Are you satisfied with the direction of the series; if not what would you change?

[Kuzu]

The Sonic Franchise is actually extremely lucky to have such a dedicated fanbase....during the dark years Sonic should have went the way Crash and Spyro did, but by a miracle it managed to pull through.

 

I don't think Sonic can survive another one of these events though. I much rather Sonic team take their time and build up reputation than for them to take risk that will end up biting them in the ass. Sonic Team has to be even more cautious because of their money issues and cuts. They can't afford 1 of tier biggest cash cows to take a plummet again, I'm holding out for the narrative to be decent this go around in Lost World...

 

While SEGA indeed at fault for the situation they are in, I do believe that the fanbase is being Unrealistic with their expectation and impatient. People are missing the big picture and are not taking in consideration of the company at all. They just want individual needs to be satisfied. The fact of the matter is the game isn't just for you its for everyone even SEGA themselves.

 

I do think sonic team need to try a bit harder though, but for people to say Sonic Lost World isn't taking risk is stupid, the fact that the game is actually making people upset from a conceptual stand point is enough proof that its trying somewhat.

 

Despite this though I'm am indeed holding out for he narrative in SLW, I have a big feeling people are going to be surprised by it.

 

Well, that's the thing. Doesn't the fact that the series have such a dedicated fanbase just give more of a reason for Sega to try their best? I mean we've stuck through for the shittiest of shit, and had to put up with some extremely mediocre titles so I don't think we're being too unreasonable in refusing to settle for just "good".

 

I get that Sega are on hard times, but that's all the more reason for them to take risks; I don't want them to sit in their bubble and grow complacent because they released a few good games, I want them to take what they have and grow. Fix the problems not for them to sweep them under the rug and hope people forget about them.

 

You are right when you say the fanbase does not know what they want, but then so does every fanbase in the history of everything. There is not one fanbase I know where everyone can agree on something and Sonic isn't really a special case in this regard. The only reason we get singled out so much because Sega have yet to address anything the fanbase wants which just causes more rioting.

 

Right now, Sega are appealing to the casual crowd. That's perfectly fine because casual gamers make up a lot more of the gaming crowd than hardcore gamers and are generally more accepting of changes than the hardcore crowd. The thing is however, casual gamers are just that..they're casual, unless something really captures their interest, they're just gonna move onto something else without a second thought. Hardcore gamers, while extremely picky and nonsensical at times, are still the people who give you most of your money, which you yourself said when you claimed that the series has a real dedicated fanbase. So naturally, they should take equal consideration with those fans too. If a fanbase seems like it consists of braindead children, then suck it up and deal with it and try to find some worthwhile fans. If 90% of a fanbase is shitty, that still leaves 10% of sane and rational people out there who's complaints can be legit.

 

I don't think the fanbase is being as unreasonable as you make them sound honestly, is it really that unreasonable to want a better narrative? Is it unreasonable to want characters that we've grown to love over the years to actually be playable and have prominence? If so, then please tell me because I'd really like to hear why these complaints are "asking too much".

[Dizcrybe]

Does Lost World not count as a risk? I mean, the gameplay is pretty different than any previous era of Sonic,

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't think the fanbase is being as unreasonable as you make them sound honestly, is it really that unreasonable to want a better narrative? Is it unreasonable to want characters that we've grown to love over the years to actually be playable and have prominence? If so, then please tell me because I'd really like to hear why these complaints are "asking too much".

No, but then again that's mainly our side of the fanbase, the grey area here that puts more thought into these things. Meanwhile, other factions, outlets, and individuals jump the bandwagon of insane troll logic that says having a narrative will ruin Sonic, having a voice will ruin Sonic, having characters that weren't in the classics will ruin Sonic, and so forth. This confliction with the factions is where the unreasonable air is coming from, where one side wants this the other turns and says "no, that's bad" as if that would automatically be the case.

[Nepenthe]

I imagine when people say risk, they're referring to a creative one that would have serious potential to upset the general gamer base on principle. Gameplay usually isn't so because gamers and the public have never been finicky about whatever was the base Sonic gameplay at the time. So, it's no big creative risk to shake up the foundational dynamics with Parkour moves. So long as Sonic can get up to speed and function properly, the gameplay will be given a pass. It is, however, a major risk to have Shadow make a major story appearance, even with better writers at the helm, because he is widely disliked and thus the game will fall prey to negative confirmation bias to some degree.

