About choosing when to snark when you're the authority

[Nepenthe]

Not sure if I am doing the right thing by moving this here, but here we go. -Diz

 

Please or scroll down to the next post.

 

If this topic hadn't been focused on Hoggy's sarcasm, then I imagine it would be a bit more positive on its own merits because that was probably the best trailer for the game ever. Just a bit more sound editing and it would've been perfect.

 

--

 

Staff members are not paid professionals, much less automatons. We are ultimately normal members with one or two extra voluntary responsibilities, and said responsibilities do not place us on a higher standard in terms of merely giving our opinion. We can be a little snarky within reason, just like the rest of you. I see no reason to go after Hogfather for a remark that was ultimately banal, especially when it proceeds to go off topic. This is about the announcement trailer, not this sudden code of conduct you're imposing on us.

 

--

 

I didn't say you were telling him how to think. I said you're imposing a code of conduct on us by way of telling us that the announcements we make "should" be neutral, under the assumption that this doesn't give regular members the ability to form their own opinions (hint: this isn't the case at all, because as much as I blab about Unleashed's greatness, most people don't give a shit what I think of it. 8P). Staff in the past have announced games and gaming news on the forum with the use of blatant sarcasm and animated gifs. That is the actual precedent; non-neutral reporting, and I don't see any underlying reason why we should change that simply because we are indeed staff. The only reason I can think that HF's post would be a particular problem now is because Lost World is getting critically hammered a little more than some people would've liked, thus any sarcasm for the time being is going to be considered rubbing salt in the wound.

 

How can I be imposing anything when I have absolutely no power in this situation other than my words? And calling my commenter snide or leading definitely seems to be applying the intent of malice, when I have made a personal effort to make it clear that this was not my intention.

I'd disagree about the sarcastic comments and whatnot not doing a lot to inform discussion. I've seen it happen a lot on many forums outside of the fandom; digimon, Transformers come to mind.

 

 

One doesn't have to wield power over another to impose an ideal on them. Imposing also inherently means to act is one has authority, to intrude or thrust one's self upon someone, to tell them what to do, and this holds without regard for whom is doing the telling and their power in relation to their audience. In this case, you have continually said that we "should" be neutral in making announcement topics on the forum without any regard for how we've traditionally done things. Thus you're imposing yourself on staffers.

 

Overall, if you would like to continue this discussion, you should either privately get in touch with administration or start a new topic in Member Feedback forum about how staffers should create announcement topics; again, this particular topic is not the place for it. This is about the launch trailer.

 

Merged posts into one and moved it here. Hope you don't mind. -Diz

Edited October 19, 2013 by Spøkelseskatten
Post Merge, Move

[Mauro Fonseca]

Overall, if you would like to continue this discussion, you should either privately get in touch with administration or start a new topic in Member Feedback forum about how staffers should create announcement topics; again, this particular topic is not the place for it. This is about the launch trailer.

Fair does. Here's a thread.

So, context. There's really not much context needing to be given here. Reviews for Lost World weren't great, leading to a hype crash. On that context, Hogfather makes a thread for the new trailers of the game, ending it with a sarcastic remark about the game's quality. When called upon it, he makes an edit with a further sarcastic remark about how "no, oh no, the game is perfect and let no-one say otherwise", despite that missing the whole point.

So, are staff not allowed to give their opinion?

Of course they are. That's also not the point here.

The point, as explained more eloquently:

Hogfather is entitled to his opinion just like any other member on this board, but making snide remarks when everyone seems to be on edge is kinda dickish.

The only reason I can think that HF's post would be a particular problem now is because Lost World is getting critically hammered a little more than some people would've liked, thus any sarcasm for the time being is going to be considered rubbing salt in the wound.

Is simply this. Hogfather acted like an asshole. You may say "who're you to call him out, you're even more of an asshole!", and I say "yes, but I'm not staff."

Hogfather is by definition the figure of authority on the forum, so yes, I (and apparently others too) feel uncomfortable when it feels the forum authorities, here represented on his figure, are enjoying actively rubbing salt on the wounds of many of the userbase.

