Sonic Boom Screenshot Thread *page 6* "Don't Cross the Ender-Beams"

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

The point of the comparison was that a good deed does not necessarily waive away the right to criticize a character's faults in the same story. Is it a good thing that Tails took the hit for Sonic? Of course it is. But the proceeding question then is how is that even relevant to him being annoying in other instances of the story? It's not, especially when the point in contention we have right now actually has nothing to do with whether or not Tails is a good person or whether or not he was capable of sacrificing himself for Sonic.

 

Comparing Tails to the Eggman on that level would suggest either OOC selfish gain on Tails' part, or (possibly OOC)  genuine selfless-ness on Eggman's part.

 

That's like saying Optimus Prime's heroic sacrifices aren't worth anything just because Megatron puts his life on the line for whatever he wants, despite the motives differing severely.

[Indigo Rush]

Well it was a pretty bad example, Nepenthe. Tails' long-term motivations as a character also need to be taken account of.

 

Keep in mind that Tails hasn't acted like this before because such a situation hasn't happened in this capacity before. When new development opportunities arise to rub against the status-quo, characters are going to show their ugly side every now and then. It's probably just jarring to see Tails act like something that isn't a one-dimensional goody two-shoes, so I can understand where some people are coming from, I guess.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

 

Didn't say it was outside of character bounds. I said it was pissy. Thank you for agreeing?

Basically, what I'm saying is that it's not necessarily out of character and despite how it may not sit too well with fans, a good portion of it (albeit some was a bit BS) was legit.

[Vertekins]

Meh, Tails' portrayal in Adventure alone even without SA2 blows Colours-Lost World portrayal clean out of the water anyway.

 

But I think we're getting a bit off-topic so I'll just say that I am still pretty undecided about what I feel about this game and never have I had such indecisiveness regarding my feelings on a Sonic game. The feeling is pretty new to me.

[Nepenthe]

Comparing Tails to the Eggman on that level would suggest either OOC selfish gain on Tails' part, or (possibly OOC)  genuine selfless-ness on Eggman's part.

Actually, it suggests nothing of the sort. The analogy is much simpler than you're making it out to be: A good deed does not mean you are faultless or perfect.

 

Well it was a pretty bad example, Nepenthe. Tails' long-term motivations as a character also need to be taken account of.

 

Keep in mind that Tails hasn't acted like this before because such a situation hasn't happened in this capacity before. When new development opportunities arise to rub against the status-quo, characters are going to show their ugly side every now and then. It's probably just jarring to see Tails act like something that isn't a one-dimensional goody two-shoes, so I can understand where some people are coming from, I guess.

 

It's bad misconstruing my argument into Tails was being such an "asshole" to the extent that him saving Sonic even needed to be sarcastically mentioned as a retort in the first place, as if I'm completely unaware that Tails would do such a thing- especially when I said that in the post praising his Colors characterization- as well as misunderstanding the point of a deliberately exaggerated example of the ultimate point I wanted to make, but let's keep harping on Eggman's deeds.

 

And note: I didn't come to this opinion about Tails immediately. After watching the cutscenes, I initially liked pretty much everything about it, and my current opinion only came into being after I watched the whole story again in which I backtracked on my feelings in an actual topic on here discussing the characters' portrayals. So yeah, not sure where this suggestion that I was initially jarred by Tails not acting like a "one-dimensional goody two-shoes" is even coming from, and it's these kinds of suggestions that makes me pissy. Is it really that hard to believe someone wasn't as gung-ho for the writing as you were, or that they could change their opinion later down the line without being afraid of change?

[JAiRO]

Man, look at all these screenshots.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Actually, it suggests nothing of the sort. The analogy is much simpler than you're making it out to be: A good deed does not mean you are faultless or perfect.

And yet it comes off like that when you completely disregard Tails and Eggman's respective backgrounds like that. I'd say the selfless sacrifice merits more appreciation than the selfish, villain-desperate version.

[Indigo Rush]

 

It's bad misconstruing my argument into Tails was being such an "asshole" to the extent that him saving Sonic even needed to be sarcastically mentioned as a retort in the first place, as if I'm completely unaware that Tails would do such a thing- especially when I said that in the post praising his Colors characterization- as well as misunderstanding the point of a deliberately exaggerated example of the ultimate point I wanted to make, but let's keep harping on Eggman's deeds.

