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Thoughts on modern Knuckles?


Connor

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Your entire argument is based around the assumption that I want to divorce Knuckles completely from Angel Island. That isn't what I want at all. I just want to develop him in other ways, by giving him something that isn't related Angel Island or the Master Emerald. Finding a way to integrate him into the plot as a treasure hunter is easy, you just need to use your imagination.

What do you think I did in the previous wall of text off the top of my head? What do you think I've said in the previous post before that? You're just repeating the exact same thing I said without even considering the points I made.

 

 

Okay, don't you think you're being a tiny bit unreasonable here? What I'm suggesting is a third option to the ones you're presenting.

No, I'm not. I just gave an example of a third option at the end of the previous wall of text you quoted, one that had nothing to do with Angel Island, the Master Emerald, or even treasure hunting like you're suggesting we use, while at the same time giving him a motivation and reason for being in the plot in one sentence.

A simple example and third option to show my thoughts and to show how easy this whole thing can be, yet you still disregarded it just to tell me that Knuckles doesn't need a reason to be away from the stuff he's associated with. Either you didn't read it, or you ignored it.

 

So let's rethink about what's considered unreasonable. Because otherwise I willing to settle with one extreme against another if we're going to disregard having a middle ground that doesn't appeal to us both.

 

 

Knuckles can still take care of the Master Emerald, but it won't be his only motivation for adventuring. This means that depending on the story, Knuckles can be the Guardian, the Archaeologist, or even both at once!

Provided he's not ignoring the other things associated with him to do any of that.

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No, I'm not. I just gave an example of a third option at the end of the previous wall of text you quoted, one that had nothing to do with Angel Island, the Master Emerald, or even treasure hunting like you're suggesting we use, while at the same time giving him a motivation and reason for being in the plot in one sentence.

A simple example and third option to show my thoughts and to show how easy this whole thing can be, yet you still disregarded it just to tell me that Knuckles doesn't need a reason to be away from the stuff he's associated with. Either you didn't read it, or you ignored it.

 

So let's rethink about what's considered unreasonable. Because otherwise I willing to settle with one extreme against another if we're going to disregard having a middle ground that doesn't appeal to us both.

I did read the example you gave, but looking back I may have misunderstood it. When you said "he's trying to fight his way to freedom and get home", I assumed that meant returning to Angel Island as opposed to just getting out of Dr. E's fortress (or wherever he's been imprisoned). Sorry about that!

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I did read the example you gave, but looking back I may have misunderstood it. When you said "he's trying to fight his way to freedom and get home", I assumed that meant returning to Angel Island as opposed to just getting out of Dr. E's fortress (or wherever he's been imprisoned). Sorry about that!
I implied Angel Island for him to return home, but that wasn't important in the example of breaking out of whoever imprisoned him and you could still find other ways to develop him beyond that.
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ChaosSupremeSonic, your arguments are so valid I wanna... I don't know! You're thoughts are so good, yet still provide solid middle ground! Keep goin' man.

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  • 2 weeks later...

One thing that sometimes we don't mention, is Knuckles ability to shrink the Master Emerald, like he did in SA2. Maybe the games could imply that he is helping saving the world, and at the same time, protecting the Master Emerald because he has it with him. And what better way to guard something that to be with it at all time?

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One thing that sometimes we don't mention, is Knuckles ability to shrink the Master Emerald, like he did in SA2. Maybe the games could imply that he is helping saving the world, and at the same time, protecting the Master Emerald because he has it with him. And what better way to guard something that to be with it at all time?

I can tell you how it's not a better way:

 

That's like protecting top secret files by taking it with you in hostile territory instead of a secure base with layers of protection, or protecting money or jewels by taking them out of the safe instead of keeping them inside, or defending the president and/or civilians by bringing them with you to the front lines of a shoot out while fighting the bad guys instead of keeping them away from the bad guys.

 

I.E. that's the complete opposite of protecting it.

 

Sure someone can still sneak into the base to steal the files, crack the safe to get the money and jewels, or chase after president and civilians just like someone can fly to Angel Island to search and steal the Master Emerald,  but do you not realize you're making that person's job much easier by keeping these things in your pocket where all they have to do is fight or kill you to steal it?

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I can tell you how it's not a better way:

 

That's like protecting top secret files by taking it with you in hostile territory instead of a secure base with layers of protection, or protecting money or jewels by taking them out of the safe instead of keeping them inside, or defending the president and/or civilians by bringing them with you to the front lines of a shoot out while fighting the bad guys instead of keeping them away from the bad guys.

 

I.E. that's the complete opposite of protecting it.

 

I fully agree with you, except in the detail that the Master Emerald's greatest protection is Knuckles himself, and not the island. And f Knuckles takes the emerald with him, it can also help him, using it's powers if the situation requires it. But I can see your point clearly.

