The Shadow Topic

[Kuzu]

I don't think even Sega know what they want Shadow's personality to be ever since his game ended.

06=Stoic soldier focused on business

Colors DS= Stealth mentor to Sonic of sorts

Free Riders= Egotistical jackass

Generations= wants to fight Sonic for...some reason.

Its annoying, especially since its not hard to build a personality based on what's already happened to him.

[Scar]

I don't think even Sega know what they want Shadow's personality to be ever since his game ended.

06=Stoic soldier focused on business

Colors DS= Stealth mentor to Sonic of sorts

Free Riders= Egotistical jackass

Generations= wants to fight Sonic for...some reason.

Its annoying, especially since its not hard to build a personality based on what's already happened to him.

Shadow wanted to fight Sonic in Generations because that's what he was supposed to do in the game.

All the vs. Character fights in Gens had ropey reasons behind the fight, but that wasn't the point of it, so I wouldn't really count him in Gens.

Other than that I'm pretty sure that they're feeling around for what would work for Shadow in the future and may well end of testing a couple different character directions and gauging response or just seeing how it works out in the end. They'll probably stick to something they find that works, like the did with the Unleashed gameplay design.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And drop the fire-arms. Please.

I'm okay with him having a sniper rifle just to be a prick from 5 miles away.

[Kuzu]

Shadow wanted to fight Sonic in Generations because that's what he was supposed to do in the game.

All the vs. Character fights in Gens had ropey reasons behind the fight, but that wasn't the point of it, so I wouldn't really count him in Gens.

Yeah, but that's from a gameplay standpoint, in which its completely acceptable.But I'm speaking from a narrative standpoint, there's no real reason for them to be fighting each other other than "because the game said so." which is kind of a shallow reason to be honest.

[Bot Sweet]

Be more Goddamn Batmanesqe. Less of a egotistical tool who gets but hurt because he's not the ultimate. Mostly like is Sonic X incarnation, but more ties to his Sonic 06 and Free Riders personality.

[Darth InVaders]

As for his actual abilities, a general affinity with Chaos abilities works just fine. Limited abilities without an emerald, more power when he does have one. Seems simple enough, right? Chaos spears, some teleportation abilities, something akin to the Cyan Laser powerup for the sake of a unique gameplay gimmick. Whatever. As long as he isn't simply a Sonic clone, I'm good.

Unless you're talking Archie (which is the only Sonic canon that has the Chaos Force), Shadow cannot use Chaos Control without an Emerald... not even a limited Chaos Control - the definition of Chaos Control is the ability to use [the power of] the Chaos Emeralds to warp time and space (points to my thread that proved it again )

Edited February 22, 2012 by Darth InVaders

[Nerfuffle]

With that character’s life, powers, and back story being so unnecessarily confusing and peppered with comas, blackouts, mind alteration, and tomatoes in mirrors, one must wonder if he can even keep track of any of it himself.

Heck, he's probably convinced himself he's still in a coma. If he wants an ability hard enough, it comes true!

[Indigo Rush]

Unless you're talking Archie (which is the only Sonic canon that has the Chaos Force), Shadow cannot use Chaos Control without an Emerald... not even a limited Chaos Control - the definition of Chaos Control is the ability to use [the power of] the Chaos Emeralds to warp time and space (points to my thread that proved it again )

No emerald here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoNEHIIy4RA

Or here.

He can obviously teleport without an emerald.

[Darth InVaders]

*VIDEO Sonic06: Shadow's story opening*

No emerald here...

*VIDEO Shadow's game: opening promo*

Or here.

He can obviously teleport without an emerald.

You didn't look at my Chaos Emeralds & Chaos Control thread since you didn't bother to answer any of my points - most importantly being the zillions of official quotes that define Chaos Control as the ability to use [the power of] the Chaos Emeralds to warp time and space, which means no Chaos Emeralds (or a suitable substitute) no Chaos Control

But to answer your points:

The Sonic06 video in question has many issues with it making it argumentative

* For one, Shadow does not call his move like he often does with his first Chaos Control (I am aware that Shadow does not need to call out "Chaos Control" to use the ability - I'm pointing out that, because he does not, there are possible alternatives such as a "Quick Step" like dash of super speed)

* Secondly, the CG of Sonic06 was produced by several companies that Sonic Team hired, not an in-house team (according to the credits, those companies are: Aoki Prod., Blur Studio, Inc., Shirogumi Inc., Foro Grafico Co. Ltd., Gemba Inc.) - this creates a huge opportunity for communication to get screwed up, especially in a game with as many mistakes as this one