 

And note: I didn't come to this opinion about Tails immediately. After watching the cutscenes, I initially liked pretty much everything about it, and my current opinion only came into being after I watched the whole story again in which I backtracked on my feelings in an actual topic on here discussing the characters' portrayals. So yeah, not sure where this suggestion that I was initially jarred by Tails not acting like a "one-dimensional goody two-shoes" is even coming from, and it's these kinds of suggestions that makes me pissy. Is it really that hard to believe someone wasn't as gung-ho for the writing as you were, or that they could change their opinion later down the line without being afraid of change?

 

Actually, yes, I was suggesting that's what you were advocating. You have to excuse me, I don't do so well with processing my thoughts when I'm bloody livid.

 

So you have my genuine apologies for straw-manning you like that. But this is something we'll just have to agree-to-disagree on. I simply enjoy the direction the Tails is going, and I don't want to be misrepresented any more than I've misrepresented you.

 

I'm ready to move on and clear out.

 

 

(this entire exchange is going to be one of those eyesores I find in the morning that I wish I could undo)

[TrueBlue]

SLoW really just needed one extra scene between Eggman suggesting the team up and Tails calling out Sonic for agreeing to make it work. Tails even makes a joke in the former scene and doesn't raise any real complaints, which sorta undermines his criticisms later on. Sure, he's a kid and kids can be irrational, but it still stuck out.

 

Anyway, moving on. I'm glad Tails will still call Sonic out, that's a good thing.

[Celestia]

The Strawman Stadium

 

I mostly liked how Tails was handled in SLoW, but in retrospect I think they should have built on what made Tails annoyed in the first place: Sonic ignoring him in the Cacophonic Conch scene. It's a common sidekick trope to grow disillusioned with the hero for ignoring them, but I think it would make sense for Sonic and Tails. Mostly because Tails implied in Adventure that Sonic ignoring him in a common thing.

 

Anyway, the behind the scenes stuff today was an interesting watch. I'm gonna listen to that SEGABits podcast now, dunno if there's any new info in it...

 

...And I just rememberd this was the screenshot thread, lol

[Nepenthe]

And yet it comes off like that when you completely disregard Tails and Eggman's respective backgrounds like that. I'd say the selfless sacrifice merits more appreciation than the selfish, villain-desperate version.

 

You continue to miss the point that I deliberately made an exaggerated point in order to discredit another exaggerated point. Believe it or not, it is linguistically and logically possible for an analogy or a comparison to illustrate a point even if things being compared aren't one-to-one.

[SlickEvan]

Okay my personal opinion is that SA1 Tails blew all Tails out the water because of the development of him. In newer games he's just Sonics wingman so we don't see much of the development continue. *I know SA2 doesn't do any better in that regard* But the thing is that in newer games they kinda changed the brotherly ness while older ones didn't use more of it's other components. Colors up uses the "brothers who are really great friends" while adventure era uses "brother who looks up to his brother" each have there flaws but my personal gripe is that in LW they take the "really great friends" part further. Idk it's just they either didn't have enough time to properly write it out to develop him or they took the how would brothers who are great friends act? part a little far. This freaking phone jacks up what I want to say....

Boom. I'm loving it! I don't know why Knuckles was talking about food related stuff but you guy's smart humor Knuckles theory reassures me! And I liked the two seconds of hub we saw. Also looks like it's proven that those are indeed not fully auto run sections.

[TearForFear]

For the love of God I hope they don't morph Tails into an unlikable obnoxiously bratty half-pint. I haven't been entirely down with Tails' snark in recent main series games but I could tolerate it. I hope this series doesn't take that trait and blow it out of all proportion.

 

After thinking and re-thinking about this, I came up with a conclusion (and I hope I won't jinxs everything):

 

Sonic Boom (the cartoon at least) is humor and comedy based and it's directed to 8-11 years old audience.

Tails is one of the four main good guys who are supposed to appeal said the audience.

 

If Tails will be an unlikable brat, he'll probably kill the comedy and fail to appeal the audience.

 

So, I think this won't be the case at all.

