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Something worries me....


Rey Skywalker-Ren

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..... Luigi really IS just Mario with a Flutter Jump, and Diddy Kong really IS just Donkey Kong with cartwheels. And I don't want that. I want to play with Luigi and Diddy Kong. In all of those acclaimed games that I've played, I don't really bother with using different characters anymore because the meager stat differentials don't usually result in a significantly-different play through of the game. So I ask "what's the point?" I'm not advocating for Genre Roulette either. I really am just bored of the platforming cliche' that your character has to literally be the same character as the main one but with a few lines of code attached or taken off to give them a slightly-different jump height. No new levels, no different levels, no well-developed powers being used in uniquely interesting ways, no nothing. In this day and age, it's a waste of time to me, or at the very least just makes the genre feel even more stagnant as hell. And I feel it really takes the piss when a game like Mario Galaxy pits you through all of these hard challenges that suck hours out of your life, and your reward for killing yourself? Do it all over again with Green Mario yay! :|

Edited by Nepenthe
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Using your argument I bolded is like saying Luigi is just Mario with a flutter-jump

Aside from the higher jump in general and the lower traction, that's exactly the case, tho'. They share the exact same moves and can use every power up basically the same, etc. Yes the stats and jumping abilities are different, but that's about it. That's enough to justify the option to choose different characters of course--each level of 3D World is designed so you can get through it as any character (though one is a bit hard to do since you have to bounce on some cannonballs at one point, and it's hard to time with Peach's hover...) BUT different characters can make certain levels easier. But for something like Sonic where the cast has a wide variety of superpowers, I think wanting something different is completely reasonable.

 

When it comes down to it, it's already looking like the core four in Boom will offer different experiences, which is great! Compared to Mario where the characters generally just all do the same thing, Boom is emphasizing how each character can interact with the environment in different ways, it's an oddly Classic Sonic-feeling idea but not really? Now that I think about it, I'm interested in seeing if characters have certain paths that they can go on that are really big instead of just being quick shortcuts...

 

Back in the main series, I would love to see what Nepenthe's suggesting. Sure give the characters different "stats" in terms of movement and some shared moves (spin jump, maybe spindash, the usual), but why not take advantage of their different skills for unique levels designed around each character's abilities? At least offer some bonus levels specifically built around certain characters.

 

Also I don't see how "change the level geometry for each character" = genre roulette. Just make the character all play like a platformer where you gotta go fast and  destroy robots, boom, there we go. Game design isn't easy , I know, but I think it's a logical solution.

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..... Luigi really IS just Mario with a Flutter Jump, and Diddy Kong really IS just Donkey Kong with cartwheels. And I don't want that. I want to play with Luigi and Diddy Kong. In all of those acclaimed games that I've played, I don't really bother with using different characters anymore because the meager stat differentials don't usually result in a significantly-different play through of the game. So I ask "what's the point?" I'm not advocating for Genre Roulette either. I really am just bored of the platforming cliche' that your character has to literally be the same character as the main one but with a few lines of code attached or taken off to give them a slightly-different jump height. No new levels, no different levels, no well-developed powers being used in uniquely interesting ways, no nothing. In this day and age, it's a waste of time to me, or at the very least just makes the genre feel even more stagnant as hell. And I feel it really takes the piss when a game like Mario Galaxy pits you through all of these hard challenges that suck hours out of your life, and your reward for killing yourself? Do it all over again with Green Mario yay! :|

 

I don't even what else I could add to this conversation then.  That way of handling multiple characters in platforming games has always been, IMO, the right way of going about it.  I remember you saying in the wanted a "middle ground".  Well what would that middle ground entail exactly?  What is, in your opinion, the way to go about handling multiple characters without straying into Genre Roulette territory?

 

 

When it comes down to it, it's already looking like the core four in Boom will offer different experiences, which is great! Compared to Mario where the characters generally just all do the same thing, Boom is emphasizing how each character can interact with the environment in different ways, it's an oddly Classic Sonic-feeling idea but not really? Now that I think about it, I'm interested in seeing if characters have certain paths that they can go on that are really big instead of just being quick shortcuts...

 

Back in the main series, I would love to see what Nepenthe's suggesting. Sure give the characters different "stats" in terms of movement and some shared moves (spin jump, maybe spindash, the usual), but why not take advantage of their different skills for unique levels designed around each character's abilities? At least offer some bonus levels specifically built around certain characters.

 

Also I don't see how "change the level geometry for each character" = genre roulette. Just make the character all play like a platformer where you gotta go fast and  destroy robots, boom, there we go. Game design isn't easy , I know, but I think it's a logical solution.

