Where do we go from here? (Warning: Untagged SLW Spoiler Discussion)

[Chaos Warp]

(Figured that I'd just make this an untagged spoiler topic since we'll probably need to discuss a lot of SLW spoilers)

 

So, Sonic Lost World came out. It's very divisive, and has not met many's expectations. It's much like Sonic Unleashed in that way, except this time we're coming off of a very well received Sonic game as opposed to..........06. Even for fans of Lost World like me, it is quite a flawed game. So...............where do we go from here? I'll start with my thoughts.

 

-If there's anything we're gonna keep from SLW, it should be the parkour. That was really the best part of the game. But I think it should be refined. Make it so Sonic controls ala SA1, and trigger parkour by pressing the trigger as always, but this time the trigger triggers an extremely short dash, the idea being that you use it next to whatever you wanna parkour up/around, thus triggering the parkour. Really, SEGA should have just went the SA1 route in terms of base controls. But make doing parkour faster then normal running so parkour can not only be a tool to create great level design and flow, but also to gain extra speed. Basically combine the parkour with what worked from previous Sonic games. 

 

-Keep the spindash, but make it so it goes faster depending on how much you charge it up, and don't make Sonic randomly uncurl after a certain period of time. 

 

-Keep the character interactions, but put them in a much better plot. The characterization and interactions of the main Sonic cast in SLW were, IMO the best the series has ever seen (minus them still not knowing how to handle Knux), but the actual plot was really disjointed, had no sense of flow, lacked context for some things and was just kinda shoddy. Kind of a shame that they had to get one thing so right and mess up another, we need both things to be good in the next game. 

 

-Get rid of the tube formations, but keep the open-ended free movement of them. It felt really damn liberating to not be constricted to sets of paths and LW, and any ground-based level design in the future should try to keep those design philosophies in mind. 

 

-Keep ledge grasping. Seriously, it's awesome. 

 

-Add some sort of momentum physics. Now, this is probably the most unlikely thing to happen, but, hell, LW already has a roll and a spin-dash, and I feel it would perfectly compliment parkour. The more momentum speed you get, the higher you can go up with the parkour. Works great. 

 

EDIT: Keep the artstyle if it's required for 60 FPS, but god damn it optimize the game engine about 100 times better and get rid of THAT DAMN POP IN. Seriously, it makes the game look really bad. 

EDIT 2: Forgot 2 things

 

-Level-specific gimmicks, not full on gimmick levels. Now, the boost games were lacking in level gimmicks, but I feel LW goes overboard with gimmick levels. Focus more on level gimmicks as opposed to full on levels for a gimmick. Also, no un-sonic-like gimmicks like leading a fruit around to cut it on a big fan blade to create the way forward. 

 

-No more kill-x-enemies-to-continue stuff. I thought we were done with that with Rush. Granted it's not an intolerable thing, but it's still kinda flow-breaking.

 

So that's where I think the future of Sonic should go after Lost World. Essentially taking the good things about LW, expanding upon them and combining them with the good stuff from other Sonic games. 

What are your thoughts?

Edited November 5, 2013 by Chaos Warp

[Blue Wisp]

... UUUH I'd like to see the Deadly Six again. Not in the next inmediate game, just, someday. 

 

Maybe actually explain their origins and stuff. They're good characters.

[Abominal SnowTaz]

Only thing I'll say, level design that doesn't make me wanna rip my goatee in half. I understand challenge, but damn...

[Celestia]

-Keep the spindash, but make it so it goes faster depending on how much you charge it up, and don't make Sonic randomly uncurl after a certain period of time.

I agree with the first point (charging doesn't seem to do anything), but you can press and hold the trigger again while Spindashing and you'll Spindash infinitely until you hit an obstacle of some kind.

 

But yeah, I basically agree with what you said. Bring back the traditional acceleration-based Sonic movement, make some other tweaks to the way Sonic moves around, speed up and smooth out the parkour, and I'll be happy gameplay wise. I don't see the planetoid level design staying after this game, since it wouldn't really fit outside of Lost Hex. Unless the third exclusive pulls a Sonic & Knuckles on us and is part two of the story. Oh, and other playable characters. Please.

 

As for story, I really liked it and I think it shows off the current writers' potential a lot more than the past two games, I hope that they're allowed this much freedom in the next game they write and that they improve even further (particularly in overall plot). My main wish is that they'd give context to the levels themselves, if possible.

 

I get the feeling they wanted to do a lot more but were probably on a budget, though. Like they were told "you can only have [X] amount of cutscenes because money" so they had to make the most of it. Could be wrong, but that's my guess.

