FULL interview with Ken Pontac

[Kuzu]

I think when people are talking about the series history, it doesn't really include games post-Sa2.

Because let's use some common sense, what self respecting Sonic fan would want to relive those games.

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[Wraith]

I don't know, when people talk about how the older era of Sonic was better story wise, I often assume they're including the entire adventure era. Not just SA1 and SA2. 

[Kuzu]

And I ask once again, what kind of self respecting Sonic fan would say that they should bring back things from 06.

It's like going in garbage and trying to make use of shit.

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[azoo]

Multiple different one-note phases. :/

But seriously, for like...an entire decade before SLoW I see nothing really worth building on. If you're talking about the Adventures, maybe, but again that's well over a decade ago, I don't see them being able to snap their fingers and recapture that magic any more than they could pull off SA3. I think Pontac and Graff did pretty well this time and I want them to keep trying and hopefully improving, and not get shouted down and booted out just because they aren't writing exactly like everyone's favorite game.

And some of the complaints just seem so silly, like hating how Sonic isn't eager to work with Eggman at first, just because he has worked with him in a few dire situations before.

 

That's what I've been talking about this whole time, so yeah.  

 

Yeah, it's a long stretch for that to come back, but the reason I keep showing disdain is because I know Warren and Ken are definitely capable enough to do something like that again for the character portrayals and story if Sega loosened their leash a bit and they did their research. They're certainly talented individuals, and are legit funny when they get the chance to be; I just want to see them treat things with more care, paying more mind to consistency with past games. 

 

And yes, by past games I mean "everything up to SA2". :V

[Frogging101]

Looks like pretty much everyone totally misunderstood what I was saying and put words into my mouth, from which stemmed the rest of this discussion. So, allow me to set the record straight. I didn't say they should have made more references. I honestly don't care if they reference past events or not, whatever. I also didn't say I dislike the direction they took with the story or the character interactions. On the contrary, I thought the characterization and interactions in this game were charming and had much more depth than previous titles, and I'd like to see more of that.

What I meant was that "going in blind" as they did was a risky move that could have easily screwed up the continuity further. It didn't happen thankfully, but the probability of that happening is inversely proportional to how much one studies the source material, and proportional to the complexity of the story. The complexity was low, so it didn't really happen. In other words, I think that if they had opted for a deeper story, they may have run into contradictions and stuff because they didn't adequately study their source material.

[Kuzu]

Well since the series isn't really that complex with its plots nowadays, research isn't really an issue. Even so, I don't think extensive knowledge of the series past would be necessary to tell a more complex plot.

It would definitely help for them to do research, but it's not a requirement

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[Scar]

No game is ever going to feel like SA1 or SA2 cause we're never going to be same people we were back then, again. As far as I'm concerned, SEGA could recycle the characterisation in SA1, with some differences and you know what....We probably wouldn't like it.

I never had nostalgia for either Adventure, cause I played them for the first time, when I was nearly 17 and I seriously wasn't overly impressed by characterisation or dialogue. Couldn't actually stand to watch most of the cutscenes, they made me cringe so hard....Maybe except Shadow in SA2. I guess they were better than what came afterwards, but that's really not saying much is it.

Why am I saying all this?

Well Pontac and Graff will never be able to recreate that Adventure "magic". They don't have nostalgia for it like we do. What they are doing well, is a damn good job of adding some spice to the really boring Sonic characters we've been getting this last decade.

Its different to how many of you folks remember Sonic, as he was back during the Adventure days, but that's long gone. This stuff isn't bad. In fact its actually pretty good, given what little they have to go off of. It saddens me greatly, to think that two guys who barely know anything about Sonic, were able to get the character better than the people who've been making his games for the last decade.

And once again, I'd like to point out, that the limiting factor here, is SEGA. Pontac and Graff write the script, but most else is done by SEGA. Better stories need to come from Sonic Team themselves, and the writers should be included in development process, not given an empty shell to fill in.

[Kuzu]

I don't get why anyone who seems to so much as "like" the Adventure games is simply dismissed as having on tight knit nostalgia goggles. Is it really hard to imagine that people may genuinely like them for what they are.

That attitude really annoys me.

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[azoo]

No game is ever going to feel like SA1 or SA2 cause we're never going to be same people we were back then, again. As far as I'm concerned, SEGA could recycle the characterisation in SA1, with some differences and you know what....We probably wouldn't like it.

 

I can't say I wouldn't.

 

Also,

 

 

I don't get why anyone who seems to so much as "like" the Adventure games is simply dismissed as having on tight knit nostalgia goggles. Is it really hard to imagine that people may genuinely like them for what they are.

That attitude really annoys me.

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What Yakuzu said.

