have a game pushing boundaries and doing new things and you're largely ignoring it yourself. If you don't like it, and I see why, then I also need to understand how when a game is doing exactly what you're describing, it's being ignored in this conversation.

 

You're talking about a game that isn't out for another two months, and we have no idea how its going to play out until we do. I don't care how good it looks I care about how good it is and nobody knows for sure at the moment, so I really wouldn't jump the gun and assume that Lost World is just suddenly going to prove me wrong(Although I hope it does). 

 

Second, I never said the new direction isn't beneficial but rather that its assumed to be beneficial for the reasons I stated. Yes it is a benefit, but then no fucking shit, Of course we expect games better than before because the games from before were ass but I also expect them to go further and not just settle for a good scores and actually excel.

 

 

Lastly, I seriously can't understand how you can say that nothing but gameplay can make a game better, are you kidding me? If that's the case then why bother with graphics? Why bother with music? They don't help the game play better so according to your logic they don't matter and Sonic Team shouldn't bother with them, but oh if it plays well then its automatically good. 

[Your Vest Friend]

Suddenly another Vector avatar with another unpopular opinion. Although mine is very much Chaotix-focused. 

 

Talking about the Chaotix not getting screen time in the Sola Sonica era is...quite frankly a point I really can't see. The last main game they were in prior to Generations was Shadow the Hedgehog, and the last main game they were fully playable in was Sonic Heroes. Outside of that prior to the solo era, their main contributions for any sort of game with a story was Sonic Rivals 2, for like one of their characters. And I'd it call it a stretch to say that their characters developed in those games either. If anything, Sola Sonica has been beneficial for them. 

 

Discuss the lack of playability and development with the other characters all you want, and I'd probably agree for a lot of it. I just don't think the Chaotix are really good representatives of it. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't see it as "don't try, it's no use" as much as I do "from my viewpoint, they should focus more on other things" and I can definitely see where they should focus on other things. Why does it have to be outright giving up? I see it as they are setting those things aside to work on later so they can focus on the thing that needs attention most, Lost World looks like a promising start with that. They learned from the Boost Era, so now they're going to take the base of that, and make it something new. And hey, it looks like it has a decent story itself. If you think they'll get it by trying enough, sure, but how many more tries do we need here? I'm not sure if Sonic Lost World will deliver, but I suppose it's a start here.

 

I'm not saying a game shouldn't and can't have that. I'm saying games don't need that in droves to give me that feeling of motivation. A game that comes to mind is Bit.Trip Runner 2. A game that is purely level-to-level with minimum story, yet the visuals alone and it's musical style and the way it progresses through levels is all it needs for it to feel more immersive than a Sonic game has ever been to me.

Well congradulations: I'm not you, and I don't think minimal story that's purely level to level is the kind of immersion that I want out of a Sonic game that has gone above and beyond that with successes in the SA1 and 2 despite it's fumbles with ShTH and Sonic 06. I want to be entertained and motivated far more than what minimalism offers. And parading about minimum story games as an example for Sonic is exactly the kind of giving up I'm talking about, if not sheer regression at worse. Exactly the kind of parading around people do when they want to follow the Classics as the very same example of what the series should do, never bothering to go beyond what the Classics have done, but just minimalize it and say that that's how you do more. Sorry, by I'm not one who believes in addition by subtraction.

 

They've been "focusing on other things" for several years, while setting aside everything else. How long do people have to wait until they feel ready to do the other things? Because this focusing on other things has led to them throwing away major elements from the Boost Era in favor of an all new direction, with the only remnant remaining being the Wisps. So how long are you going to parade that they should focus on other things when they've been doing that game after game after game? What in the world would you be missing if they went above and beyond and delivered with stellar results? How would it not help the game at all or make things worse if these elements would be widely enjoyed when the problems are dealt with? Because that's what these people with expectations are wanting; they don't want average, and they don't want a poor job, and should they do a poor job the people who asked for these things are usually among the first people criticizing them for falling short of those expectations.

 

I say, like I said before, that if they're having trouble trying to find out how to make these things work after not doing well a number of times, they should find someone who can identify the problems they had and figure out how to deal with them in order to make them work. Essentially finding a tutor to help you out after failing a few of your examples, so that you can make an A on your next exam and do stellar rather than reaching a C and live with merely doing a passing job of it.

Edited August 15, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Neon The Hedgehog]

 I dont know if anyone else feels this way, but I'm kind of bored with all of these recreations of the emerald hill zone. Sure it made sense in Sonic Generations, which was like a history book of Sonic gaming history. But was it really necessary to have it in Sonic 4 and Lost worlds? Enough is enough already! I get that sega is trying to give Sonic that good old classic feel, but that doesn't mean that every game needs a green hill zone remake. Or that the classic games were defined only by the green hill zone. Theres a lot of other good classic levels for them to remake if they absolutely must. But to me, I always have the most fun in new areas that they create.