I don't get why this had to become a 3-page derail and into a whole new thread, since it seems obvious to me, no? If the forum's on edge, don't provoke it further, which is something asked of normal members and thus furthermore of the ones supposed to be the level of quality everyone else should aim for?

[PickleBrows]

Hogfather has made his case several times since the reviews started coming in. Like he says, there were people who didn't take his concerns seriously when he posted the TSS preview for the game. So when review sites show up and are bringing up the same issues as him then naturally he'd be in a little of a "I told you so" mood. Hell I think we all would be if put in his shoes. Sure, I'll concede that the remark in the launch trailer thread was pushing it but overall he's reacting how any of us would. I don't think we can keep using "they're staff" as a reason for criticism. Mods are just people like the rest of us.

 

Mods Are People Too 

 

...hmm, that'd make quite a campaign slogan!

[Diz]

Hogfather is by definition the figure of authority on the forum

 

Let me clarify this to clear up any confusion. Hogfather does not have any authority on the SSMB, minus some perks like secret forums and (maybe?) closing his own topics. He nor any TSS staff represent the SSMB authority. TSS staff deal with the main site, while the authority of the forums have been fully delegated to admins and SSMB staff. I know that this has caused confusion for a lot of members for a very long time (both banners say staff), so I thought I should give it a mention.

 

The topic in question looks like it has derailed quite a bit, which happens from time to time. One thing I would like to mention is that there is no singular I in derailment, all participants contribute to the state of a topic. If you feel something is inappropriate or about to become ugly, we wish that you look through your post before responding and think through whether or not your post will contribute to the topic at hand or further derail the topic. If the latter, please use the report function instead, as derailing a topic only makes a mess. My personal policy is to contribute effortedly to even topics that are not doing well. Sometimes it has the neat side effect of making the topic itself go back on track without moderator input.

 

I believe one point to consider is that Hogfather does not actually have any bad intentions, and if he knew the topic would develop in such a manner, he would not have posted that. Most of us have been there at one point, posting something one thought would be a good idea and then it turned out to be not a good idea after all. At the same time, there is a lot of emotions and rage that can arise. We know, and we understand. The best thing to do is to report it and staff will look into it and try dealing with it appropriately.

[Vertekins]

Your reasoning that authority in this case has to conform to some expected opinion-holding and expression of it falls utterly apart when it is considered that...

 

1 - Being in a staff position doesn't void your right to an opinion, nor does it bring-about some kind of robotic standard by which you're supposed to abide by regarding the expression of it.

 

and

 

2 - Hoggy is a TSS Staff member not SSMB staff, which if my experience as one was something to go by means that he has no more authority on this forum than any other normal member unless things have changed regarding the authoritative power of that usergroup since my tenure.

 

The reaction to that topic's opening post was to me yet another example of one of the prevailing problems with this forum - The need to pounce-upon any opinion contrary to the more prevalent one and the positivity bias. The former attitude has been nothing short of fucking obnoxious especially when the mob acts like it's some poor pestered minority when the member with the less popular view 'bites back' and especially when said member held very credible criticisms, which is particularly prevalent in this case.

 

Another thing is that members are way too oversensitive about criticism towards this game as evidenced by how shit hit the fan yesterday, the manner in which some members reacted to that and how, yes, Hoggy's actual informed view was brushed-off as if it had no credibility at all under the mistaken assertion that he had a negativity bias towards this game.

[Mauro Fonseca]

I do resent that when all along in the two posts I made plus this opening one, I tried to make it clear I don't care for Hogfather liking or not the game.

I'll say it again so it becomes clear. I don't care if Hogfather likes the game or not. I care he started the thread with a post liable to rouse up negative discussion, and when (rudely, admissibly) called on it, he switched it with a passive-aggressive edit that further missed the point of what I was saying and assumed I was shitting on him for not liking the game.

Now, the fact Staff apparently have no authority on the forum is a different topic, then. I'll still argue the fact he has a position of power at all (IE has a badge and title to set him apart from the other members) forcibly puts him in a pedestal above, but regardless my problem is more with the attitude displayed when told that was a bad idea than anything else.

