Sonic 4 thread

[TheOcelot]

In Ep1 the physics don't allow Sonic to pick up speed when rolling down hill, which means you have to keep the direction button pressed just to keep Sonic moving downhill (locked at that the speed-cap), which is ridiculous. The only form of momentum in that game was the homing attack and speed boosters. So I could never get comfortable with the controls. 

[JezMM]

I enjoy both games, but I dislike a few things.

 

In Episode 1 the bosses and tropes are all pretty straightly reused, but the visuals are still nice and fairly fresh.  Lost Labyrinth and Casino Street's skyboxes are pretty breathtaking for a little game like this.  No problems with Ep 2 in this regard.

 

However, Episode 2's bosses are sometimes meanly brutal.  You get your money's worth because they're long fights, but the way nearly every boss throws insta-death attacks at you at the end of a long, gruelling challenge is totally unfair.

 

The soundtracks are lame.  I like the songs, but the 16-bit styled music just didn't work for me.  The graphics and playstyle were updated to reflect modern Sonic - why wasn't the soundtrack?  Cheap nostalgia pandering at its worst - stifling modern artistic possibilities.  Sonic 4's soundtrack should've been like Speed Highway Act 1 in Generations at the very most - modern music with a few throwback samples used here and there if they must.  But really, that Splash Hill remix in Mario & Sonic where Jun goes all out on it in his usual style?  Could've been like that in the first place if you ask me.  And ugh the fucking Eggman boss music on Episode 2 for those long fights - what was Jun thinking?  Could thing Metal Sonic's awesome theme blows it out the water as compensation.

 

 

 

Other than that yeah the lack of physics platforming makes this a terrible sequel to the classic games, it doesn't deserve the title of Sonic 4.  But as a general Sonic platformer, a slower, more platformy take on the kind of gameplay we got in Sonic Rush?  Yeah they're pretty damn alright, I prolly play them through once a year.

[MugiMikey]

I grew up with the classic games, but when Sonic 4 Episode 1 came out I played it with an open mind and liked it. It was nothing more than a fun little game.

When Episode 2 came out I just wasn't feeling it. Tails wasn't playable, I felt that none of the physics were fixed, and the levels and bosses were boring and quite gimmicky. Springs, boosters, and (IIRC) chains were still abundant. Ken Balough kept talking about how there would be all these improvements but they just weren't there. Having Tails help you was a good idea, but its mandatory nature makes it a bore. The visuals are different in both episodes, Episode 2 has red ring collecting and Episode 1 doesn't, and overall they just seem like two different games despite being the same. I think it's an inconsistent mess overall.

I think it's completely fair to compare these to the classics. Before both episodes came out, Sega proudly said it's a sequel to one of the most beloved games in the franchise. That raised the bar by a significant amount. Unfortunately, the final product ended up not being a true spiritual successor at all, and this wouldn't have been that much of a problem if it had a different name. Oh, marketing ploys.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Funny thing is that when I hear about Sonic 4 this is how I wanted it to be:

 

[StaticMania]

Funny thing is that when I hear about Sonic 4 this is how I wanted it to be:

 

A 3D Re-imagining of Sonic 1...not really what Sonic 4 really needs if it wants to actully be a true Sonic 4.

[TheOcelot]

A 3D Re-imagining of Sonic 1...not really what Sonic 4 really needs if it wants to actully be a true Sonic 4.

 

 

Yeah, instead we got a 2d re-imaging of Sonic 1 & 2.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

No i mean i wanted Sonic 4 to be like the modern games I play.

[Indigo Rush]

...then it wouldn't even be Sonic 4. That's basically the complete antithesis to Classic Sonic.

 

Look, I love the modern boost style, but that is NOT Classic Sonic gameplay.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I didnt know t was supposed to be Sonic 1 gameplay until I play it. It was both Sonic 1 game play but with spindash and homing attack and a faster Sonic.