 

This is getting a bit grating as an argument.. and its not really convincing me any further that Warren and Ken are doing a great job without a bit of research. I never found the characters embarrassing or boring in those games; if there was anything embarrassing about it it'd be some of the voicework and script (or in SA1's case, the animations). 

 

I've been waiting to see the cast done justice for a long time, not be redone or refocused entirely. To essentially be told the equivalent of "get with the times, that was long ago, can't be replicated and it besides, it sucked anyways" is full o' ass. :T

[-blank-]

Well this was certainly interesting. You know, as much as I would have liked for them to have known a bit more about the series, since the characters and the way they interacted with one another was so good in Lost World, I can't be terribly mad at them.

[Diogenes]

I never found the characters embarrassing or boring in those games; if there was anything embarrassing about it it'd be some of the voicework and script (or in SA1's case, the animations).

What is a character if not their voice, dialogue, and animations?

[azoo]

What is a character if not their voice, dialogue, and animations?

 

....

 

http://youtu.be/uLugi6vbvAs?t=2m32s

 

You know gosh diddly darn well what I mean, given the specific problems with each of those. Some shaky lines relative to the writing and not the character portrayals, animations looking a bit nutty, and weird delivery given by the constraints. Those things alone did not make up their personalities and you know it. :I

 

Considering I'm tired of explaining what I mean when I say this since it seems its only going to be channeled as "they're flat and terrible", I'm pretty much without anything else to say.

[Diogenes]

You know gosh diddly darn well what I mean, given the specific problems with each of those. Some shaky lines relative to the writing and not the character portrayals, animations looking a bit nutty, and weird delivery given by the constraints. Those things alone did not make up their personalities and you know it. :I

Alone, no, but they sure factor into things.

[Nepenthe]

Nice to see the nostalgia argument out in full force, but frankly whether or not upcoming games capture that mysterious Adventure magic 110% is a strawman to what people are asking for, and frankly it isn't that mysterious at all anyway. Give levels some narrative agency back so that characters- and subsequently the player- have a specific reason to go from place to place, that's number one. Number two, write an actual plot where both sides of a conflict are in consistent engagement with each other over their goals and where the consequences of failure are taken at face value. Having a tragic, vengeful villain reawakened from the past eventually realizing the error of his ways is not necessary but would net you an A+ versus an A. I mean, this isn't rocket science and it doesn't require throwing away the current characterization to do so. Now can we stop acting like the Adventure games have nothing to contribute to the franchise, especially if the root of such dismissal is terror over a hypothetical SA3 Sega has not been interested in entertaining since SA2.

[Diogenes]

I'm not saying there's nothing to learn from the Adventures.

I'm saying that I think their characterization was largely poor, their plots were generally mediocre, and that Pontac and Graff absorbing their lore isn't really going to make the series better (because nothing that could be learned from the Adventures is unique to the Adventures and I'm sure, being fairly accomplished writers, they already have a fair grasp of those things already). Also that Pontac and Graff have done worlds better than pretty much everything the series has had in the last decade and that the series' writing is more likely to improve if they're supported and given more leeway as opposed to kicking them to the curb and rolling the dice on someone new.

[Indigo Rush]

 

I'm not saying there's nothing to learn from the Adventures.

I'm saying that I think their characterization was largely poor, their plots were generally mediocre, and that Pontac and Graff absorbing their lore isn't really going to make the series better (because nothing that could be learned from the Adventures is unique to the Adventures and I'm sure, being fairly accomplished writers, they already have a fair grasp of those things already). Also that Pontac and Graff have done worlds better than pretty much everything the series has had in the last decade and that the series' writing is more likely to improve if they're supported and given more leeway as opposed to kicking them to the curb and rolling the dice on someone new.

 

I don't think Azoo ever said he wanted Ken and Warren gone, though; just that they'd pay more attention to what happened in the series' earlier canon.

[Chooch]

Who said anything about kicking them to the curb and getting someone new?

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Who said anything about kicking them to the curb and getting someone new?

Even Shakespeare would be hard pressed to write a decent story for Sonic as long as SEGA and Sonic Team keeps the leash less than a centimeter long.

[Diogenes]

I've seen people outright calling them terrible. Maybe not here, maybe not in this discussion, but I'm just laying my points on the table.

[Scar]

Nice to see the nostalgia argument out in full force, but frankly whether or not upcoming games capture that mysterious Adventure magic 110% is a strawman to what people are asking for, and frankly it isn't that mysterious at all anyway. Give levels some narrative agency back so that characters- and subsequently the player- have a specific reason to go from place to place, that's number one. Number two, write an actual plot where both sides of a conflict are in consistent engagement with each other over their goals and where the consequences of failure are taken at face value. Having a tragic, vengeful villain reawakened from the past eventually realizing the error of his ways is not necessary but would net you an A+ versus an A. I mean, this isn't rocket science and it doesn't require throwing away the current characterization to do so. Now can we stop acting like the Adventure games have nothing to contribute to the franchise, especially if the root of such dismissal is terror over a hypothetical SA3 Sega has not been interested in entertaining since SA2.

