Where do we go from here? (Warning: Untagged SLW Spoiler Discussion)

[Nepenthe]

Indeed; if your only contribution in a post is going to be "This," just hit the like button instead. xP;;

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

I feel one of the best bets would be to make a direct sequel to Lost World, so as to continue the story, expanding on it, fleshing out the Deadly 6, explaining things left unexplained and giving us a better ending.

 

Of course it would also be the perfect opportunity to address gamplay complaints, make tweaks, remove the wisps, speed things up, etc, to improve the Lost World formula as well!

[The Deleter]

• Keep:

- The art style; I absolutely love the art style used in this game, and definitely think it should be used again, though mostly for another Wii U title. Perhaps it should have a bit more realistic grit added to it, to look even more like the classic art styles, but that doesn't mean I want Green Hill Rezone again or anything like that. Just the basic aesthetic is all. You get 60 fps and 1080p graphics on the side because of it, as well. Plus, a bold, striking art style blends into each other a lot better than detailed, washed out style when speeding through it at the speed of sound, resulting in a prettier game.

 

- Spindash; This move feels like the perfect blend of the boost and spindash, and is definitely superior to all previous 3D incarnations. However, should the next game be a momentum-based game, I beg of you, SEGA, take advantage of slopes again. You've nailed carrying momentum over through ramps to make you jump farther, without slowing down to a stop, (*glares at Generations*) so all you've gotta do now is to let us take our speed and flying distance even further.

 

- Boosterless ramps and loops; You have no idea how satisfying it is to use these in a game once again, SEGA. Do it more.

 

- Rail grinding; Finally, grinding that actually feels like part of the level, rather than a scripted cutscene/quickstep section. It still retains the latter's ease of getting onto rails and staying on them, though that's not a bad thing if it still retains some challenge and requires actual input. And boy, does this game deliver on both. Honestly, this version of rail grinding feels like the perfect blend of Unleashed's easy-to-access and cinematic rails with SA2's deeper physics, controls, and challenge, and while it might not feel as satisfying to master as the latter's mechanics, it's still a lot of fun to play around with.

 

- Idle/reaction animations; I never really liked the "realistic" dying animations, so seeing Sonic go from falling onto his back and giving the player a "Dude, why" expression to the classic falling-off-the-screen animation was incredibly refreshing to me. Definitely need more of this goodness in future games: https://d3esbfg30x759i.cloudfront.net/ss/zlCfzRKVNyE5xlOE3L

 

- Deadly Six; Not necessarily as constantly recurring villains, but at the very least used to make a sequel, especially with the way the ending of this game turned out. Other than Zomom and Zeena, I really enjoyed these guys, and whether people like them or not, they at least have more going for them than the random Monster of the week past games constantly used. Their backstory should be explained a bit more, as well, should they return.

 

- Arena bosses; I don't know about what you guys think, but chase-only bosses were getting really boring after being used for five games in a row, and these bosses were a nice breath of fresh air from the usual fare. True, they were a bit easy with the charged homing attack, but they were designed rather well for Sonic Team bosses. Not saying chase bosses shouldn't appear in any more games, as they've been a part of the Sonic series since, well, his first game. Just have a lot of variety is all.

 

 

• Tweak:

- Physics; They make sense for the level design in this game, as some of the platforming is rather precise for full-out, jump-making momentum physics, and the slopes in this game are mostly made of alternate gravity sections; but for Pete's sake, if you make a regular earth-based platformer in the future, SEGA, please make rolling downhill or through loops have more inertia than this game.

 

- Bounce; Bounce is supposed to keep you momentum from your original jump, dagnabbit.

Sonic's running speed and run button; It was really useful for this game with all the crazy designs and stuff, but Sonic's running momentum seriously needs to come back for the next game. Make the transition time between walking and running a second or two longer, up his top running speed, and bring his sliding animation back for coming to a halt at top speed. Also, I don't think that there should be a run button over a walk button, or vice versa. For low-experienced players, holding a button to simply walk would be rather frustrating while platforming, and for high-experienced gamers, holding a button to run would be frustrating, since it's what they do the most. Rather, give the player the option to choose his speed setting for the button. That way, you can please both crowds.