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I fully agree with you, except in the detail that the Master Emerald's greatest protection is Knuckles himself, and not the island. And f Knuckles takes the emerald with him, it can also help him, using it's powers if the situation requires it. But I can see your point clearly.
No, the island is equally as much of a defense as Knuckles is because it has traps around it. It's the base that secures it and the safe that keeps it locked while Knuckles is the soldier that defends them. You still have to look around to find it, and in that time Knuckles can cut you off or trap you. Sonic 3 and Knuckles showed you this.   If Knuckles takes it with him and loses it, then that person who stole it can use it against him - basically, you're giving the enemy a chance to steal your gun and shoot you with it.
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Sadly, Knuckles has been reduced to the butt of almost every cringeworthy moments in the series(like that cutscene in the beginning in Lost World which almost made me punch through the entire fucking monitor). What a waste, he's one of the best character ever created, and they don't even give him a decent role nowadays, just blatantly shoving him into most games when he should guard the Master Emerald. 

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No, the island is equally as much of a defense as Knuckles is because it has traps around it. It's the base that secures it and the safe that keeps it locked while Knuckles is the soldier that defends them. You still have to look around to find it, and in that time Knuckles can cut you off or trap you. Sonic 3 and Knuckles showed you this.

 

If Knuckles takes it with him and loses it, then that person who stole it can use it against him - basically, you're giving the enemy a chance to steal your gun and shoot you with it.

I know that the island also protects the emerald, I just like to think that between leaving the island and the emerald alone, or taking the emerald with him, I believe that the emerald is safer with him. Maybe Knuckles believes the same?

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No, the island is equally as much of a defense as Knuckles is because it has traps around it. It's the base that secures it and the safe that keeps it locked while Knuckles is the soldier that defends them. You still have to look around to find it, and in that time Knuckles can cut you off or trap you. Sonic 3 and Knuckles showed you this.

 

If Knuckles takes it with him and loses it, then that person who stole it can use it against him - basically, you're giving the enemy a chance to steal your gun and shoot you with it.

         I don't think Knuckles could lose it. Not that your points are not valid, but he has such a deep connection to it, that he can sense it's individual pieces from far away. He can communicate with it, as shown in SA, and he apparently has a affectionate type of care for it, as shown when Rouge gave him back the pieces in Sa2. I think if he lost it, he would know. also, in Sonic rivals 2, it was stolen off angel island, but Knuckles knew it was nearby.... it was in Rouge's handheld thingy she had.  He could sense it. and that is more or less why i think he can't lose it without knowing.

   But I do think the Island does provide protection, and I also know that Tikal could not take the Master Emerald away from angel island either. I have this running gag in my head, that Knuckles can only take it off Angel Island when it wants to go someplace. Otherwise, he's trapped there :).

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I know that the island also protects the emerald, I just like to think that between leaving the island and the emerald alone, or taking the emerald with him, I believe that the emerald is safer with him. Maybe Knuckles believes the same?
Despite me explaining to you how it more endangered if he takes it with him? No...

I don't think Knuckles could lose it. Not that your points are not valid, but he has such a deep connection to it, that he can sense it's individual pieces from far away. He can communicate with it, as shown in SA, and he apparently has a affectionate type of care for it, as shown when Rouge gave him back the pieces in Sa2. I think if he lost it, he would know. also, in Sonic rivals 2, it was stolen off angel island, but Knuckles knew it was nearby.... it was in Rouge's handheld thingy she had. He could sense it. and that is more or less why i think he can't lose it without knowing.
...But those games are where he lost it. So how can Knuckles not lose it when you know those games you brought up are the very examples where that's exactly what he does and has to find it after losing it to pieces? You're being contradicting.
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I don't think the issue is the emerald just falling out of his nonexistent pocket without him realizing it, but it getting broken or stolen due to him taking it into dangerous situations.

Something like the cutscene in SA after Sonic vs Knuckles, where Sonic gets two emeralds knocked out of him and Eggman nabs them.

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Sadly, Knuckles has been reduced to the butt of almost every cringeworthy moments in the series(like that cutscene in the beginning in Lost World which almost made me punch through the entire fucking monitor). What a waste, he's one of the best character ever created, and they don't even give him a decent role nowadays, just blatantly shoving him into most games when he should guard the Master Emerald. 

I'm going to stop you right there. Despite what you may have been led to believe, it's perfectly in character for Knuckles to be playing with  the tiny animals. Just look at the opening of his story in Sonic and Knuckles:

Mushroomhillzone.png

While it isn't to the extent that he's interacting with them in Lost World, it does show that he enjoys their company. In fact, his primary motivation for most of the game is to get back at the EggRobo for scaring them away Apparently the animals are completely unrelated to his goals, but that shouldn't invalidate anything I said beforehand. As for the scene where the animals begin carrying him, it's likely that if Knuckles had struggled free some of them might have gotten hurt in the process.

