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Downward Spiral of Characterization and Plot

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My apologies if I have become a contrarian, it may just be down to the fact that, despite the debating I just don't find the examples used for such a case to be that well implemented (Archie and SA2 I feel still try too hard to put very alien stuff into Sonic for the sake of grandiose drama, and also attempt to dilute the whimsy a bit too much or alter the cast into different more serious archetypes (or demote them to comic relief) than exploit what's already there). It may also due to the choice of wording such as 'dark' that people constantly use for an ideal heavy plotline. I think the more I look at my own arguments the more I feel I can't really pinpoint what I want.

 

It would help if you'd compromise instead of just labeling anything that attempts to be complex as "Pretentious dark shit that doesn't fit the series".

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Because I simply CAN'T keep my mouth shut, I'll add a couple words to my last post.

 

Do you know why a good story is often called a convincing story? Let's take the airship post by 'Penthe once again. What is it that makes storytelling interesting? It's about one question that is followed by an answer, which in turn lights another question, in a succession of pushing and pulling of ideas that forms a coherent whole that makes the final answer seem absolute, like a resolve, like it was the only possible answer to the first question, right from the start.

 

You know what also is based on these principles? Rhetoric. It doesn't tell stories, but is based on the very same principles that make a good story, a good plot.

 

That's because where rhetoric and narrative intersects, we have what we call storytelling. That doesn't mean it's the only actual way we have to tell stories. Older cartoons loved not to be rhetoric all the time. Things happened because they needed to happen and you'd go "what" and laugh, but simply accept that a cow could become a gramophone by swallowing a violin and having its tail maneuvered like a handle. But it is a story, even if it would sound like a blatant lie if someone told someone else about it. The question of how things happen or even what for goes unanswered, but that doesn't diminish Mickey's funny sketches from Steamboat Willie in any way.

 

So there are various intersections, you know? Rhetoric and the narrative, narrative and medium, medium and society and so forth. Games, like cartoons and movies, can tell stories without proper storytelling precisely because narrative refers to the way we organize the information we receive - I've said it before, but I must stress that we remember things by telling stories to ourselves. That's the cognitive process. We select the relevant facts and organize them. That's how narrative works, whether they obey to storytelling rules or not.

 

So games can tell complex stories in many ways, not just by obeying the rules of how to make a good drama. Likewise, a gameplay experience can be dark and pretentious shit that doesn't fir the series *by itself*. Gameplay is not just mechanics.

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Regarding plotlineplus's post, I don't think "Eggman being the main villain" automatically means "less serious," nor do I believe that Eggman's humorous nature has to be downplayed or ignored in order for an Eggman-centric plot to feel emotionally-investing. Humorous villains can be all kinds of dangerous (Joker comes to mind). 

 

Really, Eggman himself wouldn't need to be changed at all. It's how the heroes react to him that determines how seriously he's taken by the narrative. Let Eggman continue being his goofy-but-deadly self, and have the heroes actually acknowledge him as a threat instead of just brushing him off. Eggman's already succeeding at being the main antagonist and being a competent foe (Colors, Generations, Lost World); Yet Sonic still doesn't react to him with the same gravity and seriousness that he would for a monster-of-the-week antagonist.

 

In short: I think the reason some of you have a harder time taking Eggman-as-final-boss plots seriously isn't because Eggman himself is inherently less threatening than some ancient being of evil, but because Sonic regards him as less of a threat - whether he objectively is one or not. It's not what Eggman does, it's how his actions are framed by the narrative. Granted, I can see past that and appreciate an awesome scheme for what it is, but I get why the heroes taking him less seriously than other foes can be... distracting, to say the least.

 

The reason the heroes don't take Eggman very seriously is because the plots don't attempt to do so, so we're left with Eggman being more or less a harmless villain despite his status as the "Main villain". Like, Sonic's beaten Eggman in almost every single plot they've fought in, so there's no real reason for him to take Eggman very seriously unless the latter does something particularly noteworthy to take him seriously as a threat, but recently the gravity of Eggman's plans are more or less ignored so there's reason for the characters, and by extension the audience, to see him as a credible threat beyond what people tell us, ya know, instead of showing it.

 

The Deadly Six came off as more threatening than Eggman has in the past three games, and that's saying a lot actually.