 

- Level environment variety/consistency; This game has the most variety in a Sonic game since Sonic Adventure, and it's quite a refreshing change over Colors and Generations' rather repetitive themes for their worlds. Good job, SEGA.

However, there is one element this game really lacks in this department, and that is level progression and coherence. Why is Sonic in a floating candyland after running down a bunch of trees? Why is Sonic suddenly in a cave after running through a grassy plain in the sky? Why is an Underwater level in a Lava world? ANSWER ME!!! Sonic levels almost always had a reason for their existence and why Sonic was there after Sonic 2. Why was Sonic in a burning forest after running through a perfectly normal one? Because it was set on fire by Eggman's robots. Why was Sonic in the waterways after running through said forest? Because he fell down a ravine. Some levels pull this off to some extent, such as Frozen Factory's casino level seeping into previous levels, and Tropical Coast's transition from above the water to underwater, but most random level themes are just that: Random. This really is just a nitpick, really, but for the next game, please make you levels more logical, SEGA.

 

- Combat; Most notably the homing attack. Make the lock-on more responsive, remove the charged homing attack, assign chained homing attack to a button to be charged up, and for goodness' sake, keep the momentum you had when you first jumped. They almost had it in this game; they almost made it possible to keep moving after Homing attacking. But the distance you cover from it is so short, it barely makes any difference. Also, the kick attack positively needs to come back for games where enemies matter. I've had so much fun with this attack, it's not even funny. Though, the game should be more clear about which enemies require kick and which don't. Maybe a specific color of armor, maybe a different lock-on icon, I dunno, something to make it clearer than it was in this game.

 

Parkour; Nothing's inherently wrong with the parkour, but it could use more tweaking. Make the ledge-grab faster, wall-climbing faster and easier to spindash up, wall-running faster, yadayadayada. Now what I mostly want to see is stuff that could be added to this new mechanic. Perhaps add a swing-around-a-pole-to-get-top-speed move, like how the poles in Mushroom Hill worked or something?

 

 

•Remove:

- Wisps; Nothing great is coming out of these besides Drill, why should these things even stay around? If you must have a gimmick that gets you through the level in a different way, make it a fun gimmick, like grinding or Parkour, AKA gimmicks that let you keep your original moveset. None of the places the Wisps went besides the drill were even logically exclusive to their respective paths; why not have more springs if you want to get into the air? Why not use your own ringdash if you want to ringdash? Why not break sections of the level with the roll if you want to get to a secret room? The wisps just don't make sense in this game, and feel like a poor excuse of tacking on Gamepad gimmick controls. Just... get rid of them, and leave the paths they would have normally opened up to the more fun, more flexible main gameplay.

 

- Planetoid levels and wonky gravity physics: Don't get me wrong, these are great for a one-time game, and they really boost it's uniqueness. But if the next game continues down this route, I'll be majorly disappointed. Not only would the idea get stale, but it would also probably have better level design than the former game, and as a result make said game look far inferior. That's one of Lost World's great pros: It's unique level design and aesthetic will make it age far slower than games like Colors or Generations, if only due to no other games in the series doing the same thing. It will always be it's own unique experience, and it should definitely stay that way.

[MegasonicZX]

• Keep:

- The art style; I absolutely love the art style used in this game, and definitely think it should be used again, though mostly for another Wii U title. Perhaps it should have a bit more realistic grit added to it, to look even more like the classic art styles, but that doesn't mean I want Green Hill Rezone again or anything like that. Just the basic aesthetic is all. You get 60 fps and 1080p graphics on the side because of it, as well. Plus, a bold, striking art style blends into each other a lot better than detailed, washed out style when speeding through it at the speed of sound, resulting in a prettier game.