[Diz]

my problem is more with the attitude displayed when told that was a bad idea than anything else.

 

The attitude displayed could indeed have been better. I do think at the time he did not realize it gave off that much a mean-spirited impression, but it did, and it should be dealt with accordingly.

 

What has been done, for now anyway, is that has been purged of any derailment, as well as the initial, unneeded sarcasm removed, so feel free to hop back in and discuss the new launch trailer~

[Nepenthe]

If the problem is with the attitude that Hogfather displayed, that's a much fairer argument to have and hash out. However, I also think that this clarification makes some of the initial claims that people had disingenuous, and if nothing else just serves to highlight how impenetrable an echo chamber had been formed from the overwhelming hype of Lost World, because if we're now arguing this issue is a basis of character then that is a conversation that should happen regardless of his place as a TSS writer, because we expect all members to act with some semblance of that.

 

However, what a few people were arguing- and what I have a problem with- is that staffers should now suddenly be charged with neutral reporting on game announcements and news on the forums, to not make their opinion known at all regardless of how they feel about it, when the fact is that this has never been the case. We use snark and gifs all the time without any marked detriment to the atmosphere or the threshold for conversation, for all games, consoles, and companies. Our biases definitely show through, under the assumption that we should be able to partake in the fun just like anyone else. 

 

But Sonic Lost World? You can't touch that one. I couldn't even explain in an academic, distanced way why the color theory of a cut scene might be problematic without people assuming that I was ruining their fun and asking why can't they just like it, which I now assume is simply people expressing the desire for an environment free of criticism. That is, in my mind, significantly more detrimental to conversation than biased reporting, and it's something that drove down my activity in the forum immensely. Even if we all come to the conclusion Hogfather acted out of line on an ethical front, it is still under a context that Lost World is sacred in some respects. Call me embittered, but maybe a little salt in the wound is necessary if we come out of this incident and the entire review fallout learning not to form our excitement for a new game out of glass.

[Frogging101]

Sorry, but I'm really confused about what's going on here. What are we talking about, exactly? I need some background. Who's words are in the OP? Nepenthe's? Hogfather's? Was this split off of another thread? It kinda feels like I'm reading a conversation not from the start but from the middle.

EDIT: Wait, I think I kinda get it; the spoiler in the OP consists of posts from another thread merged into one. I'll figure it out I guess

Edited October 19, 2013 by Frogging101

[Nepenthe]

The beginning is a conversation between Razorsaw and me in the aftermath of the Launch Trailer topic derail. It was split from another thread where the nonsense has since been deleted for the sake of cleanliness and getting everything back on topic.

[The Kid]

I don't know if it was intentionally meant to be mean-spirited but it came off rather odd. The thread was for posting the launch trailer, and right under it in the same post was the equivalent of a snark-laced Youtube comment made at the game. 

 

Ironically, I was avoiding most reviews and discussions on Lost World besides trailers, music, and DLC announcements. So when I clicked on the thread for the trailer, the comments in the OP left me wondering how bad the backlash for this game was. I'm not saying snark in an opening post is bad, but in a thread that has to do with the launch trailer maybe move the snark down a post or two so that people who just wanted to watch the trailer can actually watch the trailer without finding out the game is apparently horrible.

[Tara]

I wasn't in that thread to see it, but in my opinion, if we're going to chew out Hogfather for being snarky in the face of something popular, then we should do the same when members make mean-spirited comments every single time someone dares mention they enjoy or do not enjoy something that is extremely polarizing.  Rather it be staff or not, there always seems to be certain things on this site that you're literally just not allowed to like or dislike, else you succumb to snarky, non-constructive comments.

 

Was it bad timing on Hogfather's part?  Perhaps.  But I'd be more inclined to blame the community for being so oversensitive to a different opinion than someone's ill-timed sarcasm.  The internet is already overrun with images and sarcastic posts about IGN's reviews of the game, so the least we can do is expect the same for people who actually agree with the lower review scores.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Spooky Akita

[Mauro Fonseca]

However, what a few people were arguing- and what I have a problem with- is that staffers should now suddenly be charged with neutral reporting on game announcements and news on the forums, to not make their opinion known at all regardless of how they feel about it, when the fact is that this has never been the case. We use snark and gifs all the time without any marked detriment to the atmosphere or the threshold for conversation, for all games, consoles, and companies. Our biases definitely show through, under the assumption that we should be able to partake in the fun just like anyone else. 

