Sonic: An Ensemble Series

[Wraith]

Do what the comic's did. Give the games their own "Sonic Universe". Like some sort of spin-off series where each game is focused on a different character, like Tails' Adventure, Knuckles' Chaotix and Shadow the Hedgehog

 

I highly doubt character spinoffs would sell all that well, honestly. 

 

 

I could see an Eggman spinoff going somewhere, but other than that? nah.

Edited August 28, 2013 by -Link-

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I want to address this point personally; This is essentially saying, Sonic doesn't have to always be the protagonist that the story is about, but he does need to at least be the hero, the character that's able to solve the problems of the plot even if they aren't particularly about him.

 

06 Sonic doesn't really solve anything in the plot because he never knew what the fuck was going on.

 

That's more or less what I was saying...although I wouldn't say he needs to be the one to solve the problems than he is someone who is aware of them and at least tries to solve the problems of the plot whether they're about him or not. I mean, it says a lot that we often expect Sonic to stop Eggman's plans, but it comes off as a shocker when Sonic, with all his suspicions in the right place, does so entirely by accident while still trying to figure out what the plan is like he did in Colors.

 

That, and other character can be allowed to help stop the threat or be the ones to stop the threat. The point is that Sonic is leading the charge to get there.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Splash the Otter]

For starters, anyone (and I mean anyone, no exceptions, no "ifs," "ands," or "buts" about it) who isn't named Sonic or Eggman should be in the backseat, for the sake of fairness.

Would you mind explaining exactly what makes Dr Eggman is so vital that he absolutely must be in every game? The only reason I can think of is that Sonic Team are too lazy to come up with other recurring villains. I think Akito's post sums up my opinion on the subject (even though I disagree with Tails always having to appear):

Basically, I feel that there should be one central cast of characters that absolutely must appear in every game.  That cast, in my opinion, extends solely to Sonic and Tails. (Because I like Tails... yes, I'm biased like that.)  Then you have characters which appear fairly often, but can be sidelined or removed if necessary.  Those characters would be Eggman, Knuckles, and Amy.  (Now if you give the latter two more development, they can fit in with the Sonic and Tails category, and I'm only putting Eggman on here because I think the series could benefit from switching out villains every so often; he should still be the main antagonist, but taking a break from him every once and awhile won't harm anyone).

In the end, I think the only character (and by that I mean the only character ever) that is needed for any game is Sonic, by virtue of being the main protagonist and the one the franchise is named after.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ElectroKyurem

[Kuzu]

 

That's more or less what I was saying...although I wouldn't say he needs to be the one to solve the problems than he is someone who is aware of them and at least tries to solve the problems of the plot whether they're about him or not. I mean, it says a lot that we often expect Sonic to stop Eggman's plans, but it comes off as a shocker when Sonic, with all his suspicions in the right place, does so entirely by accident while still trying to figure out what the plan is like he did in Colors.

 

That, and other character can be allowed to help stop the threat or be the ones to stop the threat. The point is that Sonic is leading the charge to get there.

 

 

Oh god don't remind me, I still hate that shit.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Would you mind explaining exactly what makes Dr Eggman is so vital that he absolutely must be in every game? 

We need an antagonist to create the conflict and therefore give us a story to begin with (because this ain't a Slice of Life where we can ignore conflict), and like Sonic, Eggman is one who helped start this series in the first place to give it the iconic identity it has. He's the Bowser to Mario, the Ganon to Link, and while (like those games) you can have a different villain every once in a while in the same way you can have a different star hero every once in a while, Eggman helped set the standard more than any other character after him with the exception of Sonic, and I think an iconic villain is far more vital with an iconic hero than non-iconic ones.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Kuzu]

We need an antagonist to create the conflict and therefore give us a story to begin with (because this ain't a Slice of Life where we can ignore conflict), and like Sonic, Eggman is one who helped start this series in the first place to give it the iconic identity it has. He's the Bowser to Mario, the Ganon to Link, and while (like those games) you can have a different villain every once in a while in the same way you can have a different star hero every once in a while, Eggman helped set the standard more than any other character after him with the exception of Sonic.

