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The Shadow Topic


Kuzu

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Shadow.... Well, I do have one thing to say about him. I love him as a character, But I always found it hilarious that he nearly suffers a heart attack every time he hears the word "Maria".

MARIIIAAA! OH THE TRADGEDY *Heart racing and he falls to the ground, gasping for air and reaching heavenwards as if it will give him life or something, then grabs his head and goes into a state of shock*

    I always found this funny. It seems to be a paralyzing word to him, so if I were ever to have to do battle with him in real life, I will just say "Maria" and my troubles will be over :D.

  On a more serious note, I like Shadow because he is so mysterious. He has a confusing and dysfunctional past, that he can't fully remember, and that makes him who he is. I think he is interesting because he seems to hate humanity for what happened to Maria, but seems to have a soft spot for any person who carries Maria's heart. He seems to particularly have a soft spot for Amy, and she is the only one who saw him shed a tear in any game. He also thinks about her in Shadow the Hedgehog, which leads me to believe that he connects her to Maria in some way.

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I brought up Archie Shadow not only to voice the view that his traits are not comparable to the game's incarnation but because this is a Shadow topic is it not? I assumed by that topic title that Shadow is up for discussion regardless of the version of the character. Alas, I get misrepresented as taking it as an opportunity to jab at Archie when making a salient point. Non-canonicity has absolutely nothing to do with it since it's still a version of Shadow that is open to be commented-on.

You also forgot to point out in addition to being non canon it's an evil corrupted future. Like how in flashpoint if Bruce Wayne was killed instead of his parents his dad would become batman and his mom would become the joker. It's just a story where the characters we know and love(or in other cases hate) just change and become totally different characters for just what if scenarios nothing to take seriously all for fun. But I digress .

As much as I find shadow the hedgehog(the game) to be a guilty pleasure I just find the plot to be a complete and utter mess. Nothing in that game made sense and its filled with bad writing and contradicts SA2's story. For example in the beginning of the game shadow collects the chaos emeralds because doom told him to. If you take the neutral path he claims that nobody tells him what to do but yet he's collecting the emeralds because somebody told him to do it. The game pretty much ruined shadows character and I feel because of that SEGA is afraid to do anything with the character

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Personally, I find ShTH's story hard to get a precise read-on regarding Shadow himself because it can be so convoluted but in general I don't hold it's portrayal of the character in particularly high regard. At least he finally put his past behind him though.

 

I still think Gens and Chronicles were the worst portrayals of him as I said. Gens for turning him into a generic cheerleader whose boss fight wasn't even that good and Chronicles for largely screwing-up his outlook (And even being contradictory when you read his codex entry) and practically making him prime shipping bait regarding Omega :lol: I think the only clever line he gets in that game is the smug way in which he tells Sonic that he can see no way out of a predicament for him but plenty for himself.

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I'm sorta on the fence about Archie Shadow myself, I do like how he actually emotes and can even crack a joke every now and then. My only real gripe seems to be that whenever he shows up, he doesn't really do anything....or at least nothing major. I just always felt Shadow is a character who's appearance meant something big was about to happen considering everything surrounding the character.

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Yes.

 

The fallacy used to characterize Shadow like this and put him into the position of king was that he was never influenced by Sonic in that timeline to become a better person. In this timeline, Shadow deposed Robotnik and dominated Mobius in order to bring about his own idea of harmony but as he was never influenced by Sonic (Which is inherently bull anyway but I'll get to that in a bit), he turns out to be brutal to the point that Sally 'marries' him in order to tame his attitude in the hopes of making his regime less harsh to the citizens.

 

The problem here is that not only is this a huge mishandling of Shadow's attitude even before he was 'set straight', it wasn't Sonic's influence that caused him to have a change in heart. It was Amy's. So not only does the plot point shoot itself in the foot regarding it's premise but it's fundamentally flawed if Shadow's original change in attitude was due to Amy and wasn't a result of Sonic specifically altering the timeline. The "Maria deification" is just a complete exaggeration of the regard in which Shadow holds Maria in order to misguidedly give his reasoning for his regime weight.