 

But Sonic Lost World? You can't touch that one. I couldn't even explain in an academic, distanced way why the color theory of a cut scene might be problematic without people assuming that I was ruining their fun and asking why can't they just like it, which I now assume is simply people expressing the desire for an environment free of criticism. That is, in my mind, significantly more detrimental to conversation than biased reporting, and it's something that drove down my activity in the forum immensely. Even if we all come to the conclusion Hogfather acted out of line on an ethical front, it is still under a context that Lost World is sacred in some respects. Call me embittered, but maybe a little salt in the wound is necessary if we come out of this incident and the entire review fallout learning not to form our excitement for a new game out of glass.

I honestly think you're projecting here, I'm sorry. I haven't seen me, Razorsaw, or... was it Yakuzu? Whomever else also opined about it say Hogfather couldn't dislike the game. The problem was with, well, I always assume that someone in a position of power (although as Verte pointed out, TSS Staff don't quite qualify as that) in a forum will know best than to try and start crap.

And I will say that yes, even if he was unaware of it, starting a new thread with a neutral theme (new trailers) by giving out an opinion that will always be unpleasant (the new game is crap) in a sarcastic manner, IE doing everything short of cussing to guarantee angry discussion, is starting crap.

So I will say that yes, I would like the mods and staff to yes, be relatively neutral and aware of context- IE, if the forum is slightly panicking over the quality of something, not try and fan the fire by further going "I told you so nyenyenye".

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me that'd be all it took. For the first post to be neutral, instead of making it about his opinion even if only in a runaway ending sentence.

@Akita, I certainly agree with that. I think we're allowed to do whatever we want, and if we overstep our boundaries, the staff slap us and give a warning or ban if needed. Nepenthe's done this twice with me, and I accept it because I'm aware I overstepped the boundaries and thus trust her since she did her job right.

Which is why it then befuddles me to see someone we trust to be able to judge things like "should this thread stay up? should I ban this person?" (although once again it seems TSS Staff DON'T judge these things so eh) act like me.

 

 

EDIT: Although, and I forgot to add, Diz did the correct thing and simply and quietly removed both sarcasm and off-topic discussion from the thread, so as far as I'm concerned this... "deal" is done? I don't have a problem, is what I mean. There was a problem, staff dealt with it, it's cool.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Albator

[Badnik Mechanic]

How about people stop being so touchy over this game?

 

The same thing happened to Slingerland when Black Knight got announced and he hated it from the start. Also theres no difference at all from what I put in there to what gets put in the Mario & Sonic 2014 topic, and what got put into the Sonic 4 forum on a near daily basis when that game came out.

 

The main problem here is that for some reason, some people think we're not allowed to criticise this game, and theres evidence all over the forum today that's the case (specifically, people trying to encourage others to only post positive stuff or to actually ommit certain reviews/view points from discussions for increasingly questionable reasons). Yesterday it got ridiculous, there was a point where I couldn't post anything without someone saying something along the lines of 'you shouldn't point out that' or 'you should be neutral' or 'you should only be positive!'

 

You want me to be just neutral or only positive about lost world, employ me onto Segas PR team for the game. Not my place to be completely neutral, especially when it comes to pointing out whats good or bad about a game.

[Mauro Fonseca]

How about you stop trying to repeatedly shove words into me?

Let me say it again since it seems it needs being said.
 

I don't care you don't like the game, I care you felt the need to further rise trouble by posting your opinion on a thread starter, whether negative or positive.

 

 

EDIT: Sorry, the repeated copypaste was unneeded and for once I'm not trying to push buttons.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Albator

[Nepenthe]

I'm not saying you demanded Hogfather to have a different opinion. In fact, no one is saying this.