[Xenos]

They've been "setting things aside" to "focus on the things that need the most attention" for years. And in those years, they found a gameplay style that most people were happy with and was allowing the games to achieve critical acclaim. Then after that, they threw it out entirely for something else, which they also admitted they don't know if they'll continue or not. How do you come to a consensus on what the direction should be with this kind of style roulette every few years? How do you get to step two on this kind of theoretical nonsense? What kind of business operates on the idea of promises of perfection and "getting the gameplay down pat?" That is so ill-defined to the point of being untenable and unprofessional. Professionals don't say "when we feel it's right." They set fucking dates, because that means results.

 

We're tired of hearing this lame excuse and being told to wait. We've waited long enough. The game after Generations should've been the one to at least start introducing some of the things people are asking for back in. That was pretty much the peak of this Sonic-only, minimal-narrative, characters-set-aside focus in terms of quality and popularity. And they said "Fuck it" and are now taking another gamble on another gameplay style that we don't know anything about- a total shot in the dark- one they're going to have to perfect, and then what? We do this song-and-dance all over again when they start experimenting with first-person Sonic gameplay?

 

And the really annoying thing about it all is that people who don't give a shit about other characters being around and world-building or whatever the fuck else other people want, are not inherently going to be left out when, if ever, they start introducing these ideas back in. You can have a good game with the things people are now asking for. The classics are all the proof you need. These tired arguments about these things being unnecessary or not as important, of having to wait until Hell freezes over, or worse, that overused false dichotomy of rather having a good gameplay with shit story versus the opposite, are the cherry on top of this shit sundae.

 

You're saying they through it out for something else because maybe they wanted to use a new style that was more flexible and gave them more freedom...? And saying that keeping it wasn't set in stone doesn't mean much when...that's completely reasonable. If they get some good feedback for it, they'll probably keep it for the next games going forward. If it isn't recieved well, they could retool it or try again, or go a different direction next time. Nothing wrong with that, it's experimenting. I know saying Lost World is pretty much defying that mentality is a premature statement, but from what I observed from one of the writers and that cutscene, it certainly seems like they're doing a lot more compared to before.

 

And half the time, sometimes when they focus on other aspects, the quality of the overall gameplay can suffer for it. I'm not saying that will be the case, but it's one of numerous possibilities, not that I really agree with that thought either.

 

You're talking about a game that isn't out for another two months, and we have no idea how its going to play out until we do. I don't care how good it looks I care about how good it is and nobody knows for sure at the moment, so I really wouldn't jump the gun and assume that Lost World is just suddenly going to prove me wrong(Although I hope it does). 

 

Second, I never said the new direction isn't beneficial but rather that its assumed to be beneficial for the reasons I stated. Yes it is a benefit, but then no fucking shit, Of course we expect games better than before because the games from before were ass but I also expect them to go further and not just settle for a good scores and actually excel.

 

 

Lastly, I seriously can't understand how you can say that nothing but gameplay can make a game better, are you kidding me? If that's the case then why bother with graphics? Why bother with music? They don't help the game play better so according to your logic they don't matter and Sonic Team shouldn't bother with them, but oh if it plays well then its automatically good. 

 

I'm not saying it's proved you wrong, I'm saying from what I've observed of the game, it's pretty much defying all of these apparent things Sonic Team is notorious for doing. Also, how the in the world are games like Colors and Generations, which are critically acclaimed, not excelling? Do you think they just stopped somewhere during development and thought "Nah this is good enough" and began spinning their wheels? What sense does that make?

 

...Can you please point to me where and when did I say gameplay is the only thing that makes a game better? Are you kidding me? What I'm trying to say is, as a complete package the game needs more than pretty visuals and good music, and if the gameplay fails at being a good part of the game, the complete package as a whole isn't completely great. Sure if the game's actual focus itself are in things like the music, or visuals or whatever, but the gameplay should at least be up to par to be fun, or interesting.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It's less saying that Gameplay is the only thing that matters and more repeating the obvious: if the gameplay fails, everything else goes with it.

 

Thing is, we know that. But we want great gameplay and everything else (story, scenes, visuals, etc) to further entertain us and make us further value that game, and not just for them to wait until they feel they've gotten right after setting everything else aside for years on end.

 

Kind of why, even to this day, people hold even the Adventure titles to a high degree even though they have a number of flaws that could be dealt with.

Edited August 15, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Nepenthe]

You're saying they through it out for something else because maybe they wanted to use a new style that was more flexible and gave them more freedom...? And saying that keeping it wasn't set in stone doesn't mean much when...that's completely reasonable. If they get some good feedback for it, they'll probably keep it for the next games going forward. If it isn't recieved well, they could retool it or try again, or go a different direction next time. Nothing wrong with that, it's experimenting. I know saying Lost World is pretty much defying that mentality is a premature statement, but from what I observed from one of the writers and that cutscene, it certainly seems like they're doing a lot more compared to before.