 

Except Amy had no influence over Shadow's change in the comic's. Bringing up "Well, the games show that AMY did it, so Archie obviously just shat all over everything!" That doesn't really fly if you insist on talking about how "bad" Archie!Shadow just because Archie didn't do it the same way as the games. Archie did have some bad ideas, or just really terribly executed ones, but I think you're blowing the whole thing with Maria out of proportion when considering, outside of that one what-if scenario that was never set in stone in the first place (and is pretty much prevented from happening as of current events), Shadow followed a relatively similar path when it came to moving on.

 

The "Maria" thing went on for a good while, from his initially projecting his attachment onto Hope and letting Eggman trick him into working for him, up until he recovered Gerald's diary and learned the truth about his creation. Gerald got help from Black Doom to help create the Ultimate Lifeform and then double-crossed Doom by changing Shadow from a mere living weapon, to a protector (an idea he would continue to deal with in his first Sonic Universe storyline). He then embraced this and learned that Maria wasn't truly gone if he held on to the memory of her, but he was capable of moving on from this one point in his life. Which, you know, was basically the plot of Shadow the Hedgehog's "Last Story." It didn't happen quite the same way, but you can't accuse Archie of not following the character's basic development roughly around the same time SEGA did it (which has been par for the course for them from what I've read).

 

It's that and a combination of Sonic's and Hope's influences that ultimately put Shadow on the side of good and cemented his morals. Amy did call him out on some wrong-doing when Team Dark stole the Sol Emerald from Blaze, and he turned around (though even before she calls him out, he obviously feels guilty that he betrayed Blaze and could have potentially endangered her whole world) but he likely would've reached that conclusion on his own since Shadow (at this point) typically cares about the greater good anyway.

 

I'm not going to say every single decision Archie has ever made concerning the character (or any character) has been great (there's a reason I quit reading at one point), but I can't ignore the things they (or at least Flynn and his editors) have done right from my view. You can bring up the idiotic super-gluing of the Villain Ball onto Future Shadow's hands all you want (admittedly Flynn's doing), but I don't think that's proof that Shadow in the present is treated like crap--it's just a case of bad writing from something that was only ever in "what-if" status anyway; I like Soniman's example of alternate universe Zombie-Spiderman, which sounds like such an insanely stupid idea and reminds me why I don't read superhero books.

 

What I see with present Archie!Shadow is an extension of ideas presented in the games and given some kind of development, and I think he's a good character and serves as the main reason I like the character as a whole so much (and the few shining moments SEGA's given him after Sonic Adventure 2 help too--barring that stupid line in Generations that was totally ripping off Vegeta). I find that aspects of the Archie characterization (particularly his moral code, sense of justice, and caring for his friends) are compatible with the game version because the two versions' personalities and general outlooks aren't drastically different.

 

-----

 

I've also been mulling over Nepenthe's points because, well, she brings up some interesting points. While I think GUN gives him some kind of grounding and purpose, it's hard to deny that they are directly responsible for destroying Shadow's family and sealing him away for half a century (and somehow covering up everything they did in the process) and that they'd likely do it again if they felt it was necessary (though I was under the impression that it was just the angry masses who would scapegoat Shadow and use his own friend, Omega, to seal him away again, not GUN. By the time the Iblis disaster would've taken over the world, the military probably dissolved in the chaos and it became a free-for-all).

 

The best alternative I can think of is as a mercenary--not allied with any particular nation or army (since he's shown to not get himself concerned unless he has to) and essentially doing what he wants. He'd essentially be Sonic with a job, and I imagine current Shadow would want to find a positive outlet to put his skills and abilities to use without causing unnecessary destruction, which would be consistent with Maria's wish and the influence that Sonic and friends have rubbed off on him over the years; I like to point to his portrayal in Free Riders which he is pretty laid back and, at times, funny, considering how the fandom loves to saddle him with that "angsty" stereotype (which makes Zor's apparent popularity puzzling to me).

