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Legosi (Tani Coyote)

The Ukraine Thread

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Ogilive your starting to sound like Donald Rumsfeld you should run for office. tongue.png

 

America is an Empire rather than old school colonialism you dominate, military, economically and culturally around the world more than any other nation you don't need a king or even direct control. Power, influence. You may not see it because you live the Red, White And Blue you'll find your nation to be perceived much differently abroad even in allied nations. You know how many military bases you have in foreign countries its like McDonalds. 

 

As for American setting the world straight as a  great example is amusing as US is guilty of similar behaviour of Empires over the years and will continue to do so. 

 

Ask me this why do you need Middle Eastern Oil or way does China make your products if America is land of the plentiful (with people living on food banks and people committing suicide because they can't pay their healthcare)? Corporate disease controls your country.

 

Putin's the bully in the playground. It's time for some administrative action. Preferably before said bully brings a weapon to school with him.

 

Like what bring another gun? Sanctions won't work. 

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You may hate western countries BW, but bloody hell if you seem to be ignoring the problems of the other countries in this current conflict. Sure, you say that all governments are bad, but you go out of your way to criticize the US in this case when this is probably the best time for the US to be involved. This isn't Iraq or Iran, this is a situation involving one country about to absorb another one through intimidation, yet here you are just complaining about the US. You know we have a general politics thread for that you know?

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America is an Empire rather than old school colonialism you dominate, military, economically and culturally around the world more than any other nation you don't need a king or even direct control. Power, influence. You may not see it because you live the Red, White And Blue you'll find your nation to be perceived much differently abroad even in allied nations. You know how many military bases you have in foreign countries its like McDonalds.

Oh I know all about perception of American involvement. People tend to resent foreign influence no matter where it comes from. The eye tends to always go towards whoever is the biggest, though.  

 

As for American setting the world straight as a  great example is amusing as US is guilty of similar behaviour of Empires over the years and will continue to do so.

You imply we could never change. It's like saying humans are too greedy, so we should just give up on finding an alternative to capitalism.

This is also a case where for once our strategic goals are moral. We should go full speed ahead with supporting Ukrainian independence.

 

Ask me this why do you need Middle Eastern Oil or way does China make your products if America is land of the plentiful (with people living on food banks and people committing suicide because they can't pay their healthcare)? Corporate disease controls your country.

 

I've no idea why we bother with Middle Eastern oil, to be honest. An economic analysis shows that the oil embargo hurt the Arabs more than it hurt us in the long run. I presume we just want to have alternative options - we don't want Canada or Mexico to get too comfortable in their position. Europe knows the perils of letting a foreign country control its fuel all too well.

China makes our products because we are a service economy and it's more efficient at this point to outsource most manufacturing jobs. It benefits us in the long run due to comparative advantage. Economics isn't zero sum; the long-awaited collapse of the US economy due to outsourcing STILL hasn't happened. It's bullcrap. People just associate manufacturing with prosperity in America because in the 1950s, it really was the source of our power; this was an era where Europe was in ruins, though.

I never said America was perfect, either. We have lots of room for improvement.

But if any country has the potential to set an example, it would be us. We have more power and influence than any other. The European Union boasts about being the world's largest economy, but they're not a country. They're dozens of countries with dozens of languages and dozens of different foreign policies trying to be a country, and failing.

 

Like what bring another gun? Sanctions won't work.

 

A few options come to mind. Sanctions as currently described only work against a country that has a strong economy.

Option A. Make them bankrupt themselves, like happened with the Cold War. There was such a spike in Western defense spending that the Soviet Union's crap economy couldn't keep up and so Gorby called off the Cold War since he knew Russia couldn't hope to win with the status quo.

Option B. Theoretically one could arm their ethnic minorities and incite them to try and secede. The logistics of such would be a pain, however.

Option C. This would be the most peaceful and likely most effective, but it's impractical. Make it so people stop buying their gas. They'll change their tune quick when one of their biggest sources of money evaporates.

