Eggman: Eggceptional Employer or Bad Boss?

[InfinityAlex]

Orbot's Japanese profile says something to the effect of, "He doesn't like Eggman all that much, but he's very loyal to him." Whereas, Cubot's profile says, "He likes Eggman, but isn't very loyal to him."

This is pretty much exactly as it is written in the EU version of the Colours manual.

[Tani Coyote]

I guess that it can safely said that Metal had his free will and domineering behavior erased from his AI chip and now only takes actions that could be interpreted as being an independent decision for self-preservation.

Well it would explain Sonic's ease in murdering sentient robots without a qualm in the world; their souls are fake and can be erased in a heartbeat, unlike an animal or human's!

 

What impressed me that even amid all that chaos with missiles and lasers firing everywhere and Dr. Eggman running for his life in a very dangerous situation, he was able to tell Orbot and Cubot to flee as the two seemed uncertain what to do (Cubot really couldn't do anything but talk at this point) in the midst of everything going on and panicking. The fact that Dr. Eggman said "We are leaving!" implied to me that he, Orbot and Cubot were a unit or a team, and that they all needed to escape that chaotic scene together as opposed to Dr. Eggman (understandably) fending for himself.

I think he has developed some level of compassion for them as they are the closest thing he has to friends. He'll still abuse them and such, but we do the same to our closest friends to a joking extent as well.

I mean, if he can actually care about Tails' well-being despite their status as enemies, why not Orbot and Cubot as well?

I think Eggman has a nice streak he doesn't like showing anyone. At least the post-Adventure era Eggman. Maybe all the times he's worked with Sonic caused a breakthrough and made him learn to appreciate such things a friendship just a bit more? Lots of people having your back, however temporarily, surely must have felt awesome.

[Dr. Crusher]

I think he has developed some level of compassion for them as they are the closest thing he has to friends. He'll still abuse them and such, but we do the same to our closest friends to a joking extent as well.

I mean, if he can actually care about Tails' well-being despite their status as enemies, why not Orbot and Cubot as well?

I think Eggman has a nice streak he doesn't like showing anyone. At least the post-Adventure era Eggman. Maybe all the times he's worked with Sonic caused a breakthrough and made him learn to appreciate such things a friendship just a bit more? Lots of people having your back, however temporarily, surely must have felt awesome.

 

Most people don't normally tend to leave their friends behind in the giant vacuum of space, though.

 

Also, the only reason Robotnik saved Tails was because he still needed him and Sonic to take care of the Deadly Six. Sonic might have said all that jibba-jabba about 180 personalities, but of course he did. He's... Sonic. Robotnik just commented on it to further convince them that he totally wasn't going to stab them in the back later.

 

Also, I very much disagree with that last part, but that's for another subject I suppose.

[InfinityAlex]

Thing is, Eggman must have had some concern to Sonic and Tails' wellbeing, otherwise he certainly wouldn't have saved Sonic when he could just drop him and made a jetpack escape anyway. Besides, Eggman did seem extremely sincere when eplaining his complicated actions. I think he will at least show respect to those he is working with.

[Dr. Mechano]

Thing is, Eggman must have had some concern to Sonic and Tails' wellbeing, otherwise he certainly wouldn't have saved Sonic when he could just drop him and made a jetpack escape anyway. Besides, Eggman did seem extremely sincere when eplaining his complicated actions. I think he will at least show respect to those he is working with.

 

He's a complicated guy.

 

It can be argued that the only reason he

saved Tails and Sonic is that he needed them to stop the Zeti for him. The Zeti control magnetic fields and can override his mechs, so simply leaving Sonic for dead and taking them on himself wouldn't have ended well. He 

needed Sonic alive to defeat Zavok and company, and only revealed his new mech and improvised plans after they were taken care of.

