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Sonic Live Action Movie Thread (Read OP for topic rules) "Trailer 2 on Page 482)

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2 hours ago, Rosaleia said:

I could honestly care less because "Naka's" vision isn't what made Sonic popular in the west, anyway. If we let Sonic Team have their way without any American input, Sonic would have been very different. It was America and the UK's versions of Sonic that brought the initial bread and butter to the table. And SoA's the main reason we even have characters like Amy or Tails because otherwise SEGA would have shipped Sonic with that human girl, Madonna and put Sonic in a band. And I can guarantee you the former wouldn't have sat well with western consumers and parents.

Likewise without Sonic Team's input America would've run more wild with Sonic than they already did constantly reinventing him in wildly different ways on a whimsy.  How many different continuities did we get pre-1999 before SoJ clamped down and told them to knock it off?  And practically none of them even vaguely resembled the games they were based on.

Sure SoJ had some stupid ideas like Madonna, the band, Sonic with fangs, and whatnot but that stuff was tossed out before the first game.  Compare that to the nonsense SoA pulled with Mohawk the Assface redesign for Classic Sonic, changing the constantly grinning mad-scientist Classic Eggman to the constantly scowling dictator Robotnik, "Mobius", and other crap that somehow plagues the series to this day.

Don't see how SoA can be thanked for Amy and Tails considering Amy was pulled and tweaked from the manga and Tails is based off a kitsune, a Japanese mythological animal.  SoA  wanted to shove him in that Freedom Fighter nonsense.

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3 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

changing the constantly grinning mad-scientist Classic Eggman to the constantly scowling dictator Robotnik

I already noted this so I'll do it again: Eggman if anyone was the hyperactive one between himself and Sonic. Sonic smiled, but he was "cool" like ice, slick, cheeky. Eggman was a grinning dork plastering his mug all around the land who got turned to black like Elmer Fudd. 

Come Tails and he's notably younger (an adopted kid brother if you will) so he's a happy little boy. Amy's a hopping little girl. And Knuckles is a cackling loudmouth who's tricky. 

Part of the problem with how the movie characterizes Sonic is it missed this aspect of his character and how it plays into how he contrasts with his archenemy, little bro, wannabe girlfriend, and rival. Both Sonic and Eggman are zany and loud and "hyperactive" so they lose what makes them contrast when it comes to personality.

3 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

"Mobius"

We still have Mobius now it's just called Planet Sonic.

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3 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

Likewise without Sonic Team's input America would've run more wild with Sonic than they already did constantly reinventing him in wildly different ways on a whimsy.  How many different continuities did we get pre-1999 before SoJ clamped down and told them to knock it off?  And practically none of them even vaguely resembled the games they were based on.

only for SoJ to contradict aspects of the classics in later games with their own "AU", and then change Sonic's story to a Mario knock-off. but I don't see you complaining. Also, lets not forget this was the same branch that depicted more extreme and mature themes such as character murder, death, swearing, etc. compared to the brightly colored themes of the classics.

 

3 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

Sure SoJ had some stupid ideas like Madonna, the band, Sonic with fangs, and whatnot but that stuff was tossed out before the first game.  Compare that to the nonsense SoA pulled with Mohawk the Assface redesign for Classic Sonic, changing the constantly grinning mad-scientist Classic Eggman to the constantly scowling dictator Robotnik, "Mobius", and other crap that somehow plagues the series to this day.

Despite the fact SoJ has repeatedly experimented with concepts that deviate from the classics and their gameplay.

Just because YOU don't like the western interpretations doesn't change the fact that that "nonsense" helped Sonic's brand and helped make him popular. I see nothing wrong with SEGA listening to SoA's older fans and letting them have their own, separate AU series from the current games. Even if you hate it, how does that effect you? You don't have to buy it. Its not like SoA changed Sonic's core concept as a character, and it wouldn't hurt anybody for those fans to have something they like. its not like it would affect the games SoJ wanted to create.

3 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

Don't see how SoA can be thanked for Amy and Tails considering Amy was pulled and tweaked from the manga and Tails is based off a kitsune, a Japanese mythological animal.

If it weren't for SoA, Amy wouldn't have been adapted from the Sonic manga because Sonic would have already had a girlfriend. And Tails wouldn't have existed because Sonic would have already had a supporting cast for them to work with.