 

- Spindash; This move feels like the perfect blend of the boost and spindash, and is definitely superior to all previous 3D incarnations. However, should the next game be a momentum-based game, I beg of you, SEGA, take advantage of slopes again. You've nailed carrying momentum over through ramps to make you jump farther, without slowing down to a stop, (*glares at Generations*) so all you've gotta do now is to let us take our speed and flying distance even further.

 

- Boosterless ramps and loops; You have no idea how satisfying it is to use these in a game once again, SEGA. Do it more.

 

- Rail grinding; Finally, grinding that actually feels like part of the level, rather than a scripted cutscene/quickstep section. It still retains the latter's ease of getting onto rails and staying on them, though that's not a bad thing if it still retains some challenge and requires actual input. And boy, does this game deliver on both. Honestly, this version of rail grinding feels like the perfect blend of Unleashed's easy-to-access and cinematic rails with SA2's deeper physics, controls, and challenge, and while it might not feel as satisfying to master as the latter's mechanics, it's still a lot of fun to play around with.

 

- Idle/reaction animations; I never really liked the "realistic" dying animations, so seeing Sonic go from falling onto his back and giving the player a "Dude, why" expression to the classic falling-off-the-screen animation was incredibly refreshing to me. Definitely need more of this goodness in future games: https://d3esbfg30x759i.cloudfront.net/ss/zlCfzRKVNyE5xlOE3L

 

- Deadly Six; Not necessarily as constantly recurring villains, but at the very least used to make a sequel, especially with the way the ending of this game turned out. Other than Zomom and Zeena, I really enjoyed these guys, and whether people like them or not, they at least have more going for them than the random Monster of the week past games constantly used. Their backstory should be explained a bit more, as well, should they return.

 

- Arena bosses; I don't know about what you guys think, but chase-only bosses were getting really boring after being used for five games in a row, and these bosses were a nice breath of fresh air from the usual fare. True, they were a bit easy with the charged homing attack, but they were designed rather well for Sonic Team bosses. Not saying chase bosses shouldn't appear in any more games, as they've been a part of the Sonic series since, well, his first game. Just have a lot of variety is all.

 

 

• Tweak:

- Physics; They make sense for the level design in this game, as some of the platforming is rather precise for full-out, jump-making momentum physics, and the slopes in this game are mostly made of alternate gravity sections; but for Pete's sake, if you make a regular earth-based platformer in the future, SEGA, please make rolling downhill or through loops have more inertia than this game.

 

- Bounce; Bounce is supposed to keep you momentum from your original jump, dagnabbit.

Sonic's running speed and run button; It was really useful for this game with all the crazy designs and stuff, but Sonic's running momentum seriously needs to come back for the next game. Make the transition time between walking and running a second or two longer, up his top running speed, and bring his sliding animation back for coming to a halt at top speed. Also, I don't think that there should be a run button over a walk button, or vice versa. For low-experienced players, holding a button to simply walk would be rather frustrating while platforming, and for high-experienced gamers, holding a button to run would be frustrating, since it's what they do the most. Rather, give the player the option to choose his speed setting for the button. That way, you can please both crowds.

 

- Level environment variety/consistency; This game has the most variety in a Sonic game since Sonic Adventure, and it's quite a refreshing change over Colors and Generations' rather repetitive themes for their worlds. Good job, SEGA.

However, there is one element this game really lacks in this department, and that is level progression and coherence. Why is Sonic in a floating candyland after running down a bunch of trees? Why is Sonic suddenly in a cave after running through a grassy plain in the sky? Why is an Underwater level in a Lava world? ANSWER ME!!! Sonic levels almost always had a reason for their existence and why Sonic was there after Sonic 2. Why was Sonic in a burning forest after running through a perfectly normal one? Because it was set on fire by Eggman's robots. Why was Sonic in the waterways after running through said forest? Because he fell down a ravine. Some levels pull this off to some extent, such as Frozen Factory's casino level seeping into previous levels, and Tropical Coast's transition from above the water to underwater, but most random level themes are just that: Random. This really is just a nitpick, really, but for the next game, please make you levels more logical, SEGA.