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The reason the heroes don't take Eggman very seriously is because the plots don't attempt to do so, so we're left with Eggman being more or less a harmless villain despite his status as the "Main villain". Like, Sonic's beaten Eggman in almost every single plot they've fought in, so there's no real reason for him to take Eggman very seriously unless the latter does something particularly noteworthy to take him seriously as a threat, but recently the gravity of Eggman's plans are more or less ignored so there's reason for the characters, and by extension the audience, to see him as a credible threat beyond what people tell us, ya know, instead of showing it.

 

The Deadly Six came off as more threatening than Eggman has in the past three games, and that's saying a lot actually.

I think "harmless" is a bit of an exaggeration. He threatened to brainwash an entire planet in Colors, tried to rewrite history in Generations, and used a rather clever deceptive strategy to regain control of his plans after being betrayed in Lost World. We were told and shown his plans in these games, so I don't think Sega's just playing lip-service to his credibility as an enemy. He's doing things, clearly.

 

Out of curiosity, what would Eggman have to do for you to take a plot with him as the primary antagonist seriously? (I don't mean that sarcastically or confrontationally, by the way; I'm genuinely interested in what you think.)

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It's not so much what I want him to do, but rather how it's framed. You're right, all of those things would make Eggman a credible threat, but Eggman has such a lack of presence in the plot's progression nowadays that it doesn't hold as much weight as it should. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Well excuse me for wanting a decent plot for a Sonic game.

And a bit hypocritical much?

Just take a chill pill please. I want a good story too. But take the good with the bad.

I think "harmless" is a bit of an exaggeration. He threatened to brainwash an entire planet in Colors, tried to rewrite history in Generations, and used a rather clever deceptive strategy to regain control of his plans after being betrayed in Lost World. We were told and shown his plans in these games, so I don't think Sega's just playing lip-service to his credibility as an enemy. He's doing things, clearly.

Out of curiosity, what would Eggman have to do for you to take a plot with him as the primary antagonist seriously? (I don't mean that sarcastically or confrontationally, by the way; I'm genuinely interested in what you think.)

I like you. You're doing a good job of saying what I am clearly failing at.

You say you weren't trying to sound pretentious, then dismiss people who want to mix fun moments with heavier storytelling and well written plots, telling them to "go write a fucking fan-fiction?"

Real classy...

Yeah... I'm sorry about that. Honestly I'm not even sure what I meant.

I guess I was just trying to lighten the mood, then I got all pissy for some reason. Just disregard what I said. Story is important. Fun is important. But, I just don't see Sega giving us both of those any time soon.

Maybe Sonic Boom will change things.

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Just take a chill pill please. I want a good story too. But take the good with the bad.

 

Yeah my bad. You just seem to have worded it badly and I took it the wrong way, no hard feelings about it. But it's really hard to find a whole lot of good with Colors' terrible jokes and Generations' lack of plot. Lost World had a good story but it's quite lacking compared to other games like Secret Rings and Black Knight. I mean yeah it gave us quite the nice characterization between Sonic, Tails and Eggman but there is only so much Pontac and Graff can do since they know hardly nothing when it comes to Sonic and how each character works and acts.

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It would help if you'd compromise instead of just labeling anything that attempts to be complex as "Pretentious dark shit that doesn't fit the series".

In an attempt to show more open mindedness, I will admit the Storybook series were a decent attempt at trying both more complex, serious stories, and putting Sonic in something different (albeit largely because the whole gimmick was Sonic being in a world different from his rather than his default world being converted). Execution was plausible, there was still maybe a fair bit too much cheesy-ness and narm to whole ordeal, but it had decent emotional value all the same and didn't really feel like it was stepping a great line and getting highly grandiose or convoluted.

 

There are also probably a fair few more valid Archie stories than I give credit for, I just tend to find the average rather underwhelming (the Enerjak Rises arc is more on the same line as SA2 and Cosmo's death in Sonic X to me, it's executed pretty well for what it is, but it utilizes concepts and plot points I don't really feel fit the franchise).

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but it utilizes concepts and plot points I don't really feel fit the franchise.

This part right here is where I feel we will never reach a compromise on anything, because I'm not seeing as much of an open mind on the subjects and more of a shunning of them. You say the concepts and plot points don't fit, despite the execution being well done, I say it's the execution and handling of the plot points and concepts that determine where it fit - it's the whole reason I bring up outside examples after examples of it being done in other franchises, from the happy go lucky animals in Bambi until the hunter comes and kills his mom, to slapstick action comedies of Kung Fu Panda that have the tact to have subjects of death, loss, and genocide in a world of superpowered cartoon animals like Sonic, it's the alien examples to their respective franchises that you'd find acceptable to them but unacceptable to Sonic, leading to a double standard that results in these conflictions we have.

 

And part of that in particulary is because I don't like the dismissal of the ideas and concepts on what they are rather than how they're done as it's the kind of cover judging that irks the hell out of me, the either/or logic that paints a huge brush on everything without giving them any kind of a chance, or even giving them a chance only to determine that every possible alternative similar to it regardless cannot work or do not fit because of the whole concept of it - it would be like saying the concept of aliens can't fit in the franchise, whether it's the Black Arms or the Wisps, ignoring that one implementation can fit better than the other.

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This part right here is where I feel we will never reach a compromise on anything, because I'm not seeing as much of an open mind on the subjects and more of a shunning of them. You say the concepts and plot points don't fit, despite the execution being well done, I say it's the execution and handling of the plot points and concepts that determine where it fit - it's the whole reason I bring up outside examples after examples of it being done in other franchises, from the happy go lucky animals in Bambi until the hunter comes and kills his mom, to slapstick action comedies of Kung Fu Panda that have the tact to have subjects of death, loss, and genocide in a world of superpowered cartoon animals like Sonic, it's the alien examples to their respective franchises that you'd find acceptable to them but unacceptable to Sonic, leading to a double standard that results in these conflictions we have.

 

And part of that in particulary is because I don't like the dismissal of the ideas and concepts on what they are rather than how they're done as it's the kind of cover judging that irks the hell out of me, the either/or logic that paints a huge brush on everything without giving them any kind of a chance, or even giving them a chance only to determine that every possible alternative similar to it regardless cannot work or do not fit because of the whole concept of it - it would be like saying the concept of aliens can't fit in the franchise, whether it's the Black Arms or the Wisps, ignoring that one implementation can fit better than the other.

Some Sonic games have touched darker aspects however, and have treated them occasionally with more tact and in a way that compliments the franchise (SA1 for example features genocide and war and experimenting on animals, but does so with the proper whimsy, fantasy and moderation that fits the tone of the original games and stays very true to the mythos of the franchise). Bambi and his friends being shot at by hunters is VERY conventional to the woodland critter genre while Kung Fu Panda from what I know relies on ancient Eastern mythos for much of it's story, dark or light. That is where I feel the difference comes with the examples I made before.

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Some Sonic games have touched darker aspects however, and have treated them occasionally with more tact and in a way that compliments the franchise (SA1 for example features genocide and war and experimenting on animals, but does so with the proper whimsy, fantasy and moderation that fits the tone of the original games and stays very true to the mythos of the franchise). Bambi and his friends being shot at by hunters is VERY conventional to the woodland critter genre while Kung Fu Panda from what I know relies on ancient Eastern mythos for much of it's story, dark or light. That is where I feel the difference comes with the examples I made before.

Yet jumping into storybooks of Arabian Knights or King Arthur, plots that have barely a connection to the mythos is okay, while space colonies and secret government projects cannot? The concept of genocide, war - the elements of such that were never a part of this franchise's mytho in the past - and experimenting on animals are perfectly fine as long as they're handled with tact and made to fit the series, but the concept of soldiers and a death of a little girl are out of place for being pretentious and dark no matter what you do to make them fit? Even adding the comics, things like water gods killing echidnas (after the echindas were massacring Chao) and the soul of a surviving echidna girl are okay, but a Chaos infused god ripping such souls out of people doesn't fit? This is the double standard I'm talking about, how one seems to be handled with tact and is okay as long as it fits the series, but tact is completely irrelevant for the other because the concept or idea of such cannot fit regardless when you could easily say that about all the other stuff.

 

If it's a matter of fitting into the series, you'd think that alone would be enough for us try to compromise, because then it's not the concept that's the problem, it's the execution of themYou can execute these things much differently to make it fit with the franchise, making them less clashing by not making things in SA2 as realistic, adding a whimsy flare to it and more elements related to the mythos while still retaining plot points and the tension that went into the narrative. Again, this is a reason why I bring up those outside examples from Bambi or Kung Fu Panda, as one has a total tone change and the other, like Sonic, brings in elements completely independent of it's mythos (genocide and gruesome deaths, for example) despite it using Eastern mythos and elements, yet they still fit them. All of which is why I fail to see how the concept of genocide and war can fit Sonic even if they're depicted or described as brutal, but the concept of government raids or Maria's death cannot fit no matter what you do; that is a skewed mindset to be okay with the concept of former that is leagues more dark and horrible, and arguably more out of place, than the concept of the latter.

 

Again, we shouldn't go into extremes and betray the series in the process of adding these concepts, but moderate and flexible over them because it's not the concepts in and of themselves that result in such a risk.

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The whole point of the storybook series was Sonic being transferred from his normal world to an alien one, not his usual one being transformed to fit the new gimmick. The story pointed out it was a new gimmick out of the norm, and even then the overall tone was handled in a fantasy manner much more fitting of the series. Do I think the concept of soldiers gunning down a little girl dying of an AIDs substitute for the sake of a military cover up too dark and out of bounds for the Sonic series? YES. I do in fact. I genuinely feel there is a large difference in the handling of dark subject matter between the two Adventures as one definitely feels more subdued (albeit still poignant) and merged more carefully with the franchise's mythos. If you feel there isn't, then I'm afraid we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

I think it's a small matter in both concept AND execution, yeah there are some things that can be worked into the series if balanced properly enough, but I think there are some realistic boundaries within the franchise in how it's set up. Archie may have some flexibility in certain matters for example, but I think things such as domestic abuse and similar military executions kinda draw the line in what really fit it's target audience. Disney films do have Mood Whiplash and dark matter but it still does so in a manner that works into the audience's expectations of a warm animal picture that feels consistent.

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If Pokemon can have little girls who befriended laboratory projects dying and laboratory destruction without anyone complaining about it, then the Sonic series sure can. Outside of concept and execution, we need to remember that no series lives in a vacuum, hence how we can ascertain things like genre norms and trends in the first place. So to me, if Sonic cannot be treated like your usual Japanese children's franchises, the inherent implication is that it must skew even younger where nothing that is particularly dark, sad, or dangerous, either directly or through implication, ever happens. It's a severely off-putting view of Sonic because such a lack of contrast between such moments and happier ones makes for boring storytelling.

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If Pokemon can have little girls who befriended laboratory projects dying and laboratory destruction without anyone complaining about it, then the Sonic series sure can. Outside of concept and execution, we need to remember that no series lives in a vacuum, hence how we can ascertain things like genre norms and trends in the first place. So to me, if Sonic cannot be treated like your usual Japanese children's franchises, the inherent implication is that it must skew even younger where nothing that is particularly dark, sad, or dangerous, either directly or through implication, ever happens. It's a severely off-putting view of Sonic because such a lack of contrast between such moments and happier ones makes for boring storytelling.

I think the problem isn't darkness, it's that Sonic is usually hamfisted and overblown in its execution of darkness. SA2 was one of the few times they got it mostly right, with a relatively nuanced approach that still had a degree of lightheartedness and optimism, without really skewing the classic characters into being darker or grittier for the sake of tone. Shadow and 2K6 did not have this nuance, and were about as subtle as a locomotive, practically screaming "Look how serious we're being!"

 

Shadow being conflicted about his memories, the death of his friend, and the revenge plot implanted in his brain by his grieving creator was believable, because it was handled in a way that didn't jar too strongly with the overall franchise. Shadow toting a gun, shouting minor curses, and killing Eggman like some kind of exaggerated 90s antihero stretches the believability of his game fitting in the overall series. And I think that's what we want to avoid here. Not darkness, just really bad darkness.

 

My ideal is a nice little blend of SA2's darkness and Lost World's whimsy (or basically, a Paper Mario-esque plot with Sonic characters), especially in regard to characterization. I don't think it's impossible, and I don't think the series has to be one extreme or the other.

 

(And of course, I also think Eggman would still be a perfect antagonist in a slightly more serious story, without having to strip away the whimsical qualities that make him so entertaining. It doesn't have to be "Giant monsters or bust" to achieve a darker tone.)

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The person I quoted basically said that SA2's concepts were inherently too dark for the franchise to be entertaining them in the first place. It's fine to talk about how the execution effects the viability of the concepts used in the games, and I agree that execution is important, but it's another argument entirely to say what we can and can't even write about in the series at all, especially if debatable concepts are being used without controversy in other series of similar magnitude.

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I haven't posted in a while, so this may not be extensive as it should be.

The characterisation hasn't really entered a downward spiral. From a purely technical standpoint, the quality has actually increased. There is no way, in this universe, that you can convince me that SA1 had better writing than Lost Worlds, cause it fucking didn't.

What has changed is direction, content and intent. The franchise from 1998-2003 was very much in line with your average B-movie, but with way worse dialogue and acting. The franchise in 2004, was trying to be light and happy, but was still terrible, and somehow managed to find a way to introduce melodrama into what was supposed to be light-hearted and care-free.The franchise from 2005-2006 was more in line with JRPG's, except it was worse in every way imaginable....melodramatic and just.....terrible. From 2007-9, the franchise was effectively going through chemotherapy after the cancer that was Sonic 06 wrecked the franchises reputation worse than its predecessor, Shadow. As such it tried to go back to being more like it was from '98-'03, except with more competent writing. From 2010 to now, they're trying to go back to light-hearted, and are doing a much better job than 2004; more competent writing, but that doesn't really amount to much in the end, seeing as the content as all but disappeared.

 

If that doesn't make sense, please forgive me.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that the franchise has moved laterally more than it has moved forwards. There are gains in technical competency, but it came at the cost of ambition and desire for meatier content.

 

The end results are equally mediocre (except for the terrible stretch from '04-'06), but for different reasons.

 

 

Also, to repeat what Palas has been saying, I'm really into this idea of telling story through gameplay (though I'm not sure Sonic's gameplay can tell many stories...its supposed to be simple) and environmental design. Cutscenes and dialogue will always been needed to deliver a narrative, but I want to see more instances where Sonic Team (and anyone else who develops games for the franchise), try and give the environments more meaning than "Pretty place for Sonic to run through". Doesn't need to be too heavy handed with symbolism, but I want things to have a better sense of place in the grand scheme of things.

 

This is one of the reasons Lost World really annoys me. All it had, was prototypical level tropes (basically lifted straight from NSMB), when what it should have had; was environments. There is a difference.

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Also, to repeat what Palas has been saying, I'm really into this idea of telling story through gameplay (though I'm not sure Sonic's gameplay can tell many stories...its supposed to be simple) and environmental design. Cutscenes and dialogue will always been needed to deliver a narrative, but I want to see more instances where Sonic Team (and anyone else who develops games for the franchise), try and give the environments more meaning than "Pretty place for Sonic to run through". Doesn't need to be too heavy handed with symbolism, but I want things to have a better sense of place in the grand scheme of things.

 

This is one of the reasons Lost World really annoys me. All it had, was prototypical level tropes (basically lifted straight from NSMB), when what it should have had; was environments. There is a difference.

 

Ah, but don't worry. I don't want to put Sonic in a pedestal like its gameplay could tell stories in the way we are used to and love. It's more about a progression on which you build a narrative for yourself. Like I said before, it's more about seeing yourself in Starlight Zone or Wing Fortress and thinking "holy SHIT look how far I have gone" and to feel a slight and guilty pleasure of grandeur there, feeling pumped because you know the final showdown is near. Something you get through intuition.

 

I profoundly agree that games should have environments. Level tropes have little meaning in themselves, but when you make them part of something else, they become actual places you can relate to somehow. I know you want even more than that, but I feel like I must point that these relations have power in themselves.

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The whole point of the storybook series was Sonic being transferred from his normal world to an alien one, not his usual one being transformed to fit the new gimmick. The story pointed out it was a new gimmick out of the norm, and even then the overall tone was handled in a fantasy manner much more fitting of the series.   
It's still distances itself from the Sonic mythos, hardly being true to the series by your very words. So now you're moving the goalposts each time these things get pointed out to you.    

Do I think the concept of soldiers gunning down a little girl dying of an AIDs substitute for the sake of a military cover up too dark and out of bounds for the Sonic series? YES. I do in fact. I genuinely feel there is a large difference in the handling of dark subject matter between the two Adventures as one definitely feels more subdued (albeit still poignant) and merged more carefully with the franchise's mythos. If you feel there isn't, then I'm afraid we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
Yet, again, goddamn genocide is perfectly okay and within the series bounds? I'm not trying to be mean here, but do you not see the hypocrisy and double standards in this, a overall concept that is a whole magnitude darker and more brutal than a military cover up yet it is perfectly fine for a the Sonic series because it fits the series mythos? No matter what is done to make it more fitting, it just cannot work under any circumstances, period? It really doesn't make any sense.   And on the subject of the concept, if I were to exchange the bullets for energy blasts, change the soldiers from looking this this to this, give the GUN robots more life to them, balance it with more noticeable optimistic moments that were already present and bring it more in line with the franchise's mythos, it would still be too dark and out of bounds for the series because it's still a little girl dying in a military cover up? Then yeah, I think that says enough from me of how we just cannot compromise on this.    

Disney films do have Mood Whiplash and dark matter but it still does so in a manner that works into the audience's expectations of a warm animal picture that feels consistent.
Yet even wanting to do this for Sonic, there are certain kinds of dark matter that no matter how much you try to make it fit, no matter how much tact you put into it, and no matter how well you execute it, it isn't for Sonic. Genocide is okay, military cover ups are not.   I really can't follow that train of thought, man.

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(Yes, I know this is obscenely old, but I’m bored and we still know nothing about the next Sonic game)

I still find it quite funny how the tides have turned over the years.  Unleashed went from a panned game, just because of something that isn’t even that big of a problem, whose main praise was that it’s better than 06 to a fan favorite thanks to being the last game with interesting lore, great characters, a fun but at the same time serious story, beautiful aesthetics, and to some like yours truly (though I always thought this) the Werehog being very fun.

Colors on the other hand...  At 1st it was a fan favorite, but now it’s known as the game that ruined the future of the franchise (although I sincerely think this is the worst it got post Unleashed.  Generations’ story was boring, but that’s better than irritating in my eyes, Lost World was a HUUUGGGEEE improvement, and I found some merit in Forces).

Edited by Miles Storzillo
Need to fix a sentence

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Didn't read every post here cause my god they're walls of text... But from what I've read, and I'm not sure it was ever addressed, there's a lot of praise for SLW's characterizations and ugh... It's almost physically pains that we've come so far in this broken mess of a franchise that we can praise something like that.

If you dig through my minimal post history, you'd see I think SLW is a pretty underrated game and can be pretty fun at times, so it's not that I have anything against it. But man... I simply cannot in good faith say it's characterization was good. it was pathetic... You can't just flip a character's tone 180° out of nowhere like they did with that stupid Eggman cutscene and with the whole tails getting jealous stuff. Just because it broke the "Sonic Colors&Gens" mold doesn't make it good. It's not about things happening for the sake of happening, it's always always been about execution, and SLW's execution was a dreadful and sad wet fart attempt at trying to be "serious" or having "characterization". It's just as bad of an approach. It's something I think the franchise should never ever look back at foldly, cause if we... Hooo boy we'll just be burying ourself in further complacency and pathetic writing.

And while we are at it, for the love god I hope they don't use supporting characters like they did in Forces... Knuckles pretending to be a military leader and Amy looking up readings and data is just nonsense. Not only does it completely and utterly have no commonality with their already established characters and doesn't build on anything we know about them, but you can literally put just about any other character or a random npc in their place and it would not have mattered.

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5 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Man, these old ass posts are the funniest things I've read in a while.

Hindsight is hilarious.

You’d be laughing even more if this forum didn’t have a good chunk of itself wiped out back in 2009, because you’d be seeing much of the exact same thing back then too.

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7 hours ago, Miles Storzillo said:

(Yes, I know this is obscenely old, but I’m bored and we still know nothing about the next Sonic game)

I still find it quite funny how the tides have turned over the years.  Unleashed went from a panned game, just because of something that isn’t even that big of a problem, whose main praise was that it’s better than 06 to a fan favorite thanks to being the last game with interesting lore, great characters, a fun but at the same time serious story, beautiful aesthetics, and to some like yours truly (though I always thought this) the Werehog being very fun.

Colors on the other hand...  At 1st it was a fan favorite, but now it’s known as the game that ruined the future of the franchise (although I sincerely think this is the worst it got post Unleashed.  Generations’ story was boring, but that’s better than irritating in my eyes, Lost World was a HUUUGGGEEE improvement, and I found some merit in Forces).

Yes, people can change their opinions. Crazy I know. 

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