[Tara]

To me, Sonic actually feels like he goes a lot slower in Sonic 4 due largely to the aforementioned lack of momentum.  I still hold that it wasn't too bad despite of it, but I certainly didn't feel any faster than Sonic 1 or any classic era game.

[Indigo Rush]

Any similarities that Sonic 4 has to the original Genesis games is superficial at best. You can spindash, but the rolling mechanics don't work. You can jump on badniks, but the bouncing mechanics don't work. You can run to the right, but not even the inertia physics work.

 

The game may look like Green Hill, Casino Night, Labyrinth and Metropolis, but they all play the exact same, save for some gimmicks that barely inspire. Sonic might go fast, but it's due to speed boosters and springs, not out of carrying your momentum with skill. Sonic may be platforming, but the lack of inertia and the existence of air-dash completely changes the rules of platforming and jumping as a whole.

 

Sonic's speed depends on speed boosters and homing attacks and isn't about skillful jumping and rolling. Sonic's combat becomes less about jumping on robots and more about using the homing attack, completely breaking your flow.  If you're playing Sonic 4 as it's own standalone game, that's one thing. But when you try to compare it to the original games, the games that Sonic 4 was supposed to be like, then Sonic 4 fails. It simply fails. 

 

As someone who actually likes Sonic 4, I can't understand how anyone can see this as an improvement over the originals, especially considering its initial marketing push and entire development mindset. Is it the high def graphics? Even those don't look as good. The music? Good gravy does Sonic 4's soundtrack fail to inspire. 

 

It is not Sonic 4 as I truly imagined it. I may not have a clear view of what I wanted Sonic 4 to be, but it certainly wasn't this.

 

I'm also being made aware that you likely haven't played any of the original games in full. If you haven't, please, let me know what gaming platform of choice you have. I will personally buy you one of them so you can at least try it out.

[Sami]

I have a question. Do you think me and sme others only like the game because we are not the classic fans?

 

I think this is a bit too simple of a perspective to take, but it is true to an extent. As I said earlier, they're very different kinds of games. They play nothing alike, look nothing alike, and sound nothing alike. So judging from what you do and don't enjoy it's possible to come to that conclusion, yes. 

 

This is a more extreme example, but think of it like this - Sonic Generations used the same gameplay style as Sonic Unleashed. Who do you think is more likely to enjoy it? A fan of Sonic Unleashed? A fan of Sonic 1? It's a matter of what kind of game you do or do not enjoy, and so it can be assumed that since you like the kind of gameplay and visual style features in Sonic 4 (which is much closer to what we consider "modern" than the Genesis games), you would like it more than someone who isn't fond of that style.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I play Sonic 4 again and I can play it like a classic game. Also someone else can do the same as well:

 

[TheOcelot]

You can't complete the full game by playing as classic Sonic - by not using the homing attack. There are some areas, like in Mad Gear Act 1 where you are forced to homing-attack across some Bubble badniks. I actually don't mind using the ha in Sonic 4, especially in Episode 1 as it does give a sense of momentum. I also like using the co-op moves in Episode 2. It's a shame the normal spin-dash is so poorly implemented in both episodes.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Its more fun with the homing attack and I can actually say that I want a boost in Episode 3 to make it really awesome. But i play sometimes and I bounce of the enimes which is cool.

[FriendBot]

Its more fun with the homing attack and I can actually say that I want a boost in Episode 3 to make it really awesome. But i play sometimes and I bounce of the enimes which is cool.

 

If you add the boost, then it's no longer a classic Sonic game, it will pretty much be Sonic Rush. I don't mind 4 having a homing attack but 4 can't truly feel like a classic Sonic game, if the level design does not encourage rolling physics.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

If you add the boost, then it's no longer a classic Sonic game, it will pretty much be Sonic Rush. I don't mind 4 having a homing attack but 4 can't truly feel like a classic Sonic game, if the level design does not encourage rolling physics.

it mean it be opitinal. like I got homing attack for Classic Sonic in Sonic Generations.

