The Shadow Topic

[LoseR]

Y'know what they should do? I think they should have him play like he did in SA2, except using his chaos powers to differentiate him from Sonic. I mean, I think that'd be easy if they actually put some good thought into it...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Chaos Control has been used without physical contact with the Emeralds about as often as speculative examples of Shadow using Chaos Control without possession of them.

Speculative? Dude, Indigo just gave a video example of Shadow using Chaos Control to teleport after destroying an army of robots. Ain't nothing being speculated here.

And there's also examples of characters using the Emeralds for transformations which reinforces the idea that the emeralds can be used like that too.

We weren't talking about superforms.

Black Doom uses Chaos Control without direct contact with the Chaos Emeralds

They're in his possession, as I said before.

And as far as general usage is concerned, various transformations into super forms have involved the characters interacting with the Emeralds across large distances (The standout example being Sonic Unleashed where Sonic seems to summon the emeralds from the temples). If they can be interacted like that for transformations then it's entirely possible that Chaos Control can be used without direct contact with the emeralds.

Those are the main examples which come to mind.

You know I find it incredibly hypocritical when you call us using speculative examples and yet you're doing the exact same thing. Not to mention completely going into another subject.

We're talking about the fact that Shadow can use Chaos Control without an emerald. Not Super Transformation, not summoning the Chaos Emeralds, but using Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald, that's it. Stick to the subject, dude.

The idea that Shadow's power up in that scene involves the use of "chaos energy" is an assumption. My response was meant to inter that it's safer to make no assumption as to where the power comes from. I'm not trying to dodge an explanation. I'm saying that there is currently not enough evidence to make any sort of conclusion. We need to wait until Shadow uses it in future games and more is revealed about it. There's no precedent for any such ability involving "chaos energy" which doesn't somehow involve the use of the Chaos Emeralds.

Until you can explain the energy that Shadow released at the end of Sonic 06, there is no other information out there that states that it isn't Chaos Energy. Seriously, it involves his Chaos Powers, there's no other kind of power he can use to do things he does other than that which he is known to use. It's Chaos Energy, plain and simple.

The fandom as a group identifies it as such, and until you can explain what it is instead of writing it off as though you don't know, we're going to stick with calling it Chaos Energy. There's no "I don't know" when there's already something to fall back on to explain it.

I'm just going to say now that I really have no idea why you seem to be so irritated over this. I mean, it's cool if you disagree, but you're coming off as almost being hostile over exactly nothing.

I'm not, or atleast I'm not trying to. iIt's not easy to convey emotion through text unless I'm using emoticons. I'm really doing it for emphasis.

Not ragging on combat JUST because it's combat. I'm doing it because it's basically never been good, Knuckles included. All I was saying was that Knuckles HAS offered something I like to Sonic gameplay before, and Shadow hasn't. That's all.

And I didn't really bring up the classic games with the intent on differentiating them to modern ones, because as far as I'm concerned, if Knuckles worked in those, he can work in a 3D environment too. 2D has nothing to do with it for me because finding a way to use his powers is pretty easy.

Not saying it's IMPOSSIBlE to do anything else, but SEGA sure hasn't thought of it yet, and that's my point. I'm not designing the games here.

I'm not designing games either, but I become suspicious of people who criticize and offer nothing but that. I read your last post as exactly what you said it wasn't, so clearly there's a bit of misunderstanding here.

Chaos Spear hurts/stuns enemies. Chaos Blast destroys enemies in a radius around Shadow. I can't think of a non-gimmicky way to use those in a way that aren't combat related.

Activating switches from a distance? Destroying obstacles in the way? These are are things that Sonic and Knuckles have been capable of in 2D titles, but from up close.

I think the reason I like characters like Tails and Knuckles more is because what they have to offer the series is more obvous to me. I really don't even know what else to say to this.

It being more obvious is something that I'm not against you for liking, but I do have to say that if being obvious is what makes things more appealing, then it can result in you being short-sighted to everything else.

And holy shit, I don't hate Shadow. Honest. Just voicing my opinion on the character and saying that I don't think they have much they could do with him at present. They could invent new powers for him or whatever, rewrite his character, I don't care. But I don't see why people get so defensive about this kind of stuff.

Having a character you like subject to rabid attacks by haters can do that to someone I suppose.

But if it really pleases you, and you want a suggestion THAT BAD, I'll offer something, even if it's far from percfect.

How about using the teleportation power to pass through solid objects? I had thought about this one a lot, but I felt it was too gimmicky. I dunno, maybe someone here will like it.

It's something I'll give you that. I'm not particularly impressed because that's really been around for a long time, But at least I'm hearing some constructive criticism nonetheless.

Again, I don't see why it feels like you're making this out to be a federal case. I wasn't totally dismissing the character and saying SEGA should never ever use him again. I was saying that they hit a dead end with him.

I'll admit, I got a bit defensive there.

At the same time, I'm putting you on the edge here so that I can see if you can figure out how to deal with what you see is a dead end. We hear a lot about how Shadow is too similar to Sonic and there's little they can do with him, yet these are often the same people who dislike the character to the extent that they don't want him to be used.

It's either that or the other argument I'm in with this whole Chaos Control argument might have ME on edge and it's leaking into this argument.

[Solly]

Y'know what they should do? I think they should have him play like he did in SA2, except using his chaos powers to differentiate him from Sonic. I mean, I think that'd be easy if they actually put some good thought into it...

I think Sonic himself would need other things to differentiate himself if that were the case. One of the problems with the older games, in my eyes, is that the only thing that made Sonic unique (besides Super Sonic) was that he was the basis on which the other characters were made, and in a sense, inferior because of it. Of course Sonic was fun to play as too, and often more fun, but I don't think any character should be "Sonic + extra stuff." They should be "like Sonic, except this this and this are different."

I'm not, or atleast I'm not trying to. iIt's not easy to convey emotion through text unless I'm using emoticons. I'm really doing it for emphasis.

Man, I understand that, but it's hard to tell when you say stuff like "don't give me that crap."

Activating switches from a distance? Destroying obstacles in the way? These are are things that Sonic and Knuckles have been capable of in 2D titles, but from up close.

That could work for Chaos Spear I guess. Chaos Blast seems like overkill for that kind of thing, but both sound kinda gimmicky.

Then again, I do like the basic puzzle solving elements of the classic games, like the block-in-hole stuff in Marble Zone.

It being more obvious is something that I'm not against you for liking, but I do have to say that if being obvious is what makes things more appealing, then it can result in you being short-sighted to everything else.

That seems fair.

Having a character you like subject to rabid attacks by haters can do that to someone I suppose.