[Chaos Warp]

Oh, I forgot 2 things.

 

-Level-specific gimmicks, not full on gimmick levels. Now, the boost games were lacking in level gimmicks, but I feel LW goes overboard with gimmick levels. Focus more on level gimmicks as opposed to full on levels for a gimmick. Also, no un-sonic-like gimmicks like leading a fruit around to cut it on a big fan blade to create the way forward.

 

-No more kill-x-enemies-to-continue stuff. I thought we were done with that with Rush. Granted it's not an intolerable thing, but it's still kinda flow-breaking.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Chaos Warp

[Autosaver]

Get rid of the charged homing attack.

[InfinityAlex]

I'll say two things:

Harder bosses - As if I need to show my reasoning.

Develop the relationship Sonic and Amy are starting to have - Now, I know some people don't like shipping and stuff but, handled properly, this could work. Amy seems to be much calmer now and isn't just around Sonic for the hell of it. I also think Sonic is starting to warm to her now. He seemed genuinely very pleased to see Amy, let alone Knuckles too. Also, the line he says to Amy at the end of LW "Looks like springtime's come early!" certainly seems like flirting in this context. I think this relationship should be expanded upon more and I think the writers should give them some more screen time together. However, Amy's VA needs to change her Amy voice; it's extremely irritating right now.

[Komodin]

I think we'd be better off without the charging Homing Attack and Deflecting Kick/Aerial Somersault moves. From what I've seen, they don't seem to be all that intuitive and they make beating Badniks a bit too much of a hassle for their own good. That's not to say they should go back to making the enemies complete pushovers again, of course, but still.

[Celestia]

I think I'd change it so the kick isn't needed for certain enemies. Instead it's an option if you want to kick enemies at other enemies to take out a bunch at a time. You should be able to beat any enemy with either attack. Sure, put more thought into enemies and make them more of a threat, but even without this aspect I think they're already fairly dangerous in this game, especially without the boost.

 

Also keep the idea of locking onto multiple enemies because it's pretty fun. I just wish the homing reticles were more reliable since they sometimes don't show up when it feels like they should...

[Octarine]

How does the 3DS version's air slash thing compare to the kick from the Wii U version? I mean, I understand the mechanical differences, but is it actually any fun in practice? Would it be worth keeping around instead of the kick?

[thatguyfrom03]

SA1 style control and level design that incorporates momentum and rolling. Really no matter how many times we say it, it doesn't make it any less obvious the ideal direction for the franchise. 

 

Momentum

Here is why I think momentum most important these days. Speed Variation. In 3D games, speed has been broken into sections.

 

1. Normal analog/Run Button

2. Automated

3. Spin Dash/Boost

 

One issue I had with the boost games was that you were either jogging, or hitting Mach 3. No build up or variation. Momentum and varying terrain basically solves this without picking and choosing which style to go with. LW's 3 tiers was nice from a practical standpoint, but the run button being one speed killed its potential.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm-WU3uEZBg

 

9 mins 38 seconds. See this right here? The 2D gameplay is the same as 3D but just with a speedcap and camera change right? Put moments like that in 3D. Oh and take out the springs and dash pads. Completely unnecessary, as we've been saying for years now.

 

Either refine 2D or remove it 

I might be alone in this but I'm tired of these weak, clunky 2D sections. Colors' platforming had similar problems (but way overblown by some Sonic fans ), but the main acts were massive with multiple paths and Wisps actually enhanced the gameplay. LW's stages only had one or two paths to go, and with the awkward jump and ledge grabbing the platforming feels like a chore. And why wasn't there more momentum based sections like in the above video? Seriously moments like that were defining moment of Sonic that even Classic in Generations captured. 

 
Quality Control
Here's whats hurt the most about LW, and will make me hesitant to hype every Sonic game to come out after it. On paper this game was amazing, but the developers made some outright terrible design decisions. No matter what concept Sega comes up with, as long as the developers think snowball stages, DKC rail stages, vertical scrolling/80's Nintendo levels and carbon copied cloud/cannon sections are good ideas, the product as a whole will suffer. SEGA IT IS OK TO JUST RUN FROM POINT A TO POINT B. Your concepts of "variety" have been poor since 1998. Let it go guys. We just wanna go fast...with clever platforming.