 

If Eggman can be swapped out with any other villain, doesn't that kinda mean he isn't exactly a necessity? Even Ganon doesn't appear in every game(SS being a recent and notable one) and Bowser doesn't always have a role when he isn't the Big Bad himself, no reason why Eggman needs to appear all of the time in this case.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If Eggman can be swapped out with any other villain, doesn't that kinda mean he isn't exactly a necessity? Even Ganon doesn't appear in every game(SS being a recent and notable one) and Bowser doesn't always have a role when he isn't the Big Bad himself, no reason why Eggman needs to appear all of the time in this case.

Well the thing is, he can't be swapped out with any other villain, because no other villain in this series is as iconic as he is. Not if you're talking about doing so in the long term. Short term is a different matter because it's a break every once in a while, but eventually it'll go back to the icons.

 

As I said previously, it's the same way in that you could swap out Sonic as the lead hero, which by your logic would mean Sonic isn't a necessity either as far as the protagonist goes; you can do it, but at this point don't count on it being long term.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Kuzu]

Well the thing is, he can't be swapped out with any other villain, because no other villain in this series is as iconic as he is. Not if you're talking about doing so in the long term. Short term is a different matter because it's a break every once in a while, but eventually it'll go back to the icons.

 

As I said previously, it's the same way in that you could swap out Sonic as the lead hero, which by your logic would mean Sonic isn't a necessity either as far as the protagonist goes; you can do it, but at this point don't count on it being long term.

 

I am speaking short term, but even so. Didn't you just go on about other people putting characters in a heirarchy, but aren't you doing the same with Eggman when claiming how "iconic" he is? 

 

I did say Sonic doesn't always have to be the protagonist, but at least needs to be a major player given the fact that the series is named after him. 

 

Put it this way; a game without Sonic isn't a Sonic game because it doesn't have the titular character, but a Sonic game is still a Sonic game without Eggman, objectively speaking. Nobody really minded Eggman's absence in Black Knight.

[Splash the Otter]

We need an antagonist to create the conflict and therefore give us a story to begin with (because this ain't a Slice of Life where we can ignore conflict), and like Sonic, Eggman is one who helped start this series in the first place to give it the iconic identity it has. He's the Bowser to Mario, the Ganon to Link, and while (like those games) you can have a different villain every once in a while in the same way you can have a different star hero every once in a while, Eggman helped set the standard more than any other character after him with the exception of Sonic, and I think an iconic villain is far more vital with an iconic hero than non-iconic ones.

I agree that the story needs some kind of conflict, but I don't understand why it needs anything to do with Dr. Eggman. When you get right down to it, the only reason people think he's vital is because he's the only villain Sonic Team seems to give a damn about, to the point that roughly 90% of the enemies in the games are Badniks! Face it, CSS. Dr Eggman is not a vital character, and until the name of the franchise gets changed to "Sonic & Eggman", he never will be!

 

By the way, he only "gave the series the iconic identity it has" because he was in Sonic 1. Doesn't that make your argument kind of hypocritical? I mean, you're essentially claiming that seniority=merit, which you're usually opposed to.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I am speaking short term, but even so. Didn't you just go on about other people putting characters in a heirarchy, but aren't you doing the same with Eggman when claiming how "iconic" he is? 

Yes, and for Sonic as well. Everyone is okay with Sonic and Eggman no matter what, but beyond these two is where favoritism starts rearing it's ugly head. I said that about the hierarchy to prevent other characters such as Tails, Amy, and Knuckles from being given main roles by default while stratifying others to prevent them from growing towards their level.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Kuzu]

Yes, and for Sonic as well. Everyone is okay with Sonic and Eggman no matter what, but beyond these two is where favoritism starts rearing it's ugly head. I said that about the hierarchy to prevent other characters such as Tails, Amy, and Knuckles from being given main roles by default while stratifying others to prevent them from growing towards their level.

 

How is it not favoritism to say that only Sonic & Eggman are the only important characters that "need" to appear anymore so than wanting Tails, Knuckles, or Amy to appear?

 

Like, if Eggman was the sole antagonist then your claim would be more valid, but we both agree that he's interchangeable should they introduce other villains.