This is the Sonic fandom. Welcome. Welcome to HATE.

At the same time, I'm putting you on the edge here so that I can see if you can figure out how to deal with what you see is a dead end. We hear a lot about how Shadow is too similar to Sonic and there's little they can do with him, yet these are often the same people who dislike the character to the extent that they don't want him to be used.

Hnng, you shot down my suggestion anyway. The truth is, I'm really not all that creative. I couldn't really think of all that much Shadow can do that I want to see in a game, and wouldn't be gimmicky, and didn't involve creating new powers. That's more or less why I didn't have more to say.

And actually, even though I don't like Shadow, I WANT him to be used. I just want him to be used in a way that works and not shoehorned in.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Solly

[Emerald Chaos]

I'm starting to think that an alternative thread would be a better place to hold this discussion, since it's moved more away from the qualities of Shadow and more on to qualities of the Chaos Emeralds and their uses in general. I think I'll create a thread describing my views on the nature of the Chaos Emeralds (I also think that would help clarify where I stand) and we can continue this debate there, if you don't mind.

Speculative? Dude, Indigo just gave a video example of Shadow using Chaos Control to teleport after destroying an army of robots. Ain't nothing being speculated here.

OK, I put that badly. I was pretty tired when I wrote that. I have no choice but to really eat my words there since, yes, a fair amount of the points both of us bring up will be speculation and what I'm arguing is that the evidence supports my ideas more than the alternative and that they make more sense in the overall context of the series.

What I should have written there was "inconsistencies". Yes, that flash was probably Shadow using Chaos Control, but his usage of Chaos Control without an Emerald is certainly not the norm. InVader brought up several quotes where Shadow implied that Chaos Control was performed using the Chaos Emeralds, but you dismissed them stating that they don't contradict

Yet, why even mention the Chaos Emeralds if they're not a requirement? That seems redundant, doesn't it?

They're in his possession, as I said before.

OK, by your standards what are the prerequisites for possession of the emeralds if it doesn't involve touching them?

You know I find it incredibly hypocritical when you call us using speculative examples and yet you're doing the exact same thing. Not to mention completely going into another subject.

We're talking about the fact that Shadow can use Chaos Control without an emerald. Not Super Transformation, not summoning the Chaos Emeralds, but using Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald, that's it. Stick to the subject, dude.

OK, I can see why I came off as such, again I apologize. But the two points ARE related. Both transformations and Chaos Control involve tapping into the power of the chaos emeralds. If you can tap into the power from a distance for one, why would you be unable to do so for another?

Until you can explain the energy that Shadow released at the end of Sonic 06, there is no other information out there that states that it isn't Chaos Energy. Seriously, it involves his Chaos Powers, there's no other kind of power he can use to do things he does other than that which he is known to use. It's Chaos Energy, plain and simple.

The fandom as a group identifies it as such, and until you can explain what it is instead of writing it off as though you don't know, we're going to stick with calling it Chaos Energy. There's no "I don't know" when there's already something to fall back on to explain it.

The problem is, though, Chaos Energy IS still just a fan construct. Or, if not a fan construct, a construct from other official media such as the various comic book series. The reason I joined in this debate was to challenge that widely held view of the nature of the Chaos Emerald's power

Really, the power up could be anything. It COULD be some kind of alternate power source for Shadow. It could be Shadow's natural full strength limited by those rings. There's no reason why it HAS to be "Chaos Energy"

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm starting to think that an alternative thread would be a better place to hold this discussion, since it's moved more away from the qualities of Shadow and more on to qualities of the Chaos Emeralds and their uses in general. I think I'll create a thread describing my views on the nature of the Chaos Emeralds (I also think that would help clarify where I stand) and we can continue this debate there, if you don't mind.

OK, I put that badly. I was pretty tired when I wrote that. I have no choice but to really eat my words there since, yes, a fair amount of the points both of us bring up will be speculation and what I'm arguing is that the evidence supports my ideas more than the alternative and that they make more sense in the overall context of the series.

What I should have written there was "inconsistencies". Yes, that flash was probably Shadow using Chaos Control, but his usage of Chaos Control without an Emerald is certainly not the norm. InVader brought up several quotes where Shadow implied that Chaos Control was performed using the Chaos Emeralds, but you dismissed them stating that they don't contradict

Yet, why even mention the Chaos Emeralds if they're not a requirement? That seems redundant, doesn't it?

It isn't redundant. As I've said once before, the use of the Chaos Emeralds amplifies Chaos Control; in other words it, makes it much more stronger.

He can use Chaos Control with or without an emerald, but if he has an emerald in his possession the effects it would be much stronger as a result.

OK, by your standards what are the prerequisites for possession of the emeralds if it doesn't involve touching them?

Without physical contact, possession of the emeralds would be them hovering around the person who's using them. Not simply being in the vicinity.

OK, I can see why I came off as such, again I apologize. But the two points ARE related. Both transformations and Chaos Control involve tapping into the power of the chaos emeralds. If you can tap into the power from a distance for one, why would you be unable to do so for another?

Because to transform, you NEED the Chaos Emeralds; not only do you need them, but you can't even tap into a transformation if you have so much as one Emerald missing.

Chaos Control doesn't work that way. The energy is more stored in the character who is capable of absorbing and releasing it, or in more vague cases generating your own. An example of a vague case would be Metal Sonic using Chaos Control against Team Super Sonic in Heroes. Sonic and the gang were already in control of the Chaos Emeralds, and yet Metal Sonic could still Chaos Control them to a halt despite the emeralds being used against him; that has more of a relation to the "Chaos Data" he absorbed, but it's an example worth noting.

Hell, I'd dare say it can be manufactured, since Tails was capable of creating a fake emerald and Sonic was capable of using that to perform Chaos Control to save himself at the last minute in SA2 where the whole concept was introduced. I'd challenge you to work around that one.

The problem is, though, Chaos Energy IS still just a fan construct. Or, if not a fan construct, a construct from other official media such as the various comic book series. The reason I joined in this debate was to challenge that widely held view of the nature of the Chaos Emerald's power.

Chaos Energy is just a simplified way of saying "Energy from Chaos Emeralds", but that doesn't dictate that said energy cannot be transfered into another container for later use.

Even more, it also doesn't say that said energy can't be drained from them either. Two examples of this is when Chaos absorbs all the negative energy from the Emerald and uses it to become Perfect Chaos and leave the emeralds in a near-drained state leaving only the positive energy; the second example comes from Unleashed where Eggman completely drains the Chaos Emeralds of their power by ripping it directly out of Super Sonic's body and shooting it straight to the earth to awaken Dark Gaia.

