Sonic 4 thread

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Ah, you weren't around when Ken Balough was still working for SEGA.

 

Hilarious times.

i never heard of him. i joined Sonic forums not too long ago so i wasnt aware of whats hot and whats not

[ElectricAngel]

Let me give my thoughts on Sonic 4. I first played the game when I was really getting into the Sonic games. Having played mostly modern games I thought I should try something "classic" and seeing as Sonic 4 was at the time the most recent one, I gave it a go. I'm not gonna lie, I loved the game. I would play it for hours on end for weeks until I got tired of it. I'm not sure why, but the physics and level design didn't seem as bad as people made it out to be. 

 

However, after that my interest in the genesis games grew as Sonic 4 was advertised as a true successor to those games. Once I played the classics, I finally saw why people were complaining. I really enjoyed the classics but still liked Sonic 4 enough to play it every now and then. I agree that it's not deemed as being a sequel to Sonic 3. It honestly felt as if it was a reboot of the classics instead. I was still looking forward to Episode II however because of the cliffhanger ending.

 

After all the hype and excitement for Episode II, I bought the game off Steam as soon as I could and... I was disappointed. I didn't find the levels as fun, even though they mostly had original ideas. The boss fights were fun however, especially the Metal Sonic ones. But overall I didn't enjoy it as much as Episode I. And I think that's because of how disappointing of a sequel it was. 

 

Although they added more of a story, it still felt incomplete because after getting all Chaos Emeralds, the ending didn't change and it was very unsatisfying just seeing Sonic and Tails slowly descend to Earth. We never saw what happened to Eggman or Metal Sonic. I heard there were some in-game files with a to be continued and a sound of Metal Sonic, so I guess a sequel was planned but never saw the light of day. That might explain why exactly I didn't enjoy it much. It didn't end the way it was supposed to. 

 

Once I had played Episode II, I went back to Episode I and my thoughts on it changed a lot from the last time I had played it. It felt really strange with the way the physics worked and I didn't find the levels as enjoyable as before. I then started playing the classic genesis titles and found more enjoyment out of those.

 

So, me and Sonic 4 had a strange relationship. I'm not sure what happened but my thoughts went from "This is fantastic!" the first time I played it, to "Eh, it's alright." a few years later. I think it's because by that time I had experience with the genesis titles and as a sequel and "true successor" to those, it felt like not much effort was put into it. I mean, we didn't even get all the features for Episode II. The physics didn't feel like genesis, it just felt like they added more weight to Sonic. And we never got that Windows Phone and Xbox 360 cross-play we were promised. It doesn't bug me since I don't own a Windows Phone and don't have the game on the 360, but they advertised it as a big thing and I bet those who actually wanted that feature were disappointed. 

[The Tenth Doctor]

I enjoy Sonic 4 enough. It's interesting to hear you grew up with these ones. Never thought of it myself. Liked Episode 1 (apart from the last level, it infuriated me) and Episode 2 was really fun. Episode 2 was like a Sonic Advance 3 homage to me. They had problems (Episode 1 looked plasticy and the final boss rush annoyed me) but overall, they could have been worse. Though, please don't call Advance Shitty. I grew up with them myself, they hold a special place in my heart.

[SlickEvan]

It's called Sonic 4, marketed as "Sonic 4 as you truly imagined it," at one point called "Project Needlemouse" and is always referred to as the "crucial first step" to returning Sonic to his roots.

 

There's no way you can't interpret that as an attempt at making a sequel to Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Not saying they treated it as such (WHY would you put the sequel to the most important line of games in your star franchise in the hands of Dimps), but it was sure as sunshine marketed that way.

Oh I know. I was more saying it doesn't live up to its title. The spin-off part of my post was a joke. That is if your post was directed towards me

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Though, please don't call Advance Shitty. I grew up with them myself, they hold a special place in my heart.

problem is people call games i grew with shitty as well but thats justified but .... yeah Ill try not to but then.....

[StaticMania]

i wasnt around when they say truly imgainded and project needlemouse. what is that?

Project needlemouse was just a Project name when they were still making the game using the original stand-in name for Sonic.

[Xtremer Sadiqachu]

If I want to be honest I do NOT like the classic games after playing this and other modern games. So I dont understand.

 

But the classics are the same thing except better 

[Biggs]

Another problem I have with Episode 2 regards the speed boosters and springs-- they are even worse than Episode 1. See that one section (you know the one) in Oil Desert act 2 and several instances in Sky Fortress 2 & 3 where there's three diagonal springs slapped in a hallway for no reason other than to be 'fancy' and actually slow down the experience if anything.

