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Story Discussion: Is world conquest too low-stakes these days?


Dr. Mechano

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Looking at Sonic's reaction to Tails being controlled in Colors, it's obvious you can snap him out of his calm, snarky demeanor if you kick things up a notch. The best way to address Eggman's villain decay would be for him to essentially have what we call a "shit just got real" moment. As it stands he's got the same old scheme, same old robots, same old speeches, and he rarely breaks out of this mold to show he's a threat, rather than a punching bag.

If Eggman genuinely threatened Sonic's friends, on the other hand... where's the murder attempts? The physical harm? Etc.

I think the world domination plot is fine by itself, it's just Eggman doesn't usually show much of serious side. He's seen by Sonic and friends as a joke as much as Neo Cortex is by Crash Bandicoot and his buddies.

Heck, here's one that remains safe for kids. Show the remains of a few towns he's completely destroyed. He's got armies of airships, robots, etc. but where's the DESTRUCTION? It's a way to amplify his threat level that doesn't involve harming the main cast. You can infer all the death, pain and misery he causes by proxy, however, and it suddenly makes him that much scarier. Sonic and friends don't need to worry about him, because they have a means to fight back; ordinary people, on the other hand, are screwed.

Disney movies are all the proof you need you CAN insert death and the like into the background to advance the plot, without having it dominate the story. Consider, for example, the Huns in Mulan; it's pretty obvious they're ruthless killers who have already slaughtered countless people, and yet the tone of the movie isn't overwhelmingly dark at all.

Edited by Ogil.exe Maurice
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I have to agree with all the others here. I think Eggman still is a good villain and that there is nothing wrong with world domination, but they are being too light hearted about it and making it not seem like a big deal anymore. Sonic doesn't take it serious,  because Eggman doesn't seem to be putting too much effort into it and thus we don't think of it as dangerous enough to warrant being taken seriously enough and you can see that in how Sonic seems so casual about it.

 

There just needs to be a bit of an intensity boost is all. You can be a little dark and make there be some consequences to where the threat level seems higher and that you and Sonic need to kick it into gear or something bad may happen. When Sonic can clearly see something is in danger, you can easily see how he kicks up the seriousness immediately. Things have just been too lighthearted for awhile to where people just see Eggman as a goofball instead of a serious threat. Just let Eggman kick up the seriousness a bit. He doesn't have a bit a cold blooded murderer like he has been in archie comics in the past, but let there be some more bad things happening and have Eggman doing more than just waiting for Sonic to get to him.

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If you did, can you please spoiler tag them out of respect for those just getting the game?

 

EDIT: Thanks, Ninja Nepenthe!

Edited by Satan Attaxx
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Honestly world domination isn't that much lower on the scale than world destruction (or similar apocalyptic scenarios), if you play it the right way. A sufficiently intimidating and powerful dictator taking control is still the end of the world as we know it. And I think it can feel like a much more immediate threat than "world goes boom" or "spacetime is torn a new one"...the absolute scale of an event isn't necessarily what resonates with people, it's usually the effects on a more human scale that feel compelling (on that note, in a way I find the NPC reactions in Unleashed kind of realistic; the world splitting apart doesn't directly affect them, and it's something too big and too far away to really process, so they go about life like normal).

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Honestly world domination isn't that much lower on the scale than world destruction (or similar apocalyptic scenarios), if you play it the right way.

I'd actually go so far to say world domination isn't that much lower than simply saving a floating island or a city if games like S3&K and SA1 are anything to say. They don't take you beyond regions, yet they have some of the highest stakes this series has felt.

 

Which is ironic where ShTH has a whole alien invasion, yet despite its stakes it comes off as nothing to worry about presumably because we pretty much could guess where the ending was gonna go.

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Which is ironic where ShTH has a whole alien invasion, yet despite its stakes it comes off as nothing to worry about presumably because we pretty much could guess where the ending was gonna go.

And because it's an established fact that the worst possible consequence for completely destroying an airborne escape vessel is giving the passengers a mild headache.

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Lost World spoilers:

 

So, what do you guys think of Lost World, as it relates to this topic?

Make sure you respond in spoiler tags, of course.

 

As for me, I thought it was the perfect blend of SA2's darkness and Colors' whimsy. Eggman was the main antagonist, but we saw him plot, plan, and sneak his way into that position over the course of the game. This is a bit more complex and better-explained than Generations, where the monster was just Eggman all along.

