So... What's so Bad About the Series' Current Direction?

[Splash the Otter]

Being a jerk and even juvenile are things that do come from being impatient and cocky/arrogant.

That doesn't make it okay though.

 

"Pre-Colors" Sonic is the unlikable stereotype, the flawless, lifeless hero, who does nothing but be a hero because hero.

And "post-Colors" Sonic is the reverse end of the spectrum, who does exactly the same thing as "pre-Colors" Sonic but makes lame jokes about it. How is that any better?

 

Hey, look at which lines actually have character and which ones are lifeless statements that communicate nothing about Sonic.

But on the other hand, look at which lines sound more like something a real person would say!

 

If the Japanese script sucks all the life out of the character, then fuck the Japanese script. No wonder Japan doesn't like Sonic if that's all they ever got.

I fail to see how reining in some of the more extreme (or exaggerated) aspects of Sonic's personality counts as "sucking the life out of him". Care to explain?

[Tornado]

People can have personality, character and charm without being annoying, hateable one-dimensional stereotypes.

Again, I'll happily take the Japanese (and this goes for the other characters as well) more arguably generic and inoffensive dialogue rather than one-dimensional, obnoxious and stereotypical.

 

You're not using that phrase properly. Sonic the Incorruptibly Pure Being of Pure Pureness is the one with no defining character traits. Sonic the Cocky Smartass is just the one with character traits you don't like.

 

That doesn't make it okay though.

Doesn't make what okay? The presence of character flaws?

[Soniman]

But on the other hand, look at which lines sound more like something a real person would say!

 

Because I really want Sonic to act like a regular joe and not have his own personality quirks.

[Diogenes]

But on the other hand, look at which lines sound more like something a real person would say!

Both. One by a very boring, bland person, the other by someone who's cocky and likes to make wisecracks.

I fail to see how reining in some of the more extreme (or exaggerated) aspects of Sonic's personality counts as "sucking the life out of him". Care to explain?

What does he even have left if you take out his attitude? If he can't be cocky, if he can't crack wise, then he isn't much more than a plain, generic hero-type. He'd have less character even than Mario.

And people keep acting like he's slinging some horrendous abuse, when all he's doing is making a few jokes.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

On the topic of revolving main character slots, I'd love to see Sonic go on a trio adventure with Blaze and Omega.

[Dizcrybe]

To be honest, the series' current direction doesn't bother me much at all. Not even Sola Sonica. Lost World may not have been the best game, but it wasn't bad, IMO, just too dickishly hard for its own good. I appreciate what it tried to do, and would like it if they tried to improve it in future games (which they probably won't seeing how it was received).

 

Also, I think people really exaggerate how Mario-esque the new gameplay is. When I see Sonic slowed down to a perpetual jog (no, not like in Lost World. People exaggerate that, too), doing triple jump flip things, going into pipes, doing butt-stomps, bashing blocks for rings, hell, bashing blocks for coins, powerups that look suspiciously like mushrooms, elemental flowers, and end-of-level flagpoles, you know, stuff you see in an actual Mario game, then I'll call foul. Till then, I'll just wonder what they're gonna do for the next game.

[Tornado]

Except that, along with much of the early-90s American 'assface' Sonic was shitty 90's 'raaaaaadical' marketing which was completely abandoned when Sonic Adventure came along, wiped the slate clean and overrode everything with a united, worldwide canon.

 

Western Sonic was like that in the early 90s. That personality has no place in the modern canon and clashes violently with the personality that's been established for him since Sonic Adventure.

This argument is rather silly. You're basically dismissing the character's (and franchises') entire reasoning for existence as being a result of nothing more than shitty marketing. If so, and the One True Japanese Canon is what everyone should strive for, what's the point of the series even being around nowadays?

I'm not saying that the Colors writing itself is what people should be after, but why is it completely out there for people to want something from the characters beyond Ichigo the Kurosaki and his ragtag group of stock Shonen character archetypes? Why are they not allowed to try to expand on him and attempt to go back to the series' roots just because the "modern canon" is being dictated from a set of cultural values where "cool" means "respect your elders"? They still market Sonic games and the Sonic character as having some variety of rebellion (as well they should, because that is the point), which is at major odds when Sonic basically acted like this for several years:

[Splash the Otter]

 Doesn't make what okay? The presence of character flaws?

Character flaws are one thing. Being unlikeable is another. Sonic has steadily been moving into the latter category for me.

