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So... What's so Bad About the Series' Current Direction?


Briraka

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I think Sonic in both languages had the same amazing personality. But I prefer him in English because he had more feelings

What does this even mean

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What does this even mean

 

She's saying that, while both "interpretations" of Sonic are cool to her, she prefers the English interpretation because she feels he's more "expressive" of his feelings. English is not her native tongue.

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What does this even mean

That he often shows more range of personality, soul, emotion and whatnot in the English version?wink.png

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in English, hes worried about his friends more while being more laid back. In Japanese its the same but he talks to his friends as if they were below him.

 

sample:

 

Sonic: What is your name? I'm Sonic!

 

ソニック:オマエの名前は?オレはソニック。

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Yeah, I definitely get my miles worth more so with the English script sans Sonic 06.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but 'omae' is just a very casual form of the word 'you', is it not? From what I'm aware, it's very common amongst almost all protagonists in anime, games and manga, apart from very polite characters.

 

I don't think Sonic is trying to talk down to his friends by using that term. It just feels like it would be too formal for him to use 'kimi' or 'anata' (I think those are both words for 'you', anyway).

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but 'omae' is just a very casual form of the word 'you', is it not? From what I'm aware, it's very common amongst almost all protagonists in anime, games and manga, apart from very polite characters.

 

I don't think Sonic is trying to talk down to his friends by using that term. It just feels like it would be too formal for him to use 'kimi' or 'anata' (I think those are both words for 'you', anyway).

 

we mostly use オマエ when we think we are better than the person. "前” means before so together it means the person before you. but used in anime context, it is friendly depending on who you are speaking to. they only seem to use it in kanji of 1} Shadow is speaking or 2) Sonic or Eggman are very angry.

 

so yes it is friendly and casual but at the same time... people should becareful who they say it to.

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in English, hes worried about his friends more while being more laid back. In Japanese its the same but he talks to his friends as if they were below him.

 

sample:

 

Sonic: What is your name? I'm Sonic!

 

ソニック:オマエの名前は?オレはソニック。

 

The line in Japanese doesn't come off to me as Sonic looking down at others, it just comes off to me as being a tad blunt. For instance, when he asked for Chip's name in JP Unleashed, his tone sounded genuinely curious and certainly not uppity.

 

If there's one thing I dislike about English Sonic, it's the way the scriptwriter/voice director had a propensity for putting more distance between him and Amy than what there really is. In Adventure for example, Sonic gives off the vibe that he's going along with Amy out of pure obligation and is inclined to be rather irritated with her. I didn't quite get this feel from JP Sonic, who more often than not sounded weirded-out by her, like someone who isn't used to the advances of someone like Amy.

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The line in Japanese doesn't come off to me as Sonic looking down at others, it just comes off to me as being a tad blunt. For instance, when he asked for Chip's name in JP Unleashed, his tone sounded genuinely curious and certainly not uppity.

 

If there's one thing I dislike about English Sonic, it's the way the scriptwriter/voice director had a propensity for putting more distance between him and Amy than what there really is. In Adventure for example, Sonic gives off the vibe that he's going along with Amy out of pure obligation and is inclined to be rather irritated with her. I didn't quite get this feel from JP Sonic, who more often than not sounded weirded-out by her, like someone who isn't used to the advances of someone like Amy.

 True, I didnt say all the time, but sometimes I notice in English that he talks like hes on the game level. Which is that amazed me and made me want to learn. Because in Japanese we have to becareful of what we use and who we use it with to avoid sounding like a jackass to the wrong person.  

 

He did say that Amy was a pain in English ;p

I also hate when people say Sonic is a bully

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Well, it is kind of a pain when the person you're looking after runs off.laugh.png

 

EDIT: Oops, read that as "I also hate it when Sonic is a bully". Sorry about that...

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it doesnt make him a bully though. why do people say hes a bully? do they even know what one is??

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Speaking of Sonic "being a bully", there's one more thing that I'd like to address:

 

More the cringe-inducingly juvenile and completely unprovoked insults against Eggman and various members of the Deadly Six. In particular the early 'raise your hand if Eggman's a bonehead' remark and insulting Zeena for 'having nothing better to do with her time'.

 

Well, I can kinda agree that it was somewhat juvenile, but I certainly wouldn't call either of those incidents "completely" unprovoked:

 

1) In the "Eggman's a total bonehead" scene, prior to that line from Sonic, Eggman was acting like a jackass towards him, ascribing all the blame for their current predicament on him despite being the instigator of the whole dilemma to begin with.

2) Besides being a direct co-conspirator to his world being slowly reduced to a dried-out husk of rock, Zeena made an earlier attempt at Sonic's life prior to their "reunion", and even then, she was far more concerned with her nails than that she was helping to destroy everything Sonic knows and loves.

 

I don't know about you, but in both those instances, I say Sonic was perfectly justified in snarking back at them.

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it doesnt make him a bully though. why do people say hes a bully? do they even know what one is??

 

I agree. Sonic isn't really a bully at all. And I too get irritated with assurances that he is or games like Chronicles which outright paints him as a fickle bully through much of the dialogue.

 

Sonic's character really isn't cold or jerkish. He can have a sharp tongue and can give back as good or better than what he gets but the majority of the time, Sonic just comes-off as a tease and a genuinely good-hearted, warm person.

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STC Sonic, on the other hand... :P

 

No, no sorry I'm not gonna go there. I know this conversation is about Sonic in the games!

 

No, he's definitely not a bully, but he is a smartass. :D

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I love how people are jumping on "Japanese Sonic is a bland, generic, boring hero and devoid of all personality and character" based on literally two or three lines of dialogue I posted for comparison.

You're giving yourself far too much credit at sinking your own arguments. This thread is hardly the first one to make the charge that Sonic pre-Colors was some bastion of character depth.

 

The fact someone isn't a one-dimensional, one-note, flanderized stereotype does not automatically make them devoid of character or a 'generic hero'.

You really need to stop throwing those words around. Post-Colors Sonic isn't that no matter how much you don't like his characterization.

 

Sonic has always (sorry, pre-Colours) had multiple sides to his personality. You know, like a real person does. The lines I posted are generic? Sure, they are. The thing is, they’re totally ordinary lines. A character doesn’t have to overdo it and throw their ‘personality’ in your face with every single sentence. Real people tend not to try too hard and overplay every single line of their dialogue in a poor attempt to convey a single personality trait. That’s just forced, bad writing- a character should convey themselves without the writer feeling the need to constantly and relentlessly ‘remind’ the audience of the character’s supposedly defining traits.

What is also bad writing is assuring the audience that the trait exists and then making no effort whatsoever to show it.

 

Moreover, within the game canon, Sonic has never (until Colours) been this hyperactive, overly impatient, cocky ‘edgy’ character that he was so often portrayed as in the West. He’s never been the ‘reckless idiot’ character who rushes in blindly without thinking of the consequences of his actions.

He isn't a reckless idiot now. These strawmans are rather annoying. Of course, I could bring up Sonic Heroes, if you want an example of Sonic acting like a reckless idiot.

 

 

The fact that the series has absolutely no continuity regarding what consequences are serious and which are a mild annoyance also moots this argument.

 

Sonic was generally quite laid back- he was quite often shown just relaxing at times. He had a cheeky, playful side. He could sometimes tease his friends in jest, but it was never abrasive or mean-spirited. He’d show off a little at times when the mood struck him, yet at the same time, when the situation called for it, he could be serious, mature and wise beyond his years. He had a sensitive side that showed empathy and emotional understanding (cases in point primarily being the Storybook games).

So more Goku than Ichigo.

 

tl;dr? Contrary to what some horrid localisation jobs might have you believe, game-canon Sonic, until Colours, was not, and had never been, the cocky, wisecracking, arrogant ‘blue dude with a ‘tude’ that the West so loved to portray him as in the early 90s.

This statement makes no sense no matter what level you argue it from.

If the game script, the official approved by Sega script, suggested such a thing; then yes, that was his personality regardless of whether you find the localization "appropriate". The fact that his personality was also pretty much what you said for the first 8 years of the series in all of the markets that actually mattered for the franchise before a massive reboot changed everything cannot be so readily dismissed either as you've been doing thus far.

 

I'm also going to make the assumption that the increasing influence of the original Western canon over the past few years is because of the complaints that had dogged the series ever since Adventure regarding Sonic's personality. It's not too hard to dredge up a review of an Adventure era games that complained that Sonic come off as a piece of white toast even in the stories that were reasonably good.

 

 

In Sonic Adventure, Sonic acknowledges that simply defeating Chaos won’t change anything. He shows consideration for both Chaos and the future consequences of his actions, rather than just seeing what’s immediately in front of him. Rather than blindly and recklessly charging in with “Let’s beat the big monster”, he points out that the cycle need to be broken.

In Adventure 2, when he’s suddenly caught in the capsule and about to be shot to his apparent death, he takes it calmly and in a mature manner. Rather than freaking out, panicking and lashing out at Eggman, for that moment, he resigns himself to acceptance. He’s (as far as he knows at that moment) going to die. Rather than get angry, scared or snarky, he uses his last words to encourage and comfort Tails and Amy. That isn’t the behaviour of the shallow, petty child that Sonic has now become.

As much as people are going to call foul of me for bringing it up, Sonic X also has some brilliant portrayals of Sonic’s character. Yes, X isn’t canon to the games which is why I’m giving these less importance and putting them last, but at the same time, say what you will about it, but in terms of characterisation and portrayal of Sonic as a character in general, X’s iteration of him was near-identical to the games to the point where I can’t help but feel it holds some weight.

Looking back at the semifinal episode of the original series, Chris has just shut off the portal Sonic was about to use to head home. In doing so, he’s potentially made it so that Sonic can never go home and might never see any of his friends ever again. Is Sonic angry? Not even in the slightest. Even though both he and Chris know it was a selfish thing to do, he tolerates it comfortably and tells Chris that if he wants Sonic to stay, that’s what he’ll do. Not so much that he genuinely is willing to stay- more that he wants Chris to come to terms with it himself and accept that parting ways is the ‘right’ thing to do. He shows massive maturity and understanding toward someone who has potentially fucked his life up forever. He sees that Chris is a lonely child trying to come to terms with something difficult and stands by him until he can grow up and accept the truth.

Nor was he just ‘the generic hero’. Sonic, whilst still maintaining a cheeky, playful side, had depth and maturity well beyond his years, which sadly seems to have gone over a lot of peoples’ heads.

Because the actual writing doesn't support that argument. Verte broke all of that down far more extensively than you have been about a year ago, and I'll just quote myself from then:

Overwhelming selflessness driving character actions, which is what the majority of your write up revolves around Sonic having in games, is only a smidge or two away from Incorruptible Pure Pureness. And of all of the things that could be brought up to explain why Sonic is not a generic Shonen hero, that is the absolute worst thing that you could have centered on to demonstrate it; being a character trait that is almost as intertwined with the popular concept of Shonen as tournament arcs and the power of friendship.

 

 

Also, if you want to make the argument of Japanese/ pre-Colours Sonic being the ‘generic hero’, let me throw that back at you- what is post-Colours Sonic, short of being a generic, cocky wisecracker? The argument works both ways, people.

It doesn't work both ways, because the second one is actually a relateable character; and would be even moreso if he his dialogue (jokes) were better. I know plenty of cocksure, semi-arrogant but legitimately very skilled people. I don't know anybody who never ever ever ever ever ever let's their own wishes get in the way of always helping others first; to the extent that they seemingly only exist to help others.

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A bully is someone who makes fun of another just so that they make themselves feel good. Sonic? Sonic already has confidence in himself he doesnt need to pick on Dr Eggman or anyone else to make himself feel good. Hs pointing out facts. Amy is a weirdo (he said that), Knuckles is a Knucklehead and Eggman is a tool. But hes not doing it to boost his ego, hes telling truth but in a witty way. Plus Eggman doesnt care. Eggman still has his confidence and its not like hes crying or hurting himself "waaah Sonic made fun of meee". He finds new ways to get back at him. So dont say that Sonic is a bully because hes not! :/

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Something I heavily dislike with Sonic is how he's such a cardboard cutout of a hero. He's either always either upbeat or cocky, sometimes shocked or those rare moments where he's angry (Shit happening to Tails, Alf-alibaba wathever the fuck, ...) but I wanna see some REAL overarching character developement, or even backstory. I wanna see him get broken, get frustrated, become relieved, jealous... I want to KNOW and SEE Sonics humanity. This is the reason why I lean more towards Silver, because he shows a lot of emotion. (Wellasmuchashecanin1game)

EDIT: I should clear this up, I dont think Sonic is a generic hero. Just a hero and nothing else

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I for one would like to see more monopolization on what is practically an informed attribute in Sonic's character - His short temper.

Impulsiveness was somewhat decently handled in SLW and that game finally made Sonic act like he felt culpable for what went down. I've always thought that this was more than what Unleashed ever attested to and that's saying something considering I hold that game's portrayal of Sonic in pretty high regard. I just wish he actually gains some kind of development from it.

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Something I heavily dislike with Sonic is how he's such a cardboard cutout of a hero. He's either always either upbeat or cocky, sometimes shocked or those rare moments where he's angry (Shit happening to Tails, Alf-alibaba wathever the fuck, ...) but I wanna see some REAL overarching character developement, or even backstory. I wanna see him get broken, get frustrated, become relieved, jealous... I want to KNOW and SEE Sonics humanity.

I think it's a bit too late to go into his backstory at this point (short of pairing it with a reboot, anyway), but otherwise yeah. I mean, that's one of the reasons why I liked SLoW's story; regardless of what anyone might feel about the quality of it, they definitely didn't settle for Sonic and Tails just being generically heroic, trundling through the game without any reactions beyond smiling or looking serious. They made a genuine attempt to explore sides of the characters that we don't normally see.
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I for one would like to see more monopolization on what is practically an informed attribute in Sonic's character - His short temper.

Impulsiveness was somewhat decently handled in SLW and that game finally made Sonic act like he felt culpable for what went down. I've always thought that this was more than what Unleashed ever attested to and that's saying something considering I hold that game's portrayal of Sonic in pretty high regard. I just wish he actually gains some kind of development from it.

I actually kinda like they give Sonic a very good temperament, it's something that stands out as a great defining redeeming aspect for the games version. Most of the alternate medias that are more short fused I feel have the tendency to get more vindictive or in constant need of soothing and patronizing, and at times actually lean more into this 'bully' territory that people complain about (eg. Satam Sonic needed calming by Sal constantly and his treatment of Antoine was Flanderized from playful retorts to his snobbishness to just constant angry sneers of contempt for his very existence). They're usually the most dysfunctional of their team and don't really have a big positive pivot for moments of clarity without it.

 

I feel Sonic was balanced in Lost World because while flawed they still shown how his redeeming aspects helped others, his calmer attitude trying to stop an feud heating up between Eggman and Tails (it might make a good dual sided chemistry if they develop this, Sonic is reckless and hyper, but mellowed out, Tails is more rational and tactical but easily frustrated and bratty, both can support the other's vices).

 

He did finally start to lose it near the climax, but it maintained a 'Tranquil Fury' controlled element to it, making clear he's not usually one to blow his gasket.

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SLW's story isn't very good, but I do give them points for at least trying to improve the cast.

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I think it's a bit too late to go into his backstory at this point (short of pairing it with a reboot, anyway),

I'd actually go as far to say that we've already experienced his backstory since Generations established the Classics as Sonic in his youth.

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I think hes more than a hero. Sonic is a hero who really cares about the characters and has the ablity to forgive and forget. Hes got the biggest heart of the franchise and I dont want that to be taken away. The problem I have with brining back other characters to play as is that people have said they made Sonic look dull and boring. But Sonic isnt supposed to be dull and boring especially with everything he has done in the games.

 

If they bring more characters give Sonic more moves. That way hes equal to the other characters and he gets noticed.

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I think a common problem before was, as said, they seemed to be trying too hard to make each character top the last, and make one that was cooler, hipper and more badass, usually with some cliched gimmick. It was probably this that led to Sonic suffering the 'Mickey Mouse' effect, looking kinda bland comparatively, not to mention some characters also taking his defining personality traits, or having all his moves and then some.

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