I agree with what you're saying.

I'm sure I've personally said similar things in the past myself, but honestly there isn't much the writers can do about it. Like you said, SEGA aren't interested in entertaining. Simple fact is, Sonic Team and higher-ups in SEGA need to stop being a bunch of pussies about narrative in Sonic game.

 

 

Pontac: I'm happy to bring everybody into the party. I think it would be cool to not even have Tails, ya know, for like... have him just be captured and let him have his own little mini-story some and have Sonic team up with one or two of the other characters. That would be really fun

 

 

See, I thought this line in particular was pretty interesting and shows that at the very least, the writers are willing to up the stakes and do something a little different. Though simple in nature, the above idea could be made into something quite engaging if pulled off well. And I personally have no doubts that these guys could pull something like that off if given the chance.

[azoo]

 

 

 

 

I don't think Azoo ever said he wanted Ken and Warren gone, though.

 

 

That's the thing. I don't want them gone. They're good writers. 

 

But on the other hand, I am one who cares about character portrayal (considering whatever slight nuances about certain characters are what made me admire them so much), and to write the Adventures off as piss poor from both a story and character perspective is... ugh. I don't even know anymore.

 

I was gonna make a point about how SLW's Sonic would be cool to me if he was fleshed out more and given some of his mannerisms from previous Sonic games for depth's sake (having more interests (like traveling, freedom, interacting with people) and motivations that aren't just kicking Eggman's butt and being the great big hero), as I've been trying to say this whole time, but the point would probably be lost somewhere.

[Celestia]

Whether or not they could even use lore from the older games (see: ancient echidna stuff, Gerald's research which managed to factor into a few post-SA2 games, etc.) would be up to SEGA, and chances are they'd probably say no. Unless they gave more and more freedom to them, which I could maybe see happening.

 

Other than that, the only way researching older games could help them is characterization and stuff, and honestly, I think they have a good handle on the characters. Tails was a tiny bit off, but I think the problem with him in Lost World was that it felt a bit rushed rather than it being an inherently bad idea for a character arc. Him being a bit disillusioned with Sonic after the hedgehog first ignored him in Desert Ruins and then went on to--from Tails' POV, at least--trust Eggman over him would undoubtedly hurt him. It made sense to me, it just happened too quickly.

 

EDIT: Oh, and of course having context for levels ("this is why you're going to this location") is something I really want to see again, but again, that's probably a problem with SEGA rather than the writers.

Edited November 29, 2013 by ElementofChaos

[Blue Blood]

Other than that, the only way researching older games could help them is characterization and stuff, and honestly, I think they have a good handle on the characters.

 

Not true. Researching the old games would give them an idea of the types of stories that the series used to handle. Unleashed, '06 and SA2 each had practically nothing to do with games that came before them, but they still had pretty large self-contained plots. There's no good reason we don't get more of that. Heck, Lost World was almost that.

[Nepenthe]

I'm not saying there's nothing to learn from the Adventures.

I'm saying that I think their characterization was largely poor, their plots were generally mediocre, and that Pontac and Graff absorbing their lore isn't really going to make the series better (because nothing that could be learned from the Adventures is unique to the Adventures and I'm sure, being fairly accomplished writers, they already have a fair grasp of those things already). Also that Pontac and Graff have done worlds better than pretty much everything the series has had in the last decade and that the series' writing is more likely to improve if they're supported and given more leeway as opposed to kicking them to the curb and rolling the dice on someone new.

 

That seems to be exactly what you're saying.

 

Regardless, I can't agree the actual plotting was anything worse than what we've been getting with the current games now, which frankly lack it in spades; subsequently, following a similar narrative structure and style as the Adventures would be an improvement that would get me personally more engaged with what's happening. Characterization is frankly a toss-up: We're getting cartoonier super heroes that don't really do as much as super heroes anyway.

[Diogenes]

Not true. Researching the old games would give them an idea of the types of stories that the series used to handle. Unleashed, '06 and SA2 each had practically nothing to do with games that came before them, but they still had pretty large self-contained plots. There's no good reason we don't get more of that. Heck, Lost World was almost that.

I doubt that it failed to be that because they haven't read up on the Adventures. I would guess it's more likely that the process of making the games has changed, that there's a disconnect between the writers and the rest of the team that makes it more assembly line than an integrated process.