Sonic 4 thread

[Indigo Rush]

While we're on the subject, this basically sums up where Sonic 4 falls short on the physics and control department:

 

 

And not just by Classic Sonic standards, but by any platforming game standards - especially Sonic.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Just because I though people were attacking me doesnt mean it's a goddamned game. I just clearly misunderstand your post. Thats all and Im sorry.

 

I understand why the game is hated and Im cool with people hating it

[Blue Blood]

While we're on the subject, this basically sums up where Sonic 4 falls short on the physics and control department:

 

*is this how you physics*

 

And not just by Classic Sonic standards, but by any platforming game standards - especially Sonic.

 

Like Sonic 4 or not, I don't know how anyone can watch that video and defend it as a good game. They're not problems you have to seek out, but very typical occurrences that happen during standard gameplay. My favourite example would be the minecarts in LLZ2. They're automatically controlled, but if you don't hold right when they launch you into the air, you will die. That's the perfect combination of poor physics and poor level design.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

thing is, its a first Sonic game for me into the series. Its my first 2D game so its... natural for me to think all 2D will be like that. Just like with those who start with the classics. Maybe I am a bad classic player... maybe because Im good at the new games. I can admit. And Im sorry.

 

I defend because I love the game and its my first 2D. This isnt a game. I really do love the game and I didnt like at first people shitting over it but I understand why people hate it and im good with it. I really do and I see the post hating the game do get the most likes. But I understand people dont like the pyscics thing.

 

I am just sorry because I did act like a brat when defend the game. Its just the game can be see as iconic to me. Its a first.

[FriendBot]

thing is, its a first Sonic game for me into the series. Its my first 2D game so its... natural for me to think all 2D will be like that. Just like with those who start with the classics. Maybe I am a bad classic player... maybe because Im good at the new games. I can admit. And Im sorry.

 

I defend because I love the game and its my first 2D. This isnt a game. I really do love the game and I didnt like at first people shitting over it but I understand why people hate it and im good with it.

 

As long as you understand that 4 had its flaws, we're all good. I mean it sure the physics are wonky as hell and the level design is pretty poor but it's an alright game but it doesn't deserve the title " Sonic the Hedgehog 4".

[Blue Blood]

Forgetting the classics for a moment and looking at Sonic 4 as entirely it's own thing... it looks pretty poor. I know this fangame in particular get schtick for being too visually busy sometimes, but it's so much more please to the eye than S4. S4 looks little better than Donkey Kong Country without the palette limitations.

[TheOcelot]

thing is, its a first Sonic game for me into the series. Its my first 2D game so its... natural for me to think all 2D will be like that. Just like with those who start with the classics. Maybe I am a bad classic player... maybe because Im good at the new games. I can admit. And Im sorry.

 

I defend because I love the game and its my first 2D. This isnt a game. I really do love the game and I didnt like at first people shitting over it but I understand why people hate it and im good with it. I really do and I see the post hating the game do get the most likes. But I understand people dont like the pyscics thing.

 

I am just sorry because I did act like a brat when defend the game. Its just the game can be see as iconic to me. Its a first.

 

A lot of the newer fans to Sonic games will naturally end up playing Sonic 4 before the classics, as both episodes are accessible on so many devices. I can understand why new fans might prefer Sonic 4 Episode 2 over the classics. I mean, graphically speaking Ep2 is a much better looking game compared to the classic games, which you would expect 20 years on. It has Tails, co-op moves, two player co-op, an okayish soundtrack, interesting bosses and good special stages. The physics - whilst still flawed - are at least an improvement over Ep1. I will always prefer the classics, but I do like Ep2 a lot (although I dislike Ep1 with a passion).

 

Yeah Sonic 4 has a lot of issues (which have been covered in the last few posts) but they are still perfectly playable games. If you prefer Sonic 4 over the other classics then that's fine, more the power to you. You shouldn't feel the need to apologise, you haven't done anything wrong. Just because you don't like the classic games as much doesn't automatically mean you're bad at playing them.

 

Forgetting the classics for a moment and looking at Sonic 4 as entirely it's own thing... it looks pretty poor. I know this fangame in particular get schtick for being too visually busy sometimes, but it's so much more please to the eye than S4. S4 looks little better than Donkey Kong Country without the palette limitations.

 

Agreed. That plastic grass *shudders*

 

 

Episode 2 on the other hand looks so much better.

 

 

 

 

 

The background looks beautiful, it really does.

[DBZHedgy]

These games lack the charm and originality the classics brought, instead attempting to emulate them poorly through copying, and it just comes off poor. Episode I is the absolute worst for this. Every level and enemy is a complete rehash of what already existed with a new coat of paint, and this wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the abhorrent level design which is superbly linearised and dependent on the homing attack. 