 

And those are all thing I want to see.  I want to see character specific routes that take advantage of each character abilities.  I want each character to have different stats for running, jumping, swimming, etc to justify each character's existence.  I never said I didn't.  I just don't want it to get to the point each character is literally a different game altogether like in the Adventure duology.

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I don't even what else I could add to this conversation then.  That way of handling multiple characters in platforming games has always been, IMO, the right way of going about it.  I remember you saying in the wanted a "middle ground".  Well what would that middle ground entail exactly?  What is, in your opinion, the way to go about handling multiple characters without straying into Genre Roulette territory?

 

Ask questions about your characters and locations. Get a feel for who your cast actually is, what they're good at, and how they would go about solving the same problem, if at all, as your main character. And realize that living worlds aren't made of the same tiles until an arbitrary border. Biomes and man-made structures change constantly depending upon the altitude and distanced traveled, which should be even more obvious to the audience when you have characters that have superhuman physicality in terms of moving from place to place.

 

Specifically, if I were tasked with putting the "Sonic+" version of Knuckles' in a game, I'd start from thus: His most notable movement-based abilities are gliding, digging, and climbing, mainly because he's a treasure hunter who's really knowledgeable about geography and shit. He's also an introverted little critter and does very well working alone, although he tends to meet up with people later in the conflict. Knowing this, I would decide immediately that he needs different levels than Sonic because A.) Why would they always be in the same area at the same time? B.) Knuckles does not travel the same way and speed Sonic travels. Even on the off chance that they're in the same area at the same time before the climax, the likelihood of them going along the same path is even more infinitesimal.

 

Following from that, I remember that Knuckles is really good at gliding, digging, and climbing. That means he's going to be in areas that focus on verticality, which allows him to use his climbing as well as prevent his glide from being a broken, level-skipping mess. For his digging, he's going to need materials that he can feasibly go through. So start him in a mountainous region to contrast against Sonic's plains and jungle-running. If he's in a city, allow him to access to the sewer systems. Let him worm his way through ventilation or piping systems on Eggman's ships. Establish recurring patterns of textures that are broken by unique ones that indicate to the player you can dig there in places, and reward that with a unique area to explore, or bonus level or collectible, or a story point. 

 

It's just plain old context. You don't have to change the entire gameplay style to make a character worth playing as.

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Ask questions about your characters and locations. Get a feel for who your cast actually is, what they're good at, and how they would go about solving the same problem, if at all, as your main character. And realize that living worlds aren't made of the same tiles until an arbitrary border. Biomes and man-made structures change constantly depending upon the altitude and distanced traveled, which should be even more obvious to the audience when you have characters that have superhuman physicality in terms of moving from place to place.

 

Specifically, if I were tasked with putting the "Sonic+" version of Knuckles' in a game, I'd start from thus: His most notable movement-based abilities are gliding, digging, and climbing, mainly because he's a treasure hunter who's really knowledgeable about geography and shit. He's also an introverted little critter and does very well working alone, although he tends to meet up with people later in the conflict. Knowing this, I would decide immediately that he needs different levels than Sonic because A.) Why would they always be in the same area at the same time? B.) Knuckles does not travel the same way and speed Sonic travels. Even on the off chance that they're in the same area at the same time before the climax, the likelihood of them going along the same path is even more infinitesimal.

 

Following from that, I remember that Knuckles is really good at gliding, digging, and climbing. That means he's going to be in areas that focus on verticality, which allows him to use his climbing as well as prevent his glide from being a broken, level-skipping mess. For his digging, he's going to need materials that he can feasibly go through. So start him in a mountainous region to contrast against Sonic's plains and jungle-running. If he's in a city, allow him to access to the sewer systems. Let him worm his way through ventilation or piping systems on Eggman's ships. Establish recurring patterns of textures that are broken by unique ones that indicate to the player you can dig there in places, and reward that with a unique area to explore, or bonus level or collectible, or a story point. 

 

It's just plain old context. You don't have to change the entire gameplay style to make a character worth playing as.

 

I think I'm starting to see we're you're getting at.  If the levels are open and 3-D then they really shouldn't be bound to just having only one possible exit.  Having different possible exits for different character that only they could access with their unique abilities does sound like a concept I could get behind.  One of the few things I liked about the Shadow the Hedgehog game was being able to choose between two or three level to travel to next, only instead of tying them down to complete some repetitive mission, make it so that the exit you choose sends you to a different level.