 

He'd still be out and doing his own thing, but I think a combination of his morals, begrudging respect for Sonic, and Maria's wish that would keep him from throwing in with just any conflict that he witnesses throughout the world. I guess because otherwise, we'd risk having a version of Shadow that keeps going on about injustices in the world and being an irritating political strawman character. Shadow, to me, seems more concerned with "getting his" first (whatever that may be), and then it trickles down and crosses with saving the world as a whole. I don't think he'd throw in with individual conflicts unless he'd benefit or felt that those conflicts were going to endanger the world as a whole. Eggman and alien invasions are one thing, but something that's just between a couple nations, or even different groups in the same nation seems like something he wouldn't care to get involved in unless he had to.

 

I'd need to think about this more though.

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I actually kind of like that idea as its consistent with Shadow's character arc, and gives some credible reasons as to why he'd get involved in certain conflicts as opposed to just being ordered to by GUN. He wouldn't exactly be Batman and see fit to get involved in every conflict, but he'd get involved if he felt there was a problem he could solve.

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I've also been mulling over Nepenthe's points because, well, she brings up some interesting points. While I think GUN gives him some kind of grounding and purpose, it's hard to deny that they are directly responsible for destroying Shadow's family and sealing him away for half a century (and somehow covering up everything they did in the process) and that they'd likely do it again if they felt it was necessary (though I was under the impression that it was just the angry masses who would scapegoat Shadow and use his own friend, Omega, to seal him away again, not GUN. By the time the Iblis disaster would've taken over the world, the military probably dissolved in the chaos and it became a free-for-all).

 

GUN would become considerably weaker under the circumstances, but I'm unsure about outright anarchy perpetuating and that there wouldn't be some strict international governmental interference in play. Even if we assume that the disaster began with such rampant destruction that there would effectively be no government to control the situation due to a near mass extinction, then who in the world is going around reprogramming mechs, especially one of Eggman's caliber? I imagine the remaining people would be trying to just survive at that point regardless of who they knew or thought was responsible. The idea of there being a coordinated attack against Shadow speaks to a slow descent into the hell witnessed by Silver and that civilization still endured for quite some time. That would mean GUN would've had to still exist too, and if such, that means they're either the ones responsible for Shadow's imprisonment in some way- which is highly likely considering their technological resources- or they just left him to the wolves. Either way, big thanks to the lot of them.

 

Nevertheless, I agree wholeheartedly with the mercenary angle and it's what I attempted to explain earlier. It'd be much more interesting to see Shadow entering conflicts and trying to uphold his promises on his own terms, which I feel is the most natural extension of his various revelations of free will outside of the circumstances of his birth and biology, of not necessarily being beholden to anyone except himself. Granted, I did say I also liked the idea of Shadow joining GUN to keep close watch on Rouge, simply as a thing he'd have to bite the bullet to achieve. Too bad it's not an angle Sonic Team actually elaborated on.

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Alas, I get misrepresented as taking it as an opportunity to jab at Archie when making a salient point.

Because that's what it was. You weren't misrepresented by your original post at all; and you made no effort to make a salient point. You knowingly brought up a shitty non-canon alternate universe side story arc to dismiss Archie as a whole in response to someone saying that they like to think a specific idea Archie uses for Shadow can be applied to the game interpretation of the character. And I know for a fact that you've ripped into people for doing the same thing with non-canon games and game endings, so it's hypocritical on your part as well.

 

 

 

You've since expanded and actually contributed to the topic, but your original response was nothing more than "Can you believe Archie did this stupid thing?" (even went so far as to say "The above image is swear-to-god not edited in any way"); and you can't hide it under a veil of "well, this is a general Shadow topic" because it is clear what you originally meant. Your posting history regarding things that fall under Sega of America's purview and the humongous berth you give the games in comparison precedes you as well; to the extent that you've written that sentence I quoted above nearly word for word before.