 

4 hours ago, Meta77 said:

Actually it would have done fine actually. Beauty and the beast, TMNT, Gargoyles, Animanachs, *spelled so wrong ,biker mice from mars, just to name a few had characters shipped with human characters. *what hurt one of those was toy sales, though it did get a meh animated sequel years later that no one knew of*

Considering how hard people hated Sonic and Elise, it was probably for the best SEGA listened to SoA's concerns. Also, because Sonic was initially depicted as such a rebellious character, adding a human girlfriend might have been too much. Especially in that day in age.

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16 minutes ago, Almar said:

We still have Mobius now it's just called Planet Sonic.

It's still dumb in both name and concept.  Just have everything on one planet.  Why the convolution?

 

17 minutes ago, Rosaleia said:

only for SoJ to contradict aspects of the classics in later games with their own "AU", and then change Sonic's story to a Mario knock-off. but I don't see you complaining. Also, lets not forget this was the same branch that depicted more extreme and mature themes such as character murder, death, swearing, etc. compared to the brightly colored themes of the classics.

I have complained, you just haven't seen.  I only care for the Japanese Classic Sonic and small slither of elements from anything else.

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Just because YOU don't like the western interpretations doesn't change the fact that that "nonsense" helped Sonic's brand and helped make him popular.

No it didn't.  Sonic became popular because of the well made Mega Drive/Genesis games which offered faster, more fluid platforming compared to the slow, prodding, blocky platforming of old.  And because the west was smart enough to bundle it with the console over crap like Altered Beast. It had jack all to do with some obscure DIC cartoon that lasted two seasons and got killed by Power Rangers or some DeviantArt level comics that have barely registered as a blip on the radar in the grand scheme of things.  Stuff like Labyrinth and Battle are more well known than the comics.

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I see nothing wrong with SEGA listening to SoA's older fans and letting them have their own, separate AU series from the current games. Even if you hate it, how does that effect you? You don't have to buy it.

Fractures brand identity and the fanbase and takes money and resources away from something that would actually have a shot at being good.  AUs are cancers, they've been killing DC comics since the 60s and show signs that the publisher/developer/whoever don't know what the hell to do with the franchise.

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Its not like SoA changed Sonic's core concept as a character,

Which game had Sonic be the co-leader of a terrorist organization in some drab cyber-punk world?

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If it weren't for SoA, Amy wouldn't have been adapted from the Sonic manga because Sonic would have already had a girlfriend. And Tails wouldn't have existed because Sonic would have already had a supporting cast for them to work with.

Madonna was a little dumb sure but worked out fine for Roger and Jessica Rabbit.  Not saying I'd like to see the concept revisited but it wouldn't have been this shocking thing even for the time.  I've never had  a problem with the band concept only because we now very little about how it would've been utilized beyond Sonic originally saving them in a proto version of Sonic 1.  We don't even a personality for any of them beyond Vector, though he could've been completely different for all we know.  I like Tails, though it'd be interesting to see if having a larger core cast of characters early could've saved the franchise from character bloat later on.  Happy with what we got and know too little of the alternative to truly judge.

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An enormous shitstorm has brewed up, it seems, over the basic issue of whether you enjoy Sonic being this giddy and goofy.  I think people are overcomplicating it: You either like it or you don't.  Everything beyond feels like little more than post-hoc rationalization.  Debates over the degree to which Sonic is predisposed to goofing around and at what point he's doing that too much at the expense of other recognizable traits.  At that level of nuance, it's hard to be objective.

I personally do like what I see of Sonic here, enough that all of this scrutiny is rather befuddling.  That may well have to do with how I play Sonic.  I'm more "playful" than some.  When my brother and I got the first game, he'd usually be the guy who'd try to get to the goal quickly.  I was more the type to explore things and see how I could use Sonic's abilities to get him various places snag items.  I'd be more likely to try to destroy every robot I could.  I grant that this style of play may bias my perspective, but I don't see how that's wrong.  If I have an affinity for movie Sonic because he acts how I'd probably act if I was Sonic, well, I'm not alone in that.

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1 hour ago, Rosaleia said:

Considering how hard people hated Sonic and Elise, it was probably for the best SEGA listened to SoA's concerns. Also, because Sonic was initially depicted as such a rebellious character, adding a human girlfriend might have been too much. Especially in that day in age.