I'd have suggested diplomatic dialogue first and foremost, but there are some people words cannot reach.

The Ukrainian government is refusing to remove troops from Crimea. Hoo boy, it sounds like shit is starting to get more real.

 

Secession rarely goes well.

 

Crimea is likely going to become a warzone.

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Oh I know all about perception of American involvement. People tend to resent foreign influence no matter where it comes from. The eye tends to always go towards whoever is the biggest, though.  

 

You imply we could never change. It's like saying humans are too greedy, so we should just give up on finding an alternative to capitalism.

 

 

 

You could, but you won't. You won't touch any form of socialism for a start. Corporations and complexes are so far up your government ass you're country won't change that goes for the rest of Europe, your no different, better or exceptional and you won't convince me otherwise.

 

I have no love for the EU either another American Frankenstein. 

 

America has been setting an example for the world for more than 50 years everybody just bends over and takes it. Obey your master.

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Then I suppose we'll just have to acknowledge realpolitik as permanent and take advantage of it when it serves the human good.

In this case, it does. Western intervention in Ukraine is a good thing, just as it was in Kuwait and South Korea.

 

Hope you like lead underwear then.

 

Conflicting reports are coming in of Russian or Ukrainian storm on a military complex. Don't know who is to blame but all I know is that war in Crimea is now more imminent.

 

 

You may hate western countries BW, but bloody hell if you seem to be ignoring the problems of the other countries in this current conflict. Sure, you say that all governments are bad, but you go out of your way to criticize the US in this case when this is probably the best time for the US to be involved. This isn't Iraq or Iran, this is a situation involving one country about to absorb another one through intimidation, yet here you are just complaining about the US. You know we have a general politics thread for that you know?

 

Thank you for that ignorant condescending post. For your information I hate all governments including my own which I hate more than your USA. Perhaps you should see my General UK thread?

 

I am not ignoring the situation of Ukraine I got off topic with Ogilive. In fact I have been following the situation very closely I would post in the General American Thread but I know my thoughts would just piss you off.

 

Good old Marky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBmWTVr7qAA

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Thank you for that ignorant condescending post. For your information I hate all governments including my own which I hate more than your USA. Perhaps you should see my General UK thread?

 

I am not ignoring the situation of Ukraine I got off topic with Ogilive. In fact I have been following the situation very closely I would post in the General American Thread but I know my thoughts would just piss you off.

 

Good old Marky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBmWTVr7qAA

 

 

I don't care what you think about America. You're just another cynic to me, and I understand the reasons for being one. But right now, it's a matter of priorities. Russia is the clear aggressor in this conflict and focusing on the atrocities of the US just diverts focus.

 

I'm sorry my post came off as ignorant, and that I came off as a defender of the US, but I just am having trouble finding the relevance of this topic about who is more corrupt than who. 

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Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk says the Crimea crisis has entered a "military stage" after troops stormed an army base in Simferopol.

 

One Ukrainian soldier has reportedly died after being shot in the neck when a group of gunmen attacked the compound.

 

Regional defence ministry spokesman Vladislav Seleznyov said a second soldier was wounded in the attack.

 

Mr Seleznyov did not specify whether the base was stormed by Russian soldiers or pro-Kremlin militia patrolling the area.

 

http://news.sky.com/story/1227970/soldier-killed-as-gunmen-storm-crimea-base

 

b0e.gif

 

 

Incidentally, not sure if this has been discussed in here yet, but when the Crimean secession referendum was held, only two choices were given to voters:

 

[...] the ballot papers themselves offered only two choices - one option of full union with Russia, the other of almost complete independence from the rest of Ukraine. There was no option to retain the status quo and retain existing links with Ukraine’s pro-Western government, as some in Crimea would prefer.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10700496/Crimea-votes-to-become-part-of-Russia-again.html

 

Is the status quo really all that untenable, or were the referendum's choices loaded on purpose by biased officials? Me thinky the latter.

