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Briraka

So... What's so Bad About the Series' Current Direction?

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YES, IT IS!!

 

 

If somebody killed my family and made my life a living hell, do you really think I would just act so casual about it? No, I would want fucking blood.

 

You're acting as if Sonic should not be allowed to lose his cool once in a while, weren't you the one arguing that he should show more emotion? I'd imagine that you would agree with the idea that Sonic would be more than a little upset at people who have caused him so much pain.

I'm not saying he shouldn't show more emotion, I'm saying that not showing the maximum amount of emotion in this situation isn't a terrible thing.

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It tried to have have more of a story then done previously, but that doesn't mean it tried or was meant to be some grand epic adventure tale for the ages, it kinda sounds like you just set your expectations to high or was expecting a completely different kind of story to me.

No, I pointed out why I felt that way, none of which had anything to do with my expectations. Points that you conveniently ignored by only quoting one part of my post.

 

 

 

Except when Sonic fully acknowledges that Tails was kidnapped because of his recklessness, does that not count?

acknowledging a flaw and actually learning from it are two completely different things.

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I like how when some people here just want some background info, some depth, or some sense of things actually happening with a sort of payoff from either the objective and/or character perspective, its interpreted as if we want a story as convoluted and massive as Lord of the Rings.

 

Hyperboles. Hyperboles everywhere.

 

Except he JUST said he was expecting something akin to an "epic" so….

 

 

 

acknowledging a flaw and actually learning from it are two completely different things.

 

And what reason do we have to believe that Sonic didn't learn from it? Hell, id bring that up if Sonic was just going punch the Zeti as soon as he saw him again like you him wanted to.

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I'm not saying he shouldn't show more emotion, I'm saying that not showing the maximum amount of emotion in this situation isn't a terrible thing.

 

His planet died, his friends are dead too (even Tails is figured assumedly dead or under the Zeti's bidding), his greatest adversary even died unjustly. If you were in Sonic's shoes, with his capabilities, why would you not show the maximum amount of emotion? Its not like there's anything else for him to lose, after all.

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I'm not saying he shouldn't show more emotion, I'm saying that not showing the maximum amount of emotion in this situation isn't a terrible thing.

 

Except in the context of what was going on, it doesn't really sell the gravity of the conflict. The Deadly Six at that point in the story were murderous sociopaths, and yet they're treated as casually as a sneeze. That doesn't do a good job at making your villains seem threatening. 

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So if I understand you correctly, Tails has always been a perfect Mary Sue technogod. Could you explain why this is a good thing, especially since nowadays it's pretty much the entirety of his character?

You don't understand me correctly.

Tails is a kid genius and an expert mechanic. These are well established traits, and overall fairly reasonable ones, given the kinds of powers other characters have. And we should not be surprised when he's able to use those abilities with competence. e: and especially not in this case, when he's done far greater things before.

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And what reason do we have to believe that Sonic didn't leane from it? Hell, id bring that up if Sonic was just going punch the Zeti as soon as he saw him again like you him wanted to.

 

Because another scenario where Sonic could show he learned never takes place. He just says, "this is all my fault" and that's it, he doesn't really do anything to correct his mistake because Tails is the one who solves everything, and the ultimate lesson Sonic learns is that he should just leave everything to him.

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You don't understand me correctly.

Tails is a kid genius and an expert mechanic. These are well established traits, and overall fairly reasonable ones, given the kinds of powers other characters have. And we should not be surprised when he's able to use those abilities with competence. e: and especially not in this case, when he's done far greater things before.

 

But its messed up whenever it's also treated as a sort of resolution, as if there's no room for tension, for error or mistakes. If anything, the case with both the emerald in SA2 and the plane in SA1 should be examples of this; and even outside of it actually creating a situation where it goes wrong, it makes it seem like Tails just wouldn't have any problems with anything ever.

 

It's like writing Sonic to just walk up to any robot, any enemy, any obstacle or objective, and just be done without any struggle because he's the hero and he's known for busting up robots and saving the day. Then again.. that doesn't sound like something they wouldn't do, so...

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Because another scenario where Sonic could show he learned never takes place. He just says, "this is all my fault" and that's it, he doesn't really do anything to correct his mistake because Tails is the one who solves everything, and the ultimate lesson Sonic learns is that he should just leave everything to him.

 

You could interpret that final D6 confrontation as just that, Sonic not going gung-ho and instead gong in with a calm head about things.

And by "everything" you mean just tech-related shenanigans, because ultimately Sonic is still the one who has to get the job done in defeating the evil power hungry villains, he solves THAT problem while Tails deals with another one, which is pretty fair.

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Y'know it seems kind of contradictory to say you want Sonic raging and punching dudes while at the same time saying he needs to show how he's learned to not rush into things.

 

But as I said, in that situation, what does he have to lose? Himself? Considering Sonic's portrayals in previous games, he doesn't find his own safety to be as high of a priority as what he values, and it seems like he'd certainly risk to sacrifice himself for it.

 

But instead he snarks them off as if this is the same old comedy roast it's been since the beginning of the game, just with a bit of tiresomeness with them this time.. that is at least until Tails appears in the picture.

 

Still, I expected more from Sonic than that. Much more.

You could interpret that final D6 confrontation as just that, Sonic not going gung-ho and instead gong in with a calm head about things.

And by "everything" you mean just tech-related shenanigans, because ultimately Sonic is still the one who has to get the job done in defeating the evil power hungry villains, he solves THAT problem while Tails deals with another one, which is pretty fair.

 

And that just limits their characters to one thing or another, simplifying Tails as the brains with Sonic as the brawn. That's mondo lame, especially since I remember the good old days when Sonic would fly the Tornado and Tails actually got in on the action, instead of shoving them into archetypes too specific to allow legroom.

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You could interpret that final D6 confrontation as just that, Sonic not going gung-ho and instead gong in with a calm head about things. And by "everything" you mean just tech-related shenanigans, because ultimately Sonic is still the one who has to get the job done in defeating the evil power hungry villains, he solves THAT problem while Tails deals with another one, which is pretty fair.

Yea, you could interpret it that way, but in that case you could also interpret the way I said and that the entire thing is just treated too casually. If I did interpret it the way you said, then that creates an entirely new problem because now, its too vague. When does Sonic acknowledge that he shouldn't just rush in within the scene? What is the ultimate pay off of him not doing so? 

 

And to tackle the second point, considering Sonic and Tails's goal was to shut down the machine, and that Tails was the one to do it. Yea, he did kinda solve the plot. Sonic just kinda beat the Deadly Six, which is cool I guess, but they're dealt with so anticlimactically I would barely count it.

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You don't understand me correctly.

Tails is a kid genius and an expert mechanic. These are well established traits, and overall fairly reasonable ones, given the kinds of powers other characters have. And we should not be surprised when he's able to use those abilities with competence. e: and especially not in this case, when he's done far greater things before.

But in recent games, engineering is literally all he ever does! It's reached the point where I honestly want Sega to retcon Tails' skill with machines from "Eggman-level genius" to "above average".

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Y'know it seems kind of contradictory to say you want Sonic raging and punching dudes while at the same time saying he needs to show how he's learned to not rush into things.

 

You act like the two are mutually exclusive, in any case; wouldn't Sonic learning to restrain himself after raging out make a hell of a lot more sense in a narrative perspective, ya know, as opposed to just downplaying both in general.

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Because another scenario where Sonic could show he learned never takes place. He just says, "this is all my fault" and that's it, he doesn't really do anything to correct his mistake because Tails is the one who solves everything, and the ultimate lesson Sonic learns is that he should just leave everything to him.

 

"All my friends are dead... Even my greatest foe has met with an untimely fate..."

 

During the next level:

"Alright!" "Yeah!"

 

If I felt bad for Sonic before, I certainly don't now. These in game quotes make me crack up, he says "Alright" like Johnny Bravo for christs sake.

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Yea, you could interpret it that way, but in that case you could also interpret the way I said and that the entire thing is just treated too casually. If I did interpret it the way you said, then that creates an entirely new problem because now, its too vague. When does Sonic acknowledge that he shouldn't just rush in within the scene? What is the ultimate pay off of him not doing so? 

 

And to tackle the second point, considering Sonic and Tails's goal was to shut down the machine, and that Tails was the one to do it. Yea, he did kinda solve the plot. Sonic just kinda beat the Deadly Six, which is cool I guess, but they're dealt with so anticlimactically I would barely count it.

 

Sonic acknowledges that he shouldn't rush into it by….not rushing into it…. The entire plot of the game showed Sonic's recklessness as being a terrible catalyst that resulted in his position now. Why would he be of the mindset they doing it AGAIN would get anything good done?

 

And you barely count Sonic beating the villains who almost killed their entire world and their friends because it was somewhat lacking in tension? it's not like that discredited what they did to his world.. And it's not like Tails stopping the machine would save the world, because if he did that and Sonic didn't do anything, then the D6 or Eggman could simply turn it back on/fix it.

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But its messed up whenever it's also treated as a sort of resolution, as if there's no room for tension, for error or mistakes. If anything, the case with both the emerald in SA2 and the plane in SA1 should be examples of this; and even outside of it actually creating a situation where it goes wrong, it makes it seem like Tails just wouldn't have any problems with anything ever.

 

It's like writing Sonic to just walk up to any robot, any enemy, any obstacle or objective, and just be done without any struggle because he's the hero and he's known for busting up robots and saving the day. Then again.. that doesn't sound like something they wouldn't do, so...

I don't think we needed an intense hacking scene to show Tails reprogramming stuff. I mean, the tension came from, first, Tails being kidnapped, and second, Eggman being a double crossing dick. Once those matters are taken care of, setting things right is just kind of perfunctory, inherently.

And simply being good with machines doesn't mean Tails is invincible. He's good with machines, and he was able to make use of that when the opportunity presented itself. But it's not like being a big brainy nerd prevented him from almost being shot in Desert Ruins, or let him just muscle his way out of the Six's lair.

 

But as I said, in that situation, what does he have to lose? Himself?

Everything. Any chance at saving Tails, any chance at saving Amy, Knuckles, and the rest of planet Earth. I'm not saying there's no reason for someone to get angry and desperate in that sort of situation, but it's not the only way someone can approach it, and given what Sonic's arc is supposed to be it kinda makes more sense for him to not do that.

And that just limits their characters to one thing or another, simplifying Tails as the brains with Sonic as the brawn. That's mondo lame, especially since I remember the good old days when Sonic would fly the Tornado and Tails actually got in on the action.

Well we're obviously not going to get rounded characters showing off multiple competences if we get mad whenever a character shows off a particular competence. The solution isn't to stop Tails doing machine things, it's to have him do other things as well.

You act like the two are mutually exclusive,

...they kind of are?

in any case; wouldn't Sonic learning to restrain himself after raging out make a hell of a lot more sense in a narrative perspective, ya know, as opposed to just downplaying both in general.

I get the feeling people would just complain about him being stupid more because of it.

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Sonic acknowledges that he shouldn't rush into it by….not rushing into it…. The entire plot of the game showed Sonic's recklessness as being a terrible catalyst that resulted in his position now. Why would he be of the mindset they doing it AGAIN would get anything good done?

 

You don't see or even get the memo that Sonic learned that though. The entire scene when he sees the Deadly Six after the planet gets sucked away doesn't even imply that.

 

In fact, that's not even the point of the argument that was made about that scene; the point being made was that Sonic just didn't seem like he gave a shit about his friends or his world all too much and acted more like he just wanted to get these mooks over with already. It seems so cheap for him to feel bad about his friends/planet being wiped away from existence but doesn't express it at all in what seems to be seconds later.

 

If he was to learn to not react so hastily, a good way for the story to tell that would've been for him to initially lunge at them in anger but then stop himself, remembering his mistakes. But none of that, nooooneee offff thaaattt is even remotely implied.

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Sonic acknowledges that he shouldn't rush into it by….not rushing into it…. The entire plot of the game showed Sonic's recklessness as being a terrible catalyst that resulted in his position now. Why would he be of the mindset they doing it AGAIN would get anything good done?

 

And you barely count Sonic beating the villains who almost killed their entire world and their friends because it was somewhat lacking in tension? it's not like that discredited what they did to his world.. And it's not like Tails stopping the machine would save the world, because if he did that and Sonic didn't do anything, then the D6 or Eggman could simply turn it back on/fix it.

 

Except the recklessness in this case would be more than justified, because at that point Sonic has, at least to him, lost everything. Before Tails was found out to be alright, Sonic has no reason to not just lose his shit because there are no consequences right? Well if he found out there was a chance that he can save everyone, THEN it would it make sense to not rush into things. Its a matter of context really, there are ways you can play out certain scenes and that is ultimately how the audience will view them.

 

YOU may be able to say Sonic "learned" something, but without the proper context. The audience is free to interpret it in any which way, which is why I feel its a problem when an entire conflict is downplayed and not given the focus it needs for anything to be concrete.

 

 

And let me try to understand this perfectly so we're not lost; its fine to downplay Sonic not getting more angry at people responsible for giving him grief, but its not fine to downplay when said people are dealt with in an anticlimactic matter?

 

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If he was to learn to not react so hastily, a good way for the story to tell that would've been for him to initially lunge at them in anger but then stop himself, remembering his mistakes. But none of that, nooooneee offff thaaattt is even remotely implied.

That sounds like it'd be kind of hokey. Too blunt a way to address it...it just kinda beats you over the head with it.

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That sounds like it'd be kind of hokey. Too blunt a way to address it...it just kinda beats you over the head with it.

 

Okay so one of the Zeti (probably Zavok) would stop him and tell him not to be hasty and reminds him of what other mistakes he's made?

 

Whatever. My point wasn't really that either. My point is that none of the idea of him holding back was even slightly implied in any way. And due to how fast and carelessly the game sifts through plot points, there's no reason to believe that's what was implied either.

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But in recent games, engineering is literally all he ever does! It's reached the point where I honestly want Sega to retcon Tails' skill with machines from "Eggman-level genius" to "above average".

You can't really say that its ALL he does because Sonic Colors and Sonic Lost World are the only times that we ever see him do any of it legit, what else would he do really?  In Unleashed all he does is fly Sonic from location to location and in Generations he did nothing but provide someone for Sonic to talk to, not even really figuring out what at all happened to them.

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Except the recklessness in this case would be more than justified, because at that point Sonic has, at least to him, lost everything. Before Tails was found out to be alright, Sonic has no reason to not just lose his shit because there are no consequences right? Well if he found out there was a chance that he can save everyone, THEN it would it make sense to not rush into things.

But if he rushed into things, he may not have found out that there was a way to save everyone.

Things looked bad at that point, yeah, but it's not as if Sonic had seen his friends' corpses. Tails was kidnapped, but he didn't know if he was beyond help. Amy was obviously in danger the last time he talked to her, but he lost contact and doesn't know what's up with everyone back on Earth. He hadn't yet given up hope, so he didn't just throw himself into the meat grinder and be done with it.

Its probably not that stupid if people are arguing that it is a good idea.

People suggest bad ideas for things all the time, without recognizing that they're bad because they're riding the high of having come up with it.

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