 

TL;DR:

 

Keep the non-linear 3D worlds but keep them grounded like SA1. Keep the Parkour, and actually create ways to expand the level design with it. Don't compartmentalize it like you've done with speed, and platforming sections. Merge them together! That's what makes a great Sonic game. Its not that hard! I'm tired so I'll make edits tomorrow.

 

[Sami]

Make it more like Sonic Adventure, less like anything that isn't Sonic (coughcoughmario). That's my request.

[azoo]

I have ten things I think they should probably work on fixing up for the next game. This is strictly gameplay speaking.

 

(1) Change the game focus. In Sonic Lost World, most of what you do is precision platforming, combatting off enemies, and standing around while using gimmicks / completing puzzles; even though the focus should really be more on using the Spin Dash and parkouring across crazy terrain. Sonic's not all about speed, of course, but making it too difficult to even gain speed is a step too far in the opposite direction. Bring slopes, hills and loops back in full force (and no, not with dashpads all over them), and while also leaving some multi-directional areas open, the levels should still generally keep you moving forward instead of keeping you still.

 

(2) Sonic having traction is good, but he should also coast. This game sorta kinda suffers from the same issue as Sonic 4; if you let go of the stick your forward motion is basically dead. Giving control to Mother Nature and letting yourself transition smoothly to a halt instead of sudden jerks when letting go of the stick while either jumping, spinning, or just running would amplify the good qualities of this game engine in MASSIVE amounts (and is half the reason why jumping off those rails in the rail stages is so nice). And if you really need to slow down, just press the opposite direction or use walking-mode. Shit's not rocket science.

 

(3) Bring back the rolling mechanics. Azoo is a broken record, more news at 11. No really, if you want to emphasize that speed is a reward, why not bring this back? Especially since you'll be spending lots of time exploiting the Spin Dash, this might as well make a comeback. After all, you and I both know it feels super awkward watching Sonic just trudge down a hill in a ball and gain no speed. It ain't natural. It ain't right. Why should it be a thing that still happens whenever it was one of the biggest things that individualized Sonic in his first outings?

 

(After all, rail mechanics have already shown that it works really well and has no reason not to.)

 

(4) On that note, make the tap-rev on the Spin Dash actually increase your buildup. I know its a small thing, but it makes a lot of difference.

 

(5) Underplay the kick attack. Make it exclusively as an out-of-the-way alternative that knocks back enemies, potentially clunking out large groups of them if used skillfully. None of this "oh well sometimes you can't homing attack so press a different button" stuff. Spinning rapidly in a ball at something should do much more damage than some twiddly kick, no matter the predicament. And besides, don't tell me I suddenly can't boop a Crabmeat anymore, that hurts my feelings.

 

(6) I like springs and I like dashpads, but please stop using them so much. Only put them in places where they'd be fun to use, and not as setpieces to control/automate an entire area. It is not fun watching the game shoot you from spring to dashpad to spring to dashpad to spring to dashpad whenever you could've had a lot of fun launching yourself off that ramp yourself and maneuvering across that area your way. When its expected of the game to let you go fast on hills and around loop-de-loops, there shouldn't be any hand holding involved.

 

(7) Also, pleaseeeee stop it with the pits and the cheap deaths. This has been a plaguing issue for who knows how long. Can you please stop doing that? Pits are a decent challenge in a later level, but obnoxious as hell in the first levels of the game. If instead there were less rewarding (or surprisingly more rewarding) paths below it instead of a death awaiting you, then maybe it'd be more accepted.

 

(8) Bring back the "100 rings = 1-up" idea. Considering how mind-blisteringly difficult SLW is, why was this considered a good concept? To see if you could sell a 25 lives DLC pack? I wonder how well that worked out for ya. :v

 

(9) Bring in more playable characters. You have a pretty good, simplistic base to work off of right now, Sega. Tails and Knuckles would at least fit into this gameplay style really well, so I'd love to see them return. Playing as 4 multicolored Sonics is dumb anyways and I'm not sure if I know many that actually like it.

 

(10) And finally, please NO MORE WISPS. I'm not even kidding, unless you can make a good explanation as to why they're there as well as making all of them consistently as awesome as the drill while requiring 0% touchscreen / gyroscope usage; PLEASE just don't do it. 

Edited November 2, 2013 by Azookara

[Blue Blood]

How does the 3DS version's air slash thing compare to the kick from the Wii U version? I mean, I understand the mechanical differences, but is it actually any fun in practice? Would it be worth keeping around instead of the kick?

Absolutely not. Remember Shadow's Chaos Spear in '06? It's the exact same thing. Not fun, and rather tedious.

