Interview with Ken Pontac & Warren Graf.

[Scar]

So... why am I not at all surprised by this?

 

Eesh. This, to me, only says that Sonic Team aren't interested in Sonic storylines being anything more than a Saturday morning cartoon affair. If they wanted anything like the games had up until Unleashed (which I think was the starting point of the "soft reboot" ), then surely they would have pointed the new writers in the direction of those games to show them what they were after. I love Pontac and Graff's way of bringing the characters to life, and Lost World's story in itself it actually enjoyable. But three times now they've missed the mark when it comes to giving the plot any kind of substance or background. The games have become a million times less engaging as a result.

 

I think the problem is with Sonic Team/SEGA , not the writers. I'm looking at this point:

 

Sonic Team created the Deadly Six, as we all expected. It does make me think that Pontac and Graff moreso just write the script for a scenario that they're given, which would explain the total lack of clarity concerning Lost World's plot.

 

It would be very interesting to see what the result would be if these guys were to be properly briefed on the chronology of the series, and then were to work with Sonic Team in writing a plot and characters from the ground up.

 

 

This is pretty much as I suspected. They write the script, but Sonic Team create the general structure that the writers then have to fill in. They're doing a damn good job though, given the limitations. I'm sure they themselves would love to have a greater input in developing the game and story (they are writers after all...), but until Sonic Team themselves are at ease with the prospect of having a more elaborate narrative, that just won't happen. 

 

The impetus needs to come from Sonic Team themselves. 

[Blue Blood]

Unleashed had no real connection to previous games, had barely any of the cast show up, Tails and Amy showed up but didn't do much, and the whole middle section of the game is just coasting along with nothing really happening. I don't really see much of a drop in quality aside from SLoW having a weaker climax, and it makes up for that in the characterization.

 

The main difference, aside from the climax as you rightly mentioned, is the background information of which Unleashed has plenty and SLW has none. We learn the what the deal with Dark and Light Gaia is, how Eggman came to discover it all, what the temples do and throughout the game something is happening by way of putting the world back together (even if little-else happens during the middle of the game). SLW on the other hand... who are the Zeti, what are their names, what's with the conch, what's the Lost Hex and... how did any of this even come together to make a plot?

 

I'm not saying that Unleashed is perfection by any standard, I'm merely saying it's generally (read: not entirely) better than what's come since. And I'm also not going to get into an argument where you just try to dismiss every single point I make, because frankly I just don't have the patience for that any more. And it's not really the subject of this discussion either.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Blue Blood

[Badnik Mechanic]

This probably would also explain the following.

 

* Why the wisps are in the game with no explanation or reason other than 'because they are.'

 

* Tails once again knowing everything... or as I'm going to call this from now on 'Deus Ex Fox-ina.'

 

And going back a few years, how the Knuckles Rouge love thing ends before it even starts. How Eggman finds out about whatever the power/evil scheme is he wants to do.

 

It is pretty bad, if they're going to include stories then the writers really do need more to go on than browsing random websites, especially since so many contain false information and how so many have focus on archie characters which have no place in the games at all.

 

 

Also...

 

 

 

There are some hype about Sonic Adventure 3 right now,

 

There are no hype about Sonic Adventure 3 right now.

[JezMM]

What bothers me most is how the Deadly Six are just evil for the sake of it.  Even a shitty villian like Black Doom was the hero of his own story - he was trying to secure an endless energy source for his own species by using human beings as living batteries.

 

But the Deadly Six decide to drain the world of energy and become all powerful beings for revenge against Eggman?  And then what exactly?

[Salamander]

Not briefing them on the history of Sonic I totally understand, as it's just so much convoluted, tone-inappropriate dead weight that really isn't relevant any more.  But not giving them any guidance on characterisation?  The writers having to use Wikipedia and YouTube to get a feel for the characters they're meant to be writing?  That's really quite poor.  No wonder we don't have plots any more - just comedy scenes breaking up the gameplay.  Nobody making the games is actually interested in story, just in zany cartooniness meant to appeal to their idea of the child who's meant to be buying the game.  I guess we can say goodbye to there being good writing in the spin-offs, too, which at least tended to get that right.

[Kuzu]

 

 

* Tails once again knowing everything... or as I'm going to call this from now on 'Deus Ex Fox-ina.'

 

 

What makes this one particularly bad is how in one cutscene, Tails is shown of incapable of messing with Eggman's tech and it almost gets him killed as a result, but then in the final cutscene he knows how to reverse engineer his machine, something even Eggman couldn't do? The fuck?

 

The Characterization that was presented I liked for the most part, but plot points come right the fuck out of nowhere with no context or explanation. It just kinda reinforces that they can do whatever the needs of the plot demands.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[Diogenes]

The main difference, aside from the climax as you rightly mentioned, is the background information of which Unleashed has plenty and SLW has none. We learn the what the deal with Dark and Light Gaia is, how Eggman came to discover it all, what the temples do and throughout the game something is happening by way of putting the world back together (even if little-else happens during the middle of the game). SLW on the other hand... who are the Zeti, what are their names, what's with the conch, what's the Lost Hex and... how did any of this even come together to make a plot?

Background information doesn't make a story. I don't really need to know what the deal is with Lost Hex to enjoy SLoW any more than I needed to know where the Little Planet came from to enjoy CD. We know enough about the Six for them to be a credible threat; they're a bunch of strong, nasty dudes who want more power, and were given an opportunity. I sure as hell don't need to know where the conch came from because it's not important past the second zone; whether Eggman found it or made it or whatever doesn't have any bearing on the story.

And I don't think that's really detrimental to the story, because the story isn't really about them. This isn't a story like SA2's, '06's, or Unleashed's, where the focus is on the new character(s); this time the focus is on Sonic and Tails (and secondarily Eggman) and the Six serve to facilitate that story.

What bothers me most is how the Deadly Six are just evil for the sake of it.  Even a shitty villian like Black Doom was the hero of his own story - he was trying to secure an endless energy source for his own species by using human beings as living batteries.

 

But the Deadly Six decide to drain the world of energy and become all powerful beings for revenge against Eggman?  And then what exactly?

Continue ruling Lost Hex? Edited November 9, 2013 by Diogenes

[Kuzu]

^Well why hype them up as this big bad group that are so bad that Sonic & Eggman have to defeat if they're just gonna be fodder?

[Diogenes]

Dunno. Miscommunication between the writers, the marketing team, and the rest of whoever's involved?

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

You know what would have fixed it all if they had a decent sized, fully fleshed out MANUAL that would have fixed that

[Celestia]

What makes this one particularly bad is how in one cutscene, Tails is shown of incapable of messing with Eggman's tech and it almost gets him killed as a result, but then in the final cutscene he knows how to reverse engineer his machine, something even Eggman couldn't do? The fuck?

The point of the Cubot+Crabmeat cutscene was that Tails wasn't paying attention to what he was doing, he just wanted to prove he was better. That's partly why it didn't work out.

 

Not to mention there's a difference between throwing two things together randomly (and not showing the same amount of care Tails usually would) and reprogramming something like the Extractor.

 

 

^Well why hype them up as this big bad group that are so bad that Sonic & Eggman have to defeat if they're just gonna be fodder?

Because they...were? Although not necessarily on their own, which is why I can see where you're coming from. What made them such a threat through most of the game was their control over Eggman's machines, most importantly the Extractor.

[Kuzu]

The point of the Cubot+Crabmeat cutscene was that Tails wasn't paying attention to what he was doing, he just wanted to prove he was better. That's partly why it didn't work out.

 

Not to mention there's a difference between throwing two things together randomly (and not showing the same amount of care Tails usually would) and reprogramming something like the Extractor.

But that's exactly what I'm talking about tho: You mean to tell me, Tails is so careless that he can't even pay attention when he's putting a disembodied head on a body, but he's tentative enough to reprogram a machine to do something that not even its creator could do?

Does this make any type of sense.

 

 

Because they...were? Although not necessarily on their own, which is why I can see where you're coming from. What made them such a threat through most of the game was their control over Eggman's machines, most importantly the Extractor.

But you could have put Eggman in the same role and still get the same result, so why introduce these new bad guys if they're going to act no different from our main antagonist? It should be noted that I do like the Deadly Six individually, but they lack so much context that it makes me wonder why did they even bother introducing them in the first place. If you're going to introduce new characters, its a pretty good idea to establish them so the audience can care about them, but Lost World doesn't do that.

[Zavok the SpinningSilver]

You know what would have fixed it all if they had a decent sized, fully fleshed out MANUAL that would have fixed that

 

Dunno about you, but I'd rather the game's story explain the necessary details and background info rather than have it be a case of All There In The Manual.

 

Besides, only a few people really ever read manuals for games anymore (I do, but that's not the point.), so that wouldn't really change much.

[Chaos Incarnate]

I don't really care much, to be honest. I'm surprised Sega didn't give them more material to study up on, but as long as the story turns out great, that's what matters most. Just keep them far away from doing an Adventure game if they really don't know anything about it (in case another Adventure game is ever even made.) 

[Diogenes]

But that's exactly what I'm talking about tho: You mean to tell me, Tails is so careless that he can't even pay attention when he's putting a disembodied head on a body, but he's tentative enough to reprogram a machine to do something that not even its creator could do?

Does this make any type of sense.

Yeah, when he's doing a quick hack job to spite Eggman, as opposed to dealing with very important equipment once his head is clear.

But you could have put Eggman in the same role and still get the same result, so why introduce these new bad guys if they're going to act no different from our main antagonist? It should be noted that I do like the Deadly Six individually, but they lack so much context that it makes me wonder why did they even bother introducing them in the first place. If you're going to introduce new characters, its a pretty good idea to establish them so the audience can care about them, but Lost World doesn't do that.

If Eggman had stayed the antagonist throughout the game, we wouldn't have Sonic messing up and having to deal with the fallout, or Tails feeling like he was being replaced by Eggman. And those are the important parts of the story.

[Your Vest Friend]

Yeah, when he's doing a quick hack job to spite Eggman, as opposed to dealing with very important equipment once his head is clear.

If Eggman had stayed the antagonist throughout the game, we wouldn't have Sonic messing up and having to deal with the fallout, or Tails feeling like he was being replaced by Eggman. And those are the important parts of the story.

 

That's very debatable. 

[Celestia]

He was careless at the time because he was pissed at Sonic for ignoring him back in Desert Ruins and then proceeding to not trust that Tails could reprogram Eggman's machine. Seeing Tails actually fail at something mechanically was surprising, but it made sense considering his emotional state at the time.
 

But you could have put Eggman in the same role and still get the same result, so why introduce these new bad guys if they're going to act no different from our main antagonist? It should be noted that I do like the Deadly Six individually, but they lack so much context that it makes me wonder why did they even bother introducing them in the first place. If you're going to introduce new characters, its a pretty good idea to establish them so the audience can care about them, but Lost World doesn't do that.

Because as much of an asshole he is, we can trust Eggman to not completely kill off Earth. Sonic (and the audience) wouldn't have taken it as seriously even later on in the game, and we'd have Colours and Generations all over again.

[Diogenes]

That's very debatable.

I don't think so? I mean, I think that's clearly what the story focuses on, as opposed to the Six.

[Kuzu]

Yeah, when he's doing a quick hack job to spite Eggman, as opposed to dealing with very important equipment once his head is clear.

But Tails is reprogramming the machine to spite Eggman too, in fact he makes fun of him for the fact that he learned how to do so. And it still doesn't explain when or how he learned to do so.

 

If Eggman had stayed the antagonist throughout the game, we wouldn't have Sonic messing up and having to deal with the fallout, or Tails feeling like he was being replaced by Eggman. And those are the important parts of the story.

 

 

But none of those plot points are addressed either; Sonic acknowledges he messes up, but never shows that he learned anything from it as a similar situation never shows up afterwards. Tails feeling like he's betrayed by Eggman is a good plot point, but the change is very abrupt with no buildup to it.

 

There's also the fact that this still doesn't establish the Deadly Six or let us know anything about them; I understand focusing on the long standing characters, but the audience should at least know enough about the villains to care about them.

He was careless at the time because he was pissed at Sonic for ignoring him back in Desert Ruins and then proceeding to not trust that Tails could reprogram Eggman's machine. Seeing Tails actually fail at something mechanically was surprising, but it made sense considering his emotional state at the time.

But then doesn't that kinda prove Sonic right if Tails can't even do something as simple as attach a robot head to a body? If that's what they were going for they should have stuck with it instead of Tails suddenly being able to know everything about Eggman's machine enough to reprogram it. In fact, Tails is the one who convinces Sonic to trust Eggman in the first place. If Tails could already reprogram the machine, why did they even need Eggman at all?

 

Because as much of an asshole he is, we can trust Eggman to not completely kill off Earth. Sonic (and the audience) wouldn't have taken it as seriously even later on in the game, and we'd have Colours and Generations all over again.

Your missing my point, which is about the Deadly Six, not Sonic, Tails, and Eggman. They're still not developed, we still don't learn anything about them or Lost Hex, and we're given no closure with them. So I'm left wondering why these characters were introduced in the first place if they're basically just glorified mooks?

[Diogenes]

But Tails is reprogramming the machine to spite Eggman too, in fact he makes fun of him for the fact that he learned how to do so.

But he's doing it primarily to save the world. Spiting Eggman is just a bonus, it's not what he's focused on.

And it still doesn't explain when or how he learned to do so.

He's a genius, the end.

But none of those plot points are addressed either; Sonic acknowledges he messes up, but never shows that he learned anything from it as a similar situation never shows up afterwards.

Sonic was impulsive, he acted on his own instead of listening to his friend, and he fucked things up because of that. And the fallout of that involves losing everyone else he has to rely on in the game; Tails gets captured, he loses contact with Amy and Knuckles as the life is being sucked out of them, and even Eggman seems to die. And in the end, he learns that he should put more trust in his friends (Tails in particular). There are surely ways to write the message stronger, but at the same time I'm glad they didn't feel the need to beat us over the head with it, Heroes-style.

Tails feeling like he's betrayed by Eggman is a good plot point, but the change is very abrupt with no buildup to it.

I think it was paced well enough.

There's also the fact that this still doesn't establish the Deadly Six or let us know anything about them; I understand focusing on the long standing characters, but the audience should at least know enough about the villains to care about them.

I feel I was made to care about them as much as they need to be cared about; they're functional, amusing, but ultimately disposable villains.

[Kuzu]

Alright, I seriously don't feel like doing another back and forth argument with you, especially if you're just gonna keep telling me why I'm "wrong"; I liked Lost World's plot, I really did, but that doesn't excuse the mistakes it has that are basic for any storytelling medium and I don't feel we should ignore them simply because its better than before.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[Diogenes]

I'm not ignoring anything, I just don't think they're as deep as you imply they are.

[MegasonicZX]

I guess if I can chime in on this it does seem kind of weird how sonic suddenly trusts eggman after one cutscene when both him and tails were pretty much against the whole thing in the one before it (at tropical coast).

[Blitz 'n Burst]

I don't think Ken and Warren just wrote the script. They were talking about how amazing it is to actually be able to handle the game's story. From what I can tell they were given a basic outline of the story and allowed to fill in the blanks however they wanted. At the very least they were allowed to plot out the actual cutscenes instead of being handed an already-existing one and having to make do with what they ahd.

 

Yeah, when he's doing a quick hack job to spite Eggman, as opposed to dealing with very important equipment once his head is clear.
If Eggman had stayed the antagonist throughout the game, we wouldn't have Sonic messing up and having to deal with the fallout, or Tails feeling like he was being replaced by Eggman. And those are the important parts of the story.

I hardly think a few lines of dialogue from one cutscene that was never brought up again qualify as "an important part of the story"

 

Neither does Sonic messing up and making up for his mistakes, because he doesn't. He rushes in, fucks up, feels bad about it, then does absolutely nothing. Then in Silent Forest he rushes in, fucks up, feels bad, and still does absolutely fucking nothing. They bring these issues up and make you want to know how this turns out, but you don't. Plot points are brought in with no buildup whatsoever before being completely forgotten about in the next cutscene. We never get to see Sonic learn from his mistakes and be less impulsive, or Tails getting over his jealousy and starting to respect Eggman, or Sonic learning to respect Tails. Issues are brought up but they're never resolved. That isn't character development, it's a load of people doing stuff.

[Doc]

I dunno, but I think people are going off-topic.

 

Anyways, I would've loved to see how Roger asked Pontac the questions. Imagine if Ken Pontac started to watch Sonic Dissected as well. Hahahahahahaha

...

That would never happen :4 ANYWAYS, 

I think the writers have improved from Sonic Colours to Lost World, in my opinion. It's still flawed though.