Those only go to show that said energy can be transferred and used elsewhere. And with that in mind, it wouldn't be too farfetched to think that Shadow couldn't do this himself, hence why he is capable of using his chaos powers without an Emerald despite them being less powerful than they would with one.

Really, the power up could be anything. It COULD be some kind of alternate power source for Shadow. It could be Shadow's natural full strength limited by those rings. There's no reason why it HAS to be "Chaos Energy"

Oh, cut the nonsense. There's absolutely no reason it CAN be anything other than "Chaos Energy", because that's the only power he is capable of using to perform his abilities. No lightning power, no water power, no fire power, no star power, etc. There's no other alternate power source Shadow has ever used except for that derived from the Chaos Emeralds. If it is some alternate power source, then what in the blue hell is it? And why the hell can't you explain what it is if you're certain it is something else entirely? Because "it COULD be something else" is a very half-assed attempt to deny it from being what many been calling it for years.

There's no way in hell you can justify it being something else when there is nothing else he is capable of using. What's worse is that you're basically making up something out of nothing here when you settle on the idea that it "could" be something else. You want to talk about being speculation or being inconsistent, you're completely shooting yourself in the foot arguing that it could be something else because you're doing just that.

As I've said before, Chaos Energy is just what fans happen to call energy derived from the Chaos Emeralds; in the same manner people call power derived from water "Water Power", or that from fire "Fire Power", or powers derived from psychic abilities "Psychic powers", all of which Shadow is incapable of using for his abilities. You're arguing over semantics for the sake of arguing here. There's too much of a connection here for it to be anything else, as he wouldn't name his abilities with the word "chaos" at the beginning if it weren't anything derived from said energy.

Edited February 23, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Darth InVaders]

Seriously? Seriously??? Are you going to propose that it is a different move simply because Shadow does not act like a generic anime character in that particular instance? Shadow just pulls some other method of teleportation out of his ass.

What does it contradict, specifically? It's not contradicting the stuff that says he can use Chaos Control with an emerald, because that's still true; he can and does use Chaos Control with an emerald, whether or not he can also do it without one.

Which in no way precludes acquiring that "power" through means other than an emerald.

Except, again, not a single one of these goes against the possibility of Shadow being able to use Chaos Control without an emerald. They merely state that he can do it with one.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Darth InVaders

[Diogenes]

I feel like I'm repeating myself on this one: but one of several possibilities is that it is a dash of speed (he is a super fast character after all)

[Emerald Chaos]

OK, clearing some things up.

It isn't redundant. As I've said once before, the use of the Chaos Emeralds amplifies Chaos Control; in other words it, makes it much more stronger.

He can use Chaos Control with or without an emerald, but if he has an emerald in his possession the effects it would be much stronger as a result.

[Darth InVaders]

He's standing still, then he disappears in a flash of blue light! It's a fucking teleport! You are taking the most ass-backwards way of looking at things just to preserve your theory. If you're going to continue this intellectual dishonesty, there's no point in even talking with you; you're ignoring the evidence in favor of preserving your own artificial world.

It is not the clearest, most unambiguous wording possible, but it does not contradict anything.

And you keep saying "base form", what does that mean? How do you determine that CC with an emerald is the "base form" with no possibility of a weaker one?

What?

In other words, Shadow is shocked that that faker could have used his move, and with a weak emerald no less.

No, my logic does not in any way claim that. The statement, "Shadow is able to harness the power of the Chaos Emerald to warp time and space", is true. I propose that the statement, "Shadow is able to generate Chaos energy to warp time and space" is also true. These are not contradictory; he has both the ability to use the emeralds, and the ability to generate the energy himself.

I'm not even going to address the rest of this until you can explain what "base form" means.

No, I am not. You are insisting there is a contradiction where there isn't, simply because it is not stated in the most unambiguous wording possible.

If Chaos Drives are essentially artificial emeralds, and Chaos Drives were around during Shadow's creation, it's plausible that Shadow contains/is something similar to a Chaos Drive, which would explain how he could teleport without an emerald.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Darth InVaders

[Diogenes]

If the Chaos Emeralds amplified it, instead of allowing him to use Chaos Control then wouldn't it say that instead? Wouldn't his profiles say something more like "Shadow's special skill is Chaos Control. The effects of which are amplified when he has possession of a Chaos Emerald."

[Emerald Chaos]

Why not? For all we know Shadow may have a chunk of crystal sitting atop his liver. Or, it may take an entirely different form; Tails' fake looks like a real emerald, but there's no proof that an artificial Chaos-energy-creating thing has to be a jewel.

[Diogenes]

But there's no proof that anything in the games has ever been able to recreate a Chaos Emerald's power other than another Chaos Emerald or something created specifically with the same properties.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Metal Overlord did not create its own energy, the Emeralds were right there within the vicinity to draw power from.

Edited February 23, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Darth InVaders]

Why not? For all we know Shadow may have a chunk of crystal sitting atop his liver. Or, it may take an entirely different form; Tails' fake looks like a real emerald, but there's no proof that an artificial Chaos-energy-creating thing has to be a jewel.

No evidence, just your speculation that was made in attempt to prove your conclusion - "it makes sense" is not evidence of anything, it is just unsupported speculation. Your argument is built on far more speculation than mine. In fact the only speculation I've used is to undermine your argument's one good example.

Because the emeralds don't merely contain energy, they produce it as well. Chaos sucked out all the energy that was sitting inside them, but they still had the ability to produce more (from Sonic's thoughts and feelings, specifically). That's where their "unlimited" power comes from.

I agree with you there - the Emeralds generate their power by transforming thoughts into more - positive thoughts (hope, happiness) creates positive power, negative thoughts (anger, sadness) creates negative energy

You are delusional. A character with a known teleporting ability disappears in a flash of light and you deny that it is said teleporting ability, instead insisting that he has gained the ability to accelerate instantly to light speed from a standstill, and never shows that ability again.

It is not unreasonable (it is an anime-ish type trope also used in the Sonic OVA movie) but I've also called it a possible mistake made by the 3rd party CG makers that Sonic Team farmed Sonic06's CG out to - the game was more than messy enough for it to be plausible (seriously, it is so bad that the game includes a BLOOPER by a voice actor), especially in light of all the evidence that Chaos Control needs an Emerald (the profiles and cutscenes - many of which I've quoted)

No, it doesn't. This is literally nonsense; that line merely points out a fact, it says nothing of the relative rarity of abilities.