Uhm, if I'm honest I don't think much should be kept from SLW even though I like the game. The parkour is the only aspect I'm really keen to see return, though it'd have to be totally re-designed. Nothing about it says "free running" or "go anywhere you want" like I expected. Instead you're rigidly locked in two or four directions, and can't hardly run up anything. Remember the start of the second part of Emerald Coast in SA1? You come across that huge wall that you can run up and along. That's more how the parkour should have felt, and what the level design should have consisted of.

The spin dash should focus as it did originally, and not as a as an adjusted boost. Don't get me wrong, I do prefer the spin dash in this game to the boost, but ultimately it's just a slower boost with a bit more control. The multi homing attack can return (probably give it to Sonic only, while the rest of the cast has the traditional HA only). Charged HA and the kick should be scrapped. They over complicate things.

The HUGE variety of enemies needs to be kept. The enemies in the games haven't been this enjoyable to tackle since the Classics (... Go figure) and that was down to the the fact that there were so many who all behaved very differently. Get us some more original ones though, please.

Art style... Hm. I'm a bit indifferent. I love the sheer simplicity of it at times. Everything is bright and eye catching. On the flipside, the lighting sucks and everything looks flat 90% of the time. If they can improve on that and not mimic Mario so much, then it'll be great. If not, something more in line with what's typical of the serious would suit too. I just don't want to lose the 60fps.

Chatting with pppp earlier, he came to the conclusion that SLW is a failed experiment. I couldn't agree any more with that summary. There's lessons to be learnt all over the place, but they're more a list of dont's than do's.

Would really love another game in vein of SA1/06 (the good parts of it) now. I've wanted one for quite some time, but was just as happy to accept SLW as another new idea. It didn't work out in the end, and I want back what I know I love.

Oh and for the love of God get me alternate playable characters

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Absolutely not. Remember Shadow's Chaos Spear in '06? It's the exact same thing. Not fun, and rather tedious.

Can't comment on Lost World, but I actually liked Chaos Spear in 06 as a way of making Shadow stand out differently from Sonic. Although it would have been better if it wasn't relegated to stunning enemies unless you were in your "boost" mode...or whatever it was called. *Looks up the manual*

[Solly]

I don't think the concepts Lost World introduced were broken on any kind of fundamental level, but the game's difficulty balance was wayyy off, and controlling Sonic still never felt as smooth as you'd expect from this type of platformer.

 

As a fan of the series, I'm one of the people who really does dig the Mario influence in design and aesthetics, and the added charm and whimsy that comes with it, but I feel like they could've taken cues from those games without ripping off the superficial stuff, too. At the very least I'd like to see the next game take the Mario approach to design, by building the game around a set of really well-developed mechanics.

 

So what I'd want for a potential sequel is to take what they added, like the tiered running, ledge grabbing, and parkour, and refine those ideas. Make them easier and more comfortable to use, and stop adding things that don't mesh well with them. I will readily concede to the possibility that I just suck balls at this game but all of the above mechanics felt way too slippery and unwieldy for something the player is expected to do a lot, in life-or-death situations. 

 

In short; make a more focused version of this, with more original ideas. I don't really have any other complaints. Sorry if this post reads like shit, I'm writing off the top of my head at 3 AM.

[Blue Blood]

Can't comment on Lost World, but I actually liked Chaos Spear in 06 as a way of making Shadow stand out differently from Sonic. Although it would have been better if it wasn't relegated to stunning enemies unless you were in your "boost" mode...or whatever it was called. *Looks up the manual*

What I'm getting at though is just the pure mechanic of the attack- it stuns an enemy to make it easier to attack them. Why not just let me go in for the kill right away?

If Shadow could use Chaos Spear as some some of projectile attack to kill enemies, then great. It'd be the exact same case for this air kick move. But stunning enemies is pants.

[Sonic The Badass]

Sonic adventure style controls/ movement would be nice in this type of game, keep the parkour, throw out the wisp or don't force gimmick on a gimmick (I mean seriously wisp on touch screen) tweak the parkour system. maybe remove the run button but keep a spindash button, add a parkour button so you don't accidentally hit run and run up the wall randomly. more deadly six, speed sonic up a little more, make him about the speed of the adventure days. and make eggman a bigger threat. 

[Scar]

I think we should move firmly away from the Mario Galaxy influence.

And also tighten up the controls and better level design obviously.