[Tara]

Would you mind explaining exactly what makes Dr Eggman is so vital that he absolutely must be in every game? The only reason I can think of is that Sonic Team are too lazy to come up with other recurring villains. I think Akito's post sums up my opinion on the subject (even though I disagree with Tails always having to appear):

In the end, I think the only character (and by that I mean the only character ever) that is needed for any game is Sonic, by virtue of being the main protagonist and the one the franchise is named after.

I was mostly kidding about Tails being mandatory.  I was jokingly saying "Sonic... and Tails because I fucking love Tails." XP - I'm more than open to Tails being sidelined or excluded from a game or two, as it proved to be a good move in Sonic Unleashed.  But because, again, I love Tails, I wouldn't want too many games without him.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

How is it not favoritism to say that only Sonic & Eggman are the only important characters that "need" to appear anymore so than wanting Tails, Knuckles, or Amy to appear?

 

Like, if Eggman was the sole antagonist then your claim would be more valid, but we both agree that he's interchangeable should they introduce other villains.

Because hardly anyone argues over Sonic and Eggman's importance in the series while you see bickering everywhere for anyone else, people wanting Tails, Knuckles, and Amy to be given more while denying other characters like Shadow, Rouge, or Big to even have the same number of chances or Shadow being the only rival that matters for example.

 

But that's until they introduce other villains and stop making them one-shots. Until then Eggman's all we have as far as a recurring villain...unless you want to make use of Eggman Nega that is?

 

I agree that the story needs some kind of conflict, but I don't understand why it needs anything to do with Dr. Eggman. When you get right down to it, the only reason people think he's vital is because he's the only villain Sonic Team seems to give a damn about, to the point that roughly 90% of the enemies in the games are Badniks!

Well do you know of any other villains out there that can compare to Eggman? Ones that aren't one-shots and can be made to be recurring characters?

Because the only one that comes close is Eggman Nega, but if you want to use him more I wouldn't really mind.

Face it, CSS. Dr Eggman is not a vital character, and until the name of the franchise gets changed to "Sonic & Eggman", he never will be!

He is as long as he's the only recurring villain of this series to create the conflict, and until that changes in the long term there's no getting around that.

By the way, he only "gave the series the iconic identity it has" because he was in Sonic 1. Doesn't that make your argument kind of hypocritical? I mean, you're essentially claiming that seniority=merit, which you're usually opposed to.

Not really, because we don't have any other iconic antagonists in this series to compare Eggman with. Can you name one that you would use?

Edited August 28, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Splash the Otter]

Because hardly anyone argues over Sonic and Eggman's importance in the series while you see bickering everywhere for anyone else, people wanting Tails, Knuckles, and Amy to be given more while denying other characters like Shadow, Rouge, or Big to even have the same number of chances or Shadow being the only rival that matters for example.

 

But that's until they introduce other villains and stop making them one-shots. Until then Eggman's all we have as far as a recurring villain...unless you want to make use of Eggman Nega that is?

 

Well do you know of any other villains out there that can compare to Eggman? Ones that aren't one-shots and can be made to be recurring characters?

Because the only one that comes close is Eggman Nega, but if you want to use him more I wouldn't really mind.

He is as long as he's the only recurring villain of this series to create the conflict, and until that changes in the long term there's no getting around that.

Not really, because we don't have any other iconic antagonists in this series to compare Eggman with. Can you name one that you would use?

How about the BattleKukku Army? They aren't exactly iconic, but they could stand in for Dr Eggman without too much trouble.

 

But like I have said multiple times, it's kind of have diverse villains when Sonic Team only wants to develop one of them to any extent. That doesn't make Dr Eggman vital. It just makes him more versatile than the other antagonists.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ElectroKyurem

[Wraith]

How about the BattleKukku Army? They aren't exactly iconic, but they could stand in for Dr Eggman without too much trouble.

 

 

What's the point of having a team nobody actually knows about "stand in" for Eggman when the good doctor himself could suit any role the BattleKukku army could just fine? 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

How about the BattleKukku Army? They aren't exactly iconic, but they could stand in for Dr Eggman without too much trouble.

Well they're not iconic, so they can't compare. Which is what I was asking for.

 

But I'm not so stiff not to deny them from being useful, having written a fanfic in-progress that uses them.