 

Of course, even with that pragmatic explanation, I do think he has some fondness for his enemies. Aside from the manuals and official profiles outright saying as much, there seems to be some genuine rapport between Eggman and Sonic (Tails, not so much here). I don't think it's inconceivable that Eggman respects Sonic and even finds him admirable, while still very much wanting the guy dead so that he won't ruin his plans.

 

In SA2, for example, he bows his head slightly while looking out the window and simply says, "Farewell Sonic, my admirable adversary." I don't think he was being facetious here, and he seemed to truly be paying some form of respect to his old nemesis. Short-lived respect, naturally, as Eggman went right back to threatening Tails for the Emerald, but respect nonetheless.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Count Mechano

[Dr. Crusher]

Thing is, Eggman must have had some concern to Sonic and Tails' wellbeing, otherwise he certainly wouldn't have saved Sonic when he could just drop him and made a jetpack escape anyway. Besides, Eggman did seem extremely sincere when eplaining his complicated actions. I think he will at least show respect to those he is working with.

 

Mechano explained it already. That was only because a

dead Sonic can't stop the Deadly Six, and Robotnik needed the Deadly Six out of the way so that he could use his giant robot with no issue. Sure enough, trying to kill Sonic with the robot is the first thing he does the moment Zavok is out of the picture.

 

Of course, even with that pragmatic explanation, I do think he has some fondness for his enemies. Aside from the manuals and official profiles outright saying as much, there seems to be some genuine rapport between Eggman and Sonic (Tails, not so much here). I don't think it's inconceivable that Eggman respects Sonic and even finds him admirable, while still very much wanting the guy dead so that he won't ruin his plans.

 

In SA2, for example, he bows his head slightly while looking out the window and simply says, "Farewell Sonic, my admirable adversary." I don't think he was being facetious here, and he seemed to truly be paying some form of respect to his old nemesis. Short-lived respect, naturally, as Eggman went right back to threatening Tails for the Emerald, but respect nonetheless.

 

I don't really take the manuals into account that much since they tend to say a lot of things about the characters with varying amounts of truth.

 

And I've moaned enough in the past how a Robotnik that respects his enemies is something I'm really not a fan of (I don't mind it for guys like Bowser, but not Robotnik), but I'll shamefully admit that one of the more petty reasons for that is simply because I myself don't really like Sonic all that much as a character, so I don't see why someone who keeps getting his ass kicked by him would think any different.

[Dr. Mechano]

(Moved to a separate post.)

 

Something I found interesting...

 

In the Deadly Six betrayal cutscene (that was posted earlier), I find it interesting the way Eggman talks to the Zeti. "I'm a compassionate man!" he barks, threatening to use the conch against them again. While obviously intended to be humorous, highlighting the discongruity between Eggman's words and his actions, I think this may indeed say something about the character.

 

See, I think Eggman truly believes he's being perfectly reasonable and - yes - even "compassionate" toward the Zeti, despite objectively treating them horribly. Eggman's own personal sense of right and wrong is so egocentric and warped that anything even remotely resembling kindness, no matter how outweighed by his own apathy or even cruelty, qualifies him to think of himself as compassionate. So he'll slap his minions around, bark orders at them, insult them, and generally treat them badly... but probably reasons that since he built them and continues to repair and care for them, that he's being a perfectly reasonable leader, and that his minions - robot and organic alike - should be grateful to have someone as patient and generous as him as their master. It all goes back to Eggman's utterly narcissistic worldview.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Count Mechano

[Dr. Crusher]

(Moved to a separate post.)

 

Something I found interesting...

 

In the Deadly Six betrayal cutscene (that was posted earlier), I find it interesting the way Eggman talks to the Zeti. "I'm a compassionate man!" he barks, threatening to use the conch against them again. While obviously intended to be humorous, highlighting the discongruity between Eggman's words and his actions, I think this may indeed say something about the character.