Except Elise was designed in a way that made her clash with Sonic accounting for her game's artsyle. And her personality wasn't appealing.

39 minutes ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

It's still dumb in both name and concept.  Just have everything on one planet.  Why the convolution?

Iizuka and Co. are bad at taking criticism and even worse at holding Sonic to a solid direction. They hear "we hate the plots in the Adventure games and characters like Elise" (combined with listening to the "SONIC DOESN'T BELONG AROUND HUMANS WITH THEIR CITIES EXCEPT EGGMANN WHO DOESN'T COUNT" crowd) and have failed to keep Sonic with a reliable solid direction in visuals, tone so they just cop-out and segregate all the non-Eggman humans with their cities into Planet Human.

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3 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

No it didn't.  Sonic became popular because of the well made Mega Drive/Genesis games which offered faster, more fluid platforming compared to the slow, prodding, blocky platforming of old.  And because the west was smart enough to bundle it with the console over crap like Altered Beast. It had jack all to do with some obscure DIC cartoon that lasted two seasons and got killed by Power Rangers or some DeviantArt level comics that have barely registered as a blip on the radar in the grand scheme of things.  Stuff like Labyrinth and Battle are more well known than the comics.

Dude... SatAM got at LEAST 4.8 million veiws, which is pretty good considering that they were going up against of all things Power Rangers, and their management was facing harassment by ABC who intentionally put the show on inconsistent timeslots to sabotage it. And for something so 'obscure' SEGA was promoting it personally in their theme park.

 

3 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

Fractures brand identity and the fanbase and takes money and resources away from something that would actually have a shot at being good.

What this is really about. You don't want SEGA to let these fans have what they want because you don't want it to compete for the resources of things that YOU want. Because Megaman has done just fine with multiple universes, and the Sonic fandom wasn't nearly as toxic as it became before SoJ got rid of everything and alienated people.

You realize this kind of mentality doesn't help Sonic's sales either, right? Its this very kind of conflict and inability to get along because everyone's fighting to have the 'right' for more resources, that makes people deem the fandom toxic and not worth joining. I can't even say I blame parents for not wanting their kids involved with the Sonic series, because if the mediocrity doesn't turn them away, the fandom will anyway. And no parent wants to see their kid get bullied for their opinions.

 

3 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

Which game had Sonic be the co-leader of a terrorist organization in some drab cyber-punk world?

 

Wooooooow, dude.. Are you serious right now? I get that you hate SatAM, and I'm by no means trying to convince you to like it, but... to call Sonic and the Freedom Fighters terrorists? Is going too far. Sonic and his friends worked to protect people from a dictator who was trying to enslave the planet. They weren't bombing and hurting innocent civilians and denying people their freedoms. So by your logic, I guess WW2 veterans who risked their lives to stop dictators like Hitler are terrorists now? Guess that also means your saying the US armed forces are terrorists too.

 

2 hours ago, Almar said:

 Except Elise was designed in a way that made her clash with Sonic accounting for her game's artsyle. And her personality wasn't appealing.

 

Yes Elise was bland, but when people voiced why they hated her with Sonic, the biggest reason was always the fact he was a hedgehog and she was a human. Wacky animal logic doesn't apply as well, when your series... Isn't a wacky animal series. Sonic's not Roger Rabbit or Animaniacs --- And even in Animaniacs part of the joke was the fact the human characters were repulsed by their Warner's advances. Perhaps if they had made Sonic more like Looney Tunes it would have been better received, but... If they had I don't think the series would have been as popular, either way.

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19 minutes ago, Rosaleia said:

Yes Elise was bland, but when people voiced why they hated her with Sonic, the biggest reason was always the fact he was a hedgehog and she was a human. Wacky animal logic doesn't apply as well, when your series... Isn't a wacky animal series. 

But Sonic was a wacky animal series, or at least close to it, at the start. I'd agree it was probably for the best that they dropped the whole Madonna thing, but if she had made it into Sonic 1 she wouldn't have been received at all like Elise. She'd just be the hipper, more contemporary alternative to Princess Peach (much as Sonic was to Mario).