That's almost exactly how I feel about Sonic Colors and Lost world. At least all of the levels were new and didn't use the exact same level except in a shorter part for the next act. And bringing back partner A.I. was one of the main things that did it for me. Many people may disagree, but I feel that this game did the classics justice better than Colors or Lost World.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

That's almost exactly how I feel about Sonic Colors and Lost world. At least all of the levels were new and didn't use the exact same level except in a shorter part for the next act. And bringing back partner A.I. was one of the main things that did it for me. Many people may disagree, but I feel that this game did the classics justice better than Colors or Lost World.

 

Colors and Lost World weren't trying to be the Classic games though. This game was pretending to be.

[FriendBot]

That's almost exactly how I feel about Sonic Colors and Lost world. At least all of the levels were new and didn't use the exact same level except in a shorter part for the next act. And bringing back partner A.I. was one of the main things that did it for me. Many people may disagree, but I feel that this game did the classics justice better than Colors or Lost World.

 

In what way does Colors and Lost World try to be a Classic game?

 

Both of them were Modern games, 4 is supposedly the successor of 3&K. Colors and Lost World follow the current continuity and are no way related to the classics. Granted, both of them had 2D levels but they are not supposed to be anything like the Classics. You have to try harder to convince me that those games suck.

[Milo]

 

Agreed. That plastic grass *shudders*

 

 

Episode 2 on the other hand looks so much better.

 

Ehhhh, the graphics /are/ better but I feel that they lack the visual artstyle of the Genesis games (Sky-obvious-throwback-level-Fortress Zone aside). Though pretty, I personally think that also look pretty generic and lack creativity. I think Episode I nailed the Genesis aesthetics better, though that can be chalked up to Episode I being a complete rehash of the Genesis Sonic games' zones in terms of artwork and visual design.

 

That and I feel that Splash Hill is the only poor looking zone in the game. Casino Street Zone looks pretty nice, especially with the 3Dish backgrounds that undergoes perspective changes depending on whether Sonic moves higher or lower in the levels. Lost Labyrinth Zone I personally think is the best looking of Sonic 4's zones-nice simplicity in terms of design, which I think matches the overall ancient feel of the zone. Mad Gear has a very nice metallic feel to the overall design of the zone. E.G.G. Station Zone is nothing special though.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

As long as you understand that 4 had its flaws, we're all good. I mean it sure the physics are wonky as hell and the level design is pretty poor but it's an alright game but it doesn't deserve the title " Sonic the Hedgehog 4".

I respectfuly disagree. I think the platforming rolling thing is unique to me. I like to roll up the side of the wall. The one thing i hate abut Episode 1 is the uncurling and the Splash Hill Zone musics. Other then that I say in my review of the eipsode that all and all, this game was enjoyable and it got me into trying the other 2-D Sonic games. I have played some others but they didn't compare to the fun and challenge this game had. While learning about the classics, I think this game is good for classic and modern fans alike. I will tell anyone who asks to play this game.

 

I want to bring this part up again from first post: Sonics gameplay in this game was wonderful. He was really fast and has his spindash. He also had his homing attack from the 3-D games I played. I liked the homing attack because it felt like the chain attack from the 3D games and I liked the sense of speed when I bounced off a chain to get to another side. It added a fun challenge. The spindash was really fast and it was good to roll up those 90 degree slopes. The boosters also added a nice sense of speed. The only thing that annoyed me was that when I would roll up a slope, I would uncurl and bump into a badnik and loose my rings.

The stages were awesome as well. For example, Casino Night had you shooting out barrells and walking on playing cards which was cool. It felt like a casino than in Sonic 2 and alot more fun. Lost Labrynth was my favorite stage because of the cart levels (Ipod version of Act 2 was better but) and the walking on ball. It was a run and hard way to get across especially when you had to walk on them without falling. Egg Station was another favorite because you get to fight the bosses from the other levels in this level. Before fighting the final of course!

The special stages were very easy and getting Super Sonic was rewarding

The bosses in this game I saw when I played the earlier games were almost the game but in this game they were harder to deal with, which added a challenge from the 3-d games. Like when I played Sonic 1, I saw the first boss and was easy to beat. It was the one where Dr Eggman had his wrecking ball machine. In Sonic 4, he actually made it to that it could crush you by flipping the wreaking ball. In Sonic 2, the final boss was the Death Egg. In Sonic 4 they made that boss alot tougher... and really tough! The robot actually trips and you have to move and you can use your homing attack to shoot rockets at it. Good gameplay all and all.

 

which I give the gameplay for Episode 1 and 9/10. Its that uncurling!!

 

But Episode 2 was different to me. This game was great improvement from the the first game. It fixed the uncurling and added something fun with a new playable character. Tails was there to help you every step of the way! Not only that but you can also play as Metal Sonic. This game is amazing. Tails added so much to the game and no unclrling!!! And better music. So I dont have any complains about Sonic 4 Episode 2.

