Lost World: Discussion, Impressions and Fan Reviews

[JezMM]

For me it's just the difference between everything feeling like a flowing, real place, despite REALLY being an obstacle course set up for my enjoyment.  Colours and Lost World LOOK like obstacle courses.

 

 

Unleashed and Generations have cool sort of "contexts" to their paths.  Like you either go along the rooftops or smash through this house or run along the side of the building.  In Lost World it's more like "you take Path 1 or Path 2 or Path 3", there's no cool feeling of rebellion to taking routes.  It's really hard to describe (though it is something that only really the 3D games have ever done, I'm sure Lost World holds a "going back to basics" feel for many).

[Blue Blood]

If it makes any sense, with SU/SG it feels like they designed the level layouts with a theme in mind, and then designed the scenery around those layouts. Comparatively, with SC/SLW it's more like they designed some more basic layouts first and then went about filling them with objects. It's kind of hard to describe, but fortunately such comparison pictures from SU's development exist to help:

 

Now I don't know how Sonic Team actually go about designing the levels for their games, but hopefully you understand what I mean when I try to describe what it feels like.

[Diogenes]

Maybe the reason that complaint has never moved me is because whenever I play the bottom picture, it feels like I might as well be playing the top...

[JezMM]

It is sort of humbling to see this beautiful landscape revealed to just be two tiny bridges in terms of playability.

 

I guess I just really buy into the fiction of the game world with Unleashed and Generations.  Much like when you play BioShock or something, you don't look out into the beautiful expanse of scenery and think "those buildings are just 2D images" "that corridor that just collapsed had nothing around the corner because I'm not meant to go there", you think "I'm in Rapture"  "oh shit guess I'm not going that way".

 

Even after all these years, I still feel like within the fiction of the game, Sonic could go anywhere, but for the sake of the level, he goes here here and here.  With Colours you're either on a non-sensical landmass in the foreground, or invisible walls stop you about 10 feet before the scenery that could easily serve the same purpose.  And in Lost World everything is on floating planetoids so Sonic ain't going anywhere but here.

 

 

More freedom (but focused freedom) will always be better, but I still think Unleashed handled the illusion of freedom well enough for me to enjoy it.

[Milo]

 

Way to spoil the final boss for people who haven't played the game, SEGA

 

Not like there will be anyone that's going to buy the game now anyways, due to the PS4/Xbone/3D World launch and the fact that this game had it's asshole ripped to shreds by critics and fans.

[Blue Blood]

Not like there will be anyone that's going to buy the game now anyways, due to the PS4/Xbone/3D World launch and the fact that this game had it's asshole ripped to shreds by critics and fans.

That was sarcasm- it's not even the final boss, just a random bonus.

[Soniman]

Not like there will be anyone that's going to buy the game now anyways, due to the PS4/Xbone/3D World launch and the fact that this game had it's asshole ripped to shreds by critics and fans.

 

I don't think the former would matter at all to someone interested in the game ("I'm not buying this game because the PS4 is out!")…..the later reasons sure..

[MegasonicZX]

Gotta admit, even though I love this game to bits, it really makes you question why for a lot of things, why did sonic need to turn into a snowball for that one level, why is that stage in desert ruins an autoscroller instead of just getting the heck away from it as fast as you can, why is skyroad basically level themes that we had in the first 2 levels with only one level actually being fitting to the name, why do the deadly six want to conquer the world, why weren't there more of those tornado stages like the one in the hidden world put in at points of the game instead, and my god sega why the heck did we need a REVERSE TIMER instead of normal timer like we had in the games before it doesn't make any sense.

[Milo]

That was sarcasm- it's not even the final boss, just a random bonus.

 

I know.

[SuperLink]

Hmm since I started talking about it in the Status Bar I guess I'll expand my thoughts here somewhat because I don't wanna send mixed messages I guess. Also keep in mind that I haven't even finished the game (I doubt my opinion will change when I do), I haven't touched it for a while due to the shock of the disappointment!! Before release people might remember me as one of the people who was quickest to defend the direction they were going and stuff because somehow I was convinced it'd be great .. and while I'll probably still defend the direction, yeah just read on I guess.