 

Both. One by a very boring, bland person, the other by someone who's cocky and likes to make wisecracks.

So what you're saying is that unless every word he says is drenched in "attitude", Sonic is a bland character? Forgive me for saying this, but that doesn't make any sense.

 

What does he even have left if you take out his attitude? If he can't be cocky, if he can't crack wise, then he isn't much more than a plain, generic hero-type. He'd have less character even than Mario.jokes.

At what point did I advocate removing Sonic's personality? I just think it should be toned down a bit. There's more to Sonic than arrogance and lame jokes, but none of the recent games have made much of an effort to show this.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

So what you're saying is that unless every word he says is drenched in "attitude", Sonic is a bland character? Forgive me for saying this, but that doesn't make any sense.

What he's saying is that Sonic should have more energy to their personality, the "attitude" that makes up a lot of his character, than being given bland lines that are only there to verbally convey his thoughts and little else.

 

Sonic is a wise-cracker, that gives his personailty a lot of energy and gives him the "attitude" he is known for. So he throws jokes and mild insults towards his adversaries in the same manner Spider-man does when fighting his foes. Now there are different ways to give a character energy to their personality that can fit Sonic, but when I read these two lines for example:

 

Japanese - Are you leaving?

English - Hey ya big drip, where ya goin'?

 

One of them has a lot more energy, showing Sonic's wise-cracking personality, than the other.

[azoo]

Ugh, it's so hard to take sides in these kind of arguments because its so hard to pinpoint the middle / neutral grounds. I end up agreeing with one post and then another that says exactly the opposite, since it brings up a different point I agree with entirely.

Spiderman may spout one-liners and be all sassy as anyone could ever be, but he's got depth past that as well as ulterior motives just like any good character. Why Sonic's gotta either be 100% spunky dudebro or 100% bland-ass goody hero is beyond me.

The reason I cling to the Adventures so much for Sonic's characterization is that he at least has a semblance of range in when/where/how he acts and reacts to things (between his "cheeseball sassmaster", "get serious and badass", and "sentimental friendly wandering hero" modes) and it makes him a very likeable character. SLW does this too to some extent but you see it for such short instances and it's taken so lightly by the storytelling that it's a bit hard to tell it even happened.

 

And yeah, while the English dub goes overboard most of the time, the JP dialogue is usually pretty grade-A uninteresting. Can't really defend that.

[-Mark-]

What he's saying is that Sonic should have more energy to their personality, the "attitude" that makes up a lot of his character, than being given bland lines that are only there to verbally convey his thoughts and little else.

 

Sonic is a wise-cracker, that gives his personailty a lot of energy and gives him the "attitude" he is known for. So he throws jokes and mild insults towards his adversaries in the same manner Spider-man does when fighting his foes. Now there are different ways to give a character energy to their personality that can fit Sonic, but when I read these two lines for example:

 

Japanese - Are you leaving?

English - Hey ya big drip, where ya goin'?

 

One of them has a lot more energy, showing Sonic's wise-cracking personality, than the other.

 

I love how people are jumping on "Japanese Sonic is a bland, generic, boring hero and devoid of all personality and character" based on literally two or three lines of dialogue I posted for comparison.

 

The fact someone isn't a one-dimensional, one-note, flanderized stereotype does not automatically make them devoid of character or a 'generic hero'.

 

Sonic has always (sorry, pre-Colours) had multiple sides to his personality. You know, like a real person does. The lines I posted are generic? Sure, they are. The thing is, they’re totally ordinary lines. A character doesn’t have to overdo it and throw their ‘personality’ in your face with every single sentence. Real people tend not to try too hard and overplay every single line of their dialogue in a poor attempt to convey a single personality trait. That’s just forced, bad writing- a character should convey themselves without the writer feeling the need to constantly and relentlessly ‘remind’ the audience of the character’s supposedly defining traits.

 

Japanese/ pre-Colours Sonic has had plenty of personality- he’s just acted more appropriately in each situation, rather than being the ‘always-on’ “Whoa, hey dudes, check out how AWESOME I am! Did you catch the part where I was COCKY and IN-YOUR-FACE?” Sonic we have today.

 

Moreover, within the game canon, Sonic has never (until Colours) been this hyperactive, overly impatient, cocky ‘edgy’ character that he was so often portrayed as in the West. He’s never been the ‘reckless idiot’ character who rushes in blindly without thinking of the consequences of his actions.