Of course, new gameplay is a risk on a technical front, but every game is. You never know what can go wrong on a production. Regardless, Sonic Team has earned enough good will back that most don't believe this is going to be a Sonic 06-level disaster, so we naturally feel the risks are mitigated on that front anyway.

[Neon The Hedgehog]

           I agree, as long as the Parkour does not harm Sonics speed then I'm cool with Lost Worlds. Since the whole point is to run at the speed of sound while fighting badniks. I think its good that Sega keeps putting Sonic in new situations or different forms of gameplay. Because if the series does not keep evolving then the story will fall flat. No one wants to play the same kind of game over and over again. With that said, since Sega is always trying new things its possible that along the way there will be games we dislike. Hopefully nothing that will upset the fan base as much as 06 did (the animosity for that game is a bit scary. *fearfully avoids all the 06 topics*). The flip side to that is that there will be games we love a lot. So I am staying on the fence with Lost Worlds, at least until I play it. Whether I like the game or not, I know I will love the music for it. 

Edited September 3, 2013 by Neon The Hedgehog

[ArtFenix]

it's no big creative risk to shake up the foundational dynamics with Parkour moves. So long as Sonic can get up to speed and function properly, the gameplay will be given a pass. It is, however, a major risk to have Shadow make a major story appearance, even with better writers at the helm, because he is widely disliked

He is disliked by the so-called "gaming journalists". He's still the most popular character after Sonic, how is he "disliked"? But that's more of a conversation Azure Yakuzu was talking about - doing something for the dedicated fans.

Edited September 3, 2013 by ArtFenix

[Kuzu]

He is disliked by the so-called "gaming journalists". He's still the most popular character after Sonic, how is he "disliked"? But that's more of a conversation Azure Yakuzu was talking about - doing something for the dedicated fans.

How relevant is that poll considering its over 10 years old? And the fact that we, the fans, just spent the last two pages arguing about him merely existing?

Shadow is still a controversial character, in and out the fanbase so his inclusion is a risky one regardless of who do still like him.

[ArtFenix]

How relevant is that poll considering its over 10 years old? And the fact that we, the fans, just spent the last two pages arguing about him merely existing?

Shadow is still a controversial character, in and out the fanbase so his inclusion is a risky one regardless of who do still like him.

He may not be as popular as he once was but he's still one of the most popular characters in the series even if he's somewhat controversial.

Edited September 3, 2013 by ArtFenix

[Nepenthe]

Shadow isn't popular with general gamers either, and I'd have to wonder how popular he still is among the hard core Sonic base, especially when the only proof of character standing is a decade old.

 

But this is all regardless of my point. If something isn't liked by critics of all people, it would still be a creative risk to make a game with said something in it, because critics are people too and are subject to confirmation bias. Speaking of confirmation bias, reviews and scores hold sway over our buying habits- as much as we'd like to think they don't- so you'd be stupid to deliberately piss critical outlets off from the get-go. Unfortunately, this viewpoint isn't jiving with some people in the community who would rather they start focusing again on creative ideas that may be appealing to them but unappealing to the critics and masses.

 

Ultimately, this is what people are referring to when they say Sonic Team "isn't taking risks." It's not a creative risk to change up the foundational gameplay mechanics because critics never vocally gave a shit about how we were playing as normal Sonic so long as we were and it was functional, hence why Parkour is no big thing. Same with familiar tropes of platformers like power ups or non-existent narrative. These things are not going to set a trigger off because they're familiar and liked and expected, so they pass under the radar, sometimes even regardless of their quality. It is comparatively less ballsy to make a game like Colors than one like Sonic Adventure if we're talking strictly about pleasing critics, even though Sonic Adventure has a lot of good ideas under its helm.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Not sure if relevant, but Shadow makes it to #25 out of 50 in the 2011 Guinness World Record of Video Game characters. So in a way he's number 2 since he's the second Sonic character on that list, with Sonic beating him in 10th place.

 

It's about the most recent poll I can find, so it's worth something. Still doesn't detract that he's still controversial in the series.

[Scar]

Shadow needs to be reinvented as a character.

Its no longer good enough for him to be the token "Badass McCoolness" that appeals to immature 13 year olds, who think that Shadow (and for some reason, they too) are "mature".

But you'd need to work the character back in slow. Starting with cameos that are in the game, but never, EVER brought up at press events. That goes for any character to be honest. Reintroduce them in an unobtrusive way, and get the non-fans to like the characters before bringing them back in a big way. Just shunting them in head-first will only reignite some of the hate brought about from the Dark Ages....particularly with Shadow.