 

As mentioned I have probably never been so disappointed in a Sonic game before, I feel like this is my first real experience of the Sonic Cycle, especially since journalists hyped it up so much! My own fault for falling for it, I know, but why did people who had played it make it sound like Sonic was saved? Christ.

 

But Lost World isn't really a bad game, it has tons of great ideas hidden behind stupid design choices and shameless imitations. Yeah, while I initially thought "hey it's not copying Mario-" yeah it is, playing it made that much more obvious, Sonic tried too hard to copy Mario and didn't even do it right (mostly the gravity thing, but also level tropes in general).

 

There are soo many ways Lost World could be easily improved and turned into something great, which is why I will continue to defend the direction it's going in unless the next game turns out even worse (fingers crossed)

 

The parkour mechanic feels LOVELY when it's done right. The hugest problem with it and every other new mechanic is that the game does a HORRIBLE job of explaining how to do it, how everything works, the tutorial buttons are so out of the way that you have to STOP DEAD and check the Gamepad incase it tells you anything useful (and usually it doesn't). When you introduce a fresh mechanic that isn't immediately obvious to use by randomly playing with the controller (we don't live in an era where you can do everything with 2 buttons anymore, Lost World least of all) a good, comfortable but not too intrusive or patronising tutorial is paramount, that's game design 101 jfc and Sonic Team completely failed at game design 101 congrats Sonic Team. I don't know which part of them decided that just because we don't need a jumping tutorial must also mean we don't want a tutorial for how to run and jump across walls suspended above death pits.

 

Another thing, lives. Times have changed since the NES days where dying in one hit was normal. If a game is going to throw random cheap events at you that kill you and you have no idea they're coming until you're already dead, said game should probably not have a life system at all. Case in point, Rayman Origins and Legends. Has a lot of trial and error based gameplay but does so with finesse because you have infinite lives and you can retry the bit as many times as you like very quickly, seamlessly! For some reason, Sonic Team decided to make it easier than ever to suffer a bottomless pit death AND make lives harder to come by than previous Sonic games. Not sure why they thought this was "fun"! Another important point to game design, enjoyability is paramount, challenge and frustration do not go hand in hand, if your game design is more frustrating than the gained reward can suppress then you fucked up.

 

But man positives, Sonic Lost World has some really cool mechanics! A run button is a great idea, a spindash button is a great idea, and parkour is a fantastic idea! It also feels fantastic when it works. The problem is that running doesn't build momentum, and platforming sections can be very difficult when you can barely jump far at all from a standing position and holding the run button to do a running jump barely ever does anything. If it were up to me, I'd say ditch the gravity gimmick and have Sonic's movement heavily based on gaining momentum like the "classics". Spindash doesn't even do it that badly, when you jump in spindash you keep going, you can go pretty far! That's exactly what I want to see, but I want to feel like going down hills makes me go faster and I need speed to get up hills, and I want running to not slow down every time I turn around. If I'm Sonic and I'm parkouring around the universe I want to feel like the most free motherfucker in all of freedom. I CAN RUN SO FAST, AND RUN OVER ALL THESE WALLS, EFFORTLESSLY, AND IT FEELS AMAZING. That's what Sonic Lost World /could/ be.

 

And speaking of freedom and turning that brings me clumsily to my last point.

 

Don't make a game that supposedly emphasises multiple routes and explorability if the camera is only ever facing forward. Because jesus christ some of these stages have genuinely interesting multi-layered designs and I /want/ to explore it all but the game won't let me look backwards!!

 

See what I mean? There is all the potential in SLW's mechanics and formula for a fantastic game, the perfect 3D Sonic even, but dumb design, bottomless pits, Marioing everywhere, too much insta-death, no rewarding feeling of speed, and freedom-restricting camera, stop Lost World from being a World full of Lost things to find and instead makes it a World that you think should get Lost. (because you would rather use these mechanics someplace else.)

 

Sonic isn't Mario, floating above bottomless pits game design doesn't work hand in hand with speed, and neither do enemies that kill you in one hit out of nowhere work hand in hand with having lives. Make multilayered explorable stages without bottomless pits, just bottom layers and higher layers like Sonic 1-3. Lovely. Beautiful. It's not /that/ hard to avoid bottomless pits in stage design.

 

Fix pls. Make rly good game next. I know u can do it.

[PSI Wind]

I swear, I'm the /only/ one who absolutely loves this game.

[Soniman]

I swear, I'm the /only/ one who absolutely loves this game.

 

I like the game quite a bit to. But it does have a tons of small (and heck, a few major), easily fixable issues that could have been fixable to make a much more pleasant and overall greater quality experience

[MegasonicZX]

Something thats been kind of bugging me for ahile but where were the cheap deaths in this game? I see a lot of people mention it and I didn't really notice much in the game that you could consider out of nowhere (except for that enemy placement in silent forect act 3) everything else was pretty fair game (yes that includes the bomb karts).

 

But onto your point superlink, yeah there are a good amount of things that this game could improve on to make the next game a perfect experience and to add on I think this game was a good way for sega to look at what will work and what won't, hopefully they take the parkour and some other elements from this game and add them into the next game.

 

Edit: I also really like this game, its very hard to put down when I get going.

[SuperLink]

I'll admit that most of the cheap enemy placement revolves around bottomless pits (the gravity doesn't help, sometimes jumping up near an edge you'd expect to land back on the ledge, but nope thanks to the awkward gravity it thinks you want to FALL LEFT right off the ledge) Sonic's speed and the halfpipe gravity don't mix unless you remove pits completely.

 

Then there are stages like the infamous grinding stage where crashing into a cart can kill you, or drill wisp or rocket wisp knocking you into another bottomless pit because of awkward controls or stage design.

 

And remember those huge caterkillers in the desert? One hit kills, and you aren't always supposed to know when they're appearing. The only amazing games with cheap-ass out-of-nowhere kills like that are games where you have infinite lives like rayman or vvvvvv. Otherwise they're a genuine hindrance to the experience. Games with really good design make it very obvious when a 1 hit enemy is going to appear, have plenty of checkpoints, and teach you the mechanics of that enemy in relative safety earlier on so that you can learn from this. There are more examples of cheaply placed enemies but cheap deaths mostly revolve around too many bottomless pits - again, remove the life system completely and add more regular checkpoints, an easy improvement.

 

I swear, I'm the /only/ one who absolutely loves this game.

You aren't, but denying a game's flaws is also denying yourself the possibility of an easily superior experience.

 

I enjoy the game, but it wasn't what I was hoping for, hence disappointment.

[MegasonicZX]

I'll admit that most of the cheap enemy placement revolves around bottomless pits (the gravity doesn't help, sometimes jumping up near an edge you'd expect to land back on the ledge, but nope thanks to the awkward gravity it thinks you want to FALL LEFT right off the ledge) Sonic's speed and the halfpipe gravity don't mix unless you remove pits completely.

 

Then there are stages like the infamous grinding stage where crashing into a cart can kill you, or drill wisp or rocket wisp knocking you into another bottomless pit because of awkward controls or stage design.

 

And remember those huge caterkillers in the desert? One hit kills, and you aren't always supposed to know when they're appearing. The only amazing games with cheap-ass out-of-nowhere kills like that are games where you have infinite lives like rayman or vvvvvv. Otherwise they're a genuine hindrance to the experience. Games with really good design make it very obvious when a 1 hit enemy is going to appear, have plenty of checkpoints, and teach you the mechanics of that enemy in relative safety earlier on so that you can learn from this. There are more examples of cheaply placed enemies but cheap deaths mostly revolve around too many bottomless pits.

 

You aren't, but denying a game's flaws is also denying yourself the possibility of an easily superior experience.

 

I enjoy the game, but it wasn't what I was hoping for, hence disappointment.

There are 1 hit caterkillers in the desert? Are you talking about the sandworms cause I don't think any of the caterkillers killed me in one hit and if you are talking about the sandworms, yeah they are one hit kills but only if your above there mouth when they come up and even then, they telegraph themselves early before coming up so you can move in the area where they are not coming up.

[SuperLink]

There are 1 hit caterkillers in the desert? Are you talking about the sandworms cause I don't think any of the caterkillers killed me in one hit and if you are talking about the sandworms, yeah they are one hit kills but only if your above there mouth when they come up and even then, they telegraph themselves early before coming up so you can move in the area where they are not coming up.

Yeah the sandworms derp. And their telegraphing is subtle enough that you don't notice it unless you already know the layout of the stage  up ahead because you can easily have no idea where the next ledge will be or which one you SHOULD jump to - which adds to my previous point. Games based on trial-and-error are fine but if a game design wants to rely heavily on trial-and-error gameplay it needs to get rid of lives altogether and have more regular checkpoints.

[Blue Blood]

Cheap deaths? Any of the games many insta-kills, many in the form of bottomless pits that you struggle to avoid because Sonic won't move enough in the air for absolutely no reason. This was a particular issue in Silent Forest 2 and 4. Or perhaps because the game is trying to make you use parkour or colour powers than don't work properly and haven't been explained to you.

 

@ Super Link

 

I read your post in full and... I dunno. I can't agree with it very much. I think that what Lost World tries to do on a gameplay front sounds MUCH better on paper than how it actually works in reality.Or at least, how it's executed. Parkour is a really good in theory, but it was implemented in a terribly way in this game. From cumbersome controls with near-total a lack of any explanation, to poor implementation  into level design, to the rigid and slow movement that only works on flat surfaces, I feel they couldn't have gotten it more wrong.

 

Saying things like "just make it momentum based" is a huge undertaking that I think lots of people here don't give much of a thought. And that's pretty much the route of Lost World's problems. "Oh, well just fix this few things and it'll be fine!". That's not the case. The problems are very deep-rooted. Some things can be fixed up in an instant (see the patch) but most others require a complete reworking. That's why I think that Lost World is best described as a very big misstep. It has many of the right ideas, pulled off in the worst way.

 

That's just gameplay, anyway. I shan't bother touching the other elements for the time being.

[SuperLink]

I read your post in full and... I dunno. I can't agree with it very much. I think that what Lost World tries to do on a gameplay front sounds MUCH better on paper than how it actually works in reality.Or at least, how it's executed. Parkour is a really good in theory, but it was implemented in a terribly way in this game. From cumbersome controls with near-total a lack of any explanation, to poor implementation  into level design, to the rigid and slow movement that only works on flat surfaces, I feel they couldn't have gotten it more wrong.

 

Saying things like "just make it momentum based" is a huge undertaking that I think lots of people here don't give much of a thought. And that's pretty much the route of Lost World's problems. "Oh, well just fix this few things and it'll be fine!". That's not the case. The problems are very deep-rooted. Some things can be fixed up in an instant (see the patch) but most others require a complete reworking. That's why I think that Lost World is best described as a very big misstep. It has many of the right ideas, pulled off in the worst way.

Lost World's problems though are mostly in design. Besides that it just needs fine-tuning. I know that making it all momentum based would be very hard to do in development, but there already is momentum-based movement in the game, the snowball, the pinball, even Sonic spindashing are all done with momentum-based movement, there's nothing stopping them from tweaking that in future games.

 

Sonic Unleashed, Colours and Generations all worked differently in terms of mechanics. When I say "oh just fix these and it'll be fine!" I mean that if you ask me there really isn't much stopping them from making tweaks to the game mechanics and overhauling the design.

 

Design is not locked to a game engine, there's absolutely nothing about Lost World's game design that can't be rectified in another game. Tutorials, stage design and cheap deaths, all of its major failures are design-based. Parkour isn't horrible, just horribly explained, and Colours and Generations are proof that the game core game mechanics can be changed around to be made more comfortable. Colours added a double jump where Unleashed didn't have one at all, Generations and Colours both did Super Sonic totally differently too.