 

- Combat; Most notably the homing attack. Make the lock-on more responsive, remove the charged homing attack, assign chained homing attack to a button to be charged up, and for goodness' sake, keep the momentum you had when you first jumped. They almost had it in this game; they almost made it possible to keep moving after Homing attacking. But the distance you cover from it is so short, it barely makes any difference. Also, the kick attack positively needs to come back for games where enemies matter. I've had so much fun with this attack, it's not even funny. Though, the game should be more clear about which enemies require kick and which don't. Maybe a specific color of armor, maybe a different lock-on icon, I dunno, something to make it clearer than it was in this game.

 

Parkour; Nothing's inherently wrong with the parkour, but it could use more tweaking. Make the ledge-grab faster, wall-climbing faster and easier to spindash up, wall-running faster, yadayadayada. Now what I mostly want to see is stuff that could be added to this new mechanic. Perhaps add a swing-around-a-pole-to-get-top-speed move, like how the poles in Mushroom Hill worked or something?

 

 

•Remove:

- Wisps; Nothing great is coming out of these besides Drill, why should these things even stay around? If you must have a gimmick that gets you through the level in a different way, make it a fun gimmick, like grinding or Parkour, AKA gimmicks that let you keep your original moveset. None of the places the Wisps went besides the drill were even logically exclusive to their respective paths; why not have more springs if you want to get into the air? Why not use your own ringdash if you want to ringdash? Why not break sections of the level with the roll if you want to get to a secret room? The wisps just don't make sense in this game, and feel like a poor excuse of tacking on Gamepad gimmick controls. Just... get rid of them, and leave the paths they would have normally opened up to the more fun, more flexible main gameplay.

 

- Planetoid levels and wonky gravity physics: Don't get me wrong, these are great for a one-time game, and they really boost it's uniqueness. But if the next game continues down this route, I'll be majorly disappointed. Not only would the idea get stale, but it would also probably have better level design than the former game, and as a result make said game look far inferior. That's one of Lost World's great pros: It's unique level design and aesthetic will make it age far slower than games like Colors or Generations, if only due to no other games in the series doing the same thing. It will always be it's own unique experience, and it should definitely stay that way.

I can agree with these (especially the one for the kick attack) fixing most of these things would really make the next go around at something like this (minus the planetoids) alot more fun.

 

Also, if sega is going to do gimmick levels I think they should pretty much only have them as either extra's or just 1 or 2 throughout the game since while I do like the idea it does seem a bit overdone in this game (at least from playing the 3ds version).

[StaticMania]

- Idle/reaction animations; I never really liked the "realistic" dying animations, so seeing Sonic go from falling onto his back and giving the player a "Dude, why" expression to the classic falling-off-the-screen animation was incredibly refreshing to me. Definitely need more of this goodness in future games: https://d3esbfg30x759i.cloudfront.net/ss/zlCfzRKVNyE5xlOE3L

 

The dying animations weren't "realistic", they were just him dying. I don't think that him just touching a badnik would cause him to twirl backwards in the sky and die, bounce backwards spin around and die, or just fly backwards in general.

[Sky]

Yeah I hear ya there. I'm still trying to get how that works.

The longer you lock onto an enemy, the stronger your homing attack becomes.

[SilentDoom]

There are lots of potential discussion elements here, but I think for this post I'd like to focus solely on the combat.  Whilst I do enjoy the fact that they tried to spice up the combat and give it a little more variety, the execution left quite a lot to be desired and ended up being convoluted for a good few people.  The main reason is simply due to the fact that there are times where Sonic is punished for attacking an enemy when it isn't clear.  Let's take these enemies as some quick examples:

 

 

 

You know instinctively not to jump on these enemies due to the fact that they are surrounded by spikes and basic logic dictates that spikes hurt.  They always hurt in any video game unless you have suitable protection.  You either have to tackle them in a different fashion (rolling into the former enemy) or you have to wait until the spikes retract/go away (the latter enemy).  The context as to how you attack these enemies makes sense.