 

In Lost World, Eggman's original plan (Control the Zeti, conquer the world) was ruined after the second world, forcing him to improvise a new plan on the fly - That plan being to have Sonic do the dirty work of neutralizing the Zeti, so that Eggman could still harness his machine's energy. The result is that A.) The Zeti and their pesky machine-controlling powers are out of the way, and B.) Eggman's able to power up a brand new, world-conquering mech to take over what's left of his planet. In this way, his teaming up with Sonic and even saving his foe's life make sense, and add to the brilliance of his plan. He went from being alone with no Badniks or boss mechs, to regaining control of his entire operation through sheer cleverness rather than brute force.

 

This is how you do a "Hijacked by Eggman" storyline.

Edited by Count Mechano
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Lost World was pretty fantastic on the 'conniving and active Eggman' front. It's glorious to see him investing more gravity in his plans.

 

Also, it's cool to note that when he tests the life-sucking machine on the planet the first time, he actually tells Orbot to shut it off before it goes into overdrive because it was certainly not his intention to leave the world completely barren. So I suppose he only wanted some power to dominate the world and wasn't intending to ruin the planet.

 

It's another instance of him not exactly dying to reap destruction for the hell of it and is making use of a fraction of the planet's power for self-serving needs and not for the evulz.

 

His opportunisticness was certainly befitting of a man with a 300IQ and I totally agree Mechano, this is exactly how to have Eggman act in a situation like that. Don't see how it could've been better written than that.

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Well, it's always Sonic&World VS. Eggman all the time. What if Eggman actually gained a bunch of human supporters in-game that wants to destroy the world too? 

While I'm not opposed to the idea of Eggman getting some support (and I don't find the idea too unrealistic; Worse people in real life have their fringe supporters), remember that Eggman wants to conquer the world, not destroy it. He can't very well have an Eggman Empire if there's nothing left to rule over, after all.

Edited by Count Mechano
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I'm actually surprised Eggman hasn't gone into a more quasi-legal business by this point. Though I do assume he has front corporations to fund his operations; it goes without saying even his low-end technology would be eagerly licked up by world governments. When we consider RL governments spend trillions of dollars on weaponry, he's got things in the bag profit-wise. It would also explain the ineffectiveness of the world militaries against him - it's kinda hard to beat the guy who's secretly been your supplier.

 

Though Eggman going into politics would be an interesting development, especially if he won. I've no idea how he'd build enough of an image to do so (though he could just rig the election), but the fact is Sonic would need to find a new way to fight him; he'd come off as the bad guy if he tried to overthrow a democratically-elected leader. And I'm sure Eggman wouldn't hesitate to rub that in his face, either. Since Eggman has the resources of a government himself based on the size of his fleets and bases, he could very easily woo the population to love him through personal charity. Sonic now has the problem of defeating Eggman not only on the battlefield, but in the hearts and minds of the very people who were once his own supporters.

Edited by Ogil.exe Maurice
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Add GUN into the mix and things could get really interesting. No doubt GUN would easily side with Sonic, what with Eggman fucking their shit up multiple times, and they certainly would be skeptical of someone who's attempted world domination multiple times.

 

GUN backing Sonic would be interesting as now Sonic has a superpower by his side, but that could cause far more tension with other people that Eggman may win over.

 

Fun to think about. The closest we get to this is in the Archie comics tho, but here he's not really winning people over than he is forcing them to comply.

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That means that Sonic not only has to win over Eggman. He also has to convince the Egg.D.L that their goal might not be the right one after all. That takes some wit and diplomacy that might work within Sonics psyche.

Diplomacy, because that's something I desperately want in a Sonic game...
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Yes, can't have that in fiction, because fictional diplomacy is such a bad thing to have around in a Sonic narrative...rolleyes.gif

Edited by CreepySpiritSonic
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Well...yeah!

 

World conquest is always fun, but when it becomes more personal (Like mind-controlled Tails) it means more to Sonic than the far away threat of conquest...

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I just don't see much entertainment coming from Sonic trying to convince people that Eggman is, in fact, actually the bad guy. It's...kind of obvious.

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I just don't see much entertainment coming from Sonic trying to convince people that Eggman is, in fact, actually the bad guy. It's...kind of obvious.

Pretty much this. Once you release a chaotic water god on a planet, threaten to blast the planet with a giant laser cannon and then actually blast the planet with a giant laser cannon, it's pretty obvious that you aren't a good guy.

Edited by Straw Hat
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I'm actually surprised Eggman hasn't gone into a more quasi-legal business by this point. Though I do assume he has front corporations to fund his operations; it goes without saying even his low-end technology would be eagerly licked up by world governments. When we consider RL governments spend trillions of dollars on weaponry, he's got things in the bag profit-wise. It would also explain the ineffectiveness of the world militaries against him - it's kinda hard to beat the guy who's secretly been your supplier.

 

Though Eggman going into politics would be an interesting development, especially if he won. I've no idea how he'd build enough of an image to do so (though he could just rig the election), but the fact is Sonic would need to find a new way to fight him; he'd come off as the bad guy if he tried to overthrow a democratically-elected leader. And I'm sure Eggman wouldn't hesitate to rub that in his face, either. Since Eggman has the resources of a government himself based on the size of his fleets and bases, he could very easily woo the population to love him through personal charity. Sonic now has the problem of defeating Eggman not only on the battlefield, but in the hearts and minds of the very people who were once his own supporters.

I imagine a version of Eggman where he plays the role of a foolish egomaniac who is in reality a manipulative glorious bastard who secretly sells super technology to warmongers, and then takes advantage of the chaos to promote himself as a well meaning messiah figure who fights against the oppressive tyrants, even though in reality he is a self serving narcissist who loves to feel like he is the savior of the world even as his reckless experiments result in disastrous consequences to people he doesn't particularly care for.

Edited by Wonder ED
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Eh, I don't see Sonic being preoccupied with other peoples' allegiances. Sonic certainly doesn't try to reform Eggman's robots, and I doubt he'd try to change the minds of any living supporters either. He'd just treat them as henchmen, i.e., the enemy (see how he acted toward Shadow and Rouge in SA2, for instance).

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I just don't see much entertainment coming from Sonic trying to convince people that Eggman is, in fact, actually the bad guy. It's...kind of obvious.

Pretty much this. Once you release a chaotic water god on a planet, threaten to blast the planet with a giant laser cannon and then actually blast the planet with a giant laser cannon, it's pretty obvious that you aren't a good guy.

Because its just not possible to have Eggman fool people into thinking he's good by having him do good things for the world to change people's views and make the plot about trying to expose the truth. Or even paint Sonic as a bad guy to the public to make Eggman look good.

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Because its just not possible to have Eggman fool people into thinking he's good by having him do good things for the world to change people's views and make the plot about trying to expose the truth. Or even paint Sonic as a bad guy to the public to make Eggman look good.

I thought the point was to have people who agreed with Eggman's usual doings, not Eggman pretending to be good.

And even if it was, the interesting parts of that wouldn't be diplomacy.

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Sonic is not the type of character to try and resolve things diplomatically; he acts first and thinks later and takes on everything head on.If someone decided to side with Eggman, I'm pretty sure he'd fight them all the same.

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I thought the point was to have people who agreed with Eggman's usual doings, not Eggman pretending to be good.

It could be either. It's all a part of whatever Eggman has planned at that moment.

And even if it was, the interesting parts of that wouldn't be diplomacy.

You're awfully quick to shoot down the thought of what the interesting parts would be over thinking about how to make something like diplomacy interesting, because like everything else it's only as interesting as you can make it. Like trying to expose Lex Luthor's activities as he tries becoming president or something along those lines.

Sonic is not the type of character to try and resolve things diplomatically; he acts first and thinks later and takes on everything head on.If someone decided to side with Eggman, I'm pretty sure he'd fight them all the same.

And you know what you can do with that attitude? Get Sonic in trouble with the rest of the world for being so rash and impulsive. Edited by CreepySpiritSonic
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You're awfully quick to shoot down the thought of what the interesting parts would be over thinking about how to make something like diplomacy interesting, because like everything else it's only as interesting as you can make it. Like trying to expose Lex Luthor's activities as he tries becoming president or something along those lines.

The interesting parts about exposing a supposedly reformed villain as not actually reformed, in any sort of action-based series, would involve snooping around, digging up dirt on them, and exposing it to the masses. Not trying to convince people diplomatically.

And you know what you can do with that attitude? Get Sonic in trouble with the rest of the world for being so rash and impulsive.

AKA interesting things and not sitting around and talking about it.
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