Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Sunwalker]

So I was browsing ancient sites about Archie Sonic, and I found an interesting excerpt written by Ken Penders. It is from an online editorial for the Archie website. This part has got my attention (source, my emphasis):

Quote

One of the other signs that indicates reader involvement with our stories is that so many readers come up with ideas for new characters that they think would make wonderful friends or foes for SONIC and KNUCKLES, and make a point to tell me about them, which brings me to one of the sadder aspects of what I must deal with.

It really hurts for me to tell readers that I can't give their ideas a hearing, because the suggestions are always made with the best of intentions. After all, it would be a dream come true if one of their characters shared an adventure with SONIC and company. However, much as we enjoy the world of SONIC, it's the real world we have to live in, and it involves things like copyright laws, lawsuits, and all other sorts of adult topics that tend to get in the way of just having a good time.

From: http://web.archive.org/web/19980109135030/http://archiecomics.com/sonic/editor.html

I find it to be particularly ironic, especially considering the events that would unfold years later...

 

 

 

[DaddlerTheDalek]

If 1990s Penders knew what 2010s Penders would do...

[antyep]

3 hours ago, DaddlerTheDalek said:

If 1990s Penders knew what 2010s Penders would do...

He'd do the shit he done today alot sooner if he knew....somehow.

[horridus]

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure at what precise point Penders convinced himself that his work was somehow super integral and renowned and all the other crap he now seems to be convinced that it is. Sometimes I wonder if a lot of this is due to the fact that when he walked away from his job, not only was he replaced, but his replacement enjoyed a kind of praise that he never got, and was able to make a throwaway idea of his super popular while steadily dismantling a lot of what had come before (due to it being clutter). You sometimes read past statements like that, as well as there having once been a time when he seemed able to recognize that his work's popularity was tied directly into the popularity of the franchise as a whole, and it leaves you wondering. 

Course, then you read other statements by him and it becomes eerily clear that he's always been obtuse, grasping and self-promoting, and you remind yourself that trying to view things in a more sympathetic light just doesn't work out. Like ever. 

[King Scoopa Koopa]

What was the throwaway idea?

[horridus]

3 hours ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

What was the throwaway idea?

Scourge, AKA Anti-Sonic. Under Penders'.... pen, he was a one note 'Evil Twin', a deeply forgettable cliche whose most notable character traits were "Sonic With A Bad Attitude And A Leather Jacket". There was zero originality, zero nuance, and very little worth remembering- he was just an 'Anti-Sonic' from an 'Anti-Mobius' who was bad because... because... Evil Twin. His most memorable storyline and act of villainy? Impersonating Sonic and being a manwhore. He was a Z-List character at best. 

Under Flynn though, Anti-Sonic got a major upgrade and retooling; suddenly, he was no longer just Sonic in a jacket, he was a fanged, green doppleganger to Sonic, and with a new name to match. Further, a greater deal of dimension was given to him and his character. Backstory, motivation, and even a bit of deconstruction was offered up by this new, improved model. Anti-Mobius became a far more distinct place, "Moebius", and the various other Antis, all of them just as lackluster as Anti-Sonic had been. became just as distinct. Scourge was a huge breakaway hit for a while, going from a nobody villain to one of Sonic's A-List enemies within the comic, making a huge impact upon the fandom as well. I'm not even super fond of Scourge, and I can see that and why it worked.  

What Flynn did for the character was not unlike what Batman: The Animated Series did for the character of Mr. Freeze; taking a villain who was better known as a goofy, lackluster throwaway baddie and giving him a dimension and pathos that almost overnight transformed everyone's perception of the character. 

Nobody these days asks about 'Anti-Sonic'... but a LOT of people were interested in Scourge. 

[Idon'tcare]

31 minutes ago, horridus said:

Nobody these days asks about 'Anti-Sonic'... but a LOT of people were interested in Scourge. 

Maybe that is what he hates about it, he created the base of the character, but it wasn't until someone else piled on the colors and personality that it actually took off. it  must have really hurt the guys ego that after putting time and effort into making a character that no one gave a damn about, that is, until someone else rewrote him completely.