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I don't understand why you think I have this huge downer on SoA itself.

 

If anything, I respect SoA for the successful path it set the Sonic series on. They were directly responsible for the success of the series. I like SatAM even if I don't consider it to be a stellar Sonic show specifically. And I'm not the staunchly, even obsessive Archie hater you seem to think I am when I've acknowledged it's positivities quite an amount of times before. Yeah I'm mostly on the 'dislike' side regarding Archie but I like to like it too you know. I think the only aspect directly tied to SoA I really vocally poked contempt at was the Sonic Bible.

 

As for Shadow, I'll admit that I got the wrong end of the stick and was overly vociferous in voicing my contempt and for that I apologize. I really, really need to simmer down me thinks unsure.png

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The best alternative I can think of is as a mercenary--not allied with any particular nation or army (since he's shown to not get himself concerned unless he has to) and essentially doing what he wants.

Well this is interesting how minds can be alike, because  I've grown content on leaving him with GUN while still leaving him the option of being a mercenary. I've been seeing GUN has far too useful nowadays, thanks in part to Archie!Sonic's use of them.

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What exactly has Archie done with that's particularity important again?

I don't understand what you mean about them doing something important...I'm just saying they've made use of things to where some elements could be interesting to use in the games.

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I don't understand what you mean about them doing something important...I'm just saying they've made use of things to where some elements could be interesting to use in the games.

 

And my question was how? In what ways are Archie utilizing GUN that makes them interesting, that could justify their presence in the games?

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Well this is interesting how minds can be alike, because  I've grown content on leaving him with GUN while still leaving him the option of being a mercenary. I've been seeing GUN has far too useful nowadays, thanks in part to Archie!Sonic's use of them.

 

Yeah, I think it's just a logical conclusion to keep him in the mix without being tied down or allied with anyone other than Sonic and crew (in the big picture). So it doesn't surprise me that others have come up with it before I did (and I was kinda piggybacking off of Nepenthe too). And, to be fair, the fans probably put way more thought into this sort of thing than SEGA/Sonic Team do tongue.png

 

GUN would become considerably weaker under the circumstances, but I'm unsure about outright anarchy perpetuating and that there wouldn't be some strict international governmental interference in play. Even if we assume that the disaster began with such rampant destruction that there would effectively be no government to control the situation due to a near mass extinction, then who in the world is going around reprogramming mechs, especially one of Eggman's caliber? I imagine the remaining people would be trying to just survive at that point regardless of who they knew or thought was responsible. The idea of there being a coordinated attack against Shadow speaks to a slow descent into the hell witnessed by Silver and that civilization still endured for quite some time. That would mean GUN would've had to still exist too, and if such, that means they're either the ones responsible for Shadow's imprisonment in some way- which is highly likely considering their technological resources- or they just left him to the wolves. Either way, big thanks to the lot of them.

I kinda figured that the world's governments lost power and that, with Sonic and crew probably killed in action, and Shadow being the only one powerful enough to even stand up against the unstoppable kaiju everyone simply rallied against him as an easy scapegoat. It wouldn't be hard for some nutjob to come up with some idiotic idea that Shadow is somehow the cause of the disaster and get an angry mob together, and so pressure the government/remnants of GUN to take some kind of action. I'm also under the impression that Omega wasn't just captured and reprogrammed, but was "recovered" (and pretty much "dead") and re-purposed into mindless drone. Shadow wasn't able to take on his only remaining friend, so he likely surrendered and became imprisoned then. But that's just all crazy speculation since there's nothing official to go by. I can't really argue with your point though--regardless of what the details possibly were, Shadow got screwed big time.