But like I have said multiple times, it's kind of have diverse villains when Sonic Team only wants to develop one of them to any extent. That doesn't make Dr Eggman vital. It just makes him more versatile than the other antagonists.

It makes Eggman vital when he is one of the few recurring foes out of the entire lot of those villains. Unlike the recurring protagonists where you can shift them around, we practically only have one major recurring villain that can fight them...aside from Nega, but I don't believe you have any interest in using him.

 

Until that changes, and they start making more recurring antagonist with their own unique qualities for the long term, Eggman is vital for this very purpose.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Chaos Incarnate]

Make each character contribute equally to the story without over glorifying most characters more than each other, or make some of them look inferior to others. Case in point, I'm tired of Knuckles being shoved aside and made the useless comic relief character. It's time for him to get some respect.

 

In terms of gameplay/structure, don't have too many characters playable in the same game, or else it could become a cluster **** of massive proportions. I for one would love to see the return of the Sonic 3 & K formula: select the character you want to play as from the main menu, and make all of their stories relevant to the main plot in some way. Don't make the gameplay too different either( for example, mech shooting and treasure hunting). Have each character move on foot and get to the goal ring, and make their special abilities so unique that we want to play as them, instead of groaning and wanting to just go back to playing as Sonic. 

 

Overall, make sure the characters have a purpose for being in the game to begin with instead of being a shoe horned cameo.

[Splash the Otter]

Well they're not iconic, so they can't compare. Which is what I was asking for.

 

But I'm not so stiff not to deny them from being useful, having written a fanfic in-progress that uses them.

It makes Eggman vital when he is one of the few recurring foes out of the entire lot of those villains. Unlike the recurring protagonists where you can shift them around, we practically only have one major recurring villain that can fight them...aside from Nega, but I don't believe you have any interest in using him.

 

Until that changes, and they start making more recurring antagonist with their own unique qualities for the long term, Eggman is vital for this very purpose.

You just proved my point. He's only "vital" because Sonic Team can't be bothered to use someone different! Sonic on the other hand is needed because he's the title character. Like I said before, the series is called "Sonic the Hedgehog", not "Sonic & Dr Eggman".

Edited August 28, 2013 by ElectroKyurem

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You just proved my point. He's only "vital" because Sonic Team can't be bothered to use someone different! Sonic on the other hand is needed because he's the title character. Like I said before, the series is called "Sonic the Hedgehog", not "Sonic & Dr Eggman".

Sounds no different to what I said in my previous posts over an recurring iconic villain being compared to Eggman in the series. Even Sonic took a backseat in Shadow's game, but that a whole new can of worms to open.

 

My point still stands either way.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Kuzu]

Because hardly anyone argues over Sonic and Eggman's importance in the series while you see bickering everywhere for anyone else, people wanting Tails, Knuckles, and Amy to be given more while denying other characters like Shadow, Rouge, or Big to even have the same number of chances or Shadow being the only rival that matters for example.

 

But that's until they introduce other villains and stop making them one-shots. Until then Eggman's all we have as far as a recurring villain...unless you want to make use of Eggman Nega that is?

 

 

If we're basing this on who the people argue about when it comes to being a protagonist, then its ultimately superfluous because people argue regardless, hell you're arguing right now with Electrokyruem about Eggman being all that iconic. If that's the case, saying Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, & Eggman are the "main" characters is just as valid as the statement you're trying to claim that Sonic & Eggman are the only "main" characters.

 

Who the "main" character is ultimately depends on the plot in question; Sonic however still is The Hero of the series(I.e. the most important good guy and one to most likely take action against the villains), and Eggman still is the Big Bad(I.e. the one that generally starts the problems that the hero must solve) but neither of those roles puts them above everyone else because Sonic isn't the only hero, and Eggman isn't the only villain(Or at least he shouldn't be), they're just the most prominent. 

Edited August 28, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If we're basing this on who the people argue about when it comes to being a protagonist, then its ultimately superfluous because people argue regardless, hell you're arguing right now with Electrokyruem about Eggman being all that iconic. If that's the case, saying Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, & Eggman are the "main" characters is just as valid as the statement you're trying to claim that Sonic & Eggman are the only "main" characters.