 

An example I've though up: let's say hypothetical Sonic 4 Ep. 1 was in 3D, had multiple characters, and was a good game in general.  Each character would start their campaign in Splash Hill Zone but end up in different Zone for their next level.  Sonic would take the "normal" speedy route to Casino Street Zone, Knuckles being able to dig and find lower routes would go to Lost Labyrinth Zone, and Tails being able to fly would be able to spot the hidden Mad Gear Zone and take the route to find it.

 

^Is something like that what you're getting at? Because that is a concept I would like to see in the games!  One of the things I didn't like about S3K and the Advance trilogy was travel through the zones in the same order.  Something along the lines of Adventure 1 is what I'd like to see.  In story mode, the characters only travel through the Zones as their story requires but can access the other non-story related zones after beating their respective campaigns.  Apparently 06 was going to do this before it was rushed to the market.

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Exactly. Utilize different character's personalities and abilities to cater specific levels as well as design challenges towards them. Give them unique gimmicks to take advantage of both for fun's sake and for variation's sake. Let Sonic snowboard around places other characters wouldn't. Let Shadow use aerial vehicles. Let Amy take more desireable city and theme-park driven routes. We really could be doing a whole lot more in that platforming genre by this point just in terms of the way a game is designed than simply aping the same kind of bare-bones multiple character design and linear level-progression they were doing in the 80s and early 90s.

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That actually is a good way of differentiating Shadow and probably Rouge from Sonic. Shadow's willing to use other means to achieve his goals if he has to. Riding a vehicle may be slower than his normal running, but it might be more useful for its other advantages.

 

I can't see them bringing vehicles or guns back in a future Sonic game unless Fang is playable, though. I just can't see it because people hated that aspect so much of Shadow/06 even though I don't think it was really that bad. 06 had some good concepts, people just hate anything to do with it because they were rushed to get it out and it turned into a horrible mess.

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Exactly. Utilize different character's personalities and abilities to cater specific levels as well as design challenges towards them. Give them unique gimmicks to take advantage of both for fun's sake and for variation's sake. Let Sonic snowboard around places other characters wouldn't. Let Shadow use aerial vehicles. Let Amy take more desirable city and theme-park driven routes. We really could be doing a whole lot more in that platforming genre by this point just in terms of the way a game is designed than simply aping the same kind of bare-bones multiple character design and linear level-progression they were doing in the 80s and early 90s.

 

I agree with you on all but the bolded part.  I think Shadow's Chaos Powers would be more than enough to make him distinct from Sonic and the other "Speed" type characters.  I've never been a fan of Shadow using vehicles, they always seem to break the flow too much.  MAYBE if they were programmed better, but I'd have to see to believe it.  I wouldn't mind bringing back the Seafox from Triple Trouble and Tails Adventure for Tails to use.  Vehicles seem to be more up Tails' alley.

 

While we're on the subject of distinguishing Sonic characters a much as possible and since '06 has been brought up, one of the scrapped concepts from 06 I'd like to see brought back is the more Rings Sonic collects, the faster he gets concept.  Let's say, a 10% increase in his max speed for every 20 Rings he collects maxing out at 200 rings.  For Tails, instead of increasing his land speed, collecting rings would increase his flight speed and the duration of how long he can fly, similar to what happens every time he collects a Chaos Emerald in Tails' Adventure.  For Knuckles, more rings would equal more strength. Say he could only smash Wooden containers at first, but after collecting 50 rings he can break Steel containers and after 100 rings he can smash Black containers.  For Shadow collecting rings would increase the strength of his Chaos Powers, such as his Chaos Blast being more powerful and gaining a wider radius.  Just a thought.

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But overall, I don't see anything wrong with Sonic being "basic," because his speed-based abilities are his and his alone.

making him too simple in a game with 4 playable friends means that all eyes on going to be on the friends. Fuck Sonic its all about his friends. co-op is main focues in the game so im not going to be able to play as Sonic alone to the end. I will need his cooler and better friends to help me out which I hate so much. I play a Sonic game to play with Sonic all the way to the end and not to be force to play as his friends. why play with Sonic when you can play with Sonic with flying and lasers?? or Sonic with gliding and climbing?? or Sonic with hammer and ninja ablities??

 

Give Sonic more ablities other than fucking running and homing attack goddamn it! give him wisps! something his friends can never take from him. I mean i dont wanna sound weird but thinking about it makes me want to cry because this is the very thing I am afraid of but this is something people love to bash me for. I hope it isnt that with this game but I am very worried.

 

i dont hate Sonics friends. im sick and tired of people going around saying i do. Im just not ready for them to be playable! is that so wrong?!