[Nepenthe]

You could simply rewrite him in one go to make him appealing anyway. It's the same as when they completely changed up the scripting and writing and voice cast immediately in Colors, and critics expressed positive surprise at the improvement. There was no "They sprung this on me too fast." This isn't a war here; we're not on a presidential time table or anything. xP

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Or you can go the way Kojima did with Raiden in the Metal Gear series where, while not playable, he has some decent characterization and roles to him and see how people react from there.

 

I think the point is not so much go slowly than it is, take out the bad parts of the character that didn't jive with the audience, place him in a noticably important, though not huge role, and see how things work out from their. It's worth noting that, even when he and every character was reduced to the role of a cheerleader in Generations, people still complained about them simply for being around, so cameos probably aren't going to help if it doesn't help better the character and people still rage at their existence.

[Marcello]

I know I bring this up every time Shadow is mentioned, but he was good in Free Riders. Too bad it was in a Kinect game that was hated. Maybe it would've made at least some of the haters to soften up to him a little otherwise.

[ArtFenix]

Shadow was great in Sa2, Battle and Free Riders. He was also quite good in Heroes S06 and Chronicles (except "I LOVE OMEGA" stuff).

The recipe for making him good is very easy. Let him forget his past but keep his arrogant attitude from Sa2/Free Riders. And make him joke from time to time. In a sarcastic tone or something of that sort.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I know I bring this up every time Shadow is mentioned, but he was good in Free Riders. Too bad it was in a Kinect game that was hated. Maybe it would've made at least some of the haters to soften up to him a little otherwise.

Well it's worth bringing up so that people know it is possible to make this character better as far as characterization goes.

[Zaysho]

The only problem with Shadow people keep bringing up is his most well-known trait (his moodiness and brooding nature), but even that is something that he doesn't even express much anymore. People will keep pointing to his game as to why he's not a good character and automatically assume there's no hope for him. It's the same reason casual observers (who aren't Sonic fans, but seem to love bashing the series because it's the "cool" thing to do) will automatically state that Sonic games aren't good and keep talking like 2006 is still relevant when it was dead and buried a year after with other games. It's really more of a case of people seeing what they want to see, rather than going beyond that limited scope.

 

And again, this is a problem that extends to the entire cast, who have all suffered at the hands of bad writing and get the "shitty friend" label by the press and people outside of the fandom (I recall IGN wrote something to the effect of getting rid of all of Sonic's friends including Tails since it all started with him, or something to that effect). You know what the fix is? Make them not suck. Make them likable. Make us want them around and make us want to play as them. Sonic Team could probably pore through this board alone and get enough ideas to start working on something to elevate the rest of the cast out of the pit they threw them in to begin with.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Zaysho

[Celestia]

(except "I LOVE OMEGA" stuff).

Quick aside: while I haven't played Chronicles--so I dunno how it was handled (probably badly 8U)--I like the idea of Shadow being overprotective of Omega. Assuming Shadow's immortality means he doesn't grow old, Omega's the only one of his friends that's gonna be around in, say, a hundred or so years. Theoretically.

 

MORE ON TOPIC: I like Shadow and I don't really see how he can't easily fit in with the rest of the cast? I mean, being a serious character isn't inherently a bad thing.  Plus, he can still be comedic, under the right circumstances. For one his social skills are arguably even worse than Knuckles, and I could see him being the "straight man" to Sonic's "wise guy". (Tails and Knuckles can play that role as well, just for different reasons.)  You could have some Not So Above It All moments as well, maybe there's a less serious side to him we haven't seen before? If all else fails, like ArtFenix said, he could at least deadpan snark with the best of them, probably.

 

I haven't watched those cutscenes in probably a year, but I like how Free Riders make him the cocky, smug guy that he was in SA2. It makes sense actually, he's moved on from his past and while he's understandably not going to be nice anytime soon, it doesn't mean he has to be constantly "angsty" or whatever. For the record, unlike some, I'm not adverse to serious emotions in Sonic, especially if the narrative has reason for it. Translation and presentation issues aside, I thought the Adventures handled that sort of thing fine, as did a few other games in the series.

 

Oh, and I disagree with the notion I've seen on occasion that Shadow can't fit in with more lighthearted games. I just don't understand the logic behind that, I guess. Sonic himself is generally a fun character, but that doesn't stop him from appearing in games with more serious stories without compromising his character. The most obvious example that comes to mind of what I mean by that is Sonic Adventure 2, actually.