I was applying your logic to it and demonstrating how it fails, do you want to apply your logic to another quote "Possessing the power to use Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control.." - again it sounds like the power to use the Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control is more rare than the power to use Chaos control at any time - so the line is clearly saying the basic usage of Chaos Control uses Chaos Emeralds

I say that Shadow himself is a suitable substitute, actually. Regardless, you're just asserting that it's referring to a base form, in spite of it saying nothing of the sort.

You make an assertion without evidence - your assertion is made to support your conclusion

The difference between the profiles and other cutscenes and the Doom cutscene is that the profiles are explaining the basics of Chaos Control - which uses Emeralds - Doom was explaining the more advanced Chaos Control - which grows in power as more Emeralds are added (until reaching full power at 7)

No, they just say that Shadow uses the emeralds to perform Chaos Control. It doesn't say anything about what "form" of Chaos Control, and it's absolutely true that Shadow uses the emeralds to perform Chaos Control; that's how he usually does it.

You know what I'm going to say here... but I would like to ask if you have any time he ever called out "Chaos Control" and used the technique without an Emerald

No, but Black Doom did.

Like already explained - Doom was explaining why he needed all 7, not explaining how Chaos Control doesn't need an Emerald (which by the way, is a whole in your logic - you say Shadow can generate his own energy like a Chaos Emerald - which you say only he can do - meanwhile you claim Black Doom said Emeralds are not required, and Black Doom isn't pointing out any distinction between different character - which would mean that anybody who can do Chaos Control does not need Emeralds, in fact you do not even need power that is the same wavelength and properties as an Emerald - which is totally contradicting in both your argument and to the canonized definition of Chaos Control)

Again this all comes down to your steadfast refusal to admit that shows him using chaos control when he does not have any emeralds. If you had any respect for logical thought and the scientific method you would know that sometimes, when new evidence comes in, you have to admit that you are wrong, and reconsider existing theories.

Respect for scietific method would include looking for the overwhelming amount of evidence - more evidence points to needing an Emerald or substitute - no evidence points at Shadow being a suitable substitute outside of your speculation (you have a conclusion and say "I know he can do this, therefore he must also be able to do this" - the conclusion is evidence enough to you)

Yes because the series is flawlessly written and there are no plotholes whatsoever

And this is why I have doubts about your one piece of strongest evidence

I take it you're going to completely ignore the whole plot points where he was gaining the data of the characters capable of generating the energy? You know the whole "Chaos Data...successfully copied" or "Ultimate lifeform Data, successfully copied"? You know, the characters who have been shown capable of using Chaos Energy or had some contact with a being capable of using said energy without the Emeralds?

Actually I'm not, Chaos does not generate power like a Chaos Emerald, nor does Shadow - but he copied their abilities - Chaos Control is still a character-specific ability, even if it is one that must be powered by an Emerald or a suitable substitute - Metal Overlord's form bore some physical resemblance to Perfect Chaos (and its ability to control metal to make said form may have been a version of Chaos's ability to control water - but that is my own fan-speculation, don't quote me) plus he could draw power from Team Super's Emeralds for Chaos Control which he got from Shadow - works perfectly fine

No, the Emeralds were orbiting Shadow, then they orbited Black Doom who ended up gaining control over them. If he could do it from the vicinity, he wouldn't need them to come towards him to take control. He'd do it while Shadow alread had them on him.

Emeralds are shown to gravitate toward the one(s) drawing power - they did exactly the same a short time later with Shadow turning super, did it before in SA2 with Sonic & Shadow when they were scattered around the copied Shrine of the Emerald, and did it again when they were scattered around Gaia Colossus in Unleashed when Sonic turned super - unless you're claiming they all have Silver's pyschokinetic ability which wouldn't make sense

Dude, learn to read, because that is definitely not what I said.

If so much one Emerald is missing, NOT close by, NOT in the vicinity, NOT 2 feet away, (because that would mean by definition they are NOT missing) but flat out missing, gone, elsewhere, not nearby, halfway around the world, in another far away area (how much further would I need to spell it out? Do I need to draw a picture?), then you cannot tap into the supertransformation. PERIOD. That's been established since Sonic 2 on the Genesis.

It looked like you were claiming that Emeralds need physical contact - sorry I only skim what you said to Emerald Chaos

@3:01 Black Doom - "The Emeralds amplify the space-time control powers of Chaos Control."

Oddly worded, but spelled out in plain english. The emeralds make the effects stronger, not that it's only possible through them. The series has been building upon the ability ever since it was introduced dude.

And like I said, he was explaining his plan and why he needed all 7 Emeralds - he was not explaining Chaos Control not needing any Emeralds. More Emeralds = more power for Chaos Control with all 7 Emeralds = full power - that is all he was saying and why he needed them all for his plan. I agree it was oddly worded, most of that game's script was.

How hard is it to spell out to you that it is possible for the energy to be generated?

The existence of a fake emerald of all things that allows Chaos Control to still be performed goes to show that it is possible to manufacture the effects artificially, i.e. Chaos Control can be done by the energy alone. If that wasn't the case, then the fake emerald shouldn't have allowed Sonic to Chaos Control in the first place, since it wouldn't have the energy the real emeralds have. Shadow happens to be able to store that energy, like a living battery, so it's not that hard to assume that he can use it without the Chaos Emeralds in the same way Sonic used a fake one to achieve the exact same effects.

Fake Emerald had same wavelength and properties - it was clearly spelled out with quotable evidence - you have no quotable or tangible evidence that Shadow can store or create energy from the Emeralds outside of your speculation

I was talking about both. I mean, this isn't even an argument we should be having when it's been spelled out to us so easily that a 10 year old fan could put the two together.

Shadow can generate Chaos Energy for him to use without an emerald, but the effects are less powerful than it would be if he had one. Plain and simple dude. You're making it more complex than it really is.

The many quotes I've posted spell it out quite differently - and you are bouncing back and forth between storing power from the Emeralds and outright generating his own

Shadow clearly needed an Emerald in SA2, in fact he freaked out when he found out when he found there were suitable substitutes (going as far as to say it is impossible: "there's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control... using an Emerald that's fake)" which was a plot point. He needed an Emerald so badly that Sonic Heroes used its own gameplay to crap on canon and give him an 8th Emerald (the Emerald that Shadow could pull out in Team Blast before his team collected any of the 7 Emeralds). In Sonic Battle he either had an Emerald or he was near them (he only used it once in a cutscene and had an Emerald). In Shadow's game it was the same thing with them either being on him or in the vicinity (he collected his 1st Emerald before he could use any of his Chaos powers, which is another telling fact). In Sonic 06 he has that weird cutscene and then blatantly contradicts it later by saying "With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space", and also never uses Chaos Control any other time without an Emerald. The Sonic Channel profile and the Sonic Rivals profile continue saying exactly the same thing as the original Adventure 2 profile and cutscenes, there has been no change in the general language.