 

See, I think Eggman truly believes he's being perfectly reasonable and - yes - even "compassionate" toward the Zeti, despite objectively treating them horribly. Eggman's own personal sense of right and wrong is so egocentric and warped that anything even remotely resembling kindness, no matter how outweighed by his own apathy or even cruelty, qualifies him to think of himself as compassionate. So he'll slap his minions around, bark orders at them, insult them, and generally treat them badly... but probably reasons that since he built them and continues to repair and care for them, that he's being a perfectly reasonable leader, and that his minions - robot and organic alike - should be grateful to have someone as patient and generous as him as their master. It all goes back to Eggman's utterly narcissistic worldview.

 

Now that's something I can get behind, hohohoho.

[Jet Prower]

After having the same adversary for a long time, it likely is almost natural that Eggman would be rather sad if he thought he ever did get rid of Sonic completely. Your biggest foe isn't there to bug you anymore and never will ever again. As much as I can see Eggman wanting him dead, I bet you, if he could get away with it, he would rather have Sonic imprisoned around him forever or be part of one of his robots or something just so he can have him around and continue to hear the complaints and smart mouth, even if he can't fight back. That just sounds more like Eggman's style of wanting to keep the enemy alive but in control just so he can mock them.

 

When you out right kill the adversary, that can in some cases I've seen, lead to villian depression. They no longer have their greatest enemy around anymore, and thus everything from that point on may seem downhill if everything ends up being too easy after that. With Eggman's ego, he seems to prefer a challenge over just flat out walking over things with no challenge at all. Things just become boring at that point and the bad guy almost misses someone around trying to mess things up. That' at least how I see it.

[Dr. Crusher]

After having the same adversary for a long time, it likely is almost natural that Eggman would be rather sad if he thought he ever did get rid of Sonic completely. Your biggest foe isn't there to bug you anymore and never will ever again. As much as I can see Eggman wanting him dead, I bet you, if he could get away with it, he would rather have Sonic imprisoned around him forever or be part of one of his robots or something just so he can have him around and continue to hear the complaints and smart mouth, even if he can't fight back. That just sounds more like Eggman's style of wanting to keep the enemy alive but in control just so he can mock them.

 

When you out right kill the adversary, that can in some cases I've seen, lead to villian depression. They no longer have their greatest enemy around anymore, and thus everything from that point on may seem downhill if everything ends up being too easy after that. With Eggman's ego, he seems to prefer a challenge over just flat out walking over things with no challenge at all. Things just become boring at that point and the bad guy almost misses someone around trying to mess things up. That' at least how I see it.

 

Some villains. Not all of them. (I know about the whole thing with Sonic X and to a lesser extent Adventure 2, but... eh, I never cared for either of them, so no surprise there.)

 

There's plenty of superpowered animals in this big world. Robotnik can just find another guy or girl if he's so determined to do that sort of thing, they probably all act the same to him, so even if he did feel regretful (which I doubt), it wouldn't even last that long. And besides, there's other worlds and dimensions out there for him if he wants another challenge that much. But again, my own personal dislike of Sonic will likely come into play with this viewpoint of mine, and there's also the opinion that I've gotten a little tired of seeing the "villain gets depressed when the hero is dead" cliche, so what do I know.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Dr. Crusher

[Dr. Mechano]

Again, I think Eggman respecting Sonic - and being perfectly willing to kill him anyway - says more for what a bad person he is. While still indefensible, we can at least understand wanting to destroy a completely hated enemy. The idea that Eggman might respect or admire Sonic (SA2 does support that) but want him dead despite this, simply because of the hedgehog's inconvenience to Eggman's plans, reinforces how apathetic Eggman is to how he affects other people.

 

It's less "I hate that hedgehog!"* and more "World domination sure would be a lot easier without that hedgehog," and - no matter how much respect Eggman might feel toward Sonic - world conquest (and getting rid of anything in his way of achieving it) is still his bottom line.

 

*Not saying that Eggman doesn't hate Sonic, of course. He's said over and over that he does, but I think his main drive to destroy Sonic is less about hatred and more about how Sonic affects his schemes. Either way, respect and hatred don't have to be mutually-exclusive feelings. Eggman can't stand Sonic, but can still admire him as an adversary. 