Edited September 3, 2013 by ElementofChaos

[Vertekins]

Quick aside: while I haven't played Chronicles--so I dunno how it was handled (probably badly 8U)--I like the idea of Shadow being overprotective of Omega. Assuming Shadow's immortality means he doesn't grow old, Omega's the only one of his friends that's gonna be around in, say, a hundred or so years. Theoretically.

 

You can make a character protective of their closest associates without making them OOC. Chronicles is so hilariously bad at characterizing Shadow regarding this that it violates it's own proclamations in the codex regarding him.

[Kuzu]

For all intents and purpose, whatever about Shadow that needed to be "fixed" has already been done; he hasn't sworn, used a gun, or drove a car in ages. So I honestly do not see any reason for him to not appear beyond fans and critics alike never letting him live down his game, at which point you may as well use him because if people are going to hate him whether he appears or not, then there's really nothing to be lost.

 

This can apply to the entire cast honestly.

You can make a character protective of their closest associates without making them OOC. Chronicles is so hilariously bad at characterizing Shadow regarding this that it violates it's own proclamations in the codex regarding him.

 

This is the same guy who tried to blow up a planet because the government killed his adoptive sister, I don't think being a bit overprotective of his friends is really that out there for Shadow.

[Vertekins]

For all intents and purpose, whatever about Shadow that needed to be "fixed" has already been done; he hasn't sworn, used a gun, or drove a car in ages. So I honestly do not see any reason for him to not appear beyond fans and critics alike never letting him live down his game, at which point you may as well use him because if people are going to hate him whether he appears or not, then there's really nothing to be lost.

 

This can apply to the entire cast honestly.

 

It can honestly apply to the entire series.

 

Sonic game series had a rough patch? I totally couldn't have figured that out myself considering so many reviews nowadays love to open-up with this now irrelevant bullshit!

 

This is the same guy who tried to blow up a planet because the government killed his adoptive sister, I don't think being a bit overprotective of his friends is really that out there for Shadow.

 

And Chronicles was the same game that claimed that Shadow views anything in his path as an obstacle to be evaded than a threat to be destroyed. Shadow's actions in SA2 were a product of what Gerald programmed him to do coupled with his own misconception of Maria's final wish and no longer have any real gravity on his morality and approach to things.

[Kuzu]

And that was the same game that claimed that Shadow views anything in his path as an obstacle to be evaded than a threat to be destroyed. Shadow's actions in SA2 were a product of what Gerald programmed him to do and no longer have any gravity on his morality and approach to things.

That still doesn't change the fact that he's still protective of the few friends he does have.

[Vertekins]

That still doesn't change the fact that he's still protective of the few friends he does have.

 

Of course it doesn't. All I'm saying is that that trait can be pulled-off without making it look exaggerated beyond all reason and contrary to the way Shadow is inclined to actually handle the issue of his comrades in danger. Even SONIC '06 handled Shadow's rescue of Rouge from White Acropolis better than Chronicles did with Omega.

[Kuzu]

Of course it doesn't. All I'm saying is that that trait can be pulled-off without making it look exaggerated beyond all reason and contrary to the way Shadow is inclined to actually handle the issue of his comrades in danger. Even SONIC '06 handled Shadow's rescue of Rouge from White Acropolis better than Chronicles did with Omega.

 

Then describe to me what was exaggerated about it?

[Vertekins]

Then describe to me what was exaggerated about it?

 

First of all, the codex claims that Shadow treats obstacles to his goals as things to be evaded rather than forcibly removed. Questionable interpretation of Shadow's attitude towards things that oppose him aside, the game violates this 'logic' by having Shadow act like he's on a roaring rampage of revenge who actively wants to attack and kill any marauder who either gets in his way or who is responsible for Omega's incarceration and who will derive immense satisfaction out of actually doing so.

 

Secondly, during the time that Shadow is a part of the party, the only thing he cares about is Omega and absolutely nothing else. He'll irrationally engage Sonic in fights at least twice and threaten to leave the party if it doesn't accomplish what he wants done first priority. He coldly rebuffs any attempts by the party to associate with him more closely because of his fixation with Omega.

 

It comes off to me as this poor attempt to portray Shadow as a lone wolf and as someone who is near-completely adverse to interacting with those he allies himself with when this isn't really the case. Shadow may be more introverted than say, Sonic and he can tend to have a single-minded dedication to his goals but he hardly comes off as jerkish and aggressive when it comes to that, he's more matter-of-factly and calm. Chronicles Shadow comes-off to me as very snidey and excessively self-centered with feels like an exaggeration of his mannerisms.