 

 

At worst, Tails will probably play the role of the "only sane man" who's often exasperated by the antics of his friends (something like what Tenten does in the Naruto spin-off manga called Springtime of Youth)

 

 

Edit: and one more (feeble, I know) reason of why we shoudldn't worry about Tails.

 

Hand-drawn concept art is one thing...

 

...but the final product is another.

Even trying hard, I can't see a bratty obnoxious kid in Tails if he's advertised like this.

[Sami]

I think Tails' supposed "development" (or lack thereof) is one of the most frustrating things in the canon for me. Sonic Adventure presents us with a fairly straightforward but fitting coming of age story, in which he learns to think and act for himself rather than live in Sonic's shadow. Sonic Adventure 2 hits the rest button and offers the exact same story (albeit with less detail), and then every single other game up to Colors sets him back in square one again, but now without even bothering to develop him into an independent character. 

 

I like his characterization in Colors. It's established that he's very clearly the brains of the duo on all accounts, and while he no longer gets involved in the action personally, he's still the one telling Sonic what to do and keeping things under control, kind of like a commanding officer. He served as a great counterpart to Sonic, who was brash, overconfident, and quick to action. It's a tried and true dynamic, and it's simple enough that it lets the characters' individual personality traits make them memorable while still utilizing well known tropes - I would consider the relationship between Sonic and Tails in Colors very similar to that of Solid Snake and Otacon. 

 

Lost World doesn't capitalize on that though, in my opinion. The game's main conflict kicks off because Sonic did something stupid without listening to Tails while he was in the middle of a sentence. Then you get all of that nonsense about Tails getting jealous when it makes perfectly logical sense to have Eggman reprogram the machine, and it really doesn't help that the main cause of the argument was "why don't you trust me to reprogram Eggman's robot!?!?!?" when one of the cutscenes prior had him almost get himself killed reprogramming one of Eggman's robots, either. Their whole dynamic just feels so off in this game and Tails just comes off as unlikable and bratty. 

[Soniman]

Lost World doesn't capitalize on that though, in my opinion. The game's main conflict kicks off because Sonic did something stupid without listening to Tails while he was in the middle of a sentence.

 

Which is a genuine flaw with the character that doesn't go unpunished. It's not even about Sonic ignoring Tails more as Sonic being over confident in his abilities and thinking it was another run of the mill Eggman plot where "object of power" equals "bad things will happen".

 

Then you get all of that nonsense about Tails getting jealous when it makes perfectly logical sense to have Eggman reprogram the machine. It really doesn't help that the main cause of the argument was "why don't you trust me to reprogram Eggman's robot!?!?!?" when one of the cutscenes prior had him almost get himself killed reprogramming one of Eggman's robots. Their whole dynamic just feels so off in this game and Tails just comes off as unlikable and bratty.

 

I believe the "reprogramming" scene came AFTER the "trust" scene actually. And a bit after the former scene he's then kidnapped.

 

I just don't really get it personally. It takes a lot for a likable character in previous games to become instantly "unlikable" (I consider that a rather extreme term when judging a character) at the drop of a hat. Besides being mildly bratty in one scene, Tails still acts like Colors Tails, joking around with Sonic and what not. Im not saying it couldn't have written a lot better, but it makes Tails no where near "unlikable" imo.

[TearForFear]

Can we just continue this SLW!Tails discussion in one of the Lost World topics, and remember that this is the Screenshots Thread  pretty please?

 

Look what I found

 

Please notice the Sonic Scarecrow

[Sami]

Which is a genuine flaw with the character that doesn't go unpunished. It's not even about Sonic ignoring Tails more as Sonic being over confident in his abilities and thinking it was another run of the mill Eggman plot where "object of power" equals "bad things will happen".

 

 But this flaw didn't have any precedent. That's the biggest problem with it. Look at Colors, where Tails was telling Sonic to chill out and suggesting that Eggman might not have been up to anything threatening. Sonic doesn't believe it, but he rolls with it and gives Tails the benefit of the doubt because that's part of their relationship.

 

Of course, I'm not suggesting that there should be no exceptions to an all powerful rule or anything, but there should be some kind of reason for him to do what he did. When the Colonel tells Snake that "this is a sneaking mission", does Snake just shut off the codec mid sentence and go Rambo? What in this particular situation made it any different from any other time Tails was briefing Sonic on the best course of action? Why does he just randomly jump out, ignoring him completely?