You guys are putting too much stock into speculation and your strongest evidence, that one cutscene.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Darth InVaders

[Diogenes]

No evidence, just your speculation

Edited February 24, 2012 by Diogenes

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Actually I'm not, Chaos does not generate power like a Chaos Emerald, nor does Shadow - but he copied their abilities - Chaos Control is still a character-specific ability, even if it is one that must be powered by an Emerald or a suitable substitute - Metal Overlord's form bore some physical resemblance to Perfect Chaos (and its ability to control metal to make said form may have been a version of Chaos's ability to control water - but that is my own fan-speculation, don't quote me) plus he could draw power from Team Super's Emeralds for Chaos Control which he got from Shadow - works perfectly fine

You know, I keep hearing you claim we have no evidence to back up our points or that our arguments are weak.

Where the hell is your evidence that shows that Metal Overlord was drawing the power of Team Super Sonic's Emeralds to use Chaos Control? You'd think that if he could actually use their power against them, then Team Super Sonic wouldn't have been capable of actually beating them.

Emeralds are shown to gravitate toward the one(s) drawing power - they did exactly the same a short time later with Shadow turning super, did it before in SA2 with Sonic & Shadow when they were scattered around the copied Shrine of the Emerald, and did it again when they were scattered around Gaia Colossus in Unleashed when Sonic turned super - unless you're claiming they all have Silver's pyschokinetic ability which wouldn't make sense

And who the hell was the one drawing it's power when they were gravitating towards them? Clearly not the character they were moving away from, am I wrong?

And like I said, he was explaining his plan and why he needed all 7 Emeralds - he was not explaining Chaos Control not needing any Emeralds. More Emeralds = more power for Chaos Control with all 7 Emeralds = full power - that is all he was saying and why he needed them all for his plan. I agree it was oddly worded, most of that game's script was.

Oh this is cake. Here we have a character who is flat out telling us the Chaos Emeralds amplify the power, i.e. it makes the power stronger, and yet you're telling me all he's doing is explaining his plans and that what he's saying is that Chaos Control needs an emerald.

Okay, so do you mind explaining to me how Shadow has been performing Chaos Control while Black Doom is at the center of the base with all the Chaos Emeralds in his possession? Shadow clearly shouldn't be capable of that unless he has a Chaos Emerald on his hand...and yet he's capable of performing Chaos Control despite that.

Sound more to me like you just don't want to admit you're wrong here. And to think I always thought I was the most stubborn person on these message boards.

Fake Emerald had same wavelength and properties - it was clearly spelled out with quotable evidence

And yet it's not the same as an actual Chaos Emerald, hence why they call it fake. Since you're mouthing on and on about evidence, care to explain to me how the hell they were capable of making a fake Emerald in the first place and the evidence to prove it?

- you have no quotable or tangible evidence that Shadow can store or create energy from the Emeralds outside of your speculation

The fact that he's been capable of performing Chaos Control without them, which requires energy to do, isn't evidence enough? How about all that energy he released at the end of his story arc of Sonic 06 after taking off his rings? That didn't come from the Chaos Emeralds Mephilies had in his possession otherwise there was no point in taking those inhibitor rings off. That energy came straight out of Shadow's body, and as I said to Emerald Chaos, he cannot use any other energy source.

The many quotes I've posted spell it out quite differently - and you are bouncing back and forth between storing power from the Emeralds and outright generating his own

Because he has to do one or the other to perform abilities without a Chaos Emerald. And it could be either one, or even BOTH.

Shadow clearly needed an Emerald in SA2, in fact he freaked out when he found out when he found there were suitable substitutes (going as far as to say it is impossible: "there's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control... using an Emerald that's fake)" which was a plot point. He needed an Emerald so badly that Sonic Heroes used its own gameplay to crap on canon and give him an 8th Emerald (the Emerald that Shadow could pull out in Team Blast before his team collected any of the 7 Emeralds). In Sonic Battle he either had an Emerald or he was near them (he only used it once in a cutscene and had an Emerald). In Shadow's game it was the same thing with them either being on him or in the vicinity (he collected his 1st Emerald before he could use any of his Chaos powers, which is another telling fact). In Sonic 06 he has that weird cutscene and then blatantly contradicts it later by saying "With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space", and also never uses Chaos Control any other time without an Emerald. The Sonic Channel profile and the Sonic Rivals profile continue saying exactly the same thing as the original Adventure 2 profile and cutscenes, there has been no change in the general language.

Despite the fact that you have seen him do otherwise?

You ever think that "contradiction" ever told you, "Gee, maybe he can do so without an emerald" instead of "it's a contradiction and they made a mess of things"? Because I honestly don't see how we're having an easier time making sense of all this while you continue to throw away examples that makes variations of what is already established as something that makes no sense.

You know what? Speaking of contradictions, you know how Sonic and Shadow performed a joint Chaos Control in SA2 to transport the ARK back into orbit? How the hell does performing another joint Chaos Control create a wormhole that acts as a time portal?

You guys are putting too much stock into speculation and your strongest evidence, that one cutscene.

And you are just blocking for the sake of acting like you have the stronger argument here, despite there being examples that flat out weaken it.

You see Shadow perform these abilities against what you claim, instead of seeing it as him being capable of doing so without an emerald, you take the harder route and call it a contradiction rather than accept it as him doing it on his own energy.

[Kuzu]

Oh for fuck's sake, Shadow can use Chaos Control without an emerald ok? Just because a bunch of quotes and profiles mention that uses Chaos Emeralds with the move, doesn't mean he absolutely needs it, and bitching and saying "nuu, its not Chaos Control cause the quotes says this" is bullshit, nobody has any evidence that he CAN'T use the move without an emerald, and using quotes as evidence of all things is bullshit. The quotes can say whatever the hell they want, I'm going by what I've seen, and I've seen is Shadow using Chaos Control without an emerald. End of discussion.

[Darth InVaders]

Yes, my speculation to explain

Which you admit is speculation without any official source, unlike the quotes

Yes, but my argument is not built on delusions and ridiculous bent-over-backwards justifications to explain away

You are being quite rude, this debate was quite civil until you joined - and yes, you are using bent over backwards justifications to explain away the quotes

Yes it is. Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? Do not multiply entities beyond necessity. Shadow already has a known ability that allows him to teleport (Chaos Control). In

he teleports, in a way that resembles Chaos Control (the blue color, especially, given '06 came after ShtH, which used blue for Hero Mode/Chaos Control). Rather than propose that Shadow has acquired some entirely new method of teleportation, it is far more reasonable to assume that he uses the teleportation ability that he already has.