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Yeah, this vote was pure bullshit from the very beginning. I wish Putin was just satirizing the failings of democracy in a lot of places in only giving two viable choices rather than a full range but it's pretty obvious that he wasn't.

The Archduke of this conflict has been shot, and it's only going to get worse from here.

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Yeah, this vote was pure bullshit from the very beginning. I wish Putin was just satirizing the failings of democracy in a lot of places in only giving two viable choices rather than a full range but it's pretty obvious that he wasn't.

The Archduke of this conflict has been shot, and it's only going to get worse from here.

 

The people of Ukraine are gonna need to brace themselves for the worst. And the people of Crimea had best take care of themselves. I have a feeling that's going to be the centerpiece of it all.

 

if Ukraine aims to get Russia off their backs, I see that going bad for them. If the US gets involved though, that will be an interesting mess. Now maybe if this upcoming conflict is based entirely on defense from our side, maybe that'll keep this from upscaling like WW1 did with it's alliance garbage. Let's just hope.

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On March 18th the self-declared prime minister of Crimea, Sergei Aksyonov, declared that in the coming spring young Ukrainians, Russians, and Tatars of Crimea will be drafted into the Russian army. In Russia, conscription is mandatory for all male citizens age 18-27.

 

“After becoming a part of  Crimea, Crimea will operate under the Russian Constitution. Crimea will also fall under the jurisdiction of other Russian laws. Among these will be enlisting into the Russian army [...] conscripts will serve across the country, including in Dagestan and Chechnya and the North Caucasus in general.”

 

http://ukrainianpolicy.com/aksyonov-says-crimeans-will-face-mandatory-conscription-into-russian-military/

 

Yeah, deploying Ukrainians against Ukrainians and Tatar Muslims v Chechen Muslims. That'll definitely not cause any problems.

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What's the economic situation in Crimea? I understand it's home to an important Russian naval base, but acquiring a whole new territory comes with more than just a brief swelling of national pride for supporters of the conqueror... Is it going to be an asset to the Federation, or an albatross around Putin's neck, or does it even matter either way?

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You rely on Russian gas, and it has been used to stranglehold your country multiple times. Unless you don't consider Ukraine and Russia two separate countries. 

 

Honestly, being a 50% Russian and 50% Ukrainian, I see them both as 1 country, and I prefer to look at it as a loving embrace rather than a stranglehold.

My ancestors lived on both territories during the era of the Soviet Union, and they migrated freely between them without ever feeling as foreigners.

My family is pro-Eurasian Uinion, pro-restoration of the Soviet Union.

The only "bully in the school playground" that I see here is the USA attempting to force 2 brothers to quarrell with each other, while Putin is the voice of reason.

Builying and threatening us with sanctions? Preposterous and foolish. tongue.png

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I agree, Europe should totally get to annex the rest of the world again. They were all united at some point, after all!

That logic is preposterous. Ukraine does not want this, or they'd have voted to join Russia ages ago.

Those troops were not invited. They are invaders, pure and simple. No amount of "brotherhood" justifies sending your military into another country without the host country's permission. Otherwise we'd have invaded Mexico a long time ago to deal with their internal issues, since it's clear they can't do it themselves.

We're not saying Ukraine can't be close to Russia, which is what you're assuming. We're saying it's wrong for Russia to invade the country.

No "you too" logic will save you here. That's a Grade A fallacy. Russia has no place in the Ukraine. It's an independent country, and that's all there is to it. Russia lost it, and it just has to suck it up.

The West's position is not comparable. We're defending a country that was invaded. Even if we did send in troops, it would be with Kiev's permission in all likelihood. Kind of different from what Putin did. There's a difference between murder and killing in defense of another; this is basic law, and the same principle applies to foreign policy.