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10 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

But Sonic was a wacky animal series, or at least close to it, at the start. I'd agree it was probably for the best that they dropped the whole Madonna thing, but if she had made it into Sonic 1 she wouldn't have been received at all like Elise. She'd just be the hipper, more contemporary alternative to Princess Peach (much as Sonic was to Mario).

Conceptually it was wackier, but it didn't fit the direction America or Japan ultimately wanted to go with the series, so I was saying in retrospect, it was probably for the best they just left that out.

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5 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

It's still dumb in both name and concept.  Just have everything on one planet.  Why the convolution?

 

I have complained, you just haven't seen.  I only care for the Japanese Classic Sonic and small slither of elements from anything else.

No it didn't.  Sonic became popular because of the well made Mega Drive/Genesis games which offered faster, more fluid platforming compared to the slow, prodding, blocky platforming of old.  And because the west was smart enough to bundle it with the console over crap like Altered Beast. It had jack all to do with some obscure DIC cartoon that lasted two seasons and got killed by Power Rangers or some DeviantArt level comics that have barely registered as a blip on the radar in the grand scheme of things.  Stuff like Labyrinth and Battle are more well known than the comics.

Fractures brand identity and the fanbase and takes money and resources away from something that would actually have a shot at being good.  AUs are cancers, they've been killing DC comics since the 60s and show signs that the publisher/developer/whoever don't know what the hell to do with the franchise.

Which game had Sonic be the co-leader of a terrorist organization in some drab cyber-punk world?

Madonna was a little dumb sure but worked out fine for Roger and Jessica Rabbit.  Not saying I'd like to see the concept revisited but it wouldn't have been this shocking thing even for the time.  I've never had  a problem with the band concept only because we now very little about how it would've been utilized beyond Sonic originally saving them in a proto version of Sonic 1.  We don't even a personality for any of them beyond Vector, though he could've been completely different for all we know.  I like Tails, though it'd be interesting to see if having a larger core cast of characters early could've saved the franchise from character bloat later on.  Happy with what we got and know too little of the alternative to truly judge.

Well, I like the idea of Fleetway as a victim of the Western conceptions of the series, rather than a perpetuator. What was unique to it were very literal interpretations of game mechanics, such as the checkpoints. These continued even after a number of elements from the Sonic Bible were done away with.  

 

On-topic, about the film, I think Sonic playing sports with himself is an interesting concept.

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Sonic's using his speed to effectively make copies of himself and play is one of the more clever parts of this movie.  I'm not going to die on the hill of it being good, but Sonic doing things reliant on him being Sonic makes it feel at least a little less like a cash-in on a brand with no attention toward its specifics.  

Meanwhile, I have recently started wondering why interspecies romance is fine when's Sonic's partner is a chipmunk and not when she is a human.

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26 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Meanwhile, I have recently started wondering why interspecies romance is fine when's Sonic's partner is a chipmunk and not when she is a human.

Because people don't understand what that one word they keep using actually means.

So, 2 animals of different species in a relationship is fine. A sapient animal and a (unnecessary to specify sapient) human in a relationship is morally black.

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1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

Because people don't understand what that one word they keep using actually means.

So, 2 animals of different species in a relationship is fine. A sapient animal and a (unnecessary to specify sapient) human in a relationship is morally black.

That isn't an answer to my question; you just rephrased it to not be a question.  I don't want anyone to get any funny ideas about me, but what is it about humans, specifically, that makes it "morally black" for them, alone, to have relationships with other sapient species, while all other sapient species have more freedom?  A "yuck factor" inherited from the real-world where they there are no other sapient creatures is not a valid argument for that different hypothetical situation.  It's a valid reason not to have human-on-non-human relationships in media meant to entertain, but it still leaves me wondering why conversely the "yuck factor" is never thought to extend to other species.

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10 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

That isn't an answer to my question; you just rephrased it to not be a question.

I didn't, all I did was not use the word that people like to throw around for Sonic & Elise.

It's specifically ANIMALS, because those actually exist with a clear definition on their relation to humans and that word I refer to describes a human doing a certain bad thing.

So people's who's mind are in the gutters immediately think of that word.

Also, it's Sonic the Hedgehog.

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11 hours ago, Rosaleia said:

Dude... SatAM got at LEAST 4.8 million veiws, which is pretty good considering that they were going up against of all things Power Rangers, and their management was facing harassment by ABC who intentionally put the show on inconsistent timeslots to sabotage it. And for something so 'obscure' SEGA was promoting it personally in their theme park.