 

 

I believe the "reprogramming" scene came AFTER the "trust" scene actually. And a bit after the former scene he's then kidnapped.

 

I just don't really get it personally. It takes a lot for a likable character in previous games to become instantly "unlikable" (I consider that a rather extreme term when judging a character) at the drop of a hat. Besides being mildly bratty in one scene, Tails still acts like Colors Tails, joking around with Sonic and what not. Im not saying it couldn't have written a lot better, but it makes Tails no where near "unlikable" imo.

Oh, alright then. Even so, he doesn't really try to legitimately talk things out or anything, and Sonic wasn't mistreating him in any way. 

 

It's not that I dislike him, but one of Lost Worlds many big problems is that the characters are marginalized at the expense of basic plot progression. Rather than writing the plot around the characters, the characters are written around the plot. Tails was just the one who suffered the most from this style of writing. 

 

It's so bizarre, too, because there's no reason to do something like that with a plot as simple as Lost World's. It's a plot-based narrative rather than a character-based one, yet the plot itself is so fundamentally simplistic that there's no real benefit to that.

[Voyant]

Wait let me get this straight...and tell me if I'm exaggerating...

 

but...

 

People rather have Tails remain simple cute and generic side kick that looks at Sonic with wide eyed spiraling shines yet still maintain some kind of self worth?

 

Do people know how 8 - 12 year old act nowadays? I'm sorry, but really they act pretty much nothing like how Tails does in Sonic Adventure. If they are going to appeal to kids in this show (and we must remember that that is aways the target demographic and that we are second on the list us old fans that is) they need to make him relateble and similar to how cartoons on CN are portrayed. Kids look up to their role models now from afar; they smart mouth you, but still pick up all the traits that you do. Its like having tsundere in kid form.

 

My little brothers are terribly sarcastic and I think its just mostly do to the cartoons that they watch today which usual use a lot of smart remarks and sarcastic tones that kids carry on to their regular lives. Tails being a little bratty and smart mouthed totally fits...we have to remember that Sonic series is a franchises that changes with the times.

 

***

 

We need to look at things objectively when we look at Sonic do to this fact, take out our personal feelings from the matter, and try to be realistic when making judgements because just like every Generation they always complain about the generations before. What some of the older fans are doing is just that. We were the Generation that did the whole saggy pants thing, but now we are complaining that kids were their pants way too tight...I find it hilarious because it seems like people are doing it and not realizing.

 

I catch myself all the time with this and I make sure to change my thinking. How the characters are portrayed aren't targeted at us older fans and we need to make sure to remember that for the show and future games.

 

Just my 00.02$ 

[Sami]

People rather have Tails remain simple cute and generic side kick that looks at Sonic with wide eyed spiraling shines yet still maintain some kind of self worth?

 

Who's saying this?

[Voyant]

Who's saying this?

 

I'm just exaggerating (sorry I tend to do this sometimes). My main point is that we need to remember that we need to take a step back and look at things from a wider angle. I just don't think people are doing this enough.

 

As we get older we get more set in our ways of thinking, but I believe his is a bad thing when looking at topics objectively.

[Indigo Rush]

People rather have Tails remain simple cute and generic side kick that looks at Sonic with wide eyed spiraling shines yet still maintain some kind of self worth?

It certainly seems like it, but it really isn't. People are just put off by the sudden shift in attitude. It comes across as unbalanced, even though I'd argue against that. But as others have said, that's for another topic.

Either way, we haven't seen a spiteful Tails before. But trust me, no one here wants Tails to revert to a one-dimensional piece of cardboard. (Not to say he didn't have development in SA1 and SA2, but it kind of disappeared since then, and never really existed prior).

[Diogenes]

Then you get all of that nonsense about Tails getting jealous when it makes perfectly logical sense to have Eggman reprogram the machine

You're saying it makes perfectly logical sense to trust Eggman. The bad guy. Who actually was just using them all along. Honestly, one of the story's strengths is that there's fair logic on both sides of the issue; there are reasons for and against trusting Eggman, so Sonic and Tails both have justifiable reasons (or at least believable ones, considering the emotional reasons) for doing what they did.

When the Colonel tells Snake that "this is a sneaking mission", does Snake just shut off the codec mid sentence and go Rambo?