 

And half the time, sometimes when they focus on other aspects, the quality of the overall gameplay can suffer for it. I'm not saying that will be the case, but it's one of numerous possibilities, not that I really agree with that thought either.

 

I agree there's nothing wrong with experimentation. But it becomes a bad excuse when people keep telling me that experimentation is essentially standing in between having games that I feel are sliding by, games that are essentially being praised a lot of the time for merely doing nothing wrong, and games that could be a lot more immersive and meaningful. The reason this is a bad excuse is because Sonic Team have not shown any signs for nearly a decade that they have any idea what they want the franchise to exemplify from now on, meaning they can't possibly be working towards any specified goals. There is no guarantee that any experimentation will pay off and we'll reach this magical, mystical point in time where everything is "perfect" and thus we can start bringing in other characters and better storytelling again to add on top of it. Ultimately, this means the timetable for these things is nonexistent. It could happen the next game, or it could be never. No one knows, thus telling me to wait is useless advice. I've been waiting, now I want an actual plan. What the fuck does Sonic Team need to do to feel comfortable doing the things they used to do in the 90s?

 

Also, the games didn't suffer because Sonic Team devoted time to other elements of game design. The games suffered because Sonic Team became an incompetent developer for whatever reason. Shadow the Hedgehog doesn't deserve commending because it has one character and gameplay style at the helm. Besides, do we really feel today's Sonic Team is so utterly, overwhelmingly, unbelievably stupid- even when they're cranking out games we like, like Colors and Generations- that they can't at the very least make Tails playable without fucking everything up?

[Kuzu]

\I'm not saying it's proved you wrong, I'm saying from what I've observed of the game, it's pretty much defying all of these apparent things Sonic Team is notorious for doing. Also, how the in the world are games like Colors and Generations, which are critically acclaimed, not excelling? Do you think they just stopped somewhere during development and thought "Nah this is good enough" and began spinning their wheels? What sense does that make?

 

...Can you please point to me where and when did I say gameplay is the only thing that makes a game better? Are you kidding me? What I'm trying to say is, as a complete package the game needs more than pretty visuals and good music, and if the gameplay fails at being a good part of the game, the complete package as a whole isn't completely great. Sure if the game's actual focus itself are in things like the music, or visuals or whatever, but the gameplay should at least be up to par to be fun, or interesting.

 

I dunno, maybe its the fact that we've been criticizing how they've been handling the plot and characters, or how constrictive the boost gameplay was. Only one of these was addressed, I still don't have my plot and characters tho.

 

Why are you speaking as if nobody here wants good gameplay? NO. SHIT. Seriously, are you seriously trying to convince me because I want to have a more cohesive narrative and more playable characters that I suddenly don't want the gameplay to be good. Anybody with half a brain wants good gameplay from a game, why are you assuming this? Where is this assumption coming from because I know I didn't make it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't recall anyone ever saying that they would rather the gameplay suffer while everything else is good throughout the years I've been on this forum, which only festers this strawman of badgering people every time they talk about improving anything other than the gameplay itself.

 

I think, after ShTH and Sonic 06 failed us in that very department that people know better than that. There's hardly point in telling us "Gameplay comes first" or any variation their off when talking about anything beyond that.

Edited August 15, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Xenos]

I agree there's nothing wrong with experimentation. But it becomes a bad excuse when people keep telling me that experimentation is essentially standing in between having games that I feel are sliding by, games that are essentially being praised a lot of the time for merely doing nothing wrong, and games that could be a lot more immersive and meaningful. The reason this is a bad excuse is because Sonic Team have not shown any signs for nearly a decade that they have any idea what they want the franchise to exemplify from now on, meaning they can't possibly be working towards any specified goals. There is no guarantee that any experimentation will pay off and we'll reach this magical, mystical point in time where everything is "perfect" and thus we can start bringing in other characters and better storytelling again to add on top of it. Ultimately, this means the timetable for these things is nonexistent. It could happen the next game, or it could be never. No one knows, thus telling me to wait is useless advice. I've been waiting, now I want an actual plan. What the fuck does Sonic Team need to do to feel comfortable doing the things they used to do in the 90s?

 

Also, the games didn't suffer because Sonic Team devoted time to other elements of game design. The games suffered because Sonic Team became an incompetent developer for whatever reason. Shadow the Hedgehog doesn't deserve commending because it has one character and gameplay style at the helm. Besides, do we really feel today's Sonic Team is so utterly, overwhelmingly, unbelievably stupid- even when they're cranking out games we like, like Colors and Generations- that they can't at the very least make Tails playable without fucking everything up?