Do we even know what that figure refers to?  It is a specific season or episode?  Is it an average?  Only concrete thing I could find was "Sonic the Hedgehog initially ranked #9 in its time slot with a 5.2 rating, an estimated 4.8 million viewers."  Meaning maybe it had good ratings at first before people realized the show had nothing to do with "Sonic the Hedgehog" and tuned out.

Oh yeah, that Australian theme park.  'Cause that's important...

 

11 hours ago, Rosaleia said:

What this is really about. You don't want SEGA to let these fans have what they want because you don't want it to compete for the resources of things that YOU want. Because Megaman has done just fine with multiple universes, and the Sonic fandom wasn't nearly as toxic as it became before SoJ got rid of everything and alienated people.

Sega doesn't want those fans to have anything.  Where have you been since 1999?  The Archie comics was the last western continuity allowed for decades due to grandfathering before they shit the bed with legal stuff and Sega finally ended their misery.  I guarantee you the ye olde western stuff will never see the light of day again not because of the fans who dislike those continuities but because of Sega.

Megaman is a poor example to use. I'd wager that all those multiple universe were one of the cause of Mega Man eventually dying.  They crapped out a new universe every console generation.  Classic, X, Legends, Zero, ZX, Battle Network, what is point of all this nonsense?  Not to mention none of the series outside Classic have been given a new game since 2008, ports and compilations aside.  Maybe they'll throw the X series a bone, but beyond that it's like why bother?

 

12 hours ago, Rosaleia said:

You realize this kind of mentality doesn't help Sonic's sales either, right? Its this very kind of conflict and inability to get along because everyone's fighting to have the 'right' for more resources, that makes people deem the fandom toxic and not worth joining. I can't even say I blame parents for not wanting their kids involved with the Sonic series, because if the mediocrity doesn't turn them away, the fandom will anyway. And no parent wants to see their kid get bullied for their opinions.

Considering Modern and Classic Sonic are the only alive branches, it shouldn't be too hard to divvy up resources between two branches.  Unless the movie takes off and we find ourselves with three branches again.  But let's cross that bridge when/if we come to it.

 

12 hours ago, Rosaleia said:

Wooooooow, dude.. Are you serious right now? I get that you hate SatAM, and I'm by no means trying to convince you to like it, but... to call Sonic and the Freedom Fighters terrorists? Is going too far. Sonic and his friends worked to protect people from a dictator who was trying to enslave the planet. They weren't bombing and hurting innocent civilians and denying people their freedoms.

One person's "freedom fighter" is another person's "terrorist".  It all depends on which side of the conflict you're on.  Sonic and the FFs actions never came off as bad as, say, what Cloud and AVALANCHE did because Julian and Snively were the only living thing in the city, the FFs fought robots instead of armed, organic soldiers working for the other side, and because Julian never had the thought to use the Robians to fight the FFs.  A lot of good robots just going to waste doing whatever.  A good of episodes involves the FFs breaking and entering Julian's factories or reactor and blowing them up/shutting them down. 

 

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So by your logic, I guess WW2 veterans who risked their lives to stop dictators like Hitler are terrorists now? Guess that also means your saying the US armed forces are terrorists too.

Let's not compared fictional characters and concepts to real world ones.  That's a whole murky area I don't wanna get into and would definitely be off-topic.

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3 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

Do we even know what that figure refers to?  It is a specific season or episode?  Is it an average?  Only concrete thing I could find was "Sonic the Hedgehog initially ranked #9 in its time slot with a 5.2 rating, an estimated 4.8 million viewers."  Meaning maybe it had good ratings at first before people realized the show had nothing to do with "Sonic the Hedgehog" and tuned out.

 

Considering the fact they were going up against Power Rangers, facing harassment at ABC, who kept changing the timeslots etc. if they hadn't managed to keep those ratings consistent enough, SatAM wouldn't have survived long enough for a Season 2.

 

3 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

Sega doesn't want those fans to have anything.  Where have you been since 1999?  The Archie comics was the last western continuity allowed for decades due to grandfathering before they shit the bed with legal stuff and Sega finally ended their misery.  I guarantee you the ye olde western stuff will never see the light of day again not because of the fans who dislike those continuities but because of Sega.