 

To be totally honest, I didn't mind the fact that there were plenty of automated sections in Sonic 4: Episode II; but what I did mind is the fact that these automated places were done via the overuse of springs and speed boosters. The overuse of springs and speed boosters made these sections horrifically dull. I mean, if you are going to have a considerable amount of automated sections in a game, at the very least give each section some sort of individual spectacle to make them memorable. Hydrocity Zone is probably the best example I can think of from the Classic era where automation was handled correctly, because let's be honest: that level did involve a helluva lot of holding right for multiple seconds on end. But it was fun because the experience of tumbling down giganticun water slides was unique and also at the same time enabled us to use the phyiscs.

 

IE, sections that required springs and speed boosters should be replaced with something different in each instant of automation, like a scripted sequence or even allow us to make use of what we can do as a player, such as exploitation of physics.

[Milo]

I don't really know why people say the physics for Episode II are better than that of Episode I (or at least, significantly better anyway). They're the same physics engine of Episode I with momentum added so you don't move like a brick when coming to a stop and some tweaked values. Just look at how Super Sonic plays in that game for proof, he controls /exactly/ as he did in Episode I. So much for that "all-new" physics engine Ken was proclaiming. And even then the level design has so many dash panels, springs, and compulsory co-op puzzles that it renders the physics completely pointless. Say what you want about Episode I and the Homing Attack but you're not required to use it at any point and it's not as automated as Episode II was.

 

I guess in a sense it "feels" better to play, but it's not really saying much. It's an upgrade from being kicked in the balls to being slapped in the face.

[Dizcrybe]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one on the planet who doesn't hate Sonic 4 with a passion. I guess I didn't care about the Sonic 4 thing as much as other people.

 

That being said, while I did like Ep. 1, I feel it was really just filler until Colors came out. Once I got that game, I stopped playing  Ep. 1 completely.

 

Ep. 2 I did go back to a couple of times, and it's actually a pretty good 2D platformer if you ignore the title. Dash wheels, pits and boosters aside, the level design is pretty decent. Sonic doesn't feel incredibly sluggish when you try to move him this time around, either.

 

Also, I thought the music was good. Both soundtracks. (though EP. 2's was way better)

[Sami]

But the classics are the same thing except better 

 

Can we not do this? No they're not. They're built radically differently and are completely different not only in pure game design but also their core design philosophy. 

 

I couldn't disagree more, but there's nothing wrong with her liking a certain kind of game more than another. Saying they're "the same but better" when they're hardly the same at all would be like me asking why people play Nintendo because I think Playstation is "the same but better". 

 

They're nothing alike. Let her have her preference.

 

and honestly I think calling any of them "the same" as Sonic 4 in any way is tarnishing the legacy of genuinely good games

[FriendBot]

Ahh, Sonic the Hegehog 4.... there is so much I have for this one.

 

I found Episode 1 alright, had decent music and had an interesting idea of making each level have a certain gimmick, like Splash Hill Act 2 having swing vines or Act 3 having ziplines. It was rather disappointing to see Dimps make the game and not putting a whole lot of effort into making it and the game was to cash-out onto the name itself, so that was disappointing. The levels surprisingly did look similar to previous levels but it had its own mixes as well, like Lost Labyrinth looks more like a lost and ancient ruin and is nothing like Labyrinth from 1 or Casino Street looking more bright and colorful than Casino Night from 2, so I give it that. The level design is not that great, to be honest, the game doesn't give you a whole lot of open areas to see other ways of completing a level, making it look rather linear in design and the rolling physics is a must for game to feel like a "classic" Sonic game. Advance did it right so what's Dimps' excuse here?  The bosses were decently designed, but the Grabber Eggman boss from Casino Street Zone was probably the worst due to it being more easier than its original form even though, it now has an attack similar to the Screw Attack from the Metroid games. But bosses like Lost Labyrinth or Mad Gear were rather amusing since they expanded upon the original forms, like a chase sequence with the Flying Eggman mech from Mad Gear. E.G.G. Station Zone could have been more than Boss Rush: The Level but my god, that boss fight with the E.G.G. Station Robot was much more interesting than the Death Egg Robot. The special stages were alright, liked the idea of ring gates and the idea of a time limit AND the option to retry the stage again. Absolutely, loved the idea of having a World Map so you can replay the stages again without having to start anew. Super Sonic was much more controllable to use and was pretty fun to play with. Despite the sound, the music that Jun Senoue composed was not that bad sure it's not his best and they looped too often but I still liked it. 