I know that the island also protects the emerald, I just like to think that between leaving the island and the emerald alone, or taking the emerald with him, I believe that the emerald is safer with him. Maybe Knuckles believes the same?

But what about Chaos? As the guardian deity of Angel Island, it can protect the Master Emerald whenever Knuckles is away, or even when he isn't! Here are two scenarios that explain what I mean:

  1. Knuckles wears the Master Emerald as a pendant around his neck. Somehow he ends up getting killed, and the emerald gets stolen.
  2. Knuckles leaves the emerald on Angel Island. In the event of his death, Chaos would still be able to protect it.
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At what point was Chaos the guardian deity of Angel Island?

Chaos WAS the guardian of the Chaos Emeralds and the Master Emerald...he's also the reason that Angel Island exist in the 1st place because of that Rampage. The Master Emerald is on Angel Island and Chaos would protect it there, and therefore protecting the island as well to stop any intruders who may want to steal it.

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Chaos WAS the guardian of the Chaos Emeralds and the Master Emerald...

He only protected the shrine because the chao lived there. That's what he was concerned with protecting, not the emeralds.

he's also the reason that Angel Island exist in the 1st place because of that Rampage.

That doesn't make him a guardian deity of it.
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While it isn't to the extent that he's interacting with them in Lost World, it does show that he enjoys their company. In fact, his primary motivation for most of the game is to get back at the EggRobo for scaring them away.

 

The fuck?

 

No it wasn't. His whole motivation of the game was to get revenge on EggRobo for invading his island and bombing him right in his face. It was all in the intro, the animals had nothing to do with it because they were completely safe and untouched as they ran when the bomb exploded and Knuckles chased after EggRobo. And come around the end, it's revealed that EggRobo stole the Master Emerald with the help of Mecha Sonic.

 

Dude, you are smarter than this than to omit details like that. I'm starting to wonder if you're doing this on purpose.

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He only protected the shrine because the chao lived there. That's what he was concerned with protecting, not the emeralds.

So you're saying he would have allowed Pachacamac's army to just waltz in and steal the emeralds if they hadn't killed any of the chao? Because I really doubt that.

 

That doesn't make him a guardian deity of it.

It most certainly does, especially since that's what he was even before it was an island!

 

The fuck?

 

No it wasn't. His whole motivation of the game was to get revenge on EggRobo for invading his island and bombing him right in his face. It was all in the intro, the animals had nothing to do with it because they were completely safe and untouched as they ran when the bomb exploded and Knuckles chased after EggRobo. And come around the end, it's revealed that EggRobo stole the Master Emerald with the help of Mecha Sonic.

 

Dude, you are smarter than this than to omit details like that. I'm starting to wonder if you're doing this on purpose.

Okay, so maybe I was exaggerating slightly, but that doesn't make my original point any less valid.

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So you're saying he would have allowed Pachacamac's army to just waltz in and steal the emeralds if they hadn't killed any of the chao? Because I really doubt that.

If he felt the chao weren't going to be harmed, yeah, probably. Where is the evidence otherwise?

Chaos' entire story is about the chao. They were his family, he was the big one who protected them, he went wild with grief and rage when they were killed, and he was calmed by seeing that some had survived. At no point is he shown giving two shits about the emeralds save for using them to get revenge for the chao.

It most certainly does, especially since that's what he was even before it was an island!

You've yet to prove that.
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Okay, so maybe I was exaggerating slightly, but that doesn't make my original point any less valid.
Exaggerating slightly? No, you complete changed it by lying about his motivation in that game. That is dishonest as hell and you need to stop it. You are better than that. You weaken your point and credibility by doing that.
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If he felt the chao weren't going to be harmed, yeah, probably. Where is the evidence otherwise?

Chaos' entire story is about the chao. They were his family, he was the big one who protected them, he went wild with grief and rage when they were killed, and he was calmed by seeing that some had survived. At no point is he shown giving two shits about the emeralds save for using them to get revenge for the chao.

That's bullshit. Chaos is more than just some ascended chao king! He is the original guardian of the Master Emerald (and by extension Angel Island), and nothing you say is going to convince me otherwise.

 

Exaggerating slightly?

No, you complete changed it by lying about his motivation in that game. That is dishonest as hell and you need to stop it. I expect better than that from you.

How was I lying? The animals were scared away when the EggRobo deployed the bomb, weren't they?

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How was I lying? The animals were scared away when the EggRobo deployed the bomb, weren't they?
Dude, you know full and well what I was telling you, so quit acting like you don't know. It was not about how scared the animals were, that was never his motivation like you said it was. It was a background event that held absolutely no bearing to his motivations. Knuckles got Tacked on his own home and went after the culprit, that was his whole motive right there
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