 

In Lost World however this is not the case.  How are you supposed to know to kick a Crabmeat to topple it for example?  They aren't any larger or more domineering than, say, a Motobug (heck both originated from the same game and could be defeated simply by jumping on them before).  Yet you go for the Homing Attack on one and you get hurt and lose your rings.  That's pretty poor design because there's no logical context as to why this Crabmeat was able to hurt you.  And this is only one example.  The flying kick in this game, whilst adds variety to the combat, also serves to make it more convoluted needlessly.  

 

Consequently I don't feel the flying kick attack or the charged homing attack should stay as there are better ways to make the combat more varied without making them finicky or nonsensical.  Here's what I feel should be done:

 

1) Only punish players for attacking an enemy if it makes sense in context

 

As aforementioned, a player shouldn't be punished for attacking an enemy in a certain way, but rather because the enemy has logical protection against your attack such as spikes, an electrical shield or when the enemy is actually attacking you themselves.  Even with this in mind angles need to be taken into account.  If the enemy has spikes on the top, rolling into them from the front or back should defeat them.  If they have throw an attack from the front, weave behind.  The Crawl's in Lost World actually were the best example of this.  They had shields that blocked you from attacking from the front or overhead.  Consequently you had to either get behind them to attack or kick an enemy into them.  

 

2) Reward players for precision

 

In Lost World Egg Pawns required two homing attacks, a powered up homing attack or a single kick to defeat.  Though what I want to focus on here is the fact that a normal homing attack would simply stun the Pawn.  I feel this idea should be carried onto most enemies in the game.  The homing attack is quick and efficient.  It moves quickly and doesn't require much in the way of skill or precision.  As a result I feel it should be the weakest form of attacking an enemy.  As a result enemies should only go down in one shot if you're using a more precise attack such as a jump, a melee attack, the bounce attack or something that requires charging such as the spindash or light speed attack.  Which actually leads me onto my next point...

 

3) Make the core system more like Sonic Advance 1 but in 3D

 

Advance 1's engine feels like a direct expansion and evolution of the classic games (the only game to actually do this).  It takes all the moves you had in Sonic 3&K and adds a couple more (most notably in the form of a melee attack).  This system should be transferred to the 3D games.  Sonic should focus around 3 buttons.  A jump, a crouch and one more action button for attacking and such.  Crouching would allow you to curl into a ball whilst moving, rev up the spindash whilst mashing the jump button and maybe a bounce attack whilst in midair.  The action button would be used for your melee attack on the ground, homing attack in the air and maybe even a light speed attack if held whilst crouching (just spitballing here).  Sounds convoluted at first but really it's a mix of Advance 1, Adventure 2 and Lost World and if everything is explained properly it wouldn't be a hard system to adjust to and I feel it would be a nicely balanced system as each attack would have its set of pros and cons but every attack could be used to eventually defeat an enemy unless given a logical context.

 

These are the things I feel really should be done to not only make combat more dynamic but balanced and involving.  The homing attack isn't your god tool, the best tool in your arsenal.  It becomes more of a movement tool if anything.  However, it would also have the potential to open up even more possibilities if it were to put a foe into a stun state like the Egg Pawns in Lost World...

 

4) The stun state

 

This here is pure spitballing, but what if you were able to interact with enemies differently whilst they were stunned from your homing attack?  You go up to a badnik such as Motobug for example, stun it with your homing attack, approach it and press the action button whilst next to it and begin to ride on top of it for example, allowing you to drive it into other badniks.  Another example would be something like this badnik from CD

 

 

You stun this one, use the action command right near it and grab it's laser weapon thing whilst on top of it to start shooting stuff for a brief period.  Maybe defeat some badniks or better yet open up a different area that was previously inaccessible to Sonic.  There's the potential for some really interesting interaction here that would not only add another layer of depth to the gameplay but it would make Sonic FEEL really cool.  You'd feel like you were playing as the Sonic from the CD amv or even one of the TV shows for example.  It would really empower the player whilst in control of Sonic and honestly (as much as I cringe saying this) would make you feel like a bit of a badass.