* Speaking of mistakes and contradictions: Sonic06 CONTRADICTS Chaos Control without Emeralds by having Shadow say "With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space" later in the same game; so he actually says that the Chaos Emerald grants him the power to use his ability later in the SAME GAME - also the absolute messiness of Sonic06: an actual BLOOPER makes it into the game (where a voice actor reads a line incorrectly, then corrects himself), NPCs cannot correctly direct Shadow's character to his Wave Ocean entrance (they say it's by the entrance to New City which is not even on the same island and is quite far away)

So basically this is extremely argumentative and thus weak evidence (unlike the zillions of quotes that define Chaos Control as using Emeralds' power, which need Emeralds or suitable substitutes to get some)

And the Shadow opening promo is not even evidence: it's an opening promo showing events that had not even happened yet, Shadow got his first Emerald almost immediately and had them for most of the game - saying this is evidence is saying the Black Arms invaded and Shadow fought them before they even met in the first actual cutscene

Edited February 22, 2012 by Darth InVaders

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You didn't look at my Chaos Emeralds & Chaos Control thread since you didn't bother to answer any of my points - most importantly being the zillions of official quotes that define Chaos Control as the ability to use [the power of] the Chaos Emeralds to warp time and space, which means no Chaos Emeralds (or a suitable substitute) no Chaos Control

I'm pretty sure it's been long established that it is possible for him to use Chaos Control without an emerald; the lack of an emerald makes his use of the abilities less powerful, or in this case only capable of teleporting a short distance.

In fact, I recall Black Doom stating that the Chaos Emeralds mainly amplify that power in ShTH.

[Darth InVaders]

I'm pretty sure it's been long established that it is possible for him to use Chaos Control without an emerald; the lack of an emerald makes his use of the abilities less powerful, or in this case only capable of teleporting a short distance.

In fact, I recall Black Doom stating that the Chaos Emeralds mainly amplify that power in ShTH.

Black Doom never said anything about zero Emeralds... he only explained his plan and why he needed all 7 Emeralds for his plan to work... his quote works perfectly fine with needing an Emerald to be at least within the vicinity to draw power from to power Chaos Control

[Indigo Rush]

I think it's funny that you're trying to prove a solid consistency in the Sonic series, with Shadow no less.

Shadow can teleport in Sonic Battle. No emerald there. I don't see why you're so uptight about that.

Besides, as Diogenes said in that very topic you linked me to:

So considering how much time Gerald spent researching the emeralds and Chaos Control, it's not unreasonable to think Shadow has some mechanism, be it biological, mechanical, or whatever, to create chaos energy.

Is that so difficult to accept?

Edited February 22, 2012 by Indigo Rush

[Penny]

First thing that needs to be done to make Shadow better:

Get rid of Kirk Thornton...

Honestly, that guy is terrible at voicing Shadow ("You've got this Sonic!"). Unless he gets better, I really wish they'd bring back Griffith (probably not gonna happen but here's hoping..).

If they do that, Shadow will be a ton better and I'll respect him again. (I think that Shadow was best in 06 tbh, mostly due to his voice)

[Badnik Mechanic]

First thing that needs to be done to make Shadow better:

Get rid of Kirk Thornton...

Honestly, that guy is terrible at voicing Shadow ("You've got this Sonic!"). Unless he gets better, I really wish they'd bring back Griffith (probably not gonna happen but here's hoping..).

So... sack someone based on one whole line of dialogue...

I guess pointing out that all the character VA's since Sonic Adventure tend to get better with each passing game is a tad pointless? Or that voice acting doesn't have too much to do with the characters actual placement in the game?

[Indigo Rush]

So we've moved from hating Griffith to wanting him back.

Love ya, fanbase.

Kirk sounds more like SA2 Shadow than Griffith ever did. I don't see how one line (which I don't see what the problem is with it in the first place) is enough to destroy the reputation of a voice actor.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Indigo Rush

[Solly]

Honestly, I thought he was best in Generations because he's serving his original purpose in a "Sonic's evil twin" role in an appropriately simple and cliched manner. None of his angst or backstory got in the way. Maybe you guys don't like that, but it's hard for me to want anything else when basically every other aspect to the character and his story is a complete disaster to me.

But as far as I'm concerned, Shadow's really kind of redundant no matter how you look at him. He doesn't have much to offer gameplay that Sonic doesn't. His story arc has been completed. And he's meant to be one of Sonic's doppelganger/rivals when he already has them. I'm okay with using him, but I don't really think we should be looking for ways to use him. If he's really got something to offer the series it should be natural.

This is just me talking, though.

[Neon]

So we've moved from hating Griffith to wanting him back.

Love ya, fanbase.

Kirk sounds more like SA2 Shadow than Griffith ever did. I don't see how one line (which I don't see what the problem is with it in the first place) is enough to destroy the reputation of a voice actor.

Laura Bailey's Omochao and Kate Higgins' Tails sound nothing like their original game voice actors. Doesn't stop them from being some of the best voice actors we've ever had in the series.