 

Sonic was generally quite laid back- he was quite often shown just relaxing at times. He had a cheeky, playful side. He could sometimes tease his friends in jest, but it was never abrasive or mean-spirited. He’d show off a little at times when the mood struck him, yet at the same time, when the situation called for it, he could be serious, mature and wise beyond his years. He had a sensitive side that showed empathy and emotional understanding (cases in point primarily being the Storybook games).

 

In Sonic Adventure, Sonic acknowledges that simply defeating Chaos won’t change anything. He shows consideration for both Chaos and the future consequences of his actions, rather than just seeing what’s immediately in front of him. Rather than blindly and recklessly charging in with “Let’s beat the big monster”, he points out that the cycle need to be broken.

 

In Adventure 2, when he’s suddenly caught in the capsule and about to be shot to his apparent death, he takes it calmly and in a mature manner. Rather than freaking out, panicking and lashing out at Eggman, for that moment, he resigns himself to acceptance. He’s (as far as he knows at that moment) going to die. Rather than get angry, scared or snarky, he uses his last words to encourage and comfort Tails and Amy. That isn’t the behaviour of the shallow, petty child that Sonic has now become.

 

As much as people are going to call foul of me for bringing it up, Sonic X also has some brilliant portrayals of Sonic’s character. Yes, X isn’t canon to the games which is why I’m giving these less importance and putting them last, but at the same time, say what you will about it, but in terms of characterisation and portrayal of Sonic as a character in general, X’s iteration of him was near-identical to the games to the point where I can’t help but feel it holds some weight.

 

Looking back at the semifinal episode of the original series, Chris has just shut off the portal Sonic was about to use to head home. In doing so, he’s potentially made it so that Sonic can never go home and might never see any of his friends ever again. Is Sonic angry? Not even in the slightest. Even though both he and Chris know it was a selfish thing to do, he tolerates it comfortably and tells Chris that if he wants Sonic to stay, that’s what he’ll do. Not so much that he genuinely is willing to stay- more that he wants Chris to come to terms with it himself and accept that parting ways is the ‘right’ thing to do. He shows massive maturity and understanding toward someone who has potentially fucked his life up forever. He sees that Chris is a lonely child trying to come to terms with something difficult and stands by him until he can grow up and accept the truth.

 

tl;dr? Contrary to what some horrid localisation jobs might have you believe, game-canon Sonic, until Colours, was not, and had never been, the cocky, wisecracking, arrogant ‘blue dude with a ‘tude’ that the West so loved to portray him as in the early 90s. Nor was he just ‘the generic hero’. Sonic, whilst still maintaining a cheeky, playful side, had depth and maturity well beyond his years, which sadly seems to have gone over a lot of peoples’ heads. Just because a character isn’t forcing cheesy one-liners into every sentence of their dialogue does not make them lifeless and generic.

 

Also, if you want to make the argument of Japanese/ pre-Colours Sonic being the ‘generic hero’, let me throw that back at you- what is post-Colours Sonic, short of being a generic, cocky wisecracker? The argument works both ways, people.

[Soniman]

That isn’t the behaviour of the shallow, petty child that Sonic has now become.

 

If pre-Colors Sonic can be seen as having all these emotional ranges and depth to him, I don't understand how it doesn't count in SLW where he goes through several emotional ranges then what you seem to view him as. He wrestles with guilt when he realizes he's made grave error due to not listening to his friend, frustration at his inability to save the people he cares about, with constant taunting by the Zeti to make it worse, even grieving for Eggman due to his "sacrifice", and finally extreme sadness when he realizes that the mistakes he made may have costed the lives of those he cares about, but those of his entire world it. This reaches a climax when he discovers Tails in his robot form, only able to bounce back due to Tails' own intervention. But no, he's apparently just a petty selfish asshole that only cares about himself?

[-Mark-]

Oh, I won’t deny that they’re at least trying in Lost World. However, the problem is that they’re trying and failing spectacularly. The scenes are so brief and the story so shallow that it really feels more like they’re ticking boxes. Even when Lost World is trying to be serious, none of the scenes you mentioned feel as though they have any real weight behind them, making everything just come across as really forced and insincere. It feels like they’re trying to shoehorn some semblance of deeper characterisation but not allotting the time for it, the result feeling like an abridged paint-by-numbers plot.