Granted, I am in the camp that thinks that even with all of Ian Flynns hard work pimping him out, Scourge still wasn't that much of an interesting character to show off that much. And his constant presence along with Fiona kept hogging precious screen time away from characters far more deserving of a flesh out like Bunnie, Rotor, Tails or Amy in my opinion. So when I heard that Scourge was going to be a part of the great purge of character, I was happier than ever.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

10 hours ago, horridus said:

Scourge, AKA Anti-Sonic. Under Penders'.... pen, he was a one note 'Evil Twin', a deeply forgettable cliche whose most notable character traits were "Sonic With A Bad Attitude And A Leather Jacket". There was zero originality, zero nuance, and very little worth remembering- he was just an 'Anti-Sonic' from an 'Anti-Mobius' who was bad because... because... Evil Twin. His most memorable storyline and act of villainy? Impersonating Sonic and being a manwhore. He was a Z-List character at best. 

Under Flynn though, Anti-Sonic got a major upgrade and retooling; suddenly, he was no longer just Sonic in a jacket, he was a fanged, green doppleganger to Sonic, and with a new name to match. Further, a greater deal of dimension was given to him and his character. Backstory, motivation, and even a bit of deconstruction was offered up by this new, improved model. Anti-Mobius became a far more distinct place, "Moebius", and the various other Antis, all of them just as lackluster as Anti-Sonic had been. became just as distinct. Scourge was a huge breakaway hit for a while, going from a nobody villain to one of Sonic's A-List enemies within the comic, making a huge impact upon the fandom as well. I'm not even super fond of Scourge, and I can see that and why it worked.  

What Flynn did for the character was not unlike what Batman: The Animated Series did for the character of Mr. Freeze; taking a villain who was better known as a goofy, lackluster throwaway baddie and giving him a dimension and pathos that almost overnight transformed everyone's perception of the character. 

Nobody these days asks about 'Anti-Sonic'... but a LOT of people were interested in Scourge. 

Oh, okay. He went back to Anti-Sonic enough that I wasn't thinking of him as a "throwaway" idea. Though I guess under anyone else's pen, he probably would have been.

Hell, I bet the only reason Ian did anything with him was because he had kept turning up. If Anti-Sonic had just been one and done, I doubt there would have been much of a second thought given towards making anything like Scourge and the Suppression Squad. And this is Ian we're talking about.

[Tenko]

He's questioning towards Archie after a fan brought it up, saying he has no idea why the Knuckles Archives aren't complete yet. Making sure to mention his 'deal' with them which apparently means they can release it as they please and hes not stopping them. That even he would like to know why his back issue GN reprints have stopped.

I'm sure you do Penders, the loss of free incoming money must be bugging you right royal.

[Tylinos]

Yeah, the whole "It's all Archie's choice to use my characters or continue these reprints," bit is one of those things he does that just really bugs me.  Sure, it's not him being a major dick, or him talking about how amazing he claims everyone says his work is, but it's still just the right kind of annoying to get under my skin.  It's misdirection.  Sure, Archie technically can release the Archives, or use his characters, and technically it's their decision, but he almost always conveniently leaves out the fine print that says they'd have to pay him.

Doing that's the only thing I even have against him being paid for reprints of his stories.  It's one thing for him to say "Hey, I should get royalties for this," and another to throw blame completely at Archie for not choosing to reprint, and pretending money's not a factor.  It's a really cheap sympathy tactic, and I hate when people do it.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Also the whole "you gotta make my shitty future arcs canon even though they violate half the mandates and don't even halfway align with the cannon universe of this game series I've never bothered to play" part.

Actually, I'm not sure this guy's ever played a game in his life.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

Maybe Knuckles Archives just weren't selling? Imagine that.

But really, do we have them on any sales charts or numbers or anything? With better books like Boom and Mega Man and SSS magazine and whatever else landing on the chopping block, maybe Knuckles Archives weren't worth the continued investment to them, either?

[Myst]

..There's seriously 221 PAGES of discussion about this nutjob? ..I don't even.. I.. WHAT?

[horridus]

2 hours ago, KingScoopaKoopa said:

Maybe Knuckles Archives just weren't selling? Imagine that.

But really, do we have them on any sales charts or numbers or anything? With better books like Boom and Mega Man and SSS magazine and whatever else landing on the chopping block, maybe Knuckles Archives weren't worth the continued investment to them, either?

