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Downward Spiral of Characterization and Plot

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I am for believable portrayals of such.

What is a believable portrayal in your mind, then? What, specifically, did they do wrong in portraying one of these things in SLoW and how do you think it should be done "right"?

Previous games doing that doesn't vindicate what Colours and SLW do and to act otherwise is a double standard.

Never once said it did. My point was only that these problems were not part of some new "downward spiral", but they've been with the series for a long time. When people start complaining about the last few games' stories sometimes it starts to sound like some serious revisionist history where everything was fine and dandy until the new writers came in and dumbed it down.

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I'm sorry, but what? Your ideology is exactly why the games have gone downhill. Why does being a talking animal mean Sonic can't have a compelling plot? I'd rather play a game that tries too hard with its story than one that doesn't try at all.

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Really cause I thought the games went downhill when they tried to make the plot deep and compelling and they failed because people point out the many plotholes and inconsistencies of those games(Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 06). That's not even getting into the fact that with each release the story got even more of a main focus and the gameplay even worse. Now look at the Genesis games, the Advanced games, the Rush games, and Colors and Generations. The Genesis games are considered the best in the entire series, the Advanced and Rush games got better reception than the console games at the time, and Colors and Generations are considered the best 3D Sonic games out there and the funny part about it is that these gsmes had no "deep" and "compelling" story, they had fun gameplay and with a Sonic game that's all that matters.

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Which is why we should be talking about telling story through gameplay. I can't stress this enough:

 

 

Gameplay is narrative.

 

It's not that gameplay can be narrative. Gameplay is narrative. Whenever a game says "For as long as you hold this controller, you'll be this hero" and "this is the journey of this hero", the journey, plot and choices are all yours.

 

Imagine Sonic 1, except when you destroy the badniks, the flickies die too. There's no saving them. They could simply leave it implicit for some fridge horror or they could make the game count the badniks you destroy and make it affect your score, effectively telling you destroying badniks is bad. Don't we have some options of story to tell now with our own hands? This alone can characterize Sonic, and, most importantly, your Sonic with more success than Shadow the Hedgehog could ever hope to.

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Really cause I thought the games went downhill when they tried to make the plot deep and compelling and they failed because people point out the many plotholes and inconsistencies of those games(Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 06). That's not even getting into the fact that with each release the story got even more of a main focus and the gameplay even worse. Now look at the Genesis games, the Advanced games, the Rush games, and Colors and Generations. The Genesis games are considered the best in the entire series, the Advanced and Rush games got better reception than the console games at the time, and Colors and Generations are considered the best 3D Sonic games out there and the funny part about it is that these gsmes had no "deep" and "compelling" story, they had fun gameplay and with a Sonic game that's all that matters.

 

Those games failing at having a deep and compelling plot has no relevance or connection to the games getting progressively worse in gameplay. Those are two different parts of the game, and acting as if they affect each other is nothing more than a scapegoat used to justify your own point of view. Granted it is true that some games have their stories and gameplay heavily intertwined to the point that doing badly on one affects the other, but Sonic is not one of those franchises. If you want to blame poor storytelling, blame the writers. If you want to blame bad gameplay, blame the programmers.

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Really cause I thought the games went downhill when they tried to make the plot deep and compelling and they failed because people point out the many plotholes and inconsistencies of those games(Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 06).

The games went downhill in a lot of different ways at a lot of different times for a lot of different reasons. Personally I point to Heroes as to where the series overall started going downhill, and its pathetically weak story is part of the reason why.

Now look at the Genesis games, the Advanced games, the Rush games, and Colors and Generations. The Genesis games are considered the best in the entire series, the Advanced and Rush games got better reception than the console games at the time, and Colors and Generations are considered the best 3D Sonic games out there and the funny part about it is that these gsmes had no "deep" and "compelling" story, they had fun gameplay and with a Sonic game that's all that matters.

Fun gameplay is by far the most important thing in my mind, but there's value to a fun story as well. Trying to have a good story doesn't inherently weaken the gameplay, and cutting the story doesn't automatically make the game fun.