 

Appealing to authority by using SEGA doesn't mean squat. SEGA is a business. Businesses require people to give them money to stay afloat. Its not just about their pride or what they want, they're here to give consumers a service. If they want to act like fanboys who continue to alienate their fans because of personal preference, they'll go under like all the other businesses who fail to consider practical matters. In this kind of economy, especially with the cost of games going up, and their negative reputation among the gaming community, they can't afford to keep discarding older fans to replace with little kids. Because little kids can't afford Sonic games. And the kids who were abandoned by SEGA in the 90s and early 2000s have grown up and become parents, now. And many of them don't want their kids dealing with Sonic.

 

3 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

Megaman is a poor example to use. I'd wager that all those multiple universe were one of the cause of Mega Man eventually dying.  They crapped out a new universe every console generation.  Classic, X, Legends, Zero, ZX, Battle Network, what is point of all this nonsense?  Not to mention none of the series outside Classic have been given a new game since 2008, ports and compilations aside.  Maybe they'll throw the X series a bone, but beyond that it's like why bother?

Except you just contradicted yourself by bringing up Mega Man X. And while sales wise, many of the spin-offs don't sell "as" well as the earlier releases of classic Megaman, they perform well enough to land Capcom a profit, which for them is the important thing. And spin-offs like Legends especially has a fairly positive reception.

Likewise, many people had their differences in the Sonic fandom but things didn't get toxic until post 1999 when SEGA of Japan overhauled everything and replaced their fanbase with a single story whilst discarding the rest. And have periodically continued to do this ever since. If people had no reason to see each other's differences as a threat and onset of SEGA alienating them, we'd have less fighting and less people put off by the fandom. But because of their history, and how they're known to treat their fans, people will hate this movie just on the premise of it threatening the versions of Sonic they like. And understanably so. And as a result will feel they HAVE to attack it so that they don't get kicked out like the older fans who came before them. SEGA NEEDS to be held accountable for this. And one way or another they will, because they can either listen or fall under.

 

3 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

Considering Modern and Classic Sonic are the only alive branches, it shouldn't be too hard to divvy up resources between two branches.  Unless the movie takes off and we find ourselves with three branches again.  But let's cross that bridge when/if we come to it.

 

If they can make Sonic Boom, a story nobody asked for, they can make something based on an AU that was more popular with people. Furthermore, the general public and gaming community doesn't care for or respect Modern Sonic. So while I don't think Japan's version should be abandoned, they really have nothing to lose at this point making AUs like SatAM. Sally and the Freedom Fighters, hell even some of the Archie originals had more fans than the newer characters SEGA has now. I guarantee you more people cared about Princess Sally and the Freedom Fighters, or hell even Mina the Mongoose before Infinite, Dodon Pa or the Deadly Six.

And Classic Sonic games like Mania are practically a spit in the bucket budget-wise for SEGA.

 

3 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

One person's "freedom fighter" is another person's "terrorist".  It all depends on which side of the conflict you're on.  Sonic and the FFs actions never came off as bad as, say, what Cloud and AVALANCHE did because Julian and Snively were the only living thing in the city, the FFs fought robots instead of armed, organic soldiers working for the other side, and because Julian never had the thought to use the Robians to fight the FFs.  A lot of good robots just going to waste doing whatever.  A good of episodes involves the FFs breaking and entering Julian's factories or reactor and blowing them up/shutting them down. 

Dude, stop reaching. You just admitted what they did wasn't terrorism. Sonic and the Freedom Fighters weren't using methods of violence or intimidation to intentionally hurt innocent civilians, Robotnik was. point blank.And even in the comics, where the Robians tried to hurt them, the Freedom took measures to AVOID harming them. And neutralized other people's attempts to do so.

Also fighting in self-defense is not terrorism.

 

3 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

Let's not compared fictional characters and concepts to real world ones.  That's a whole murky area I don't wanna get into and would definitely be off-topic.

Then don't compare Sonic to the likes Bin Laden, ISIS, or other terrorist organizations who hurt and killed innocent people to further their own political agendas. Thats extremely disrespectful.

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16 hours ago, Rosaleia said:

Yes Elise was bland, but when people voiced why they hated her with Sonic, the biggest reason was always the fact he was a hedgehog and she was a human.