Edited October 31, 2013 by Count Mechano

[Dr. Crusher]

Well, when you put it that way... I suppose I can accept it a little more, although I'd still rather it be for some twisted reason like "respecting his destructive abilities" or something like that.

[InfinityAlex]

Well, not canon, but Archie did have Eggman break down after to many defeats at the hands of Sonic. However, after "reasoning" himself back to sanity, he was ready to go again. He relishes the challenge of what Sonic brings to the table in each and every adventure and while he does sometimes lose it in a blood-thirsty rage, I think he genuinely does need Sonic, if only for the entertainment of the fight or seeing him beaten. Also, Bowser isn't one to respect enemies. He has no respect for Mario and Luigi at all and if he does, then it's very hard to see.

 

King DeDeDe on the other hand, genuinely has respect for Kirby and has been on friendly terms with him on more than one occassion. While DeDeDe isn't truly evil, he is a villain, and he does hold respect for Kirby. In the Revenge of the King (Kirby Superstar Ultra), You can just tell this when he tells Kirby their feud ends here and now. He's not telling Kirby he's going to die, he is respectfully and solemnly accepting that, no matter the outcome, his battle with Kirby will end. He treats Kirby as an equal. A rival. Bowser looks down on Mario as a bump in the road, albeit a very big one. Eggman respects Sonic as an adversary, but he still belittles his actions, which is especially apparent in Lost World. OK, villain rant over.

[E-122-Psi]

I still Eggman as someone who values life in a pragmatic sense that his huge ego requires it. There's no satisfaction of killing someone who doesn't respect you, or even just enslaving them unwillingly. Why do that when you can make them realize how brilliant you truly are. He might be willing to take short cuts such as brainwashing them into thinking that at times, but still his desire is to have those around him alive so they can worship and realize his greatness.

 

I think this may be why he at least tried the odd barter with the Deadly Six, on the off chance that they gain some sort of respectful cooperation rather than just being impudent slaves he keeps on a leach and has to put up with their constant lack of respect. He uses force ultimately since in the end it is a means of an even larger population, but in the end I think Eggman's top priority is desiring respect and loyalty.

 

In hindsight this might be why Satam and Archie Robotnik seem kinda one note in comparison. In the cartoon especially everything went against such desires, despite the doctor still being every bit a narcissist as the games version. His entire goal was to rid the Earth of any sentient life, and turn everyone into lifeless robots (they even emphasized it wasn't brainwashing but the victim acting against their will). He had Snively sure and he could force robians to mumble some vow of respect him, but both were cases of people he knew hated his guts but could just force into subordination, which I don't feel would have the same catharsis a guy his ego desires. I could argue it could be down to such incarnations' sadism being a larger force in their personality, but even then I feel their desire to pamper their ego would overpower it.

Edited October 31, 2013 by E-122-Psi

[Dr. Crusher]

I still Eggman as someone who values life in a pragmatic sense that his huge ego requires it. There's no satisfaction of killing someone who doesn't respect you, or even just enslaving them unwillingly. Why do that when you can make them realize how brilliant you truly are. He might be willing to take short cuts such as brainwashing them into thinking that at times, but still his desire is to have those around him alive so they can worship and realize his greatness.

 

I think this may be why he at least tried the odd barter with the Deadly Six, on the off chance that they gain some sort of respectful cooperation rather than just being impudent slaves he keeps on a leach and has to put up with their constant lack of respect. He uses force ultimately since in the end it is a means of an even larger population, but in the end I think Eggman's top priority is desiring respect and loyalty.

 

Robotnik might prefer to have them stroke his ego, but he's not against having to use brute force or other means to straight up intimidate and/or enslave people into submission by that much. As long as he's caught something, in any way, that's all that matters. He's happy.