The Russian Empire and its successor, the USSR, was a prisonhouse of nationalities. Their demise was a good thing, since they were both built on the backs of subject peoples. The Ukrainians want their own country. The West can respect that, but Russia doesn't seem to want to. Then again Russia seems to think that their rule over the countries was sunshine and cookies. No, it was filled with repression and even outright genocide; they broke off for a reason. Independence isn't pursued lightly; while elites can manipulate the process, there's usually a legitimate grievance.

 

Russia has no more right to Ukraine than America has to the Philippines, a former territory of ours.

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http://news.yahoo.com/ukraines-crimea-taken-commander-detained-133446927.html

 

 

The ministry said in its statement that Rear Adm. Sergei Haiduk was detained by unknown people after the storming of the fleet headquarters. The Russian state ITAR-Tass news agency reported that he was being questioned by Crimean prosecutors.

 

Ukraine's defense minister and deputy prime minister had planned to travel to Crimea on Wednesday in what they said was a bid to avert an escalation in hostilities.

 

The prime minister in Crimea warned after the announcement of their departure that they would be turned back, however.

 

"They are not welcome in Crimea," Sergei Aksyonov was quoted as saying by the Interfax news agency. "They will not be allowed to enter Crimea. They will be sent back."

 

Interfax later cited Welfare Minister Lyudmila Denisova as saying the officials had been denied entry to Crimea. She said an emergency session of the National Security and Defense Council will held in response.

 

Yep, there aren't gonna be peace talks anytime soon.

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Ukraine's leadership sounds all too eager to pull an Abe Lincoln on the subject of Crimea, so yeah, this isn't going to go anywhere. Both sides have goals that are fundamentally opposed. This argument is going to be settled solely through combat.

 

Mark Levin is a conservative talkshow host, and while I normally disagree with such viewpoints, he said upon Russia's invasion of Georgia that if we're willing to arm tyrants in Egypt and Arabia, we should also give help to republics. I agree fully, and I hope we help Ukraine more than we did Georgia. If we don't send troops, we should definitely send them weapons.

 

I'm just sad that all the moderate Russians who are against this sort of behavior are drowned out by the supporters of this warmongering demagogue.

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The best course of action for the US to take now is to come to the defense of Ukraine in the case that Russia retaliates with open war. We should not participate in any recapture of Crimea, because that would be sending our soldiers to the slaughter as Russia brings down whole numbers of troops from right next door. 

 

As much as I dislike that idea, it would be the best way to keep stability in Ukraine, and get Russia off their backs without bringing our soldiers to a grinder. Crimea may have had a faulty election, but we can't just force it back into Ukraine for it without expecting strong retaliation from Russia and from those inside the region, especially since Russia may be using guerrilla tactics of mixing common people with soldiers. Our troops need to keep the borders of Ukraine safe from Russian infiltration to keep things like what happened in Crimea from happening in all of Eastern Ukraine.

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The best course of action for the US to take now is to come to the defense of Ukraine in the case that Russia retaliates with open war. We should not participate in any recapture of Crimea, because that would be sending our soldiers to the slaughter as Russia brings down whole numbers of troops from right next door. 

 

As much as I dislike that idea, it would be the best way to keep stability in Ukraine, and get Russia off their backs without bringing our soldiers to a grinder. Crimea may have had a faulty election, but we can't just force it back into Ukraine for it without expecting strong retaliation from Russia and from those inside the region, especially since Russia may be using guerrilla tactics of mixing common people with soldiers. Our troops need to keep the borders of Ukraine safe from Russian infiltration to keep things like what happened in Crimea from happening in all of Eastern Ukraine.

 

The US and EU is already doing that right now with rather weak sanctions. Do you mean to put American troops on the ground in Ukraine?

 

That is probably a worst case scenario at best and far from ideal. I know you dislike it yourself but here are some possible consequences of that action.

 

How do you think the American people will respond to that idea after Afghanistan and Iraq too very unpopular conflicts? Its still too fresh in peoples minds that is why among the removal of Syria's chemical weapons that intervention in Syria fell flat on its arse, total lack of public support.