 

What we are saying is that the sudden insistence for neutrality highlights a problem I have literally dealt with first hand about three times already in the Lost World forum, a problem that caused me to largely be absent from it and one in which another staffer seems to agree with me on: People are so sensitive about this game that an opinion that is not 100% positive is seen as an attack, as shit-stirring, as posting things that don't belong. Everyone knows I don't generally post sarcastic or snarky things when I'm in the midst of discussion. I try to be sensible and rational, and even I've been bombarded with opining that people should be allowed to like the game in peace.

 

If people weren't so sensitive, so emotionally invested in this game's critical outcome to the point that we are now being asked for the first time- in my history on SSMB- to present threads in a neutral fashion, then a snarky comment wouldn't even have blown up into this. And frankly, I don't think anyone- staffer or otherwise- should have to tip-toe around the boards and censor themselves because the masses really really want everyone to like the game they like and can't handle it when that isn't the case.

[SegaSuperStar]

Why am i not surprised about Hogfather and co causing trouble as usual. 

 

It's perfectly simple. If you don't like something, don't buy it. I've also been shunned for having an opinion and MODS have actually said that i'm not allowed an opinion on this site. 

[Nepenthe]

MODS have actually said that i'm not allowed an opinion on this site. 

 

I'm pretty sure we never said you're not allowed to have an opinion.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Why am i not surprised about Hogfather and co causing trouble as usual. 

 

It's perfectly simple. If you don't like something, don't buy it. I've also been shunned for having an opinion and MODS have actually said that i'm not allowed an opinion on this site. 

 

Hogfather and co eh?

 

Anyone else now not think theres a case of 'not being able to criticise the game' on the board? Aparently now criticising the game is equal to causing trouble.

[SegaSuperStar]

I'm pretty sure we never said you're not allowed to have an opinion.

Are you serious....? everytime i express my opinion on something that's  non hypercritical, it becomes a one sided story. And get threatened with warnings, bans.....very unprofessional. 

[Chris]

MODS have actually said that i'm not allowed an opinion on this site. 

No moderator of this forum has ever said that to one of our members and remained on the team. Considering that none of our moderators in the last few years have been removed for this reason, I'd like to ask you kindly to stop unless you can prove your point with actual results instead of your own word (which doesn't mean diddly in this argument, I might add).

 

 

Are you serious....? everytime i express my opinion on something that's  non hypercritical, it becomes a one sided story. And get threatened with warnings, bans.....very unprofessional. 

Find me a forum this size with more professional staff members that aren't paid.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Chris

[SegaSuperStar]

Hogfather and co eh?

 

Anyone else now not think theres a case of 'not being able to criticise the game' on the board? Aparently now criticising the game is equal to causing trouble.

Yea you and co. 

[Tara]

It's perfectly simple. If you don't like something, don't buy it. I've also been shunned for having an opinion and MODS have actually said that i'm not allowed an opinion on this site. 

Pro-Tip:  If you can't provide links, nobody is inclined to believe you.

 

Second of all, your logic of "if you don't like something, don't buy it," would be perfectly reasonable if we were discussing making a purchasing decision.  But, you know, we're not.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Fuck's sake.

 

SegaSuperStar, mate, sorry, no. That's not at all what I'm saying, I've never had problems expressing my opinions here, you're distorting what I'm saying (Hogfather would you please not jump on that so quick), and just... sigh. Whatever.

 

I'm sorry I'm repeating this so often, I just really want to avoid this becoming a snowball of drama when I really don't want to deviate from my original problem, which was just, basically, a staff member, in a context where any opinion caused a shitload of angry discussion, decided to basically editorialize a thread about trailers, and when called on it, frankly threw a tantrum. Then eventually another member of staff and quickly cleaned things up (which was the smart thing). I'm frankly done here, I really just wanted to say "I don't think that's a way for someone with authority to conduct themselves".

Edited October 19, 2013 by Albator

[SegaSuperStar]

Well let me correct myself. ''SOME'' Mods have said this, not all. 

Pro-Tip:  If you can't provide links, nobody is inclined to believe you.

 

Second of all, your logic of "if you don't like something, don't buy it," would be perfectly reasonable if we were discussing making a purchasing decision.  But, you know, we're not.

It was an example.....