Because the quotes say otherwise,

-"...he must be using the Chaos Emerald to warp" clearly means the Emerald is the enabler, even says "must be"

-"...there's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control... using an Emerald that's fake." clearly surprised about suitable substitutes for the enabler (makes absolutely no sense if he is one), even says "no way"

-"With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space" clearly means the Emerald is the enabler - notice the singular "a" in front of "Chaos Emerald"; he even holds up the Emerald to reference it

-"He is given the ability of Chaos Control to distort time and space using the Chaos Emeralds" says nothing about Emeralds enhancing an existing ability, clearly Emeralds are the standard tool with which to use it

-"Shadow has a special ability called 'Chaos Control' which allows him to warp time and space using Chaos Emeralds" again, Emeralds shown to be standard tool; also look at the word "allows" which comes directly in front of a full phrase that includes "using Chaos Emeralds" but I think I prefer the quote farther down for applying your logic to now

-"Shadow is able to harness the power of the Chaos Emerald to warp time and space" harness does not mean create; so clearly the enabler

- "...and can use a technique known as 'Chaos Control' to distort time & space using Chaos Emeralds."

-"Possessing the power to use Chaos Emeralds to perform Chaos Control..." looking at your logic again, so he possesses the power to use them for his Chaos Control huh? how can you not understand how your logic fails on this one from that "rarity of abilities" thing - by your logic this quotes separates the power to use the Emeralds from the power to use Chaos Control and insinuates that one must possess the power to use the Emeralds to perform Chaos Control even if they can use Chaos Control without them... that does not make sense

And I am not proposing some new method of teleportation for Shadow (side note: Chaos Control has not been called "teleportation" in game canon, Chaos Control is universally blanketed as a "warp")

"Can use Chaos Control with a Chaos Emerald" does not mean "must use an emerald to use Chaos Control".

Where does it say "can" in relation to the Emeralds in those quotes? It only says he is "using" the Emeralds - huge difference; is that why you are not able to understand these quotes? you keep putting "can" in front of "using" the Emeralds

I shouldn't need to; if you'd get your head out of your ass you'd be able to admit that

I've called it weak evidence, ambiguous or a possible mistake - you should get your head out of your ass about the quotes

There's also

but I'm sure you have some inane justification as to why that doesn't count.

Yes but its not inane - in fact it is fully consistant with what I've already argued: Emeralds were still in the vicinity to draw power from (and that is aside from how gameplay is also the weakest evidence - what with an unexplained 8 Emeralds in Heroes because of Team Dark's Team Blast, Amy stealing Espio's invisibility, among others - you seemed to agree when you called cutscenes the strongest evidence)

No, it could just mean that Doom doesn't, either. A proposal: Black Doom has a genetic ability to generate Chaos energy and perform Chaos Control. Shadow inherited the same powers, due to being made from his blood.

Clearly Doom did not say that - that proposal is more of your speculation - an attempt to justify your conclusion in lieu of tangible evidence

Who says? I know damn well I never said that.

Applying your logic to Doom's quote, Doom did not differentiate at all; I am showing that his complete and utter lack of explanation about zero Emeralds is very tell-tale that he was only talking about his plan and his need for all 7 Emeralds

Please don't try to lecture me when you refuse to acknowledge

Even if every other instance of Chaos Control conforms to your theory, if even one instance doesn't, your theory must be modified or discarded.

And you refuse to acknowledge it because it skewers your argument instantly. It's the silver bullet for your werewolf.

And yet Peter Parker was twice called Peter Palmer in his early comics under Stan Lee's pen after having Parker established - fiction is not without plotholes and stuff that contradicts canon - not only does it happen, Sonic overall is pretty messy with its canon, and your strongest evidence is from the messiest game of all - so no, one instance does not equate to a retcon, change in canon, or absolute proof that a prevailing understanding with all other evidence going its way is wrong. What was that about Occam's Razor again?

You know, I keep hearing you claim we have no evidence to back up our points or that our arguments are weak.

Never said "no evidence" in regards to your entire argument - you have evidence in that sonic06 cutscene, but I've called it weak evidence. I have said you have no evidence to back up your speculation that you've created that Shadow can create Chaos Emerald power (thus a living Chaos Emerald) or that Shadow is a battery for storing Chaos Emerald power - vital points for your argument because Chaos Control's definition requires said power (basically, you made a conclusion from weak evidence, then you back it up with speculation)

Where the hell is your evidence that shows that Metal Overlord was drawing the power of Team Super Sonic's Emeralds to use Chaos Control? You'd think that if he could actually use their power against them, then Team Super Sonic wouldn't have been capable of actually beating them.

Black Doom drew power from the Emeralds as they orbited Shadow, lots of Super transformations show power being drawn from afar - the precedence for vicinity argument is pretty strong and stretches back pretty far - the original games said the Emeralds' power spread throughout South Island - put some speculation in to note that the same is true of the Master Emerald, which was not even on the airborne (though rocking) Angel Island during Knuckles battle with Super Mecha Sonic (yes it is speculation, we're not talking about the ME)

And who the hell was the one drawing it's power when they were gravitating towards them? Clearly not the character they were moving away from, am I wrong?

I don't understand what your point is... and since there is only one circumstance where they gravitate from a character toward a hostile character, I don't really want to get too much into it as it'll get speculative - I don't pretend to have all the answers here and this is just a minor point

Oh this is cake. Here we have a character who is flat out telling us the Chaos Emeralds amplify the power, i.e. it makes the power stronger, and yet you're telling me all he's doing is explaining his plans and that what he's saying is that Chaos Control needs an emerald.

Actually no, you are misunderstanding me: he is not saying Emeralds are needed to use Chaos Control nor is he saying Emeralds are not needed, he is simply explaining the generic concept that more Emeralds means more power until reaching all 7 for full power - the power increases in correlation to the number of Emeralds. Basically there is nothing to be read into for or against either of our arguments.

Okay, so do you mind explaining to me how Shadow has been performing Chaos Control while Black Doom is at the center of the base with all the Chaos Emeralds in his possession? Shadow clearly shouldn't be capable of that unless he has a Chaos Emerald on his hand...and yet he's capable of performing Chaos Control despite that.

Emeralds were within the needed vicinity - don't know how large it is, Sonic Team never defined it, also don't know where Doom was (we'll both be getting speculative if we try to prove that) and I've also said gameplay is the weakest evidence anyway (see my original thread)

Sound more to me like you just don't want to admit you're wrong here. And to think I always thought I was the most stubborn person on these message boards.