Her being a human is just the shortcut of what didn't click about her character. Her design when accounting for her game's visuals made her be ridiculously out-of-place with Sonic. She wasn't "cartoony." And again, she didn't have a charming or funny personality. Just a plot device who admits she doesn't give a damn about her own subjects, that she'd destroy them all for Sonic.

4 hours ago, andrewtuell1991 said:

One person's "freedom fighter" is another person's "terrorist".  It all depends on which side of the conflict you're on.  Sonic and the FFs actions never came off as bad as, say, what Cloud and AVALANCHE did because Julian and Snively were the only living thing in the city, the FFs fought robots instead of armed, organic soldiers working for the other side, and because Julian never had the thought to use the Robians to fight the FFs.  A lot of good robots just going to waste doing whatever.  A good of episodes involves the FFs breaking and entering Julian's factories or reactor and blowing them up/shutting them down.

SatAM's Robotnik was just a Captain Planet villain planted in Star Wars. He didn't have enough personality to take advantage of Cummings' voice and didn't have the later nuances to his character we saw in Underground and the comics after awhile. He's the least interesting an Eggman has ever been short of Sonic Forces.

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34 minutes ago, Almar said:

Her being a human is just the shortcut of what didn't click about her character. Her design when accounting for her game's visuals made her be ridiculously out-of-place with Sonic. She wasn't "cartoony." And again, she didn't have a charming or funny personality. Just a plot device who admits she doesn't give a damn about her own subjects, that she'd destroy them all for Sonic.

I don't think making her design more 'cartoony' would have made it any less cringe for people. Unlike something like Roger Rabbit or Looney Tunes, The story took itself way too seriously for that kind of ship. If Sonic was a more zany cartoony kind of series maybe but it wasn't.

 

34 minutes ago, Almar said:

SatAM's Robotnik was just a Captain Planet villain planted in Star Wars. He didn't have enough personality to take advantage of Cummings' voice and didn't have the later nuances to his character we saw in Underground and the comics after awhile. He's the least interesting an Eggman has ever been short of Sonic Forces.

To a degree, I will agree with that, although I feel like Cummings really helped make the character somewhat more dramatic and entertaining to watch.  I've felt there were various issues with SatAM, including with characters like Sally (who imo, felt kind of Mary-sueish and a little too 'adult', especially in the comics) and Antoine for obvious reasons, but I feel like a lot of these problems can be tweaked and ironed out. Archie's already proven you can make a similar premise with a more charismatic variation of Robotnik/Eggman.

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59 minutes ago, Almar said:

SatAM's Robotnik was just a Captain Planet villain planted in Star Wars. He didn't have enough personality to take advantage of Cummings' voice and didn't have the later nuances to his character we saw in Underground and the comics after awhile. He's the least interesting an Eggman has ever been short of Sonic Forces.

I agree about SatAM Robotnik; easily the most overrated thing in the show, but his one-dimensionslity has nothing to do with whether Sonic is a terrorist.

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53 minutes ago, Rosaleia said:

I don't think making her design more 'cartoony' would have made it any less cringe for people. Unlike something like Roger Rabbit or Looney Tunes, The story took itself way too seriously for that kind of ship. If Sonic was a more zany cartoony kind of series maybe but it wasn't.

As I said, the problem isn't really that Elise is human. It's that she's not an appealing character, her design doesn't fit next to Sonic, and her plot was poorly done. Just saying "elise bad she human" and leaving it at that just pushes the same poor communication/suggestions that helped gave us Two-Worlds.

1 hour ago, Rosaleia said:

To a degree, I will agree with that, although I feel like Cummings really helped make the character somewhat more dramatic and entertaining to watch.

He wasn't expressive/animated enough to take advantage of Cummings' talent.

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28 minutes ago, Rosaleia said:

To a degree, I will agree with that, although I feel like Cummings really helped make the character somewhat more dramatic and entertaining to watch.  I've felt there were various issues with SatAM, including with characters like Sally (who imo, felt kind of Mary-sueish and a little too 'adult', especially in the comics) and Antoine for obvious reasons, but I feel like a lot of these problems can be tweaked and ironed out. Archie's already proven you can make a similar premise with a more charismatic variation of Robotnik/Eggman.

Don't forget Dulcy.  Actually, maybe you should.  But maybe you can't.

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