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I'm ready for them to be playable. And by the look's of things, all four are outfitted with unique arsenals of abilities that will entice me to play as all of them balanced and equally.biggrin.png

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they all look like they can run the same speeds and everyone but Sonic can have combat ablities. its not fair to Sonic.

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they all look like they can run the same speeds and everyone but Sonic can have combat ablities. its not fair to Sonic.

 

Maybe those sequences are scripted, we don't know much information about the game itself and if you see the clip where Amy used her hammer in the trailer, you can see Sonic doing a double roundhouse kick on an enemy as well.

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Most of the alternate characters in 06 were pretty rotten, even more so that the main cast, exempt for Blaze, who had abilities that kind of fixed a few of the game's more prevalent problems (so of course you play as her twice in the whole game) and Rouge, who while not really any fun, allowed you to just glide to the end of whatever you were doing.

I've always though it was funny that you don't finish flame core as knuckles normally, because if you glitch him through the wall to skip switching back he's actually very suited to the last room, though this interaction is probably unintentional.

But as for this game, I suspect being so "lacking", for want of a better term, is going to wind up being a blessing in disguise, because really, the stuff Amy and Knuckles are doing in the trailer speak of what I think I'll call "platforming procedural" after the police procedural television genre, where each time the player is using an ability that is mechanically complex, they really only ever use the ability in the same way because that same complexity pigeon holes the ability into a very specific context. For a sonic related example, recall the speed formation whirlwind ability or the power formation glide ability seen in Sonic Heroes. I suspect pole swinging is going to fall into this category of mine, and if they put it in this game again, grinding as well because when platformers grind it always goes the same way no matter who made the game.

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making him too simple in a game with 4 playable friends means that all eyes on going to be on the friends. Fuck Sonic its all about his friends. co-op is main focues in the game so im not going to be able to play as Sonic alone to the end. I will need his cooler and better friends to help me out which I hate so much. I play a Sonic game to play with Sonic all the way to the end and not to be force to play as his friends. why play with Sonic when you can play with Sonic with flying and lasers?? or Sonic with gliding and climbing?? or Sonic with hammer and ninja ablities??

 

Give Sonic more ablities other than fucking running and homing attack goddamn it! give him wisps! something his friends can never take from him. I mean i dont wanna sound weird but thinking about it makes me want to cry because this is the very thing I am afraid of but this is something people love to bash me for. I hope it isnt that with this game but I am very worried.

 

i dont hate Sonics friends. im sick and tired of people going around saying i do. Im just not ready for them to be playable! is that so wrong?!

 

Running as fast as he does on water and vertical surfaces, as well as Homing Attacking, tricking, stomping, and the other things he can do, are all things that Sonic tends to do on his own or at least significantly better than the competition. He- like everyone else in this game- will have enemies and obstacles only he is suited for handling, as was the case in Heroes. The fact that Knuckles has legs and arms, thus he can run as well as punch things, doesn't inherently make him more special than the guy running 700 mph because the fact is that A.) Running 700 mph is impressive in its own right, and B.) Knuckles cannot do that.

 

Regardless of what either character can't do, both are fun in their own right for what they can do; Sonic doesn't need to be loaded with abilities (especially the dis-gross-ting Wisps) to be "special." This is a sentiment that only serves to devalue Sonic as a gameplay concept- the idea that his basic abilities are somehow not "good enough" unless he can do everything. Bollocks! His speed is fun! The Daytime stages in Unleashed are some of the most unbridled joy I've ever had out of this godforsaken series and all he does is run from point A to point B! I don't need flying or breaking things to be inserted in the middle of that to get in the way of the sheer joy of running really freaking fast on every possible surface. Sonic is a really cool option just as he is and I'm surprised that you- as big of a Sonic fan as you are- don't see that in him.

 

And frankly, I'm ready for other characters to be playable. I've literally been waiting for about seven years now. Besides, if you're so concerned about the very fact that others are coming back into the picture, you can ignore Boom as I imagine the SegaSonic games will continue their character-less direction.

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What exactly is stopping you from playing as Sonic as you please anyway?

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What exactly is stopping you from playing as Sonic as you please anyway?
It's been confirmed that certain parts of the game require certain characters (also being in Japan will stop her from playing the game at all). But frankly, I don't see what on Earth the big deal is. Sonic is the fastest character. This has been confirmed interviews if it wasn't obvious enough already. You're judging this off of a few brief seconds of the "warp speed" gameplay of which we know nothing about. Basics movement and movement in combat is definitely fastest as Sonic. He's the only one able to use the homing attack (a means of movement as well as attack), spindash and run on water. Watch the trailer closely and you'll see he's the only one who can use glowing blue objects (such as ramps). Everyone can do different things in this game. The entire point of it is that it's character-driven. Why do you have a massive problem with other characters being playable? They can do things Sonic can't do, and likewise he can do things they can't do.
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It's been confirmed that certain parts of the game require certain characters (also being in Japan will stop her from playing the game at all). 