 

Though as I said, the first three points I think are key to focus on.  They're the most important for establishing a core moveset for Sonic that he can use for basically every game with one or two adjustments here and there because that's something Sonic REALLY needs (especially after Lost World completely reinventing the formula).  Mario has had his core established for ages now and it's part of the reason why his games are so successful.  He runs, he jumps on enemies, he can crouch and has a few other different jumping methods and he has varying attacks between each main 3D game.

 

But yeah, pretty long post considering it was only focused on one element.  I think I got a little carried away .-.  

[Blue Blood]

^^^

 

Apart from the ideas about stunning, since I feel that that over complicates matters, I love that post. If an enemy can defeated, it should just go down in one hit. And if just has to be stunned for a little while in order to serve another purpose, go the ShTH route and allow it to be attacked normally.

 

Lost World actually did much better than any other Sonic game since the classics in terms of enemy design. For the first time since then we had a whole host of enemies with different and potentially dangerous attack patterns that made you consider your approach.

 

Sol? Shit shit shit attack him quickly or keep jumping so he doesn't get you.

Crawltron? Keep moving and don't get too close, then take him down when he misses his attack.

Crabmeat? A simple bop to the head oh wait this isn't what's supposed to happen that's crap design

Ballhog? Dodge the bombs as you make your way close

 

So long as they get rid of the kick and charged homing attack, both of which are massively unecessary, I think they'll have the combat side of future Sonic games down to a tee. The multi lock-on is pretty fun as well, and especially well used on the Caterkillers. That can definitely stay in future games (IMO give everyone a homing attack but eave the multi lock-on as Sonic-only).

Edited November 4, 2013 by Blue Blood

[Phos]

Watching videos of Lost World I can tell that they didn't really make the curving gravity thing actually work correctly. In Super Mario Galaxy, pretty much any point in the level has a definite gravitational pull. In Sonic Lost World, it just follows Sonic's current orientation and doesn't change while he's in the air. To be honest it almost seems as though they just took the ordinary ability of Sonic to traverse walls and just tarted it up for this purpose. Think Sonic 06 physics but intentional. That said i don't think the curvy planet thing was a good fit for a sonic game.

Which reminds me, I have no idea if this was intentional but the parkour seems to be serving the same purpose as the high speed wall sticking did in the genesis games, but is doing it in a much less elegant way, and a way that already exists in many other games as well. I just don't get the idea that it's a good fit.

Ok, run button. They get that Sonic is also a platformer in addition to whatever else it is, but it was never really that precise of one. Really, when the genesis games went and demanded a lot of precision from the player, it seldom went well. There were frequently smallish platforms but they weren't often set up in a way that demanded precision. You could often overshoot to no ill effects. Oh yeah...

And you also had the counterintuitive but actually brilliant design choice on your side to give Sonic double acceleration in the air. The long and short of it is that you end up not having to plan your jumps all that much. In so many recent games they've just given sonic so much air friction, it's like you're jumping in soup.

[Tyranno]

I think the combat system is fine. I like the flying kick. But I agree that it needs to be more intuitive. Stuff like the giant armored Ball Hogs where you have to kick the bombs out of their shells and into them are more of what I'd like to see; you can figure that out partly by looking at them and partly by trying things out. That's a better approach than what they did with the likes of Crabmeat.

[Dizcrybe]

First off, no more wisps. Seriously, they don't need to be a thing in these games anymore. They weren't even that interesting in SLW.

 

Second, keep the parkour and try to improve it. I liked it, but I don't think it was as good as it could've been.

 

Third, don't give the game such a huge difficulty spike. If I wanna play something ball-bustingly hard, I'll play Ghosts 'n' Goblins or IWBTG or something. I'm all for challenge, but too much is too much.