 

I had no idea that Sonic 4 was supposed to be Sonic 1 tho so thats where Im confuse.

[Blue Blood]

You can't play S4 like a Classic game any more than you can play Unleashed like a Classic game. The level design doesn't allow for it (boosters and springs everywhere), and the physics downright prohibit it. 

 

I don't like that the homing attack was included. "A good sense of momentum". What does that mean? The HA literally stops you dead in your tracks. You built up all this momentum to come to an instant halt. The air dash adds speed to the game, but only because the physics were so bad you really struggled to gain speed any other way. That said, the air dash could be really fun if better implemented and if the homing attack didn't exist.

[Milo]

The uploader / player of the video Sonniku-chan posted completely misses or ignores the points of criticism leveled at the game on the basis that "it doesn't play like / feel like the classics" by trying to playing the game in a specific manner which the uploader claims is in the classic style.

 

The only major difference in how the game is played by the player of the video is not using the Homing Attack, essentially saying that if you ignore the fact that the Homing Attack exists in the game and play without it, you can play Sonic 4 "as a classic game." That is not only wrong, but also (as Bender noted) cannot even be done-there are at least a couple of areas where the Homing Attack is most definitely necessary for a player to use -albeit unintentionally- in order to clear certain obstacles.

 

Nobody /has/ to use the Homing Attack in Episode II either, but that doesn't excuse the facts that the physics still aren't like the Genesis games or the level design is excessively automated and has puzzles that require the compulsory use of co-op mechanics such as flying, swimming, or the Rolling Combo. Likewise, the boost in Unleashed isn't /necessary/ to use (presumably in most cases anyway), but that doesn't excuse the fact that it is what some would criticize as an overpowered gameplay mechanic that in some instances influences the level design.

 

The problem with Sonic 4 (Episode I) is that the gameplay mechanics, physics, and level design is not like the Genesis games, which the game is labeled and advertised as a return to. Saying that the problem is "people aren't playing it correctly" is ignoring the game's problems or trying to defend them by making up excuses or placing the blame on another factor, which in most instances I've personally seen is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand.

 

EDIT: Reading the comments of the video, apparently if one reads the (now unviewable) tags for the video, the person was actually joking and wasn't serious. Eh, I still feel the point I was making still stands.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Space☆Gabe

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

To be honest, Im happy it isnt Sonic 1. I found Sonic 1 2 3 to be very boring games. Sonic 3 and Knuckles was alright but i dont think its' "good" i think its "alright" and "cool". Thats just me. I dont really get it. I dont understand whys ists bad for Sonic 4 to have like 2 modern touch to it? I mean the game has classic feels. Its a classic game but with newbies. We have games that are for everyone for many years. They put things in the new games classic fans like and no one complains. They put Classic Sonic and everyone loves and so do I. But Sonic 4 brings in modern fans and they blame them for the game being bad. It rubs me the wrong way.

[FriendBot]

To be honest, Im happy it isnt Sonic 1. I found Sonic 1 2 3 to be very boring games. Sonic 3 and Knuckles was alright but i dont think its' "good" i think its "alright" and "cool". Thats just me. I dont really get it. I dont understand whys ists bad for Sonic 4 to have like 2 modern touch to it? I mean the game has classic feels. Its a classic game but with newbies. We have games that are for everyone for many years. They put things in the new games classic fans like and no one complains. They put Classic Sonic and everyone loves and so do I. But Sonic 4 brings in modern fans and they blame them for the game being bad. It rubs me the wrong way.