 

Sonic mourns Eggman’s apparent death for the best part of three seconds before moving on as though almost nothing happened. The robot Tails matter is resolved before it can even sink in enough to become a thing. Everything is just so quick-fire to the point where it all just seems inconsequential and pointless. A couple of forced and cackhanded obligatory ‘serious’ moments do not equate to thoughtful or meaningful writing and characterisation.

[Komodin]

 

Sonic Adventure:

 

Japanese: "You running away?" 

English: "Come on, ya big drip! Where ya goin'?"

 

Japanese: "It's you... Dr. Eggman!!"

English: "Hey look, it's a giant talking egg"

 

And that's just dumb localisation. By the time Colours rolled around, a ton of the lines were completely different between English and Japanese. I'm talking not even having the same context or meaning at all.

 

... Sorry, Mark, but if you're trying to convince me on the Japanese script's supposed superiority over that of the English, then... eh, you should've picked better examples than this. This may be dialogue that a "real person" would say, but honestly, Sonic has always struck as a "larger than life" sort of individual, and  with that, I find this dialogue really unfitting for him. I think this is what the others meant by it being lifeless and meh -- it's the sort of thing any character can say. Say what you will about the somewhat cheesy dialogue that Sonic has a penchant for speaking nowadays, but at least one can more easily pinpoint to being something Sonic would say, as opposed to Generic the Character #1991.

 

Also, I think we can do without the needless aggression, guys. That's not cool for a good discussion... 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I love how people are jumping on "Japanese Sonic is a bland, generic, boring hero and devoid of all personality and character" based on literally two or three lines of dialogue I posted for comparison.

Well, those two or three lines of the japanese dialogue you gave are bland by comparison to the english ones, so if you're trying to prove otherwise you could have given better examples.

 

I don't see how I was jumping the bandwagon of Japanese Sonic being a "generic boring hero devoid of all personality and character", tho. All I said was one line had more energy and worked for Sonic and the other was bland by comparison.

[-Mark-]

As I already pointed out, the examples I gave were very basic, ordinary lines- cases where someone usually wouldn't express any particular character or personality, and to do so would feel forced and unnatural. The thing is, what a lot of people are seeing as 'characterisation fitting for Sonic', I just see as 'generic overplayed cool guy'. I don't feel those lines are really less 'anybody could say them' than the more 'ordinary' Japanese dialogue.

 

Irrespective, I feel like we've gradually deviated a bit from the original point- hell, I originally posted those comparisons simply to show how different the scripts can be in response to a claim that they were generally the same- but in fairness, for the most part (and they improved on this after Adventure), the Japanese and English scripts were largely similar from SA1 through Black Knight. Irrespective of language, they still conveyed much the same story, tone and characterisation.

 

Either way, I'm not here to tell anyone that their opinion is wrong, and similarly that's not something I expect to be told either. From Colours onward the writing has differed quite a bit between English and Japanese, although I can't say I've found either script to tell a good story in any of those games. 

 

I think Lost World has terrible writing and characterisation, whatever the language. The characters are just slightly more tolerable with the Japanese script, to me, although even that's not saying very much in this case.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

As I already pointed out, the examples I gave were very basic, ordinary lines- cases where someone usually wouldn't express any particular character or personality, and to do so would feel forced and unnatural. 

Which is exactly the problem we find in those examples because we don't feel they fit the character saying them better than the other. Nothing wrong with having ordinary lines, but they should be given extraordinary lines that give us a taste of their dominant character personalities.

[E-122-Psi]

I don't think X Sonic is a good display of his FULL character at all. Of the positive qualities perhaps, but otherwise he's kinda a one note Ace, in the background in favor of more interesting characters. Heroes era games were similar. He's almost the opposite approach, a character who is implied to have flaws, but never really has them hinder him in the slightest. Western medias like Satam, STC and Archie are the opposite, simplifying him to his negative qualities and overdoing his attitude, usually by having more 'down to earth' and competent characters such as Sally (who are usually on similar ground as X/Heroes Sonic) punctuate his shortcomings.

 

Lost World at least tried a compromise, giving Sonic a personality defining moment of error but still keeping his redeeming aspects such as his good temper and humility in check. If they keep doing these OVER AND OVER and Flanderize Sonic of his good qualities, then maybe I'll complain, but right now I think it was just to show a different side to him.

[-Mark-]

The problem I find with that is that, as I've said, unnecessarily putting said personality into perfectly ordinary lines that shouldn't even warrant or require it just feels like it's trying too hard to convey something. It feels forced, unnatural, and at worst, cringeworthy. It's what makes characters feel like irritating stereotypes and what makes them feel like they're 'always on'.

 

A dominant personality trait doesn't automatically mean it has to permeate every single aspect of their mannerisms. That's when characters start become annoying flanderisations of themselves.

[E-122-Psi]

I do understand wanting some subtlety at times, but ultimately I kinda like the characters having very distinguished dialogue and mannerisms. One of my key problems with more dignified medias such as Archie is how expositiony they are, to the point you could switch lines and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. They're also sometimes very bad at doing sort of personality defining plot points such as these. Lost World might have overdone, but it is at least trying to make the personalities of the cast matter to the story.

[Diogenes]

Sonic, whilst still maintaining a cheeky, playful side, had depth and maturity well beyond his years, which sadly seems to have gone over a lot of peoples’ heads.

"Cheeky" without ever actually saying anything cheeky, and oh so perfect and wise. *gag*

Just because a character isn’t forcing cheesy one-liners into every sentence of their dialogue

Which isn't what I'm advocating at all. On the other hand, you seem to want to strip away any kind of one-liner.

[-Mark-]

Used appropriately and sparingly (as normal people would do), and without scraping the bottom of the barrel, they're fine. It's more the fact that the majority of Colours' script was just Sonic spouting out terrible playground humour and little else.

 

Yes, Lost World cuts back on them, but they're still cringe-inducingly juvenile and/ or needlessly spiteful when they are used.

 

The best example of Sonic 'insulting' someone without being a dick about it I can think of off the top of my head is in Adventure 2- when Eggman remarks that Sonic survived being ejected into space, he smugly replied that "Letting Knuckles pilot the ship here was more dangerous than you". This is the same in both Japanese and English, and gets the point across without being overly spiteful or childish. 

[Dr. Mechano]

As far as gameplay for the 3D series goes, I prefer the Adventure style platforming over boosting or SLW's parkour system. It was good, simple platforming fun, and I think they nailed it the first two times.

 

Story, on the other hand, is basically exactly what I want out of a Sonic game:

• Plots are whimsical and lighthearted, but still carry emotional weight for the characters involved.
• Eggman is actually an important figure in the plot. I cannot stress enough how important this is after seeing Eggman relegated to a side character for years.
• Witty, clever dialog that provides both humor and characterization, not merely bare-bones exposition for the sake of moving the plot along.
• Characters feel vibrant and alive, and fall less into bland stereotypes. 

This is exactly what I want out of a Sonic story. So I'm very happy with the current direction in that respect.

[Vertekins]

The fact someone isn't a one-dimensional, one-note, flanderized stereotype does not automatically make them devoid of character or a 'generic hero'.

 

Sonic has always (sorry, pre-Colours) had multiple sides to his personality. You know, like a real person does. The lines I posted are generic? Sure, they are. The thing is, they’re totally ordinary lines. A character doesn’t have to overdo it and throw their ‘personality’ in your face with every single sentence. Real people tend not to try too hard and overplay every single line of their dialogue in a poor attempt to convey a single personality trait. That’s just forced, bad writing- a character should convey themselves without the writer feeling the need to constantly and relentlessly ‘remind’ the audience of the character’s supposedly defining traits.

 

Japanese/pre-Colours Sonic has had plenty of personality- he’s just acted more appropriately in each situation, rather than being the ‘always-on’ “Whoa, hey dudes, check out how AWESOME I am! Did you catch the part where I was COCKY and IN-YOUR-FACE?” Sonic we have today.

This I agree with.

 

The thing about Sonic is that he seems to treat his coolness and ability to kick robot ass as obvious and inherent, not something to boast about to such an utterly fucking obnoxious degree. You can see it in '06 even, in Unleashed, in SatBK - He takes out hordes of robots and/or other enemies without so much as a word, simply noting how he's used to being forced into bizarre situations in the latter. It gives the character's abilities more impact too because he or the scene isn't consumed with acting like an up-his-own-ass braggart. He does what he does with style, not delegated to standing there and acting like a cheeseball by boasting about what he's going to do/What he did.

 

It's just one example of how being faithful to Sonic's more subtle traits that factor into making his actions all the more of a spectacle has been downright ignored. It's nothing more than flanderization of Sonic's propensity for arrogance and showmanship regarding his abilities and I personally find it quite annoying.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I think Sonic in both languages had the same amazing personality. But I prefer him in English because he had more feelings