[Chaos Warp]

 

 

Quality Control

Here's whats hurt the most about LW, and will make me hesitant to hype every Sonic game to come out after it. On paper this game was amazing, but the developers made some outright terrible design decisions. No matter what concept Sega comes up with, as long as the developers think snowball stages, DKC rail stages, vertical scrolling/80's Nintendo levels and carbon copied cloud/cannon sections are good ideas, the product as a whole will suffer. SEGA IT IS OK TO JUST RUN FROM POINT A TO POINT B. Your concepts of "variety" have been poor since 1998. Let it go guys. We just wanna go fast...with clever platforming.

 

 

 

Hey, the rail stages in SLW were actually really good, and the vertical climbing levels could have been really cool if they were done better. Imagine a vertical climbing level focused really hard on Parkour and wall-jumping, as opposed to what we got. Also, the cloud sections would have been cool if they were just Windy Hill's gimmick, it's just that they were overused, and the snowball thing would have been cool as an optional level specific gimmick, even though I admittedly like that level.  It's not the ideas in LW most of the time, it's the execution. Their hearts were really in the right place for this game.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Chaos Warp

[Diogenes]

Chaos Warp already addressed the majority of my opinions in the OP, but...

Parkour is the big one. The implementation may need work, but in concept it's a great way to expand Sonic's abilities, and in a way that's very unique to him. If they learn nothing else from SLoW, I hope they at least keep working on this.

I like the run button, but it should be more acceleration-based rather than being closer to a toggle between two speeds. Likewise, bring back classic physics and level design with enough vertical movement to take advantage of them. Sonic games feel best when there's some weight to the character and a rollercoaster effect to your speed (that is, the anticipation of climbing and the release of dropping).

The level design has some good ideas, specifically that not every level is a tiny little hallway flanked by solid walls and/or death and that paths actually intersect relatively freely rather than being sectioned off from each other. I don't think the tube design was bad, but it's not necessary and it might be more trouble than it's worth if they decide to make taller levels (since the higher you go the further away things get) so it can be safely dropped, but they should keep in mind the size and connectedness that those tubes encouraged.

Also I'm not sure how the attempts at mixing up attacking worked out in the end, but I think it's a good thing to keep working on. The series hasn't yet solved the problem of the homing attack being the best solution for everything enemy-related. The kick may not be the right answer, but they should keep looking for one.

And keep the writers around. There were a few rough lines and the climax was a little weak, but overall it's easily among the best stories the series has had, and the characterization of the main cast is especially good. Sega made the right choice in giving them more control, and I hope they don't take it away just because this game isn't a home run.

[Abominal SnowTaz]

Get rid of the charged homing attack.

Yeah I hear ya there. I'm still trying to get how that works.

[MegasonicZX]

ive only played the 3ds version so im not sure if these would count but for the next game I think getting rid of the 2d stages would be a nice start, honestly I don't mind them but at this point in time they feel really unnecessary.

[Narukami07]

Chaos Warp already addressed the majority of my opinions in the OP, but...

Parkour is the big one. The implementation may need work, but in concept it's a great way to expand Sonic's abilities, and in a way that's very unique to him. If they learn nothing else from SLoW, I hope they at least keep working on this.

I like the run button, but it should be more acceleration-based rather than being closer to a toggle between two speeds. Likewise, bring back classic physics and level design with enough vertical movement to take advantage of them. Sonic games feel best when there's some weight to the character and a rollercoaster effect to your speed (that is, the anticipation of climbing and the release of dropping).

The level design has some good ideas, specifically that not every level is a tiny little hallway flanked by solid walls and/or death and that paths actually intersect relatively freely rather than being sectioned off from each other. I don't think the tube design was bad, but it's not necessary and it might be more trouble than it's worth if they decide to make taller levels (since the higher you go the further away things get) so it can be safely dropped, but they should keep in mind the size and connectedness that those tubes encouraged.

Also I'm not sure how the attempts at mixing up attacking worked out in the end, but I think it's a good thing to keep working on. The series hasn't yet solved the problem of the homing attack being the best solution for everything enemy-related. The kick may not be the right answer, but they should keep looking for one.

And keep the writers around. There were a few rough lines and the climax was a little weak, but overall it's easily among the best stories the series has had, and the characterization of the main cast is especially good. Sega made the right choice in giving them more control, and I hope they don't take it away just because this game isn't a home run.

 

This.

[Autosaver]

There's a like button ya know.

 

I didn't have a problem with the 2D stages. I prefer not having to have 3D sections and then a shitty 2D section to make the level longer like Gens had. I would just tune up the controls in the 2D sections to make it easier to platform. Some of the level design in those levels were pretty good.