[nintega137]

I haven't played the game yet, but from what I've seen of the parkour, it looks like it could be better.(Subject to change.) I mean parkour is a pretty intricate thing in real life. Like this for instance.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMppD-bUNWo

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spGDbyxDu4k

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpLCoZKnIq4

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLOedRHrUrE

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aiQ6rSVzS4

[stan423321]

Contrary to many of you there, I'm gonna defend the charged homing attack. It actually makes a lot of sense in-universe, when Sonic looks at the target longer before the jump he can hit it more precisely. Again, some of the enemy ideas are alright, some are not.

 

I'm not the fan of the parkour system as it was implemented in the game. Running on the walls sideways fits Sonic well, but sticking to them is plain absurdal. Instead, natural terrain formations (sand curves?) and momentum-based push-in (springs from the other side) should be used as they did before, only with less hand holding. Running up the walls is basically stealing a part of Knuckles' moveset and again could be implemented by more physics-based solutions. So reintroduce classic physics and replace run button with walk button. I'm OK with ledge grabbing as long as it slows you down.

 

Speaking of springs, those level part transitions are jarring. Use rainbow ramps or something to make these a little more active and less cinematic. If this helps reducing length of transitions, reduce the size of parts.

 

Wisps were cool-to-okay in Colors, but their SLW implementation feels tacked on. If one chooses to utilise them in level design I'm not gonna stop them. I would insist however on using them so they enforce choice between paths, in later levels mixed with a choice between Wisps. That said, it would be far easier to make an interesting game with shields and/or multiple characters. 

 

Boss fight shouldn't take seconds, they should take at least two minutes for experienced players, assuming they're not glitching. Reducing chase bosses was a good idea though.

 

And you also had the counterintuitive but actually brilliant design choice on your side to give Sonic double acceleration in the air.

If I remember correctly, this particular point was mentioned as a part of classic Sonic physics on Retro wiki.

[thatguyfrom03]

I'm also a fan of the charged homing attack. Taking out the massive caterkilllers with one charged homing followed by a kick is fulfilling.I'd argue people only consider it "bad" b/c it was never explained. Maybe next game have it charge it by holding the A button for max jump height when close to an enemy. 

 

Instead of the kick I'd much rather have an "action button" with a special target/cursor similar to what SilentDoom suggested button. I'd also have more variable situations to use it as opposed to the "stun state." For example, take the Sonic CD badnik in Silent Doom's post. If you Spin Dash towards it, this special cursor will briefly pop up. Hit the action button and Sonic uses the enemies sloped shape as a ramp for his Spin Dash for airtime. How you approach an enemy whether slowly, full speed, jumping, rolling, opens up opportunity and encourages the player to try new things.  And you can still just bop most enemies with a jump.

[Diogenes]

Contrary to many of you there, I'm gonna defend the charged homing attack. It actually makes a lot of sense in-universe, when Sonic looks at the target longer before the jump he can hit it more precisely.

Good game design doesn't come from just following in-universe logic wherever it leads, though.

[Tani Coyote]

Honestly I don't see the charged homing attack as any different from the fact you could sometimes choose to hit a boss in quick succession with a boost immediately after a homing attack in other games.

I do agree some dislike towards newer moves probably comes from poor explanation... so I'm definitely in favor of getting rid of the "touch the Gamepad to get some help" feature and bringing either a tutorial stage (optional, however) back, or simply returning to the Colors method of having the help bubbles in the actual stage, but easily skipped.

[Chaos Warp]

Yeah, I think that tutorial stages should be brought back, but they should never be forced upon the player. At the beginning of the game, it should go "Do you want to go to the tutorial stage to learn the mechanics?" and give you the option to either go do it or not do it. That way, it doesn't intrude on people who don't want that, and then it becomes the player's fault if they complain about the mechanics not being taught well enough since..........well.......................it gave you the option to go learn them at the beginning. 

