The Ukraine Thread

[VO.SUPER]

http://news.yahoo.com/crimea-besieged-ukraine-control-power-water-163357319.html

 

Energy Crisis happening in Crimea. 

 

To be honest, this was to be expected. You're not part of the country anymore, so you shouldn't have as easy access to those resources. Raised prices were to be expected.

[Tani Coyote]

They act like this is unfair, which is amusing. No... it's standard business practice. If they're going Russian, all the rights and privileges of a unified market with Ukraine are gone for the time being. They have to re-negotiate utility contracts and the like, just like a foreign country would.

 

Russia will probably alleviate the issue soon anyway, but it's humorous Crimeans are acting like this is unexpected. If anything it's Ukraine conceding they no longer control the peninsula - they've revoked the privileges of Ukrainian status for the entire peninsula. This is a consequence of switching nationalities.

 

Dual citizenship is off the table I think. I think Kiev's basically saying, "You're either Ukrainian or Russian in nationality, and can't be both." Whichever country you go with is the economy that you're tied into... and Crimea decided it wants to be part of Russia's economy, i.e. they are no longer Ukraine's problem.

[Patticus]

Could Ukraine offer Crimeans who want to remain Ukrainian a free pass to come up north?

[Tani Coyote]

I really hope they would. Population transfers don't always go well, but relaxing restrictions for people who were in Crimea but pro-Ukraine so they can leave the area easily would be a good move.

After America took the Southwest, we allowed all Mexican citizens the option of becoming U.S. citizens (and renouncing Mexican citizenship if I'm not mistaken), or leaving. Not sure what Mexico did on their end, though.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

After America took the Southwest, we allowed all Mexican citizens the option of becoming U.S. citizens (and renouncing Mexican citizenship if I'm not mistaken), or leaving. Not sure what Mexico did on their end, though.

Absolutely hilarious how smoothly that kind of immigration was in such a xenophobic and bloody time period compared to now. (yes, I know that's a hell of a stretch)

[VO.SUPER]

Here's an update of the situation. Pro-Russian extremists are causing destruction in Eastern Ukraine, and in a recent gun fight, three have been left dead.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-russia-trade-blame-eastern-shootout-140213905.html

 

 

 

BYLBASIVKA, Ukraine (AP) — Ukraine and Russia traded blame Sunday for a shootout at a checkpoint manned by pro-Russia insurgents in eastern Ukraine that left at least three people dead and others with gunshot wounds.

 

Horrible mess; and Russia isn't helping with their propoganda.

 

 

 

Russian state media have been feeding fears among the Russian-speaking population in eastern Ukraine that their lives are in danger because of the Right Sector.

[188Eternal]

My family doesn't support violent extremists. We just want for there to be a federated government, and we're happy that my grandma would be getting her pension increased.

'Nuff said.

[Tani Coyote]

Nationalist sentiments are on a collision course. Violence is inevitable when that happens. Talks break down, and might makes right in those situations. I would not be surprised if in a decade or two, the non-Russians of Crimea are suffering a situation similar to what the Palestinian Arabs have right now.

In the Western parts of Europe, World War II sealed the deal and convinced Europeans they should try and cooperate rather than blowing each other up in wars every few years. Never before in modern history had nationalism been so destructive: besides the tens of millions killed in the crossfire of the German, Italian and Japanese efforts to attain national glory, you had eleven million more branded as being un-German or otherwise inferior to Germans, before being marked for extermination. The average European person concluded, "you know, this nationalist shit is kind of stupid. Let's be friends instead."

With how much Russia suffered during the Second World War, it's amazing they didn't undergo a similar soul searching. I guess the scars of the Cold War run deeper than the scars of World War II. Understandable, given the scars of the Cold War run pretty deep here even without the huge loss of life.

[Patticus]

Speaking of World War 2...

 

Jews in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk where pro-Russian militants have taken over government buildings were told they have to "register" with the Ukrainians who are trying to make the city become part of Russia, according to Israeli media.

 

Jews emerging from a synagogue say they were handed leaflets that ordered the city's Jews to provide a list of property they own and pay a registration fee "or else have their citizenship revoked, face deportation and see their assets confiscated," reported Ynet News, Israel's largest news website.

 

Fuck.

Shades of Nazi-era Europe and 19th century Russia much? And yes, the flyer is, to my knowledge, quite real. At least in so far as it has been distributed, but Pushilin has denied he has anything to do with it... not that a denial means anything at this point.

Regardless of the veracity of the leaflet, the entire pro-Jewish lobbyist community will be putting pressure on the US government to act decisively, which could well escalate things.

[Tani Coyote]

And yet it's the Ukrainian government who are being called fascists in all this... when as far as I can tell, the only really nationalist thing they've done is supporting Ukrainian as a national language. Holy crap, that's totally far right and makes no economic sense at all.

 

Why am I getting the feeling this is going to be a Stalin versus Hitler-esque situation of there being no real good guys here?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Why am I getting the feeling this is going to be a Stalin versus Hitler-esque situation of there being no real good guys here?

Maybe because history seems to be repeating itself in a new coat of paint again?

[Tani Coyote]

That would stand to reason.

 

I think the Cold War hampered the willingness of the US and USSR to change. While Western Europe combined capitalism, democracy, social safety nets and multiculturalism quite well over the course of the Cold War,  nationalism and militarism seem to still run pretty deeply in the former Soviet territories (especially Russia) and the USA. While Russia's socialist origins naturally make it more open to the idea of government programs of varying sorts, I think the failures of the Yeltsin era have convinced many of the citizens that it's best to take a raincheck on Western ideas on economics, culture and foreign policy.

 

Unfortunate, but it is what it is. If even a world war wasn't enough to break nationalist sentiments in the post-Soviet territories, I'm not sure what can. For different reasons, both the U.S. and Russia have lived within their own bubbles, and I'm not sure what can change that short of a few generations passing by, and even that's not a guarantee.

[Rinzler]

Fire in Odessa Kills about 40 people:

http://cccp-revivel.blogspot.com/2014/05/how-the-thugs-killed-dessa-inhabitants-in-the-trade-unions-house-the-details-of-bloody-scenario.html

Some rather graphic images so beware.

[user71 #us]

Пишите правду! Задолбали уже лгать! Когда это закончится! Война - это плохо! Мир на планете надо! 

 

 

#saveourguys