And people argue because they favor these characters over others, this clashing of interest leading to the bickering between the cast of characters. Electrokyruem wanted to know why I had Eggman alongside Sonic, and I gave him the answer of being antagonist that causes the conflict and an iconic one to boot, not because I favor him and want him to reap the benefits in growing as an antagonist over other antagonists. Hence the reason I set it up that way in the first place, so that any other characters can have better shots at growing into other roles in their own degrees of prominence without being blocked off by other characters and the interests of the fans.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Jet Prower]

Wow people, didn't realize this would get rather worked up on this topic. To me, if you just want more people to be in the game without taking too much away, as someone else said, just make the other characters that are playable, be optional. You dont have to ever play them to complete the game and better yet, it can be a bonus for finishing the game. Like, Sonic is only person playable at the start, but unlock other characters after beating the game once or with other characters. You add much needed replaybility, but allow other characters to be playable in the levels. The extra characters are you just going through the levels again with them in old school form, while going through as Sonic has all the story mode stuff along with it and the other characters participating in the story as well. That sounds simple to me.

 

As for other villians, yes they should have other villians other than Eggman if they can pull it off. The comics had pulled this off many times with recurring or new villians from time to time other than just Eggman and it usually worked just fine, but Eggman was still the main focus over all usually. Other villians would work if they could take the time to do so. The series needs a bit more depth in the game universe anyway, and that would be an interesting twist for Sonic to think its once again Eggman and in fact it isn't.

[Kuzu]

And people argue because they favor these characters over others, this clashing of interest leading to the bickering between the cast of characters. Electrokyruem wanted to know why I had Eggman alongside Sonic, and I gave him the answer of being antagonist that causes the conflict and an iconic one to boot, not because I favor him and want him to reap the benefits in growing as an antagonist. Hence the reason I set it up that way in the first place, so that any other characters can have better shots at growing into other roles in their own degrees of prominence without being blocked off by other characters.

Saying he's "iconic" is already showing favoritism. All of the characters are iconic in some way, I think Knuckles is iconic yet, according to your logic, he's not as "iconic" as Sonic or Eggman, but then I ask, who decides who's more iconic? You can't claim that the likes of Tails, Knuckles, & Amy can't be main characters because of how people are biased in their favor, but then say Eggman is important because he's "iconic". 

 

As for your second point, I agree Eggman is the main instigator of the trouble which would justify your claim, but then before you said that Eggman can be swapped out should another villain take center stage. The second another villain comes onto the scene, Eggman isn't the sole Big Bad anymore because he's either not a villain at all, or sharing the role with the other. Therefore, you can't claim he's still the most prominent character because his role as primary Big Bad is being contested.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Saying he's "iconic" is already showing favoritism. All of the characters are iconic in some way, I think Knuckles is iconic yet, according to your logic, he's not as "iconic" as Sonic or Eggman, but then I ask, who decides who's more iconic? You can't claim that the likes of Tails, Knuckles, & Amy can't be main characters because of how people are biased in their favor, but then say Eggman is important because he's "iconic". 

Well, see that's the problem, because I don't believe an icon shows favoritism nor is that what an icon is. I see an icon as a symbol that represents something, in Eggman's case he represents the villain. Hell, that's it's definition i'm reading right now.

 

And if you're going to go by "icon=favorite" by that logic, everyone's an icon. But according to my logic, Sonic is an icon for a hero and Eggman an icon for a villain, not icons for people to favor over others. Sure it has to be well-known, but as far as what people favor, I couldn't care less.

Edited August 28, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Kuzu]

Well, see that's the problem, because I don't believe an icon shows favoritism nor is that what an icon is. I see an icon as a symbol that represents something, in Eggman's case he represents the villain. Hell, that's it's definition i'm reading right now.

 

And if you're going to go by "icon=favorite" by that logic, everyone's an icon. But according to my logic, Sonic is an icon for a hero and Eggman an icon for a villain, not icons for people to favor over others. Sure it has to be well-known, but as far as what people favor, I couldn't care less.

Ok, so what's stopping me from saying that Tails is an icon that represents the hero's closest companion? Knuckles for guarding the world's most powerful object? and Amy for her passionate heart and charisma to turn bad guys good?

Edited August 28, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu