So... What's so Bad About the Series' Current Direction?

[Soniman]

Except the recklessness in this case would be more than justified, because at that point Sonic has, at least to him, lost everything. Before Tails was found out to be alright, Sonic has no reason to not just lose his shit because there are no consequences right? Well if he found out there was a chance that he can save everyone, THEN it would it make sense to not rush into things. Its a matter of context really, there are ways you can play out certain scenes and that is ultimately how the audience will view them.

 

YOU may be able to say Sonic "learned" something, but without the proper context. The audience is free to interpret it in any which way, which is why I feel its a problem when an entire conflict is downplayed and not given the focus it needs for anything to be concrete.

 

Dio already said this, but Tails WAS NOT dead and Sonic could have very well believe in the idea that he's still alive. Sonic's entire mantra is about never losing hope or giving into despair, so I just don't see how being suicidally reckless would be seen as a good thing for him.

 

And let me try to understand this perfectly so we're not lost; its fine to downplay Sonic not getting more angry at people responsible for giving him grief, but its not fine to downplay when said people are dealt with in an anticlimactic matter?

Them getting dealt with anticlimactically doesn't immediately invalidate all that they DID, which was a lot of terrible shit. 

[Kuzu]

But if he rushed into things, he may not have found out that there was a way to save everyone.

Things looked bad at that point, yeah, but it's not as if Sonic had seen his friends' corpses. Tails was kidnapped, but he didn't know if he was beyond help. Amy was obviously in danger the last time he talked to her, but he lost contact and doesn't know what's up with everyone back on Earth. He hadn't yet given up hope, so he didn't just throw himself into the meat grinder and be done with it.

And that would have sold the drama a lot more don't ya think, making the audience question if there was a way for Sonic to save the day.

And even if the story acknowledged everything you pointed out(Which it didn't), there's still the problem of Sonic barely reacting beyond mild annoyance at the source of all of his problems. Which is the entire point of my argument in the first place.

People suggest bad ideas for things all the time, without recognizing that they're bad because they're riding the high of having come up with it.

Then let the people decide if an idea is good or not instead of just copping out because of being afraid a few people will disagree with you. Don't know what any of this has to do with the current discussion.

[JAiRO]

Sonic acknowledges that he shouldn't rush into it by….not rushing into it…. 

 

I don't think the writing is quite this deep. He doesn't rush into because his character is static, he doesn't change at all except for the occasional "Shit. Well, he's dead." moment of despair, or the "Darn you, fat guy" moments of anger. I think honestly the issue here is that Sonic doesn't change over the course of the story, and for whatever reason the writers (Scratch that, I'm sure this was decided higher up the ladder than Mr. Pontac.) chose to keep him the same as he was the last two games. He must become a dynamic character if the writing keeps demanding it.

[Kuzu]

Dio already said this, but Tails WAS NOT dead and Sonic could have very well believe in the idea that he's still alive. Sonic's entire mantra is about never losing hope or giving into despair, so I just don't see how being suicidally reckless would be seen as a good thing for him.

Tails was kidnapped, and as far as Sonic knew, a mindless drone of theirs. And going by your second point, Sonic should have never felt sad about Amy & Knuckles being gone, and he should never felt sad that Tails was kidnapped in the first place, because he never loses hope or gives into despair right? But that's exactly what he did in those scenes, so why was it ok in those scenes, but not ok when it would have been appropriate?

 

 

 

Them getting dealt with anticlimactically doesn't immediately invalidate all that they DID, which was a lot of terrible shit.

No, but it makes them seem a lot less important than they actually were.

In any case, I'm getting bored of this. If neither you or Dio can't understand why the story downplaying its conflict, and not conveying proper emotions is a problem, then I got really nothing more to say. Especially since both of you praise the parts of the story that I'm arguing for, i.e. Sonic showing emotion, but whatever. I'm going to play a game now.

[azoo]

Tapping out, since this is just becoming yet another infinite loop of arguments from people with their minds set on what they believe, and I'm one of them. Just on one of many, many, many, many sides.

 

I'm not very happy with how the Sonic Team has handled decisions on designing games as well as telling stories. They end up making things that are anywhere from pretty awful to pretty good, but I genuinely miss when the games were all around really efforted and high quality fun.

 

But I know other people have their different opinions on what makes Sonic good and all that (which is what starts these Odysseus-length arguments) and Sonic has been such an inconsistent series that it's all over the flipping place. So I get defensive about what things I enjoyed from the series since it seems for as many people that like those qualities, there are just as many others that dislike/hate them. And since Sega is such a wild card I may or may not ever see the charm I found in the series ever again anyways.

 

But since I got other things to do and I'm pretty tired of this at this point (no points I'm making are really getting through), I'm clocking out.

[Soniman]

Tails was kidnapped, and as far as Sonic knew, a mindless drone of theirs. And going by your second point, Sonic should have never felt sad about Amy & Knuckles being gone, and he should never felt sad that Tails was kidnapped in the first place, because he never loses hope or gives into despair right? But that's exactly what he did in those scenes, so why was it ok in those scenes, but not ok when it would have been appropriate?

 

 

You seem to confuse determination and resolve with "I don't care about anyone and show no emotions" which are two completely different things.

 

 

 

No, but it makes them seem a lot less important than they actually were.

Yes, thats fair.

 

 

 

In any case, I'm getting bored of this. If neither you or Dio can't understand why the story downplaying its conflict, and not conveying proper emotions is a problem, then I got really nothing more to say. Especially since both of you praise the parts of the story that I'm arguing for, i.e. Sonic showing emotion, but whatever. I'm going to play a game now.

 

It's almost as if I don't exactly AGREE with what you're criticizing. But no it can't be that, I just don't "understand" apparently. Whatever, I'm done here.

[Lady Soniko]

The game is about a Lost World and the Zeti.

 

The game ends with Eggman being the main villain all along, and Amy/Knuckles and the world dying was just collateral damage that Eggman doesn't care for, he even says "At least there will be enough left to rule and build my utopia!"

 

Making the Zeti some hash in hindrance to keep Sonic busy like mere upgraded cronies, they don't even get a proper send off and the only hint we get that they survive, is Eggman cursing Sonic and claiming he'll control the Zeti again when he gets another conch shell.

[Diogenes]

Tails was kidnapped, and as far as Sonic knew, a mindless drone of theirs. And going by your second point, Sonic should have never felt sad about Amy & Knuckles being gone, and he should never felt sad that Tails was kidnapped in the first place, because he never loses hope or gives into despair right? But that's exactly what he did in those scenes, so why was it ok in those scenes, but not ok when it would have been appropriate?

There are levels, dude, people don't switch from boundless optimism to utter hopelessness at the drop of a hat...

Look, I'm not saying the story doesn't have problems. But I feel like people aren't giving the game a fair shake, that they're exaggerating some problems, inventing others, and ignoring when it does things right. I would be more willing to jump on its flaws if it didn't seem like discussions inevitably end up trashing it on their own.

The game is about a Lost World and the Zeti.

Not really. They are involved, but they are not what the game is "about".

[Kuzu]

It's almost as if I don't exactly AGREE with what you're criticizing. But no it can't be that, I just don't "understand" apparently. Whatever, I'm done here.

Hence why I said its pointless and I don't feel like continuing. :\

There are levels, dude, people don't switch from boundless optimism to utter hopelessness at the drop of a hat...

Look, I'm not saying the story doesn't have problems. But I feel like people aren't giving the game a fair shake, that they're exaggerating some problems, inventing others, and ignoring when it does things right. I would be more willing to jump on its flaws if it didn't seem like discussions inevitably end up trashing it on their own.

 

Except nobody is "trashing" anything. All we're doing is criticizing it based on its content, and comparing it to other works in the series. Which is how a discussion works. Did you not read the many posts where I say that I liked Lost World's story? Just because I do like it doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to call it out on points that I feel were weak, and I'm kind of sick of people assuming that because I do that I'm "trashing" the game.

[Diogenes]

I'm not accusing anyone in particular of being entirely unfair, and I'm not saying you don't have a right to criticize (and after how much shit I went through arguing against the boost gameplay I know damn well what it's like to feel like your criticisms are being shut down). But with overall opinions on the story being so negative and some spurious criticisms being thrown about, it feels like the discussion is unfairly weighted towards the negative.

[Gabz Girl]

When I think of Jason, I always think of the Mazuri introduction cut scene where Sonic is all "thanks for that skydiving lesson Eggman!" Just screams sass and disrespect, I love it.

 

I've yet to find even one moment like that with Roger as Sonic, I always either roll my eyes, or cringe at his performances.

Yeah, and when I think of Jason I think of "ELIIIIIISE!"

Sorry, but I'm not keen on Griffith's voice at all. I think the only game he sounded pretty good was Sonic Unleashed. Except for Werehog, that was crap.

[azoo]

I'm not accusing anyone in particular of being entirely unfair, and I'm not saying you don't have a right to criticize (and after how much shit I went through arguing against the boost gameplay I know damn well what it's like to feel like your criticisms are being shut down). But with overall opinions on the story being so negative and some spurious criticisms being thrown about, it feels like the discussion is unfairly weighted towards the negative.

And whenever its viewed to be unfairly weighted towards the negative, it feels like whatever opinions from that negative side, whether well thought out or not, are disregarded since the opinion is treated more like a "me too" hivemind that requires convincing that it's not bad, rather than an opinion that it was a decent story that could've used a lot of work.

 

I don't hate Lost World's story or gameplay, in fact I kind of like them. I just kind of see how they could've been both better, just like how I view Colors and Generations and the Adventures and basically most Sonic games that aren't the classics since those didn't seem to have anything that blatantly needed to be better besides maybe Sonic CD. Lost World just rings out as one of those games that could've been a lot better. Not like it's worse than Heroes or 06 or the Storybook games but it still would need work to be a really great game; in both gameplay and storytelling and whatever other things.

[Celestia]

Tails was kidnapped, and as far as Sonic knew, a mindless drone of theirs. And going by your second point, Sonic should have never felt sad about Amy & Knuckles being gone, and he should never felt sad that Tails was kidnapped in the first place, because he never loses hope or gives into despair right? But that's exactly what he did in those scenes, so why was it ok in those scenes, but not ok when it would have been appropriate?

 

Sadness doesn't always equal anger, especially if someone's all angered out. All throughout the cutscenes in Silent Forest and Sky Road, Sonic was clearly pissed and was acting the way you say he should have acted near the end. But by Lava Mountain, his anger cooled off and had essentially been replaced by depression, especially when Eggman was supposedly dead and he lost connection to Earth. Not to say I think he had given up hope entirely, but I personally thought his almost tired response when he saw the D6 in Lava Mountain was reasonable.

 

I do wish they had elaborated more on certain things (I'm willing to believe it may be due to them being on a budget with cutscene footage more than anything), like the conch and the D6 themselves. Oh well.

[Gabz Girl]

Look I don't know if we're ever getting another epic Sonic story in a long time unless the backlash is vocal enough, which obviously it isn't. I liked SLW's story even though it wasn't amazing, but I'd like to go back to a story like Sonic Unleashed or the Storybook games. And it gives Roger a chance to do more with Sonic, since I know he has far more voice acting skills than Jason. Give him some more emotional moments and stuff!

This is why I hope the next Nintendo exclusive Sonic game is a Storybook one, if it means more great stories!

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

All and all Sonic is not perfect. He has his flaws just like every character does. Hes impluse, hes hyper and he can be too confident in his ablity. But what forgives those for me is that Sonic will do what he thinks is right and doesnt care about being the average hero. That line from Sonic and the Black Knight where he says that he doesnt care if he is the bad guy along as he gets to do what he feels is right? I see it as, it doesnt matter if others see him as a bad guy because in the end he will do what is truly right and prolonging a kingdom... isnt right. He doesnt care what anyone thinks of him as long as he can be Sonic. And thats what I like.

 

From beating Eggman with his acrobatic/shinobi moves, being the heart of his team always letting them know they can do it in Sonic Heroes, attempt to be the voice of reason in Shadow the Hedgehog because he cares, being the humble hero in Sonic and the Secret Rings to helping others open their hearts to the possiblites in other games.... I will leave with this (until I see something I to respond to and contribute)

 

Sonic is amazing　♥.

[azoo]

After I've simmered from the debate earlier, I got this to say.

 

I really am hoping for some game to come along that actually gives us a much bigger, better scope than the stories we've been getting lately. I understand that people want them to focus more on character interactions and the like as a bigger part of the story (and I agree, that's good to focus on), but the Adventures, Unleashed and the Storybook games really I think had the right kind of idea when it came to giving the series a narrative, and they should try mixing the two different focuses into one.

 

Because I mean, to be honest, I do want to see Roger take full reigns on Sonic. I want to see Sonic treated with more depth than he has been recently and I want that because I want to hear Roger flex his vocal muscles on him. Griffith took several years to get the ropes on him until Unleashed & SatBK, and in those games he pretty much rocked the performance! To see the dynamics of Unleashed/SatBK's Sonic performed with Roger's voice would definitely be a treat and probably be better than most interpretations of Sonic have ever been.

 

Because of this I'd personally like to see the storywriter(s) of the Storybook games and Pontac & Graff collab work on the next game's script and storyline. Let the former person/people iron out what makes Sonic and the characters themselves as well as the plot points, and let Pontac & Graff write the scripts for the cutscenes and the specific dialogue. Going for just the former team alone would risk it being potentially too dull or convoluted, while the latter would make it probably too goofy and simple, so both of them putting their heads together could be something great.

[Scar]

I agree with most of what you have said there Azoo, but unfortunately as I've said a few times before, this demands a massive paradigm shift in the way Sonic Team approach game design. 