 

And then came Episode II, again to be honest, I liked it a lot. First things first, the game looks gorgeous, I'm not even kdding it has to be the most beautiful looking 2D Sonic game I have played, just dat Oil Desert Act 3. The music felt more like "Genesis" music and had more length to it, heck Senoue even remixed the Generations' remix of Stardust Speedway, but the the theme that played for the Eggman boss fights was way too repetitive for my tastes. The boss fights were much more better, both visual wise and design-wise. I know everyone here atleast enjoyed the boss fight with Metal Sonic at White Park, I had real fun playing them and it is a good thing that they made the bosses more original, my problem is that the Eggman fights were pretty "waiting game-like" designed bosses but they were alright. I was also impressed that they made a Episode Metal DLC, telling us what happened to Metal after CD and connecting both CD and Episode 1 together, I found it rather clever of Dimps of making it so. Dimps made some tweaks to the physics where rolling physics actually work, it's not much but atleast we got it. The levels were more like hybrid levels of the classic games and it made it work, like Oil Desert is pretty much Oil Ocean from 2 and Sandopolis from 3&K or Sky Fortress is a more expanded Sky Chase (Act 1) and Wing Fortress, both from 2. The levels may force you to use the combo moves to progress through the level but it didn't hurt the pacing of the levels that much, but I digress. The special stages were actually pretty fun to play despite being ripped off from Sonic 2, especially that Tails doesn't lose rings when he gets hurt. Super Sonic is just as enjoyable to play as in this game than in Episode 1, also you can cancel Super Sonic with the combo moves. Overall, Episode II is a much more enjoyable experience than Episode I, even though the level design is arguably worse in this game than Episode 1 but I still enjoyed regardless.

 

So yeah, I enjoyed Sonic 4 for what it is but are they anything like the classics, if Dimps put a lot of effort into it, it could but they didn't and I am a bit dissapointed that these are the sequels to Sonic 3&K, my favourite Sonic game. But when I play it for what it is, I do enjoy it so that's it from me.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

But the classics are the same thing except better 

thats your opinion. i personally do not like them.

[Sami]

thats your opinion. i personally do not like them.

 

For what it's worth, I didn't come to appreciate them until relatively recently. I'd have said the same stuff you're saying about five or so years ago.

 

Try playing them with an open mind. They'll be very different from what you've come to expect, but they're really great games in their own right. I'd recommend playing Sonic 3 Complete on emulator.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

For what it's worth, I didn't come to appreciate them until relatively recently. I'd have said the same stuff you're saying about five or so years ago.

 

Try playing them with an open mind. They'll be very different from what you've come to expect, but they're really great games in their own right. I'd recommend playing Sonic 3 Complete on emulator.

I play Sonic 3 and Knuckles and it was good. I like it even though it was long. I enjoy but it wasnt my favorite. But out of the classics I pick it

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I have a question. Do you think me and sme others only like the game because we are not the classic fans?

[Tara]

I have a question. Do you think me and sme others only like the game because we are not the classic fans?

You like a game because it conforms to what you consider to be "good."  Nothing more, nothing less.  Though the entire forum is welcome to disagree to their heart's content, it's no less a legitimate matter of taste as that of someone who grew up with Sonic in the early 90's.

[azoo]

Not necessarily at all. Some people are fans of both, such as Indigo Rush, as he stated earlier in the topic.

 

However, most fans of the classic games are usually bothered by the flaws of Sonic 4, whether they ended up liking it or not; and some people who don't even like the classic games much can say they don't like it for their own reasons, too.

 

Now "most" doesn't mean "all" of course, and it's really okay to say you like it and don't really see the flaws, since the game after all isn't technically broken in any sense. Akito explains it a bit better than I do. XD

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I know but there are some who think that if I was a classic fans I would not like the game and that I defend the game because Im not a classic fan.

[Tara]

I know but there are some who think that if I was a classic fans I would not like the game and that I defend the game because Im not a classic fan.

Well, I guess we'll never know unless you have a change of heart about the classics.  It doesn't matter, anyway.  The Sonic fandom isn't one big unit; it's a divided unit broken down into different sects which depend largely on the upbringing of the individual in question.  You come from a different sect of the fanbase, which means your opinions will often drastically differ, but they are not any less valid than anyone else's from any other sect.

[Briraka]

The way I would look at the Sonic fanbase (or fanbases in general) is this: Everyone is different.

 

There could be a classic fan out there that think Sonic 1 is the perfect example of what a Sonic game should be, but think that Sonic 3 & Knuckles is garbage. Or there could be a modern fan who thinks that Sonic 06 can be enjoyable at times, but can't stand playing Unleashed.

 

... Oh right, Sonic 4. I bought Episode 1 on WiiWare, played it for about an hour, and felt I just flushed away $15 that I could have used for a nice dinner in town.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I never also have problems on the rolling

[FriendBot]

I never also have problems on the rolling

 

It's not that there is a problem with rolling itself, but we missed the feel of how fast you were going using said rolling physics in a slope and see how fast Sonic went through said slope. Example, beginning of Chemical Plant Act 2 from Sonic 2.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

i thought the slope from chemical plant was more titled for that kind of action though

[Blue Blood]

It's a simple fact that neither episode of Sonic 4 (or Generations) has level design to compliment rolling, and that rolling is nowhere near as effective as in the classics. Now whether or not you mind that is subjective, but in terms of emulating the classics S4 does a pretty poor job in that regard and many others.