 

Nevertheless, I agree wholeheartedly with the mercenary angle and it's what I attempted to explain earlier. It'd be much more interesting to see Shadow entering conflicts and trying to uphold his promises on his own terms, which I feel is the most natural extension of his various revelations of free will outside of the circumstances of his birth and biology, of not necessarily being beholden to anyone except himself. Granted, I did say I also liked the idea of Shadow joining GUN to keep close watch on Rouge, simply as a thing he'd have to bite the bullet to achieve. Too bad it's not an angle Sonic Team actually elaborated on.

I kind of like the idea that he's there simply to look out for Rouge though. It's certainly not a stretch to think he cares about her at all. I kind of see Rouge dragging Shadow into missions even if he weren't employed by GUN and was a mercenary--she'd just give him a cut and rely on him (and probably Omega) should she need some extra muscle/firepower to get certain jobs done. But either idea can work in my book, and show us more of Shadow's personality anyway.

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And my question was how? In what ways are Archie utilizing GUN that makes them interesting, that could justify their presence in the games?
By making more use of them for one? Putting them in conflict more with other characters by proxy of Team Dark, as well as show what's happening on their side of the fence like when Eggman attacked them in his search for Snivley, or simply their actions on their own accord like when they sent Team Dark into the special stage. As well as having them be in conflict with the heroes while actually being on the same side.

 

Real simple stuff like we could do for any other character or group.

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By making more use of them for one? Putting them in conflict more with other characters by proxy of Team Dark, as well as show what's happening on their side of the fence like when Eggman attacked them in his search for Snivley, or simply their actions on their own accord like when they sent Team Dark into the special stage. As well as having them be in conflict with the heroes while actually being on the same side.

 

Real simple stuff like we could do for any other character or group.

 

 

If their greatest contributions are only going to be relate to whatever Team Dark will do, then what can GUN do that Team Dark cannot by themselves? Each member of Team Dark all have enough reasons to throw themselves into a conflict without GUN telling them to do so, and all of them have some antagonism towards the heroes whenever they see fit. GUN's inclusion according to these parameters seems tertiary at best.  

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If their greatest contributions are only going to be relate to whatever Team Dark will do, then what can GUN do that Team Dark cannot by themselves? Each member of Team Dark all have enough reasons to throw themselves into a conflict without GUN telling them to do so, and all of them have some antagonism towards the heroes whenever they see fit. inclusion according to these parameters seems tertiary at best.
Their contributions aren't just something that relates to Team Dark, and in addition to what I previously said they can offer intel no one else has, materiel, personnel, resources, and operate in a lot more places at once than three people (or even 16 if you get the idea to use the whole cast) could. Once again, real simple stuff, practically the first things that should have come to your mind over a military organization like them.
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Personally Shadow should have a neutrality to Humans making him more of a free moral agent instead of their salvation.

 

That would kind of undermine his character development then.

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Personally Shadow should have a neutrality to Humans making him more of a free moral agent instead of their salvation.

Thus making the plot of SA2 and Shadow, null and void?

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That would kind of undermine his character development then.

What development? Shadow has no credible attachments to the human race. His game never cleared up whether he's forgiven them.

Thus making the plot of SA2 and Shadow, null and void?

Did Shadow state in the last ending of his game he'd put the past away. This his promise to Maria null?
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What development? Shadow has no credible attachments to the human race. His game never cleared up whether he's forgiven them.

Maria.

 

 

 

Did Shadow state in the last ending of his game he'd put the past away. This his promise to Maria null?

Didn't explicitly say, Maria's promise is null.

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What development? Shadow has no credible attachments to the human race. His game never cleared up whether he's forgiven them.

Maria.

 

Did Shadow state in the last ending of his game he'd put the past away. This his promise to Maria null?

"Today, I put the past behind me" Shadow the Hedgehog, Last Story(Shadow the Hedgehog.

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Shadow has saved the planet from the the Arc going towards the Earth and from the Black Comet. So he as forgiven the humans

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