[Vertekins]

Well, not canon, but Archie did have Eggman break down after to many defeats at the hands of Sonic. However, after "reasoning" himself back to sanity, he was ready to go again.

 

That was only facilitated by everyone else being written to act like complete idiots and continually remind him of who he is.

 

I think what is shallow about Game Eggman is that he was willing to gain attention and adoration through mind control when if anything, attention and adoration via that method isn't exactly authentic. He'd be a bad ruler because he's willing to command obedience through taking away free will.

[Uraraka]

Yeah, never an employer. If anything, he was partner in crime, which still isn't accurate as he used Knuckles. You hear that, Knucklesgirl?! Knuckles is nothing more than a tool! How d'ya feel now?

   but...but... okay.

Edited November 1, 2013 by knucklesgirl

[E-122-Psi]

That was only facilitated by everyone else being written to act like complete idiots and continually remind him of who he is.

 

I think what is shallow about Game Eggman is that he was willing to gain attention and adoration through mind control when if anything, attention and adoration via that method isn't exactly authentic. He'd be a bad ruler because he's willing to command obedience through taking away free will.

That's still a step above Archie/Satam Eggman that prefers turning people into lifeless shells that he pretty much has to press a button to blandly say a command about their servitude to him, what satisfaction is there in that? Games Eggman's method at least involves maintaining some sort of personality that can genuinely like him, just he 'tweaks' it in that direction.

 

Then again I might just say that because I preferred brainwashing over 'self aware living death' concerning robotocization, especially since it's a lot easier to see people like Uncle Chuck coming out of it after over a decade and not be inconsolably traumatized, which they clearly aren't. It fit Robotnik's egotistic drive and didn't completely ruin all suspension of disbelief for the sake of making him look super dark and evil.

 

I kinda prefer the idea of him craving respect and adoration because it makes his goals of conquest more unique. Most of his plans are ridiculously egocentric, making amusement parks and industries with his likeness slapped all over it. In Sonic X and AoSth he tried even hijacking media just so he could be the star (eg. the Eggman X gag in the former). He's an attention whore. He thinks he's the greatest and he wants everyone else to think the same, even if it means using a tad force.

Edited November 1, 2013 by E-122-Psi

[Jet Prower]

I still hold to my thought, that while he may want to defeat Sonic and many of the others, he almost would rather them still be around after he was in charge, be it through lost of free will where they can stroke his ego by automating someone that was a bad enemy into a close slave now. Then the other being where he keeps him free willed and stuck inside a machine to work for him or around just so he can tease and continue to stroke his ego. Eggman just seems like someone these days as someone that needs his ego constantly beefed up. When his ego isn't being stroked and brought up all the time, he gets rather angry and sloppy and then often tends to get rather bored. This is how I see it at least. Still, be it if he keeps the person around locked up, or as a mindless slave with no freewill, he wants them around as something to stroke his ego with.

[TailsTellsTales]

Yeah, never an employer. If anything, he was partner in crime, which still isn't accurate as he used Knuckles. You hear that, Knucklesgirl?! Knuckles is nothing more than a tool! How d'ya feel now?

Knuckles is not a tool except only to Eggman.

[InfinityAlex]

Sh...Knucklesgirl doesn't know that yet. But yeah, Knuckles was pretty much to Robotnik as batteries are to us. We really need them, sometimes it's really frustrating as you have only 1 half full AA size and once they've served their purpose, you don't give to shits about them anymore.

[Uraraka]

Sh...Knucklesgirl doesn't know that yet. But yeah, Knuckles was pretty much to Robotnik as batteries are to us. We really need them, sometimes it's really frustrating as you have only 1 half full AA size and once they've served their purpose, you don't give to shits about them anymore.

 

 

 

 

   but...but... okay.

  yes she does!!!! (lookie up )

Edited November 1, 2013 by knucklesgirl

[InfinityAlex]

*realises the jig is up*

I'm outta here!

*jumps offscreen, giving SSMB a Game Over*