 

We wouldn't have much of a problem if Dimps actually made some goddamn efort into this since the classic Genesis games is the ONLY reason why Sonic is still around, if you want to make a sequel to a game that is the reason why said franchise is around, they have to put a lot of effort into it, but they didn't. They only used the titile as a cash grab. When I compare Ep I with 3&K, they play completely different. 3&K had level design that encourages you to use rolling physics to reach higher places, Ep I does not. I don't mind 4 having modern touches except when it's the boost because it will become a modern game but the HA is alright but the game forces it on you so many times, it becomes tedious and also as many people have said, it's a pace breaker. The Classics had a great sense of flow and momentum, 4 can achieve it if it wasn't for the level design forcing you to use the homing attack in many occassions.

[Brad]

People who disliked Sonic 4 likely enjoyed the classic trio. Even if you dislike the classic trio of games, you can't deny the impact and legacy they have on this franchise - without them, this entire franchise wouldn't even exist, in fact. When you create a sequel to a game, you're meant to take the similar gameplay from the previous games and evolve it in the right way. 

 

Sonic 4 didn't do this for people who enjoyed the classics. The classics invoked level design that focused on challenging you to earn speed and using your momentum to keep it. The more you mastered it, the more you'd enjoy getting faster in each stage. The level design had the right mix of platforming, challenges and automated sections to make it feel thrilling and challenging. Sonic 4 not only disposed of the basic gameplay mechanics that made the original trio so enjoyable to fans it was aiming this game at, but the "modern touches" involved giving you a button you could repeatedly mash to gain top speed almost instantly and take out enemies with little to no effort. Alongside the flat and automated level design in the games, it ends up being a disappointing package.

 

This game doesn't feel classic to me.

[Indigo Rush]

Ya know, I ordered a hamburger at a restaurant once. Cheese, bacon, A1 steaksauce, the works, but hold the pickles. I was so hyped. Then when I placed the order, the waitress told me that it would be exactly the way I wanted it, and that it would be everything I dreamed of.

 

Then I got the plate, and instead of a hamburger, I got a hotdog.

 

I mean, it was a nice hotdog. Well, okay, it wasn't that great of a hotdog. But it was filling and everything, and I'm sure many others enjoyed their hotdog. But it wasn't a hamburger. It wasn't what was promised to me.

 

Then they said that they'd get it right the next time.

 

When I got it, I got a pattie made of hotdog meat on a hamburger bun. They held the pickles, I guess, but where's the beef? It's only made to look like a hamburger at this point. Is it good? Yeah, I guess...? But it isn't a hamburger.

 

That's kind of what we're trying to get at. That's Sonic 4. I ordered a sequel to Sonic & Knuckles, I got something almost totally different. They then made the second episode, and it was only superficially similar.

[Komodin]

I dont understand whys ists bad for Sonic 4 to have like 2 modern touch to it?

 

There's nothing wrong with this game having "modern" influences at all -- in fact, I'm not opposed by Sonic's modern design or the Homing Attack being here. What's the problem here is that it plays less like a "classic" Sonic game (which is supposed to be the whole point of it) and more like a poor man's Sonic Rush with little to none of the fun of either games. Considering that this is supposed to be a game whose target demographic is supposed to be those who enjoyed the classic Sonic games at some point in their life, this is a pretty notable problem.

[Pawn]

To be honest, Im happy it isnt Sonic 1. I found Sonic 1 2 3 to be very boring games. Sonic 3 and Knuckles was alright but i dont think its' "good" i think its "alright" and "cool". Thats just me. I dont really get it. I dont understand whys ists bad for Sonic 4 to have like 2 modern touch to it? I mean the game has classic feels. Its a classic game but with newbies. We have games that are for everyone for many years. They put things in the new games classic fans like and no one complains. They put Classic Sonic and everyone loves and so do I. But Sonic 4 brings in modern fans and they blame them for the game being bad. It rubs me the wrong way.

 

The problem is that Sonic 4 is more like a Modern game with a Classic touch than a Classic game with Modern Sonic and the homing attack. The art takes cues from the Classics (and some of the bosses are outright ripped from them), but that's about it.