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And all of these things are EXACTLY why I never gave a shit about the Sonic characters BEFORE Colors. Remember how useful Tails was in 06, or Unleashed???? Yeah, his role is WAY diminished from how he is in the Pontac games. Eggman being an assclown? You mean the guy who DOESNT get his dumbass betrayed by the resident MOTW and actually sees his plans through to the end?? Sonic being a cocky jerk? Jerk as in him constantly worrying about Tails throughout SLOW and showing profound sadness at the mistakes he made throughout the game?  

 

Like I just can't fathom how the characters are somehow NOW "cardboard cutouts" considering what came before

I don't know what's the point of bringing up 06 and Unleashed to defend the current Tails, as he's still just as useless as in ShTH and afterwards.

 

Eggman actually got his "dumbass" betrayed by not one but six Monster of the Week in Lost World.

 

I guess we're gonna forget every event involving Sonic being a stuck-up douchebag who blatantly taunts Eggman and cracks corny jokes. Alright.

 

Also, they are cardboxes for one simple thing: They are just as awful and shit as in most Sonic games before Colors.

This...just...I...how??? I read this and I want to tear my head off and punt it into a ditch.

I just don't get how now the characters have become two dimensional cutouts. How we get through The Real Super Power of Teamwork, This Is Who I Am, and Just Smile, and we get a game where I finally feel like the characters are being treated with some amount of respect, where the writers actually have the guts to show a different side to them...and now they're two dimensional?

 

It's like, am I crazy, or is it everyone else?

I fail to see how the current games treats the Sonic characters with more respect while in that aspect it's not trying to be better than the likes of Heroes, ShTH and Sonic 06.

 

Blatantly forcing Sonic's jerkish side in our face and giving him corny jokes doesn't makes him better and more entertaining than the generic void of a hero he was before in the games I mentioned here. I admit that SLW Sonic was way better than Colors Sonic and Gens Sonic though, since it wasn't all 'Sonic is a cocky showoff and nothing else'.

 

Tails is just the same he was previously: A tool. He always relies on Sonic no matter what,  and he is just there because Sega keep insisting about shoving him next to Sonic for the sake of "brother like friendship" and they have an "unbreakable bond". And he was awful in SLW, by far the worst attempt at giving him a character.

 

The problem with Eggman is that almost everybody makes fun of him, which is understandable since it's not easy to respect a manchild with tantrum throwing problems. I mean where's is the childish but threataning doctor with the I.Q. of 300? He was better in the second half of SLW than most of the previous games though as he was written better in those parts.

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I guess we're gonna forget every event involving Sonic being a stuck-up douchebag who blatantly taunts Eggman and cracks corny jokes. Alright.

It's almost like he's got an attitude or something. I wonder where they got that idea from?

Tails is just the same he was previously: A tool. He always relies on Sonic no matter what,  and he is just there because Sega keep insisting about shoving him next to Sonic for the sake of "brother like friendship" and they have an "unbreakable bond".

You seem confused by the concept of "friendship".

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It's almost like he's got an attitude or something. I wonder where they got that idea from?

From a horrible cartoon with horrible new characters and a horrible characterization of Sonic.

 

 

You seem confused by the concept of "friendship".

That's not an excuse for Tools to be in every Sonic game since Sonic 2.

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I don't know what's the point of bringing up 06 and Unleashed to defend the current Tails, as he's still just as useless as in ShTH and afterwards.

 

Eggman actually got his "dumbass" betrayed by not one but six Monster of the Week in Lost World.

 

I guess we're gonna forget every event involving Sonic being a stuck-up douchebag who blatantly taunts Eggman and cracks corny jokes. Alright.

 

 

1: That was sarcasm, and I guess saving the world in SLoW is means he's EXACTLY the same useless toolbox yep

2: Eggman got betrayed by the D6 and spent the entire game getting his shit back and usurping them at the end

3: Oh wow, the hero taunting the villain, TRULY Sonic is a monster without comparison.

 

Also, they are cardboxes for one simple thing: They are just as awful and shit as in most Sonic games before Colors.

Except the characters have more then one personality setting and, like I said, have personal strengths and faults which haven't been seen in YEARS. 