 

[FriendBot]

Again how does the homing attack give a sense of speed whenever you use it you lose all of your momentum?

 

I too like Episode II but it really isn't that great to other games, like Genrations or Rush Adventure. But hey, if you like it, more power to you!

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

No it doesnt give the sense of speed but it keep the speed. When I fo the homing attack i get on to the platforms and jump to get speeds.

[FriendBot]

That's the jump dash, it's an entirely different move and also a cheap way of getting speed fast. I liked to be challenged of gaining speed in a Sonic game like in the classics. If you know the levels well enough, you'll be able to go fast in the levels which is much more rewarding but in 4, all you need to do is jump dash and you're done. That's rather lame, honestly.

[Indigo Rush]

Sonic 4 is less deserving of the title it was given than Sonic Advance. If anything, Sonic Advance should have been called Sonic 4 for preserving the core gameplay, physics and general level design philosophies.

 

What we got as Sonic 4 is by no means deserving of its title. 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I do also want to say that I wasnt trying to say i was a fact the old games were slow dull and boring. Thats only my opinion. I felt they were. I dont want anyone to think I was trying to say that its a fact they are bad games. They are only boring to me. Right now I play Sonic 1 without chaos emeralds and I cant seem to like the game. I cant get into Sonic 2 or Sonic 3. It felt to me like ot drag when I run or I lose speeds when i jit springs or I am super slow in some zones.

 

Sonic 3 and Knuckles was better but it still drag to me. I like Knuckles and Sonic but some parts drag. But I do love Sandpolis Zone.

[DBZHedgy]

Wait... Doesn't the Homing attack in every game after and including Sonic Unleashed cancel all air momentum as well?

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Wait... Doesn't the Homing attack in every game after and including Sonic Unleashed cancel all air momentum as well?

what do you mean?

[Blue Blood]

what do you mean?

 

You can be moving very fast, but as soon as you hit an enemy or object with the homing attack, Sonic stops moving. This is why saying the homing attack gives a good sense of speed in S4 is actually completely untrue. You might still enjoy it, but it does absolutely nothing to help your speed. The boosters and abusing the air dash in S4 are also the only way of gaining speed, because running alone is very sluggish for some reason. And springs also don't take any of you momentum into account. It doesn't matter what you're doing when you hit a spring, it will always take you to a set spot at a set speed before you regain control (and if you press nothing Sonic will just drop like a rock).

[Indigo Rush]

We understand your stance a little better now, don't worry about it. Please just be careful with your wording. I understand there may  be a language barrier as well, so I guess that may account for a lot of stuff.

 

Just keep in mind the situation you've put yourself in. First of all, and this has been said to you many times by pretty much all of us in both the threads and the status updates, it is perfectly fine for you to like and enjoy Sonic 4 over the other 2D Sonic games, even the original ones on the Genesis. That should not be an issue in any way, and I want you to know that of all Sonic-related forums on the Internet, over here we take greater care in respecting each other's opinions. We even appreciate that you realize that most of us here do not like Sonic 4 the way you do, and that should be fine as well. There are no hang-ups regarding this, so this shouldn't be an issue.

 

But you do need to keep in mind what you're saying and how you're saying it. Let me give you a few analogies to try and illustrate what it looks like.

 

Imagine, if you will, that this isn't a Sonic forum, but a Donkey Kong forum. You're relatively new and you absolutely love the new Donkey Kong Country games made by Retro Studios. You're actually in good company. These games are well-received by most everybody, and if you were to drop by a thread called "The Donkey Kong Country Returns Thread," and said that you liked the newer games better than the originals, we likely would be a-okay with you saying that.

 

Now, if you were to instead say that "the original Donkey Kong Country games are dull and boring," without being tactful on mentioning that this was how you felt about the game on a subjective level, you'd likely be returned a bit of backlash. And rightfully so - the original Donkey Kong Country games are fantastic and well put together in their own right. Admittedly, I've not been able to get into them or enjoy them the same as everyone else, but I most definitely respect the series for its depth, aesthetics and steps forward in applying pseudo-3D visuals on 16-bit hardware, though it may not look as well.

 

Let's shift series now. Instead of being either the Sonic Stadium or some Donkey Kong-centric fan-site, we are now the "Metroid Stadium," and we all share the common love of the Metroid games. You recently join and you happen to be a fan of "Metroid: Other M," a game that was not well-received en masse. Even if the game may have its good points and general positives about it, the general consensus is that the gameplay did not match with the standard of its predecessors and the story was an overall disgrace to the narrative of earlier games. But there are still a number of people out there who love that game, and I'm certain Metroid fans are included in that mix. 

 

If you were to walk into a Metroid forum and say that you liked Other M better than Super Metroid, while you'd get a lot of weird looks or negative feedback, in the end we would respect your opinion, since your personal enjoyment of a game is based on what you find fun on a subjective level. You'd certainly get more of an earful, but no one would think the less of you. Now. if you had said that you find that Super Metroid is "dull and boring" in comparison to Other M, you'd better duck and cover. Unless you use tact in explaining that you mean this on a subjective basis and are in no way intending to say that Super Metroid is a bad game, you will get a much bigger wave of angry comments not only due to the general praise that Super Metroid has received, but also due to the general disdain that Other M has received.

 

This is closer to what's going on right now. Once we understood that you only felt that Classic Sonic was slow and boring in comparison to what you liked, I'm sure most of us lightened up on our angry posts. I certainly hope so, anyway. But what we heard wasn't a subjective opinion, what you had said was, (and rather facetiously, I might add), that Classic Sonic games are slow and boring, and you did this with absolutely no disclaimer that this was your opinion. Not all of us are on the same level of understanding your background or where you're coming from, so our misunderstanding was perfectly reasonable and understood.

 

Sonic 4 is not critically acclaimed while Sonic 1-3&Knuckles are, and beyond even simply being good games, they're responsible for setting the standard for all Sonic games to follow. They are Sonic's debut and are often seen as being stellar in their own right, and one of those accolades were their sense of speed and fun factor. Not only were these games good, but they also heavily impacted the gaming industry in the early 90s. They did what was impossible at the time by convincing gamers that there was a suitable alternative to gaming on Nintendo platforms. Sonic may have been a case of bottled lightning, a flash in the pan success based off of being revealed at the right place and time, but it was not based off of an empty boast of speed and platforming - these games have genuine depth and universal appeal to them, and continual blistering sales even to this day are a testament to this.

 

Sonic 4 attempted to capitalize on this without taking care to understand why these games were so popular. Sonic Team 2009 and Dimps failed to understand why Sonic 1-3 were good to begin with. They may have made a game that had some good aspects to it, but the fact of the matter is that this game that was released in 2010 absolutely failed to achieve the same level of depth as well as failed to properly recreate the level design and physics in a game that was released in 1991. They failed in some of the most basic aspects in regards to inertia, rolling and bouncing... all of which are key parts of the Genesis games, mind you. And though art may be subjective to a degree, the music and visual designs in Sonic 4 did not reflect the same spirit and philosophies that the first games put forward, instead missing the point and opting for clashing lighting effects, mixing sprites with 3D models and using poor quality synth music.

 

This is basically why we were upset. Not taking care to divide opinion from fact will result in these misunderstandings, and while we are all most certainly sorry about being overly reactive at the time, understand that this was not unprovoked or without reason. 

 

Sonic 4 has some fun moments, even I like playing through both episodes, and I'm not the only one here, either. But we take great care in taking the time to understand that while it may have some objective good in it, we have to remember that this game failed in providing what it was promised to give. In that respect, Sonic 4 is a massive failure, and there is absolutely no objective analysis out there that can deny this.

[DBZHedgy]

Did anyone get the game solely because they brought back the Partners? 

I was stunned when I realized that it was in Shadow since it wasn't in Adventure 2, and relpaying that game was almost solely because of that.

[Indigo Rush]

I don't think so, not really. The selling point initially was that Tails was returning, not so much the partner mechanics which are actually more involved than Tails simply following you around. Though that may not have been for the better since it tends to break up the pace, but that's a different story. People were actually more upset that we couldn't play as Tails apart from Sonic outside of multiplayer mode. Ultimately, the tag-team action moves felt phoned in rather than essential.

 

Actually, the way Sonic 4 Episode 2 handles partners is closer to Sonic Advance 3, (another Dimps game) considering you have an air action and a ground action with your partners. The thing is that unlike Advance 3, Episode 2 was without the bonus of having multiple moves based off of picking different teammates, and not even letting Tails take the lead. 

[DBZHedgy]

I see... I do like how they made the special stages so much less tedious though. 

[Sami]

I don't think so, not really. The selling point initially was that Tails was returning, not so much the partner mechanics which are actually more involved than Tails simply following you around. Though that may not have been for the better since it tends to break up the pace, but that's a different story. People were actually more upset that we couldn't play as Tails apart from Sonic outside of multiplayer mode. Ultimately, the tag-team action moves felt phoned in rather than essential.

 

Actually, the way Sonic 4 Episode 2 handles partners is closer to Sonic Advance 3, (another Dimps game) considering you have an air action and a ground action with your partners. The thing is that unlike Advance 3, Episode 2 was without the bonus of having multiple moves based off of picking different teammates, and not even letting Tails take the lead.

Tails' inclusion in the game felt so god damn arbitrary, lol. Felt like Sonic Heroes' forced gimmick bullshit where I'd be stopped by some barrier while the game says "do the thing to get past the thing".