The Shadow Topic

[Zarakai]

Diogenes, you either misinterpreted what I said or either I didn't explain myself properly. What I was trying to say is that I like to think that whilst Sonic and Shadow are very similar, in terms of being able to run fast etc... I also like to think they have their own unique abilities and that abilities like Chaos Control should be Shadow's ability only because then him and Sonic would be exactly the same and would make Shadow a pointless character. Either way I can see where your coming from, I don't think Shadow should be able to do what Sonic does at all.

[Scar]

Goodness me!

What a clusterfuck of quote-dissections we have above these last few posts!

Anyway, why don't we simplify this whole issue. Much like practical applications of physics, assumptions need to be made. Here are a few:

• In order to perform Chaos Control (or any other attack/move) you don't need to say it out loud. Announcing the move that you are about to perform is not necessary. Even in anime, where the tradition originated, it isn't used that frequently, unless its in an "epic" moment and/or is needed to amplify the move's power.

• Nowhere in the series has any character ever used an anime-esque technique where they disappear and appear in and out of the frame to suggest extremely rapid movement. As such it can be assumed that, any move that visually relies upon a teleportation effect (typically a flash of light which sucks the user in and disappears), is Chaos Control.

• Shadow was created using some of the Emeralds power. He was brought to life using Black Doom's blood and created from some other unknown process. We can assume that the power required to create an "ultimate life-form" came from the Chaos Emeralds. It makes sense and fits the story fairly well.

• As a result of the above assumption, you could assume that Shadow is basically a very weak biological "chaos emerald" or something similar. This would enable him to produce a very tiny amount of energy, that is similar in behaviour (but not exact properties) to the proposed "chaos energy". Its basically what causes Shadow to never age.

• Finally we can then assume that the thing that he does in his opening cutscene in Sonic 06 and his own game, is an extremely short-range and weak version of chaos control. Unlike the real thing, he cannot transport objects or other people with him. Use of Chaos Emeralds enhances his range and potential for transporting other people/objects. More Chaos Emeralds, greater range (except for 7, which results in Super forms).

The reason I like this theory, is because its simple and it makes sense and it corroborates rather effectively with information we've received so far.

[Diogenes]

Diogenes, you either misinterpreted what I said or either I didn't explain myself properly. What I was trying to say is that I like to think that whilst Sonic and Shadow are very similar, in terms of being able to run fast etc... I also like to think they have their own unique abilities and that abilities like Chaos Control should be Shadow's ability only because then him and Sonic would be exactly the same and would make Shadow a pointless character. Either way I can see where your coming from, I don't think Shadow should be able to do what Sonic does at all.

[HeroMystic]

Never said "no evidence" in regards to your entire argument - you have evidence in that sonic06 cutscene, but I've called it weak evidence. I have said you have no evidence to back up your speculation that you've created that Shadow can create Chaos Emerald power (thus a living Chaos Emerald) or that Shadow is a battery for storing Chaos Emerald power - vital points for your argument because Chaos Control's definition requires said power (basically, you made a conclusion from weak evidence, then you back it up with speculation)

[Kuzu]

Diogenes, you either misinterpreted what I said or either I didn't explain myself properly. What I was trying to say is that I like to think that whilst Sonic and Shadow are very similar, in terms of being able to run fast etc... I also like to think they have their own unique abilities and that abilities like Chaos Control should be Shadow's ability only because then him and Sonic would be exactly the same and would make Shadow a pointless character. Either way I can see where your coming from, I don't think Shadow should be able to do what Sonic does at all.

...But, Sonic really doesn't have anything over Shadow. Shadow can do everything Sonic can do, and then some.

[HeroMystic]

...But, Sonic really doesn't have anything over Shadow. Shadow can do everything Sonic can do, and then some.

[MegaMan_EXE]

Ahh, Shadow. He was once a character of great value. He had a good back story and was the perfect rival for our blue hedgehog fellow.

After Adventure 2, ans wanted him again. So, we got it. Shadow's return wasn't as good as we thought it would be, but it was cool to see him take down Sonic again (or FAIL!) When he got his own game, it ruined him. Guns, and swearing was a bad way to go. Also, he had many different ways he could end his game. After his own game and the terror known as Sonic 06, he started to get better, and had a pretty good role in Black Knight. He go PWNED in Generations, and is slowly recovering. Does Shadow have his faults? Yes, but he can be fun, at times.

[K.T.E.]

SHADOW IS DEAD ; HE DIED IN SA2 AND NEVER CAME BACK. NOW LET'S FORGET ALL OUR TROUBLES WITH A BIG BOWL OF STRAWBERRY ICE CREAM!

Anyway, yeah, Shadow can do pretty much all that Sonic can do. I agree, though, with Marco's point that Sonic is more adaptable. That's why he's survived through these years, whereas unless Shadow is wielding a gun or brooding Maria's death, he looks a bit ridiculous.

[Kuzu]

It's not a terribly new concept. Before Sonic Adventure, Sonic being the fastest thing alive wasn't the thing that made him stand out from the rest Tails and Knuckles could run as fast as Sonic, but they could also fly, and Knuckles could climb walls while Tails could swim.

What made him different from the others was actually his utilization of items: Flame shield, Aqua Shield, Electric Shield were items that he could manipulate while other characters could not. SA1 to Heroes dropped that concept in favor of identifying everyone by tropes, and then his Item utility came back. SatSR allowed Sonic to show off his abilities with the use of foreign objects, to the point where he got a totally new transformation, and SatBK showed that Sonic is the best swordsman. Sonic 06 allowed the broken gems to be used, and Sonic Colors had him using Wisps. I guess I should note Sonic Riders too. Even though Sonic can clearly run faster than Jet on a hoverboard, he still beat him at his own game.

If we're talking barebones, yeah, Sonic is actually a pretty lackluster character compared to Shadow, but Sonic has proven to be far more flexible to his environment than any character thus far.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wasn't implying that he's weaker than Shadow just that Zaraki's point about them having different abilities makes no sense.

[Zarakai]

I was basically trying to make a point to the people over the years who have said that shadow is only as fast as sonic because he has jet shoes, and that without them he wouldn't be fast, so I was saying that I think he would be as fast if he had the same footwear as sonic but they gave him jet shoes to make him different. Why do people need to make jibes all the time, I was just stating my opinion, its because of people like you that I hardly join or even post on forums any more.

[Diogenes]

I think you're a bit oversensitive, if you're getting worked up over this. I'm just pointing out that you're framing Sonic as being the lesser party, considering you didn't like Sonic copying Shadow's move, but not only are you fine with Shadow copying Sonic's speed, you insist that Shadow's speed be exactly as legitimate as Sonic's over the possibility that Shadow is naturally slower but uses his rocket shoes. It smells like unfair bias to me; do you have an explanation as to why it isn't?

[Zarakai]

Yeah now that I think about it maybe your right about the oversensitive thing Diogenes, I get told that a lot. It wasn't meant to be unfair bias, maybe I just made it sound like that. I didn't dislike dislike Sonic using Shadow's Chaos Control I just felt that when he used it in SA2 he took away some of Shadow's uniqueness.

[Diogenes]

Yeah, but doesn't Shadow being able to run as fast as Sonic take away some of Sonic's uniqueness? What abilities does Sonic have that Shadow doesn't?

[Sega DogTagz]

Yeah, but doesn't Shadow being able to run as fast as Sonic take away some of Sonic's uniqueness? What abilities does Sonic have that Shadow doesn't?

I've always looked at Sonic's and Shadow's differences as a personality issue. The two clash pretty hard in that territory. But if you are really interested in difference in abilities, and you don't want to make the jump to the comic half of this equation (can't go mixing continuities), then there are a few things Sonic can still hang his hat on.

- Sonic can Bounce. Been a while, but I don't recall Shadow being able to do that in SA2.

- Stomp and Quickstep too.... Sonic has Shadow beat in areal and ground based mobility moves.

- Sonic is highly adaptable - Chaos Control with a fake emerald (even Shadow was surprised by that one)

- Sonic can diffuse Super forms onto other characters.

- Just throwing this out there..... I'm not entirely sure..... but have we ever seen Shadow run on water?

[Diogenes]

- Sonic can Bounce. Been a while, but I don't recall Shadow being able to do that in SA2.

- Stomp and Quickstep too.... Sonic has Shadow beat in areal and ground based mobility moves.

I don't really count moves like this, since they aren't really things Shadow can't do, just ones that he hasn't. Shadow has basically the same speed, agility, and spinning ability as Sonic, and since these are the abilities/traits underlying those moves, I can't think of any reason Shadow wouldn't be able to do them if he wanted to.

- Sonic is highly adaptable - Chaos Control with a fake emerald (even Shadow was surprised by that one)

Which is a nice trait, but it's not really a quantifiable ability. And it's not as if Shadow had any trouble handling the various weapons and vehicles he used in ShtH and '06.

- Sonic can diffuse Super forms onto other characters.

Useful, but it doesn't really make Sonic any better.

- Just throwing this out there..... I'm not entirely sure..... but have we ever seen Shadow run on water?

Not to my recollection, but considering he has rocket shoes that allow him to hover, I can't imagine him not being able to.

[Scar]

Well, seeing as Shadow is essentially a walking hovercraft, I would imagine his handling wouldn't be as good as Sonic. Not really something Sonic is better at, rather something Shadow is worse at as a result of his shoes. It hasn't been shown, but from a gameplay perspective it certainly would prove as a decent seperation factor.

[Pawn]

Sonic has to boost to get across water these days doesn't he? Seeing as Shadow flies above ground when he boosts, I can't see it being a problem for him to either.

[Sega DogTagz]

I don't really count moves like this, since they aren't really things Shadow can't do, just ones that he hasn't. Shadow has basically the same speed, agility, and spinning ability as Sonic, and since these are the abilities/traits underlying those moves, I can't think of any reason Shadow wouldn't be able to do them if he wanted to.

You might not weigh them equally, but you shouldn’t discount them as if they were nothing. If that were the case, then this arguments line of thought would have no end. Under this logic, there would be very few if any moves unique to either character. Shadow would gain anything that has to do with speed and Sonic would gain anything that had to do with Chaos powers. If your just going to grant Shadow a pass on appearances, then I could just go out on a similar limb and do the same for Sonic. Aerokinesis anyone?

Besides, some of these moves aren’t exactly compatible with Shadow in the first place. I imagine the quick-step would require a plant foot… which is not something I’m so sure Shadow would be able to do at full speed. His feet don’t touch the ground. The Stomp is simple enough, but the bounce is kind of anatomy busting. I wouldn’t grant that kind ability to any living thing without proof first.

Which is a nice trait, but it's not really a quantifiable ability. And it's not as if Shadow had any trouble handling the various weapons and vehicles he used in ShtH and '06.

Useful, but it doesn't really make Sonic any better.

Shadow drives tanks that were designed to be driven. Sonic pulls chaos control out of a token device build as a shoddy guise to an unlimited power source.

Uhh….. yeah. I think Sonic got a bit more mileage out of his adaptability. I’m a ton more impressed by the guy who got something out of nothing rather than the guy who can read an instruction manual. Its plenty quantifiable too. Plain and simple, Sonic can get more with less.

Useful, but it doesn't really make Sonic any better.

But it does give us a pretty good idea of what Super Sonic is capable of. In SA2, Super Shadow overtaxed himself and “died”. In Heroes and 06, Sonic purged enough Chaos energy to boot two other characters to god-hood and still had enough juice to blow away the final boss.

Super Sonic may not be hindered by a limit. (or his limit is far beyond Super Shadows). Unlimited Power is a nasty ability.

Not to my recollection, but considering he has rocket shoes that allow him to hover, I can't imagine him not being able to.

Sonic has to boost to get across water these days doesn't he? Seeing as Shadow flies above ground when he boosts, I can't see it being a problem for him to either.

Birds can fly over water too, but that doesn’t grant them the ability to run across it. We shouldn’t be in the business of using Shadow’s hovering as a knock against Sonic. At the moment, Sonic can run across water and Shadow can’t. If you’re looking for things that Sonic can do that Shadow lacks…. I think that should count as one of them.

Water and Jet boots probably don’t mix to well, and if he hovers too high, he’s basically flying. Either way, not that Shadow couldn’t navigate a body of water, but he certainly lacks the ability to run the 40 across a lake.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Sega DogTagz

[Pawn]

Birds can fly over water too, but that doesn’t grant them the ability to run across it. We shouldn’t be in the business of using Shadow’s hovering as a knock against Sonic. At the moment, Sonic can run across water and Shadow can’t.

While Shadow can hover across water and Sonic can't. An inability to run across water doesn't mean much if he has other ways of traversing it. Whether it's his shoes helping him in a situation or not, he's never going to take them off, so how much they help him doesn't matter.

[Sega DogTagz]

While Shadow can hover across water and Sonic can't. An inability to run across water doesn't mean much if he has other ways of traversing it. Whether it's his shoes helping him in a situation or not, he's never going to take them off, so how much they help him doesn't matter.

The point of this discussion isn't to show that Shadow can't accomplish similar feats with different means, just that he is playing with a different deck of cards to do so. I took on the task of identifying area's where Shadow can't measure up. Water running is one of those areas.

Shadow can fly over water and Sonic can run. That right there is two different abilities. One that only Sonic can do and one that only Shadow is capable of. That's all I'm getting at here.

[Kuzu]

Didn't Generations kind of establish that both of them are basically equals? They both had boost, and outside of powering up, virtually had the same abilities, so I don't think it really matters who has more abilities if both of them can still match each other regardless.

[Pawn]

Shadow can fly over water and Sonic can run. That right there is two different abilities. One that only Sonic can do and one that only Shadow is capable of. That's all I'm getting at here.

I was under the impression that the issue was Shadow possessing more or less everything Sonic has and more. What abilities does Sonic have that measure up to Shadow's arsenal of chaos powers?

For the record I imagine that Sonic can do more with his speed than Shadow. The best way I can see it (not that I consider this fact by any means) is that they both have more or less equal potential to perform crazy feats with their speed and chaos-based powers, but that each favours one over the other. The problem is we haven't seen any significant limitations in Shadow's speed that would suggest this.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Lungo

[Sega DogTagz]

I was under the impression that the issue was Shadow possessing more or less everything Sonic has and more. What abilities does Sonic have that measure up to Shadow's arsenal of chaos powers?

Measure up might not be the right word. Sonic crippled Shadow in generations without the need for any special powers.

But, if your going for an apples to oranges showdown of abilities, Shadow does lack the horde of mythical ability granting artifacts that Sonic has accumulated over the years. Sonic can match moves like chaos boost with his own batch of tricks in the form of speed/time break, magic hands, Werehog transformation or any of the other insane moves that he's picked up over the years.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Sega DogTagz

[Kuzu]

I was under the impression that the issue was Shadow possessing more or less everything Sonic has and more. What abilities does Sonic have that measure up to Shadow's arsenal of chaos powers?

For the record I imagine that Sonic can do more with his speed than Shadow. The best way I can see it (not that I consider this fact by any means) is that they both have more or less equal potential to perform crazy feats with their speed and chaos-based powers, but that each favours one over the other. The problem is we haven't seen any significant limitations in Shadow's speed that would suggest this.

Well Shadow really only has three chaos powers, Chaos Control isn't that powerful without an emerald, and Sonic use it as well. Chaos Spear seems like something Sonic can easily dodge or maneuver around, and Chaos Blast only looks like it can be used one time. Outside of that, they're basically even.

[Pawn]

Measure up might not be the right word. Sonic crippled Shadow in generations without the need for any special powers.

Well Shadow really only has three chaos powers, Chaos Control isn't that powerful without an emerald, and Sonic use it as well. Chaos Spear seems like something Sonic can easily dodge or maneuver around, and Chaos Blast only looks like it can be used one time. Outside of that, they're basically even.

I know that these extras give him little advantage in a fight against Sonic, but they do make him more unique. My posts stemmed from Diogenes' question asking what abilities are unique to Sonic, and the fact that it is a difficult question to answer.

Come to think of it, and slightly related: Silver has the ability to teleport and use projectile attacks as of Generations. Chaos Spear may look different but Silver can essentially do what Shadow can do minus what Sonic can do... in addition to what else he can do. =p

But, if your going for an apples to oranges showdown of abilities, Shadow does lack the horde of mythical ability granting artifacts that Sonic has accumulated over the years. Sonic can match moves like chaos boost with his own batch of tricks in the form of speed/time break, magic hands, Werehog transformation or any of the other insane moves that he's picked up over the years.

None of these more unusual moves have really stayed consistently with Sonic, while at the very least Chaos Control and Chaos Spear appear to be mainstays for Shadow. Chaos Blast I'm not so sure about, but I know I don't care much for it.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Lungo