But her profile states she's currently living in the US.

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But her profile states she's currently living in the US.

The remark was an aside and not serious.
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I also recall one our more of her previous posts indicating her location in the US as well.

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i really to live in the us, i have been living there since 2008. so its not long time but still. so i can play the Sonic Boom.

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Running as fast as he does on water and vertical surfaces, as well as Homing Attacking, tricking, stomping, and the other things he can do, are all things that Sonic tends to do on his own or at least significantly better than the competition. He- like everyone else in this game- will have enemies and obstacles only he is suited for handling, as was the case in Heroes. The fact that Knuckles has legs and arms, thus he can run as well as punch things, doesn't inherently make him more special than the guy running 700 mph because the fact is that A.) Running 700 mph is impressive in its own right, and B.) Knuckles cannot do that.

 

Regardless of what either character can't do, both are fun in their own right for what they can do; Sonic doesn't need to be loaded with abilities (especially the dis-gross-ting Wisps) to be "special." This is a sentiment that only serves to devalue Sonic as a gameplay concept- the idea that his basic abilities are somehow not "good enough" unless he can do everything. Bollocks! His speed is fun! The Daytime stages in Unleashed are some of the most unbridled joy I've ever had out of this godforsaken series and all he does is run from point A to point B! I don't need flying or breaking things to be inserted in the middle of that to get in the way of the sheer joy of running really freaking fast on every possible surface. Sonic is a really cool option just as he is and I'm surprised that you- as big of a Sonic fan as you are- don't see that in him.

 

And frankly, I'm ready for other characters to be playable. I've literally been waiting for about seven years now. Besides, if you're so concerned about the very fact that others are coming back into the picture, you can ignore Boom as I imagine the SegaSonic games will continue their character-less direction.

 

 

I had fun with Sonic speed in Sonic Unleashed. The reason i think its a perfect game is because Sonic is showed to this full poetental. it showed two sides of him. The fighting side and the acrobatic side. During the day, Sonic is really fast and has his boost which makes the game fun along with his other moves. At night, Sonic uses his fighting skills to help him.

 

But it was a Sonic only game and I got to see Sonic at his best because there was no one to be a "better Sonic". Sonic Boom we know is very very very focus on co-op so speed might not mean a thing in this game and it seems like you be force to play as "better Sonic" and it makes Sonic look dull compare to them. Why just have speed and spindash when you can run like Sonic and fly/glide/swing hammer (which i have a problem with Amy being the acrobat of the group but im not going to get into) I hate when no one understands why i am upset and try to say I hate everyone that isnt Sonic. thats not true.

 

Its like Im not allow to be concern for Sonic and everyone gets angry when i dont want "better Sonic" characters making him dull. its only one girls opinion.

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Here's the problem as I see it: if characters are to become playable again, they have to stand apart from Sonic's playstyle, not with it.

 

In a way, I agree with you Chan. If we are to have the secondary characters playable alongside Sonic, then I don't want it to be like the classics (3&K in particular here), where they had the same speed but had better exclusive abilities than the blue guy, making them 'better Sonics'; the elemental shields' jump attacks may rock, but they didn't stack up to flight or wall climbing. This represents what I think Chan is afraid of -- that Sonic will get the worst moveset and not be different enough to be a viable playstyle. 

 

However, I don't think this will be the case with Boom. Sonic has been clearly defined in the last few years of SEGASonic as faster than his friends, and I don't think BRB will change this -- it's likely that the team can run at the same speed for a short time through the use of a co-op gimmick, but not indefinitely. Everyone seems to have their own role here: Sonic is speed, Tails is range, Knux is power and Amy is Acrobatics, so I don't think you have to be concerned about Boom.

 

Personally, I've been ready for multiple playable characters since Colours. But not as in 3&K where they're just Sonic, but with one new ability and different jump heights. I'd prefer SA 1-like variety, where every character handled differently enough so they couldn't be compared to one another.

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in Sonic only game  Sonic was speed and a acrobat and strong! He was everything he couldnt be with others around

 

I like Sonic 3 and Knuckles but its not my favorite because the better Sonics were the one who got it and they can also go super!!!! and hyper!!!

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in Sonic only game  Sonic was speed and a acrobat and strong! He was everything he couldnt be with others around

Even with others around, he can still be all that and a bag of chips.

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