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Really cause I thought the games went downhill when they tried to make the plot deep and compelling and they failed because people point out the many plotholes and inconsistencies of those games(Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 06). That's not even getting into the fact that with each release the story got even more of a main focus and the gameplay even worse. Now look at the Genesis games, the Advanced games, the Rush games, and Colors and Generations. The Genesis games are considered the best in the entire series, the Advanced and Rush games got better reception than the console games at the time, and Colors and Generations are considered the best 3D Sonic games out there and the funny part about it is that these gsmes had no "deep" and "compelling" story, they had fun gameplay and with a Sonic game that's all that matters.

The best games are the ones that compel the player in more than one aspect alone. Just like film is a medium capable of delivering a vast array of genres and stories, gaming is a very flexible medium (arguably even more so than film) which, in the hands of a really creative artist, can be absolutely amazing from a visual, musical, narrative, and gameplay standpoint. There are very many games that do exactly this much better than Sonic has ever since Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

Again, I point to Ratchet and Clank. This is where Sonic should be in the hands of a capable developer, in my opinion.

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From a horrible cartoon with horrible new characters and a horrible characterization of Sonic.

That's not an excuse for Tools to be in every Sonic game since Sonic 2.

 

Sonic always had an attitude since the very beginning and now it's a problem?

 

Tails likes hanging out with Sonic, so why shouldn't they be going to adventures together after all the history they had?

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Eggman actually got his "dumbass" betrayed by not one but six Monster of the Week in Lost World.

 

He was better in the second half of SLW than most of the previous games though as he was written better in those parts.

 

Basically, you think the current Eggman is a dumbass because he got betrayed. And yet you say that Eggman he's way way better in the second half of SLW.

 

Make up your mind, do you like the current Eggman or not?

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From a horrible cartoon with horrible new characters and a horrible characterization of Sonic.

 

Pointless squabbles on the debatable qualities on it aside, said show was not the only one who portrayed Sonic as having an attitude: Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog; Sonic Underground; the Archie and Fleetway comics; heck, even the Sonic OVA and Sonic X (to a somewhat downplayed degree) featured such a Sonic; and from the looks of thing, Sonic Boom will most certainly follow suit. Feel free to dislike this particular "quirk" of the main Blue Blur to your heart's content, but don't act like it doesn't have precedence in the overall history of the franchise.

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1: That was sarcasm, and I guess saving the world in SLoW is means he's EXACTLY the same useless toolbox yep

2: Eggman got betrayed by the D6 and spent the entire game getting his shit back and usurping them at the end

3: Oh wow, the hero taunting the villain, TRULY Sonic is a monster without comparison.

 

 

 

Except the characters have more then one personality setting and, like I said, have personal strengths and faults which haven't been seen in YEARS. 

1: Yeah, after 9 years he did something to support Sonic.

2: Actually, Sonic did most of it while Eggman was planning on destroying Sonic after he dealt with the Deadly 

3: That wasn't the point of my comment BTW.

 

Sonic always had an attitude since the very beginning and now it's a problem?

 

Tails likes hanging out with Sonic, so why shouldn't they be going to adventures together after all the history they had?

Well, if going over-the-top with having an attitude isn't a problem than I don't know what is.

 

Maybe because Sonic isn't going to be on his side forever? So he should learn that and not following him everywhere he goes?

You act like that's the only media to ever portray Sonic with an attitude. 

 

Come on, man.

I didn't. Atleast I didn't meant to act like that.

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I didn't. Atleast I didn't meant to act like that.

You brushed off Diogene's response on the basis that it's from a "horrible" cartoon with "horrible" new characters, as if that's supposed to dismiss years upon years of universal marketing. How else are we supposed to interpret what you said?

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Well, if going over-the-top with having an attitude isn't a problem than I don't know what is.

 

Maybe because Sonic isn't going to be on his side forever? So he should learn that and not following him everywhere he goes?

 

 

Well Sonic' mocking is justified since he knows he can beat Eggman and you are aware that Eggman is the main villain, the same guy who threatened Sonic that he'll kill Amy in SA2 right?

 

Then how would Sonic reach the Lost Hex or hack into Eggman's computer in Lost world then?

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Then how would Sonic reach the Lost Hex or hack into Eggman's computer in Lost world then?