 

 

In the 90s, I don't recall them having to deal with a divisive fanbase with so many different voices shouting different things, half the time we confuse each other. They also had one gameplay style they used the whole time and didn't have to deal with things like 3D worlds and critics like the ones we have today.

 

 

I dunno, maybe its the fact that we've been criticizing how they've been handling the plot and characters, or how constrictive the boost gameplay was. Only one of these was addressed, I still don't have my plot and characters tho.

 

Why are you speaking as if nobody here wants good gameplay? NO. SHIT. Seriously, are you seriously trying to convince me because I want to have a more cohesive narrative and more playable characters that I suddenly don't want the gameplay to be good. Anybody with half a brain wants good gameplay from a game, why are you assuming this? Where is this assumption coming from because I know I didn't make it.

 

Where the hell are your assumptions coming from man? Where did I say none of you want good gameplay? Just, when and where? Please tell me! I'm not convincing you of anything, I'm just saying my point of view and I don't know what the hell you're talking about? I'm beginning to wonder who's making the assumptions here.

[Nepenthe]

In the 90s, I don't recall them having to deal with a divisive fanbase with so many different voices shouting different things, half the time we confuse each other. They also had one gameplay style they used the whole time and didn't have to deal with things like 3D worlds and critics like the ones we have today.

 

I remember a lot of things in the 90s- and even today- being optional, which means any potential for fracturing is mitigated by the fact that people with different gameplay preferences have choices and could thus ignore the things they didn't like. To cater to people who like and don't like playing as other characters, make Sonic great to play as but throw in optional reskins (I personally don't like reskins, but I guess we have to take baby steps lest we risk giving gamers epileptic seizures at the thought of having to do something slightly different than Sonic's default maneuvers). To cater to people who like and don't like story, create a good story but put in a big-ass skip button so players don't have to bother. Seriously, this isn't rocket science, and Sonic Team has the writing chops and developmental prowess to pull it off. To say they don't again conjures up the idea that you still believe they're Sonic 06 levels of incompetent.

[Kuzu]

Where the hell are your assumptions coming from man? Where did I say none of you want good gameplay? Just, when and where? Please tell me! I'm not convincing you of anything, I'm just saying my point of view and I don't know what the hell you're talking about? I'm beginning to wonder who's making the assumptions here.

 

Because you keep speaking as if Sonic Team suddenly started to focus on something beyond gameplay, that it would suddenly suck. OF COURSE we expect good gameplay, why wouldn't we? Because we wanted a more cohesive narrative? How in what way does that make sense? You're talking about the game as a whole, well last I checked a game has more than just gameplay that makes it up; it goes without saying that the gameplay needs to be good, so why are you speaking as if none of us don't know that?

[Xenos]

I remember a lot of things in the 90s- and even today- being optional, which means any potential for fracturing is mitigated by the fact that people with different gameplay preferences have choices and could thus ignore the things they didn't like. To cater to people who like and don't like playing as other characters, make Sonic great to play as but throw in optional reskins (I personally don't like reskins, but I guess we have to take baby steps lest we risk giving gamers epileptic seizures at the thought of having to do something slightly different than Sonic's default maneuvers). To cater to people who like and don't like story, create a good story but put in a big-ass skip button so players don't have to bother. Seriously, this isn't rocket science, and Sonic Team has the writing chops and developmental prowess to pull it off. To say they don't again conjures up the idea that you still believe they're Sonic 06 levels of incompetent.

 

I don't think they can't pull this off, in fact, I'd like to see them try. I don't like the assumption that just because I don't feel they need to do these things, all things considered, that I think they're incompetent.

 

 

Because you keep speaking as if Sonic Team suddenly started to focus on something beyond gameplay, that it would suddenly suck. OF COURSE we expect good gameplay, why wouldn't we? Because we wanted a more cohesive narrative? How in what way does that make sense? You're talking about the game as a whole, well last I checked a game has more than just gameplay that makes it up; it goes without saying that the gameplay needs to be good, so why are you speaking as if none of us don't know that?

 

I..don't know where it looks like I'm talking down to anyone here. And I never said it would suddenly suck. What the hell? Of course a game has more than gameplay that makes it up. I never denied this.

 

I do notice something here, it's the word "potential". It's used so often it makes me almost sick of saying or using the word myself, and there's a problem when you try to say the games are worse because they aren't using their full "potential".

 

Put it like this.

 When you measure something of a finite amount to "potential" you are already comparing it to something that is infinite, something that cannot be measured. If you do that anything will be comparably worse because it's not using it's full "potential".

 This is the mentality used with the modern games.

 And at it's core it makes no logical sense.

 

Comparing anything to "potential" will just make the actual, finite of amount the product is look comparably worse because you're already making an imaginary scale to stack it and your potential onto it. And since potential of course could be literally anything, that scale is going to be easily more heavy on the side of "potential" because it's infinite.