[Diogenes]

Clear and direct tutorial levels/areas are a good thing, but I think they should be supplemental to the "normal" levels teaching you how to play. Design an obstacle that requires the player to understand an important mechanic to progress, allow them the freedom to experiment with how to solve it (that is, don't kill them for getting it wrong), and make sure there's clear feedback for what works and what doesn't.

Like, if you wanted to teach the homing attack for the first time, have a chain of 3 respawning/indestructable enemies leading up to a higher ledge, with that being the only way to continue. The target appearing on them when you jump near them tells the player there's something special they can do with them, and the motion of the homing attack tells them they're doing something right. If they're really worried about it they can put a button prompt, but that's all you should need.

[MegasonicZX]

I actually really want the kick attack to stay, I can see it being used for some interesting things but as others said, enemies that are pretty basic like the crabmeats definitely shouldn't require it be used on them but on on another enemy where it would actually make sense.

[thatguyfrom03]

I actually really want the kick attack to stay, I can see it being used for some interesting things but as others said, enemies that are pretty basic like the crabmeats definitely shouldn't require it be used on them but on on another enemy where it would actually make sense.

 

Regarding Crabmeats in particular, I beg the question, was getting hit by them really that bad? I thought it was an interesting surprise from a 22 year old enemy. You get hit once, learn, and go about taking them out. I got hit 1000 times in my first few runs of Sonic 1. I don't see the big deal about taking damage from one sneaky enemy.

 

Another thing. The multi-lock on needs to go. I thought it would be awesome, but its too random and can really screw you over.

[Blue Blood]

The multi lock-on didn't screw me over once in the Wii U version. At worst, I acted too soon locking on to and then homing on the vertical stacks 4 Orbinauts in WH2 and FF4. On the 3DS version though, it was constantly sending me all over the place, into pits and backwards over HA chains, leaving me unable to progress normally

[Scar]

I just don't like the fact that its delayed. In a Sonic game, I feel there is a need for a little immediacy. I want the Homing attack to be direct, instantaneous and snappy (with a satisfying sound effect). How it functions in Unleashed through Generations is perfectly fine, though I myself have some desires to see it modified in one specific way.

What I mean by this, is I want Sonic to bounce off enemies after completing a homing attack, like he does when he homes in on a balloon. That is to say his momentum is preserved after the attack.

This of course would need refinement so it doesn't fuck the player over. The angle of rebound depends on the angle of impact.

I'm sure I've explained this in a thread a few years back....

 

Also, Unleashed got the Tutorial stage perfect. Windmill Isle Act 1 was basically just a level that introduced Sonic's basic controls. The important thing about it though, was that it was constructed like a real level, just much shorter (it was even ranked). It didn't beat you over the head with information like Heroes' Sea Gate, and I think that's essential.

If it could be improved....I'd have it be longer than WI Act 1 ended up being. After the the initial section where the basic controls were introduced, I'd basically have a full length level. An easy one mind, with basically nil chance of death (unless you're REALLY bad), so no bottomless pits at all...In any case, the full level after the intro segment, would basically just give the player some space to test out the moveset in a couple of different circumstances.

[Tails spin]

I know some people here may not agree with me but Windy Hill Tutorial on the 3DS is an excellent tutorial and level in of itself.

[MegasonicZX]

Yeah, it really eases you into the mechanics of the game.

 

Also, is it just me or does the charged home attack charge quicker on the wii u version than on the 3ds one.

[Tani Coyote]

I just don't like the fact that its delayed. In a Sonic game, I feel there is a need for a little immediacy. I want the Homing attack to be direct, instantaneous and snappy (with a satisfying sound effect).

I think this is really a case of Your Mileage May Vary. It only takes a few extra seconds for the Homing Attack to charge, which to me is no different from how the fight against Egg Nega Wisp and Nega Emperor Wisp (I'm calling it that) had slow-motion homing attacks against Eggman.

The best part is the charged homing attack is seldom required barring extremely powerful enemies, so it doesn't really break the flow and is very useful as a climactic move (i.e. the final blow to Zavok).