 

It probably would have been better if he didn't reach lost hex

 

*plotshot*

 

The character writing might have improved slightly, but they still can't write a story plot for shit, yeah lets throw some ancient hidden world into the story by saying "this must be lost hex!" with no context or introduction as to how Tail's knew what it was.

 

Even if the character writing is slightly better executed, they still managed to sour me with how Tail's seems to undermine Sonic in every aspect most of the time, the story was pretty much hijacked by Tail's new character as Sonic played the stupid jock character than dun-goofed and cracked lame puns or simply was an accessory to what Tail's had been saying during cut scenes. The more I think about Lost World, the more angry I get with Sonic's current portrayal.

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Even if the character writing is slightly better executed, they still managed to sour me with how Tail's seems to undermine Sonic in every aspect most of the time, the story was pretty much hijacked by Tail's new character as Sonic played the stupid jock character than dun-goofed and cracked lame puns or simply was an accessory to what Tail's had been saying during cut scenes. The more I think about Lost World, the more angry I get with Sonic's current portrayal.

 How did Sonic actually act like "stupid jock"? Like legitimately? When I think of stupid jock, I think of some unsympathetic douchebag who is completely egotistical and that really just isn't I saw Sonic in that game. He spends half the game being rather serious minded and searching for Tails and not cracking a single pun, his entire mindset is getting him back and when Zavok threatens Tails with Robotization he actually sounds panicked and genuinely worried, he admits his faults and (as short as the scene was) when he lost contact Knuckles and Amy it added to that depressed state. The first half of the game with sonic joking around making light of the villains? I just see that as Sonic being Sonic.

 

I guess ill just have to agree to disagree here because I don't really understand why some people think Sonic currently is just a simple minded..well..jerk.

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Well, if going over-the-top with having an attitude isn't a problem than I don't know what is.

Sonic fans have funny ideas of what the extremes actually are. You make a few taunts and jokes after years of being as safe and plain as white bread, and suddenly your attitude is "over-the-top".

I usually try to defend this fanbase but it's really getting hard, when any change to a character's personality seems to be treated like it's the end of the world.

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06's story didn't suck because it tried to be deep and compelling, it sucked because it failed to be deep and compelling and instead was just pretentious and overdramatic.

 

 

I'm not defending 06, because that game is awfully awful at trying to be serious, but I kind of agree with this. If 06's story had a few tweaks and tried to not be AS serious and deep and dark (and maybe no princess-kissing), I think it could've actually worked. A good balance is so important. 

 

But no matter the story, the gameplay still blows ass.  

 

Admittedly I haven't played Unleashed since it first came out about six years ago, so I might not be recalling it very accurately.

If this is the case I'll just on my other assertions - Ratchet & Clank: A Crack in Time is really the pinnacle of narrative in character action games for me. This is what they should be taking inspiration from. Stories in all of the games thus far (with the exception of S3&K, which did a very good job of utilizing the technology available to deliver a compelling plot) have been mediocre at best. I recall Unleashed being decent, but it's been so long I might be misremembering.

Ratchet and Clank had a game about a talking imaginary creature (Lombax) trying to learn about his heritage and past while trying to save his talking robot buddy. And it was great.

I don't like the assertion that cartoony games shouldn't even try to offer a compelling narrative.

 

I completely agree. I have always loved Ratchet and Clank, and how great the series can pull off its good balance of good story and characters while still keeping it pretty light-hearted and silly. It's more than possible for a series like Sonic to pull this off, too. I just don't get it when people say that it's impossible for Sonic to be anything but light-hearted when other series are able to do it. 

 

 

It should came as no surprise when I say Storybook games. These games proved that Sonic could be portrayed as a relentless, determined and resilient badass with prevalent arrogance yet also give him softer traits such as kindness, concern and gentleness to contrast well with them as well as establishing him as a guy who does what he wants when he wants and whichever way he wants to do it without much regard to what anyone else thinks of him, basically portraying Sonic exactly who he's been established as in multiple sources for years in such an awesome way.

 

The Storybook games were a phenomenal example of how I think Sonic should be portrayed, as well has having a decent plot. Along with SA and SA2, I thought these 4 games were a shining example of how I think the Sonic series can have a perfect combination of a good story and good character personalities, and still keep a fun, lighthearted, and even goofy atmosphere. 

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