 

I think you're overestimating how much tweaking would be needed to make SLW a more comfortable experience. The core elements of momentum movement and acceleration already exist within the game and Sonic's whole movement doesn't need to be based off it. The fact that Sonic 4 Ep2 managed to heavily improve over Ep1 in terms of momentum too means it's not impossible using a very similar game engine - and in the end Sonic 4 Ep2's main faults were just stage design rather than the game mechanics which were pretty ok but people initially assumed were unsalvageable.

 

I know Sonic 4 and SLW are very different games but it's clear that they put way more effort into SLW. Do you have any examples of mechanics that you think are total dead-ends or why they are? (besides Wisps they can go)

[MegasonicZX]

Yeah the sandworms derp. And their telegraphing is subtle enough that you don't notice it unless you already know the layout of the stage  up ahead because you can easily have no idea where the next ledge will be or which one you SHOULD jump to - which adds to my previous point. Games based on trial-and-error are fine but if a game design wants to rely heavily on trial-and-error gameplay it needs to get rid of lives altogether and have more regular checkpoints.

They stay at the bottom of the screen for at least 3 seconds and another 2 seconds before they pop back out, ample time to react to it unless your reflexes aren't up to snuff (not saying that your reflexes are just pointing it out) and compared to something like rayman origins, its a lot more fair.

 

Also, I know its late since I forgot to comment on it but the bomb carts in LM2 aren't necessarily cheap cause yeah they are instant death traps but you can see them coming well before you actually run into them and by that point in the stage you are well trained enough to jump over the carts because of the mine carts before it while not being instant death did damage you so your first instinct would be to jump over them and yeah some of them do require some precise jumping but its nothing that is asking too much of the player. 

[Dizcrybe]

I dunno, I kinda enjoy the parkour. It's satisfying when you can successfully jump from wall to wall or figure out how to turn corners.

 

Anyway, good to know at least one other person enjoys the game.

[Blue Blood]

I like Lost World too. I'm actually playing through the story for a second time as we speak. But I don't want to see another game like it. With it's excessive shortcomings, all it's achieved is making we want top-tier Sonic game even more and something more like SA1/SA2/06 in what it tries to offer gameplay wise (to varying degrees of success).

[Fletch]

I swear, I'm the /only/ one who absolutely loves this game.

I love the game... I'm just mostly silent and never voice my opinion much.

[Soniman]

I dunno, I kinda enjoy the parkour. It's satisfying when you can successfully jump from wall to wall or figure out how to turn corners.

 

Anyway, good to know at least one other person enjoys the game.

 

This. To me, all the cool parkour shit I pulled off on my own in the levels are way more satisfying then all the cinematic moments in the boost era to me. Not saying they can't go hand in hand but with all the rough edges of the parkour id love to see more of it.

[Blue Blood]

I rarely find the parkour to be satisfying. But the spin dash is incredibly satisfying and fun, even if it's basically a nerfed boost.

[azoo]

I think SuperLink has his heart in the right place with what he thinks about the gameplay and how it should control, but it is also true that it's problem is the execution, all the way to the very basics.

Sonic is jerky, twitches around at instantaneous speeds, has a 50% chance of losing at least half his speed from the slightest misturn, has one too many abilities that do nothing useful or really necessary, shows little regard for the mechanics that made Sonic what he is, and has some gameplay quirks that even if you were taught them make no sense.*

Were the ideas good? Absolutely! Heck, even the game isn't half-bad to play, it's dang good fun in some levels, even with it's flaws. Its just hard to tell if Sega will learn from their mis-steps or not since they'll usually take the overarching complaint and overshoot so far towards that that they don't even get what the problem was in the first place.

* - A big example of what I mean by this is jumping out of a wall run. Do you know how annoying it is to try to do that really satisfying super-jump you do off a wall while running but only just do that speed-killing BOOP up instead? Apparently you have to hold the opposite direction while wall running (what) to do that big leap move. But I mean... why???

 

EDIT: And even then, I just saw SuperLink's response to what Blue Blood said just now and I agree completely with it, too. What am I, who am I, what am I doing with my life, help.