...Sonic isn't Snake. I mean, comparing Sonic and Tails to Snake and Otacon, I can see the similarity, but Sonic is still more of an impulsive, flippant character than Snake.

What in this particular situation made it any different from any other time Tails was briefing Sonic on the best course of action? Why does he just randomly jump out, ignoring him completely?

He figured he knew what was going on, saw an opening, and figured he could deal with things in one fell swoop. And the reason why he never really acted like this before...is because he kinda was written to always be right before. To make him a more interesting character, they wrote him with some flaws; more impulsiveness (and it not just working out for him because he's the hero), less than perfect trust in Tails, less than perfect optimism and confidence (after he fucks up), etc.

[Voyant]

Either way, we haven't seen a spiteful Tails before. But trust me, no one here wants Tails to revert to a one-dimensional piece of cardboard. (Not to say he didn't have development in SA1 and SA2, but it kind of disappeared since then, and never really existed prior).

 

I really glad I'm not 100% right about my post before. I could feel the volcano of WTF ARE YOU SERIOUS burning in my stomach.

 

Closed minded thinking needs to be left at the door right now, we are now entering a entirely new era...hell I can already fucking see "Modern Fans" turning into "Hardcore Retro Fans" that complain that Sonic needs to fat again and the good times are all behind us.

 

Its harsh yes, but I'm not one to sugar coat things especially when I can see a large train wreck of shit...looooommiing over the horizon.

[Kuzu]

And once again, people are generalizing opinions. Man I love how this place never changes :\

 

 

Why is it that people can't say they have a problem with Lost World's writing without being accused of "wanting the characters to be boring" or some other straw man thrown our way. Some people just don't like it, and have given detailed reasons on why. If people are allowed to like something, why can't people just simply dislike it? And then everyone wonders why the members on here can be so bitter and somewhat confrontational at times. Jeez.

 

 

I don't like what Lost World did with Tails, plain and simple. No, this isn't saying that he's this unlikable abomination of his former self, I just simply do not like the way he was written. He comes off as inconsistent and bratty, and in the end the story presents him as being in the right despite his attitude. So no, I do hope the writers have enough tact to not fall into this trap again when it comes to Tails in the future.

 

Now can we go back to talking about screenshots, please?

[Sami]

You're saying it makes perfectly logical sense to trust Eggman. The bad guy. Who actually was just using them all along. Honestly, one of the story's strengths is that there's fair logic on both sides of the issue; there are reasons for and against trusting Eggman, so Sonic and Tails both have justifiable reasons (or at least believable ones, considering the emotional reasons) for doing what they did.

What other choice did they have? Sonic merely assumed that Eggman was the only one who could reprogram the machine. Even in the first cutscene where the trust issue is brought up it comes completely out of nowhere.

"YOU DON'T TRUST ME! YOU TRUST EGGMAN MORE!"

"Wh-!?"

Tails didn't actually mention that he had the know-how to shut the thing off and it's common sense that the person with the most expertise would be the one who built it.

...Sonic isn't Snake. I mean, comparing Sonic and Tails to Snake and Otacon, I can see the similarity, but Sonic is still more of an impulsive, flippant character than Snake.

Well, yes, but the point still stands. It's well established that the characters share a similar dynamic, and there's absolutely no reason for Sonic to just blatantly ignore him like that. It's not even a case of him mishearing - he literally finishes his sentence for him after he shouts "Sonic, wait!" Why?

He figured he knew what was going on, saw an opening, and figured he could deal with things in one fell swoop. And the reason why he never really acted like this before...is because he kinda was written to always be right before. To make him a more interesting character, they wrote him with some flaws; more impulsiveness (and it not just working out for him because he's the hero), less than perfect trust in Tails, less than perfect optimism and confidence (after he fucks up), etc.

But the delivery of all of that is so flat. There's no reason for him to simply wait two seconds for Tails to finish his sentence because Tails has always been the one to come up with the plans anyway. It's not good writing when this pivotal character flaw comes off as completely unnecessary and jarring. I'd be more forgiving of it if there was at least a little more detail about why he acted fast, like being seen by Eggman prompting a more immediate response or something. As it is, Lost World's entire script comes off as incredibly forced and Tails' character suffers for it.