 

This course of action could lead to a bigger conflict not only that but make it look like the US is "occupying" Ukraine by the protesters in the East and The Right Sector who hate the West as much as they hate Russia. America needs to keep itself looking like it is in the "moral right" here that could ruin that image not to mention as I have said the lack of public support, Fox News and CNN can only do so much to shore up support for intervention. 

 

The country is extremely unstable. It is like Chernobyl's reactor was before its meltdown, many factions the current government has barely any control over, its grip in the East is being lost by the second and they have no control over the The Right Sector Paramilitaries Neo-Fascists (John McCain's buddies) are trying to start a conflict with Russia and Ukraine chances are they would try and start a war between Russia and the US as well if the US got involved.

 

The US could get caught up in a civil war there without Russia's involvement. Also remember this would mean US troops right on Russia's doorstep how do you think that will go down with them? Its a really bad idea.

 

I don't think the West will do much other than these sanctions and like Ogilive said the US CIA covertly arm Ukraine if a conflict breaks out, that is of course until they are found arming the neo-fascists by mistake or otherwise they will mostly likely stop and try to smooth things over with the public along with possible UN condemnation.

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America can do a lot to help Ukraine without putting boots on the ground, which won't happen given America's war weariness. Intelligence sharing, bringing in expertise and resources and money and equipment, promoting west-friendly politicians, providing economic aid; making the free Ukraine a stronger ally of the west and maybe eventually a NATO member would do a lot. It's like what we already do with Israel, and look how well that turned out for the Israelis - they now have one of the most feared intelligence agencies on the planet, they're developing top of the line weapons tech, their economy's booming etc. I know Ukraine isn't the most likely target of such aid, but it might give Putin pause if we begin strengthening them and the Baltic states against potential Russian interference.

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America can do a lot to help Ukraine without putting boots on the ground, which won't happen given America's war weariness. Intelligence sharing, bringing in expertise and resources and money and equipment, promoting west-friendly politicians, providing economic aid; making the free Ukraine a stronger ally of the west and maybe eventually a NATO member would do a lot. It's like what we already do with Israel, and look how well that turned out for the Israelis - they now have one of the most feared intelligence agencies on the planet, they're developing top of the line weapons tech, their economy's booming etc. I know Ukraine isn't the most likely target of such aid, but it might give Putin pause if we begin strengthening them and the Baltic states against potential Russian interference.

 

Yeah Israel a great western ally which that does whatever it wants and gets away with more illegal acts then America and Russia put together. Not a good example in my opinion.

 

They need to start by removing the power of fascists groups in Ukraine but they made a collation with other parties against the previous government. I don't think we should deal with a country that beats and intimidates its own media, can't believe they filmed that. A legal fair election such be held before we get into bed with them if that fails then the writing is on the wall. 

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America can do a lot to help Ukraine without putting boots on the ground, which won't happen given America's war weariness. Intelligence sharing, bringing in expertise and resources and money and equipment, promoting west-friendly politicians, providing economic aid; making the free Ukraine a stronger ally of the west and maybe eventually a NATO member would do a lot. It's like what we already do with Israel, and look how well that turned out for the Israelis - they now have one of the most feared intelligence agencies on the planet, they're developing top of the line weapons tech, their economy's booming etc. I know Ukraine isn't the most likely target of such aid, but it might give Putin pause if we begin strengthening them and the Baltic states against potential Russian interference.

 

I prefer that idea for sure. 

 

Any action is better than no action. I am not one to believe in this huge fascist group talk at all, (or not as concerned with it as I am Russia at the current time). At this time if we do nothing, Ukraine will slowly fall apart as Russia takes over bit by bit like they did with Crimea by getting their own insurgents on the soil and intimidating pro-independent Ukrainians into joining with Russia. 

 

If we do nothing and distract ourselves with this talk of fascists and radicals, there will be no Ukraine by that point.

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