Actually I've preferred debating you to Diogenes

And yet it's not the same as an actual Chaos Emerald, hence why they call it fake. Since you're mouthing on and on about evidence, care to explain to me how the hell they were capable of making a fake Emerald in the first place and the evidence to prove it?

That would only be speculative (Sonic Team didn't explain it) and I don't know what that would prove either way - however it was described as having the same wavelength and properties (wavelength is a term applied to energy like light and other types of radiation), nothing else has ever been described as having those

The fact that he's been capable of performing Chaos Control without them, which requires energy to do, isn't evidence enough? How about all that energy he released at the end of his story arc of Sonic 06 after taking off his rings? That didn't come from the Chaos Emeralds Mephilies had in his possession otherwise there was no point in taking those inhibitor rings off. That energy came straight out of Shadow's body, and as I said to Emerald Chaos, he cannot use any other energy source.

The vicinity argument again, though I prefer to avoid talking about the Spears, Blasts, whatever that is called since there is almost no official source that describes them (and in the Japanese Sonic X they're called "limiters", with Sonic X being closer to the Games than Archie because of Sonic Team's closer involvement, in my opinion, "limiters" is the better term until the Games give them a name)

You ever think that "contradiction" ever told you, "Gee, maybe he can do so without an emerald" instead of "it's a contradiction and they made a mess of things"? Because I honestly don't see how we're having an easier time making sense of all this while you continue to throw away examples that makes variations of what is already established as something that makes no sense.

I have actually considered it, the beginning of Sonic06 nearly made me join you guys until I saw Shadow say later in the same game "With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space"

You know what? Speaking of contradictions, you know how Sonic and Shadow performed a joint Chaos Control in SA2 to transport the ARK back into orbit? How the hell does performing another joint Chaos Control create a wormhole that acts as a time portal?

Doesn't seem related to the topic at hand, and since Sonic Team never explained it, I can only offer speculation on that too (my fan theory is that the SA2 joint warp was to do the same warp thus the 2 warps merged creating a stronger one, while the S06 warps were to do opposing warps that could not merge thus tearing a hole called a space-time rift)

And you are just blocking for the sake of acting like you have the stronger argument here, despite there being examples that flat out weaken it.

You see Shadow perform these abilities against what you claim, instead of seeing it as him being capable of doing so without an emerald, you take the harder route and call it a contradiction rather than accept it as him doing it on his own energy.

I see one good example that may either be a plothole or ambiguous and misunderstood - both happen in fiction, and like you said, the Sonic series is messy with its own continuity (I expect that soon people will claim Chaos can become Perfect Chaos with just one Emerald)

Edited February 24, 2012 by Darth InVaders

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Never said "no evidence" in regards to your entire argument - you have evidence in that sonic06 cutscene, but I've called it weak evidence. I have said you have no evidence to back up your speculation that you've created that Shadow can create Chaos Emerald power (thus a living Chaos Emerald) or that Shadow is a battery for storing Chaos Emerald power - vital points for your argument because Chaos Control's definition requires said power (basically, you made a conclusion from weak evidence, then you back it up with speculation)

The evidence is in the goddamned games when he is shown using the powers without the emeralds. This isn't speculation, it's something called "Show, Don't Tell" and is exactly what Sonic Team have concretely shown us in the games, be it the cutscenes and in the gameplay. You've been doing nothing but calling it weak in your attempts to strengthen your argument, and yet these "weak" examples are the very ones that contradict your argument, not mine. You keep dismissing them as if they mean very little, and yet you've given absolutely nothing but speculation yourself.

You haven't proven that certain characters are drawing the energy from Chaos Emeralds in someone else's possession, you've been making an argument akin to "Well since they can summon them towards them, they must be able to use their power at a distance" and the ridiculous part about this argument is that when they aren't being summoned by the character you still make the argument that they're still using them from a distance.

Black Doom drew power from the Emeralds as they orbited Shadow, lots of Super transformations show power being drawn from afar - the precedence for vicinity argument is pretty strong and stretches back pretty far - the original games said the Emeralds' power spread throughout South Island

Except they're not using their power from afar, they're summoning them from afar. You ever noticed that once the Emeralds actually get within inches of the character that they actually start using their power? It's an example of "Show, don't tell".

put some speculation in to note...

Okay, just stop.

Don't go talking about how we're basing things off of speculation and then turn around and speculate yourself. That's being flat out hypocritical and is discrediting your argument.

I don't understand what your point is... and since there is only one circumstance where they gravitate from a character toward a hostile character, I don't really want to get too much into it as it'll get speculative - I don't pretend to have all the answers here and this is just a minor point

I go by the simple idea of "Show, don't tell" for the answers; if it is shown to me, then I see it as it is. If I see a character performing Chaos Control without an Emerald on them or even near them, it's pretty hard to argue that they're not doing it on their own energy inside them. And when I see something, there's all sorts of theories that you can use to make sense of how it's being done until the creators put even more detail into it.

If I don't see it, telling me otherwise holds less water than it would had it been shown.

So put this together: I've seen Shadow peform Chaos Control and even use Chaos Attacks without an Emerald. You expect me to believe that he can't do so without an Emerald as a result of that? On top of that, I don't see characters like Metal Sonic using the energy from Super Sonic's emeralds to achieve Chaos Control, and yet I'm suppose to believe otherwise?

Actually no, you are misunderstanding me: he is not saying Emeralds are needed to use Chaos Control nor is he saying Emeralds are not needed, he is simply explaining the generic concept that more Emeralds means more power until reaching all 7 for full power - the power increases in correlation to the number of Emeralds. Basically there is nothing to be read into for or against either of our arguments.

And yet you're doing just that in favor of yours and against mine. Go figure.

Emeralds were within the needed vicinity - don't know how large it is, Sonic Team never defined it, also don't know where Doom was (we'll both be getting speculative if we try to prove that) and I've also said gameplay is the weakest evidence anyway (see my original thread)

"SHOW! Don't Tell!"

That needed vicinity happened to be all throughout the comet and a VERY large distance, and you know full well that Shadow isn't capable of using them from that far. On top of that, it isn't showing us that Shadow is using them from the vicinity at that distance, so that doesn't explain things either.

You keep shooting down our arguments as being speculative or weak, and yet you're doing just that yourself. You're being very hypocritical, and you don't even realize it.

Actually I've preferred debating you to Diogenes

Honestly, while I enjoy debating I'm really not enjoying this one, and that really says a lot here. And I'm in strong support of Diogenes points as he's stating them much simpler than I am.