Honestly, for the most part, people seemed to be fine with Griffith's Shadow post-2006. I dislike Kirk's Shadow not because of one line, but because of every sentence and grunt I've heard of him in Free Riders, Colours and Generations.

[Tails spin]

Yeah, but that's from a gameplay standpoint, in which its completely acceptable.But I'm speaking from a narrative standpoint, there's no real reason for them to be fighting each other other than "because the game said so." which is kind of a shallow reason to be honest.

I have always felt that the rival fights in generations are how things were in said game, like sonic going back to the speific point where he and Shadow were not on good terms.

[Kuzu]

I have always felt that the rival fights in generations are how things were in said game, like sonic going back to the speific point where he and Shadow were not on good terms.

But Shadow & Silver are clearly acknowledging Sonic as if they've known each other already, really the whole games was a mess when it came to the boss fights.

Honestly, I thought he was best in Generations because he's serving his original purpose in a "Sonic's evil twin" role in an appropriately simple and cliched manner. None of his angst or backstory got in the way. Maybe you guys don't like that, but it's hard for me to want anything else when basically every other aspect to the character and his story is a complete disaster to me.

But as far as I'm concerned, Shadow's really kind of redundant no matter how you look at him. He doesn't have much to offer gameplay that Sonic doesn't. His story arc has been completed. And he's meant to be one of Sonic's doppelganger/rivals when he already has them. I'm okay with using him, but I don't really think we should be looking for ways to use him. If he's really got something to offer the series it should be natural.

This is just me talking, though.

That's like saying we shouldn't use any character other than Sonic because Sonic is already the hero, so what does he need a supporting cast for? Shadow's entire backstory and angst are things of the past that should have no bearing on what to do with him in the future. Shadow's no more redundant than Tails or Knuckles, and people go out of their minds for those two.

[Neon]

But Shadow & Silver are clearly acknowledging Sonic as if they've known each other already, really the whole games was a mess when it came to the boss fights.

I'm pretty sure the cutscenes with Shadow and Silver acknowledging Sonic directly, as well as the ending indicate that they were infact the 'current' ones. Metal Sonic being the only exception.

[Kuzu]

I'm pretty sure the cutscenes with Shadow and Silver acknowledging Sonic directly, as well as the ending indicate that they were infact the 'current' ones. Metal Sonic being the only exception.

....That's what I just said.

[Emerald Chaos]

I think it's funny that you're trying to prove a solid consistency in the Sonic series, with Shadow no less.

Shadow can teleport in Sonic Battle. No emerald there. I don't see why you're so uptight about that.

Besides, as Diogenes said in that very topic you linked me to:

"Quote"

Is that so difficult to accept?

I actually have some problems with that.

1) Sonic Battle is pretty non-canon

2) "Chaos Energy" doesn't exist in the games. There's been absolutely no examples (to my knowledge) of the Chaos Emerald's power existing without the use of the Chaos Emeralds. The term is never used either.

*ahem* Carry on...

[Darth InVaders]

I think it's funny that you're trying to prove a solid consistency in the Sonic series, with Shadow no less.

Shadow can teleport in Sonic Battle. No emerald there. I don't see why you're so uptight about that.

Besides, as Diogenes said in that very topic you linked me to:

Is that so difficult to accept?

Admittedly, it is funny to try to prove consistancy with the Sonic games... but there is far more substantial evidence that Shadow needs a Chaos Emerald

Aside from gameplay being weak evidence (see my thread's examples and more), and Sonic Battle itself contradicting SA2, your example actually works perfectly fine with needing a Chaos Emerald - Shadow spent almost the entire game with a Chaos Emerald, and when he gave it to Emerl, the only times he ever fought were with Emerl (and thus not just 1 but all 7 Emeralds were in the vicinity for him to draw power from)

And it is actually very difficult to accept what Diogenes said because it not only lacks tangible evidence outside of fan made speculation, it contradicts established canon

Emerald Chaos made some good points too

Edited February 22, 2012 by Darth InVaders

[Bot Sweet]

Honestly, I thought he was best in Generations because he's serving his original purpose in a "Sonic's evil twin" role in an appropriately simple and cliched manner. None of his angst or backstory got in the way. Maybe you guys don't like that, but it's hard for me to want anything else when basically every other aspect to the character and his story is a complete disaster to me.

But as far as I'm concerned, Shadow's really kind of redundant no matter how you look at him. He doesn't have much to offer gameplay that Sonic doesn't. His story arc has been completed. And he's meant to be one of Sonic's doppelganger/rivals when he already has them. I'm okay with using him, but I don't really think we should be looking for ways to use him. If he's really got something to offer the series it should be natural.

This is just me talking, though.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Bot Sweet

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And it is actually very difficult to accept what Diogenes said because it not only lacks tangible evidence outside of fan made speculation, it contradicts established canon

Emerald Chaos made some good points too

Edited February 22, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic