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What do you think has worked & not worked in Sonic games?


Kyra
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Sorry for obscenely long title. Also sorry if something like this has already been asked, if so, please show me. I'm half past too impatient to search. XD No shooting please?

Ah... but yes, I want some serious opinions about this. What do you all think has worked in all the Sonic games that came out? This is including things from the spinoff games. Also, what hasn't worked? Again, from everything.

I'm asking 'cause I want to know what people in this forum think. I'm trying to develop an idea out of boredom, but because of the nature of said idea I kinda just wanna know what others think about this sort of thing. I haven't played enough of the games without being outwardly influenced to make a good decision myself. XD

Please, for the sake of everything wonderful, no fanboying. It makes the chao cry.

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I think what works is good...speed...levels. Thats the basis of sonic games and why most people love sonic I dont know about you but I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY AS A WEREHOG!

What does not work is guns never again will I ever play a sonic game with Guns.

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In before EVERYTHING BEFORE S3&K!!!

Which I think is total bull.

I think grinding, loops, pinball physics, badniks, rings, springs, pinball minigames and half-pipe special stages have all worked. I can't think of much more at the moment, but there's plenty more I know for sure.

Edited by Indigo Rush
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As for overarching mechanics go, everything introduced 1999-present day hasn't worked. Adventure had some cool bits in it, such as the third section of speed highway, sky deck, parts of lost world, some cool stuff. Unfortunately, it also brought with it those damn "Hot Wheels Track in the Sky" levels (First part of speed highway) that punish exploration, and crap like paving the levels wit boost pads.

Adventure 2 then brought the innovation of forcing you to play as the other characters. It also ruined their gameplay with poor design decisions.

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In before EVERYTHING BEFORE S3&K!!!

Which I think is total bull.

I think grinding, loops, pinball physics, badniks, rings, springs, pinball minigames and half-pipe special stages have all worked. I can't think of much more at the moment, but there's plenty more I know for sure.

I've seen the term "pinball physics" used before in another topic, but I don't know exactly what that means, can ya elaborate?

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To me, I think the Speed boost from Advance 2 has worked quite well. It was more like an extention to Sonic's speed and acceleration, and it worked along side the phisics of the game, making it easier to maintain it while going downhill, and made it harder when going uphill. It made a good boost that doesn't completely overshadow all of Sonic's other abilities, since you had to run at max speed for a couple of seconds in order to activate it, and decelerate to deactivate it. The Spin dash was still as useful as ever for getting a quick boost of speed, and it even made the speed pads useful also, since these allowed you to go into the boost automatically, and because of this, it made the design use the speed pads sparingly.

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I've seen the term "pinball physics" used before in another topic, but I don't know exactly what that means, can ya elaborate?

Pinball physics are mostly prominent in the classic games and the Advance series. Basically, whenever Sonic's rolling on the ground, he picks up speed going down a ramp, but going up a ramp, he slows down, whereas when he's running on foot, he goes down a ramp slower than when he runs.

Also, when Sonic jumps on a badnik, he bounces up a little if he's jumping from the same level said enemy is on. When Sonic is falling in ball mode from a high ledge, and strikes the enemy, he bounces up farther at a higher rate.

In short, pinball physics mean pinball physics. Whenever Sonic is rolling, he acts like a pinball. However in the recent titles, even in their 2D platforms, they fail to implement these physics. The closest we ever got was in the Adventure games, where Sonic rolling down a hill was faster than running.

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I'm gonna talk about what I like from the new games, because if I start with the old ones I won't shut up.

I think the things you could do with Sonic in SA2 were amazing. If you mastered the controls, you could be a wizard with Sonic far beyond average skill of play, and the more grind intensive levels like Final Rush really show it off. Spin dashing towards a gap and jumping at the last second was a fun way to use Sonic's speed. It also felt really good to pull off a nice trick with Sonic, and increased interactivity with the level, especially when figuring out A-ranks. Games after the introduction of grinding made it easier or confusing, but SA2 grinding was fun. Sonic Adventure games get a thumbs up.

I'm thinking of a few sections in Final Chase where Shadow can jump off a steep incline and past all these gravity pillars, those suicide jumps were so much fun. Any level where a character can freefall like that has been a lot of fun for me. We need more vertical in the modern games, because it's always been used to good effect.

The homing attack, because I'm sure it'll be mentioned. It's a little weak when used as a replacement for proper platforming, but it is necessary for killing enemies at high speeds. I wish we'd stop seeing the lines of enemies over a pit formula, where you're just expected to knock them down like dominoes one after another. The homing attack is good in doses and a nice platforming aid, but I don't like to see it abused. Because it's Sonic's primary attack move, that happens quite often. I suggest adding a few moves to Sonic, so the homing attack can take a backseat for once.

Edited by Badnikz
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Despite how much fun it was in Unleashed, the werehog definitely doesn't work.

One problem with how things are executed is that they tend to oppose one certain mechanics of the game.

Sonic's daytime stages were about high-speed action, whereas the werehog was the opposite in motion and was about combat. Of course, that was the point of the whole game storywise and gameplaywise, and they were both bland and lacking to begin with. But hey, that's my fault for expecting way too much from it, it has its charms.

For something to work the mechanics have to compliment each other instead of opposing one another. If you want combat for Sonic, you have to make the combat flow with how fast he runs in the stages. For example: Sonic is running at 200 mph, he sees a trio of enemies up ahead, he runs toward them faster homing attacks the first enemy and rebounds off to the second, dropkicks the second enemy and bounces off him to slam the third enemy with his foot. And he's doing this while still moving foward...

Okay, that was a bit much, but you see where I'm going. It's basically a more evolved form of the Pinball Mechanics people would bring up.

The older games had much to do with exploration than speed, right? If you say no, then you really don't know what the hell you're talking about. If Sonic was about speed from the beginning, then the Sonic games in the genesis games were moving pretty damn slow for a game that was about speed. Also, what the hell was the point in adding on a 10 minute time limit if that was the case? That and add on the fact that Super Sonic was many degrees faster than regular Sonic in the genesis era (NOW you can say it's about speed :P), and you'd see how wrong folks have been.

But on to the point, Sonic in the genesis was about going from point A to poing B in the 10 min time limit. But you aren't given 10 mins for nothing, as that amount of time allows you to explore every nook and cranny of the stage for item boxes, rings, switches, and special stage locations. With that in mind, exploration is something that has done the series well over the years, for better or worse.

Also, grinding does well in...something. I don't know what it's point was aside from being fun to do for some folks. Although too many rails makes the game seem rather boring.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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I personally find the hyper-fast, no-stop gameplay in Sonic Unleashed to be quite fun. It's not like the Genesis games, but it fits this new generation looking for more action and it still is fun. In a way, the Sonic series has become like the Resident Evil series, let me explain.

The original Resident Evil games were slow paced, survival horror games. You rarely had much ammo, and when you did, it was a reward for your skillful playing. The Resident Evil games played like this for over 3 consecutive games, until one game came and changed everything, Resident Evil 4. This game gave ammo at you every chance it got, and leaned towards a more actiony way of playing, full of quick time events when you stunned enemies and lots of ways to kill them. Fans of the series have had mixed feelings for this actiony playstyle, some seem to feel its the next step in the survival horror genre while others feel that it defeats the purpose entirely. Critics seem to enjoy the new games, however.

The original Sonic games were fast paced, but you only got speed as a reward for skillful playing. Every Sonic game since the original has played like this, until one game came that changed it all. Sonic Unleashed was released and instead of getting speed as a reward, it was given to you almost the entire game and was the basis of playing the game. There were lots of action sequences and QTEs along the way as well. Fans are split with this new style of play, some love it while others feel that the game shoving speed in your face defeats the purpose of physics and momentum platforming entirely. Critics seem to hate the new games though.

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Despite how much fun it was in Unleashed, the werehog definitely doesn't work.

One problem with how things are executed is that they tend to oppose one certain mechanics of the game.

Sonic's daytime stages were about high-speed action, whereas the werehog was the opposite in motion and was about combat. Of course, that was the point of the whole game storywise and gameplaywise, and they were both bland and lacking to begin with. But hey, that's my fault for expecting way too much from it, it has its charms.

For something to work the mechanics have to compliment each other instead of opposing one another. If you want combat for Sonic, you have to make the combat flow with how fast he runs in the stages. For example: Sonic is running at 200 mph, he sees a trio of enemies up ahead, he runs toward them faster homing attacks the first enemy and rebounds off to the second, dropkicks the second enemy and bounces off him to slam the third enemy with his foot. And he's doing this while still moving foward...

Okay, that was a bit much, but you see where I'm going. It's basically a more evolved form of the Pinball Mechanics people would bring up.

The older games had much to do with exploration than speed, right? If you say no, then you really don't know what the hell you're talking about. If Sonic was about speed from the beginning, then the Sonic games in the genesis games were moving pretty damn slow for a game that was about speed. Also, what the hell was the point in adding on a 10 minute time limit if that was the case? That and add on the fact that Super Sonic was many degrees faster than regular Sonic in the genesis era (NOW you can say it's about speed :P), and you'd see how wrong folks have been.

But on to the point, Sonic in the genesis was about going from point A to poing B in the 10 min time limit. But you aren't given 10 mins for nothing, as that amount of time allows you to explore every nook and cranny of the stage for item boxes, rings, switches, and special stage locations. With that in mind, exploration is something that has done the series well over the years, for better or worse.

Also, grinding does well in...something. I don't know what it's point was aside from being fun to do for some folks. Although too many rails makes the game seem rather boring.

Uhm, yeah, I thought they WERE about speed. xD I remember parts in those games where I just sat there in awe at how fast I was going. Uhm... Man, can't remember the name of the Zone, but it was in Sonic 2... it was the Zone where the nasty chemical water rose up, but I can't remember the Act. xD

I hear much about things gameplay-wise, but I'm also asking about the storyline as well, what's worked / hasn't worked storyline wise. Dialog excluded.

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What I think doesn't work are useless town stages. So worthless. Breaks up the flow of the action stages. That includes boring town missions.

Multiplayer that doesn't offer a race mode is another thing that doesn't work. It just probably won't be fun to anyone.

Werehog.

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I don't mind the town stages as long as they're more or less optional, and if not, have something to keep me occupied with before I start stages. Instead of making me go around town asking people where to find someone, why not have me cross platforms to get an item, or engauge myself in a mini-game perhaps? That would be fun and would make the town stages worthwhile, put side quests and unlockables in them as well for when you complete the game as well.

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I think that it'd be pretty cool if each level had a sort of "town section", where your level time would stop, you would be able to interact with people, explore a little bit more than usual, etc, that would be entirely optional. There would be side things for you to do in them that would unlock you artworks, medals, etc. This way fans of towns can be happy, and fans of hyper speed can be happy. In the level select/world map after you've completed the level you can choose between exploring the town or playing through the level normally, as well. This would stop you from having to "find" cutscenes after completing levels, like in SA1 and Unleashed.

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I don't get the hate for town stages. They aren't the most brilliantly designed pieces of gameplay I've played, but for the most part they're 100% optional in Unleashed. I remember a total of 2 times you actually needed to spent more than a minute or so in them. The adventure hubs that contain the levels are actually quite fun though, and needn't be shunned.

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I like how they did the rpg formula in SA. SA2- while I love the game, had its flaws, and it suffered for not keeping that method. It would have been nice to play through all of that by character select instead of character rotation. Sonic Unleashed did well/had a good formula, but I only have the PS2 version, and thus, as I didn't have the hubs like the PS3/xbox I can't say totally how it went, but it looked like it worked well.

Sonic and the Black Knight- I'm near the end, but anyway, so far it's worked. I've greatly enjoyed the game and I think I've had about as much fun as Unleashed if not more while playing it (because I hated those ring-time missions- ALL of them! DX ). My only problem is the sudden difficulty jump at certain points in the game. It's unexpected, and as a person who doesn't game all that often, it was like 'ARGH!!!! -headdesk-'.

I have some bitterness towards old-gen play-wise. I just can't handle it, and it's annoying that I can't figure stuff out, since I don't want to hate it. I did have fun with debug for Sonic 2 though.

(as for Werehog, perhaps think of it as an evolved Ristar (character gameplay), but not.)

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Uhm, yeah, I thought they WERE about speed. xD

Nope. Sonic was mainly a physics game than a speedy one during the genesis games. And then there's more emphasis on platforming and exploration. Speed is just icing on the cake during those days.

Since he started the Adventures the speed started becoming more of the focus to many folks, and that only became more prominent the faster he went.

I remember parts in those games where I just sat there in awe at how fast I was going. Uhm... Man, can't remember the name of the Zone, but it was in Sonic 2... it was the Zone where the nasty chemical water rose up, but I can't remember the Act. xD

Chemical Plant. Even then he was moving a lot slower than people make it out to be.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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I hate those hubs. (And the Werehog, to a lesser extent, but the Werehog's to be expected.)

Instead of continuing straight to the next level as fast as possible, the hubs slow the game down and break the flow. I like the approach of the storybook series instead of other modern games (especially Unleashed on the Wii. If there are going to be hubs, at least make them places where you can run around freely, like in the 360.). The storybook series' system of menus/maps works a lot better. And, in an extension of hubs, I hate the villages where you have to talk to people. That was just boring. Also, grinding. In Secret Rings, the Wii Remote was too responsive/not responsive enough and I kept jumping over the rails or in the wrong direction. And in the Wii version of Unleashed, there are very few moments when you have to use quickstep to change rails, but it's not very responsive.

Now what I like about it: speed. I don't care about pinball physics, about exploring, or about needing split-second platforming. Some reviews complain about the quick pace needed to keep up with the platforming (they want it slowed down) and then complain the game is too slow and needs to be sped up. I think it keeps it lively and keeps you on your toes. And running fast is fun. I've never played a game that can equal the amount of fun the daytime stages of Unleashed provide. (And now it's so with the Black Knight, too.)

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I can't say that silly "Chaos Homing Attack" from Sonic '06 worked well. I really hope to never seen that again.

Shadow's Hero and Dark forms were pretty cool Super Sonic-like abilities and they didn't break the flow of the game or anything.

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I think adding more and more new characters instead of developing current characters is not doing Sonic games any justice. If they stick to the current cast and expand on their stories more in upcoming games I think that would do wonders for it and maybe stop people hating on characters so much because they know so little about them.

Things that do work though are the beautiful level designs in some of the games even if they whizz by you can just see how beautiful they are whilst zipping around and it is quite lovely to see expansive landscapes to explore.

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The Goods: Sonic Unleashed, Grinding, Homing Attack, Boosting, most of the things before Sonic 3&K and Sonic CD.

The Bads: Sonic 06, Shadow, stupid-ass gimmicks, Rouge the Bat, Super Forms in Final Bosses, too much emphasis on the 3D Sonic scene which has only been justified in Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Adventure 2 and slightly Heroes so far, OMFGSRSBSNESS during Sonic's puberty stages at Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06 resulting in loss of the quirky cartoonish nature from previous games and overall reducing Eggman to mere comic relief after Sonic Adventure 2.

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What I like, and think has worked well, is that we're getting to see alot more of characters such as Amy Rose these days =)

As for what I dislike? I know alot of people will disagree with this, but I really wish Sega would just stop adding 'stories' to Sonic games (except the Sonic Chronicles series, because those are done well)

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There's a lot of stuff that does work. What didn't work was Shadow's vehicles in Shadow and 06. The 06 speed zones were pretty bad too, but I'd say the idea has been salvaged very well in Unleashed. I think a similar salvaging could work for the werehog; make it faster, add more variation to the enemies and platforming elements. Ideally, I'd like be able to do brawling combat with Sonic in daytime stages, but that could be difficult to implement.

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