Furthermore, I'm finding you to be very irritating going piece by piece on the most minute of details and yet there are other aspects of the argument that you're disregarding as "weak" evidence because it doesn't conform to what you've laid out to us. I'm just going to say this for future reference, "Show, don't tell". That is about the strongest evidence you can have regarding fiction. If you can't show, telling me something that I haven't seen just because a bunch of quotes say so mean absolutely nothing.

That would only be speculative (Sonic Team didn't explain it) and I don't know what that would prove either way - however it was described as having the same wavelength and properties (wavelength is a term applied to energy like light and other types of radiation), nothing else has ever been described as having those

It would prove the very thing I've been telling you this entire time. That these things can be manufactured and used artificially or in other ways separate from the real Emeralds themselves. If Tails is fully capable of making a complete fake emerald, and that fake emerald can induce real Chaos Control, it goes without saying that Chaos Control can be achieved in other ways. And they've shown us just that by having Shadow Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald, or using energy from his own body without the use of an emerald either.

The vicinity argument again, though I prefer to avoid talking about the Spears, Blasts, whatever that is called since there is almost no official source that describes them (and in the Japanese Sonic X they're called "limiters", with Sonic X being closer to the Games than Archie because of Sonic Team's closer involvement, in my opinion, "limiters" is the better term until the Games give them a name)

No dude. See that only goes to show that you're trying to dodge the point here because it goes against what you've been saying and supports what I've been saying.

That vicinity argument doesn't apply until you can flat out show me that he is using them from the vicinity. Again, "Show, Don't Tell" is applied here. If they didn't show him using it from a vicinity, then you can't claim he's using it from the vicinity. Conversely, they showed him using energy from his own body in that cutscene when it erupted straight out of him; are you going to tell me that he's not doing that on his own power within him?

I have actually considered it, the beginning of Sonic06 nearly made me join you guys until I saw Shadow say later in the same game "With a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space"

And yet the beginning of Sonic 06 showed he can do that before actually getting a Chaos Emerald to control time and space. Can you see what we've been saying this whole time? They showed us that he is capable of using Chaos Control without an emerald, so how the hell is there a problem when he makes a statement about using the Emeralds for that effect despite showing otherwise?

Sonic 06 may have some contradictions, but this isn't one of them.

Doesn't seem related to the topic at hand, and since Sonic Team never explained it, I can only offer speculation on that too (my fan theory is that the SA2 joint warp was to do the same warp thus the 2 warps merged creating a stronger one, while the S06 warps were to do opposing warps that could not merge thus tearing a hole called a space-time rift)

Funny enough, but that's exactly what Sonic Team explained via "Show, don't tell".

I see one good example that may either be a plothole or ambiguous and misunderstood - both happen in fiction, and like you said, the Sonic series is messy with its own continuity (I expect that soon people will claim Chaos can become Perfect Chaos with just one Emerald)

Dude, now you're just being ridiculous here. Everyone knows that Chaos cannot become Perfect Chaos with just one Emerald. It's been shown to us that it's impossible: He becomes Chaos 1 when he has one Chaos Emerald in possession, and then 2 with 2 emeralds, and so on. He needs seven to become Perfect and no less. SA1 made it very clear when they showed that to us, and you're just stating that just to belittle the other arguments here.

This series continuity is not that messy that it can't be made sense of, and it is not that messy to where these things can't be explained. You will find very few fans who will come to any other conclusion over Chaos Control than what we have. It may not be well connected, but that doesn't make it messy.

Edited February 24, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Indigo Rush]

Wanted to share some of my opinions about this topic, but CSS and Dio are doing it all for me.

Thanks guys.

As for the opposing party... man. Do you really care that much that Shadow needs a Chaos Emerald to teleport a few yards? I mean, jeez. the one ability that he's always had to let him stand apart from the likes of Sonic, and you want to take that away? Man... just, whatever.

Gosh.

[Alluusio]

Okay, I just had to play Sonic Battle again to check a few things. First of all, you were arguing about if Chaos Control allows teleportation or not, right? In Sonic Battle, Shadow has a move called S. Teleport, and the description for that move is; "Shadow's air action. He teleports using Chaos Control." If that doesn't clear things up, then I see no reason to carry this any further since you obviously can't admit when you're wrong.

You were also arguing if Chaos Control requires an emerald or not. In the same game Shadow gives his Chaos Emerald to Emerl so Emerl has all 7 of them. After that they still fight and in that fight Shadow uses attacks based on Chaos Control without having an emerald. Also, in SA2 when Knuckles stopped the Chaos Emeralds with the Master Emerald, Biolizard used Chaos Control without having any emeralds in his possession and even if he did have them in his possession, they wouldn't give off any energy since they were controlled by the Master Emerald.

[Kuzu]

Wanted to share some of my opinions about this topic, but CSS and Dio are doing it all for me.

Thanks guys.

As for the opposing party... man. Do you really care that much that Shadow needs a Chaos Emerald to teleport a few yards? I mean, jeez. the one ability that he's always had to let him stand apart from the likes of Sonic, and you want to take that away? Man... just, whatever.

Gosh.

More like he's trying to disprove something so fucking obvious simple because of some quotes.

[Zarakai]

Shadow is my favourite character and it really peeved me to see Sonic use Chaos Control in Adventure 2. My greatest argument I have seen over the years is "who's faster" in which my opinion is they are the same. People claim Sonic is faster because Shadow uses energy jet shoes and would be apparantly slower than Knuckles if he took them off. I'd love to see who came up with this theory, probs just some stupid kid but in all honestly I think that Shadow could run as fast as Sonic even without his jet shoes, I think they were added to his character just so he isn't a carbon copy of Sonic thus making him run differently to Sonic.

[Nerfuffle]

It is common knowledge that Shadow only straps rockets to his sneakers for the pure sex appeal.

The ring brace things also keep his hands and feet from falling off. The professor, while locked in a basement with a spell of the crazys, forgot to hive him ankles. This ruined Shadow’s aspirations to be figure skater.

[Diogenes]

Shadow is my favourite character and it really peeved me to see Sonic use Chaos Control in Adventure 2. My greatest argument I have seen over the years is "who's faster" in which my opinion is they are the same. People claim Sonic is faster because Shadow uses energy jet shoes and would be apparantly slower than Knuckles if he took them off. I'd love to see who came up with this theory, probs just some stupid kid but in all honestly I think that Shadow could run as fast as Sonic even without his jet shoes, I think they were added to his character just so he isn't a carbon copy of Sonic thus making him run differently to Sonic.

So it's a bad thing for Sonic to do what Shadow does, but Shadow should absolutely be able to do what Sonic does.