They need to be more inclusive of the writers from the word go; from conceptualisation stages. They need to have an excellent dialogue between the programmers, the art designers, the writers, the audio engineers, the sound team, the computer graphics team and so on. Each part needs to work in unison with the others. Right now it seems like the people who design the game, do it, and then just ask the writers to fill in the gaps and connect the dots together. That's fine to a point, but if you want a meaningful narrative, you're going to need to do better than that.

[azoo]

Yes, which is why Sega needs to get their crap together and start making the games a bit more grandiose and efforted, especially if they're wanting to make something that'll be critically acclaimed. 

 

I mean, even Mario 3D World is a fun, simple romp and it feels more meaningful and wholehearted as an experience than the past couple of Sonic games do. And that didn't even really have a script, let alone a story. 

[Scar]

I mean, even Mario 3D World is a fun, simple romp and it feels more meaningful and wholehearted as an experience than the past couple of Sonic games do. And that didn't even really have a script, let alone a story. 

 

That would be because they accept the fact that Mario games have little to know story, beyond the initial motivating factor. They just get on with the rest of the game. Trouble with Sonic is, they place a degree of importance on narrative, and then proceed to either half-ass it, or arbitrarily confine its development.

[azoo]

I just want a Sonic game that feels like a solid experience. It really bothers me that Sega doesn't seem to be competent enough to pull it off.. or worse: they are competent enough but they just don't want to (which is probably the actual case).

 

The last "experience"-ish Sonic game was back in 2008 (you know the one) and all I can do is wish for another one to come our way some day. Those games always give me the longest-lasting impressions and warm fuzzy feelings, so yeah I'd welcome one with open arms. 

[Kuzu]

I really feel Iizuka needs to step down from Sonic Team, I understand he's responsible for games that people like such as Colors and whatnot, but ever since he's taken reigns as producer the series has gotten....stale, so to speak. It feels like he wants the games to be bigger than they are, but not willing to go through the effort to actually achieve that. Its just hurting the series overall, not that Lost World was a flop, but its very clear the game was not play-tested upon release given all of the issues pointed out by reviewers and gamers alike. Even if you ignore every reviewer because you don't think they're "credible", there's still the vast bit of people who point it out too, so something must be going wrong.

 

Iizuka can be a consultant at least, but I'd much rather see what a new team would do with the series. A younger generation would probably be more ambitious and try to give the series something fresh, and hopefully actually play test the games so they're as intuitive as possible.

 

 

 

But hell, what do I know. For all I know, Sega could just have Iizuka by the balls and just force them to release whatever game they made for a holiday release. Sonic's their only real cash cow in the US, so it wouldn't surprise me.

[Soniman]

Im reminded of this quote from Skyfall in a conversation between Q and Bond.

 

Q: Age is no guarantee of efficiency.

Bond: And youth is no guarantee of innovation.

 

Don't higher younger inexperienced blood that may take the series in a direction their not sure of, but also don't keep around members the old guard that don't know how to properly innovate on a game. When it comes down to you just have to hire people that are good at their craft and has something of reputable credentials.

 

Iizuka himself should probably not be fired, because he was the one who got folks outside the fanbase to actually like Sonic again (only for 3 years, but still) but maybe he should get someone else to take the reigns as leader, while sits in the back overseeing and/or offering advice.

[Celestia]

It feels like he wants the games to be bigger than they are, but not willing to go through the effort to actually achieve that. Its just hurting the series overall, not that Lost World was a flop, but its very clear the game was not play-tested upon release given all of the issues pointed out by reviewers and gamers alike.

What doesn't help this is that the previews, at least ones from big gaming journalism sites that Sonic Team would most likely hear about, were nothing but praise. I know playtesters are supposed to catch stuff too, but isn't criticism that can be addressed in the final product part of the point of previews??

[Kuzu]

The thing about previews is, they're supposed to get you hyped for the game. Nobody is gonna be  really hyped for the game if they think it isn't that good. Which has the unfortunate side effect of making a game look better than it actually is. Hogfather even pointed this out when he previewed the game and wasn't happy with it.

[Celestia]

I know it's said a lot, but gaming journalism is absolutely baffling. I guess it's supposed to make sense because this is the way it'd been for quite some time, but ugh.

 

Anywho, more on topic, I think I said this even before the game came out, but one thing I hope continues is the little details in the level gimmicks. Like the crystals in Windy Hill Zone 3 that give you Rings, all the stuff in the casino level, etc. The gameplay in SLW overall has some issues that I want to be addressed if they continue with the formula, but I really do appreciate the little things.