Wouldn't be surprised if ultimately that was indeed the case. With the old continuity tossed out the window and the generally contentious nature of that particular segment, newer fans have less and less reason to really look it up given that it no longer holds ANY relevance to the comic at hand. As for sales, I can't really find anything. 

[Sunwalker]

25 minutes ago, horridus said:

Wouldn't be surprised if ultimately that was indeed the case. With the old continuity tossed out the window and the generally contentious nature of that particular segment, newer fans have less and less reason to really look it up given that it no longer holds ANY relevance to the comic at hand. As for sales, I can't really find anything. 

About the sales, what I could find on Comichron was:

• Knuckles The Echidna Archives Vol. 1: 1,900
• Knuckles The Echidna Archives Vol. 2: 1,800
• Knuckles The Echidna Archives Vol. 3: 1,319
• Knuckles The Echidna Archives Vol. 4: 1,080

Remembering that the site only tracks direct sales, but I don't think that other kind of sales were that big. There are no way to know the number of digital sales, but the number of ratings on Comixology should be a reasonable indicative of the order of magnitude. The most popular comics usually have hundreds of ratings, and some even go above a thousand. The Knuckles Archives books only have, each one, from 2 to 4 ratings.

[horridus]

8 minutes ago, Sunwalker said:

About the sales, what I could find on Comichron was:

• Knuckles The Echidna Archives Vol. 1: 1,900
• Knuckles The Echidna Archives Vol. 2: 1,800
• Knuckles The Echidna Archives Vol. 3: 1,319
• Knuckles The Echidna Archives Vol. 4: 1,080

Remembering that the site only tracks direct sales, but I don't think that other kind of sales were that big. There are no way to know the number of digital sales, but the number of ratings on Comixology should be a reasonable indicative of the order of magnitude. The most popular comics usually have hundreds of ratings, and some even go above a thousand. The Knuckles Archives books only have, each one, from 2 to 4 ratings.

Ooof. That's a pretty brutal dip. Comichron doesn't cover all the other stuff, but if that's an indicator of any wider trends within the sales? Then it really could just be it just wasn't selling enough to justify publishing it anymore. 

[Sunwalker]

1 minute ago, horridus said:

Ooof. That's a pretty brutal dip. Comichron doesn't cover all the other stuff, but if that's an indicator of any wider trends within the sales? Then it really could just be it just wasn't selling enough to justify publishing it anymore. 

The numbers from volumes 1 and 2, I got from the yearly reports instead of the monthly ones (which are somewhat bigger than the figures of the launch month). I would do the same for volumes 3 and 4, but they not even appeared in their respectively yearly reports, so I guess that their sales didn't increase much in the following months..

[Tenko]

He's arguing with me on Twitter again, this time he is trying to tell me in his oh so cryptic way that "my (refering to me) new Sonic comic universe is more tied to previous continuity than I acknowledge".

His cryptic way being telling people they are wrong but not elaborating why.

Keeping in mind here, that the point I originally made to him was that the new universe had no connection to the old universe story wise anymore. Not in the real world or his vaunted behind the scenes shenannigans or how he seems to think his plans for future issues were used by Ian or whatever...black and white on the page in the printed book story wise.

Asked him to elaborate, keeping that in mind so it will be interesting to see what he has to say. Also informed him it wasn't "my" new universe, it was Archie's lol.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

3 minutes ago, Tenko said:

He's arguing with me on Twitter again, this time he is trying to tell me in his oh so cryptic way that "my (refering to me) new Sonic comic universe is more tied to previous continuity than I acknowledge".

His cryptic way being telling people they are wrong but not elaborating why.

Keeping in mind here, that the point I originally made to him was that the new universe had no connection to the old universe story wise anymore. Not in the real world or his vaunted behind the scenes shenannigans or how he seems to think his plans for future issues were used by Ian or whatever...black and white on the page in the printed book story wise.

Asked him to elaborate, keeping that in mind so it will be interesting to see what he has to say. Also informed him it wasn't "my" new universe, it was Archie's lol.

Oh wow, so much to work off of here. Let's see...

Quote

His cryptic way being telling people they are wrong but not elaborating why.

Because he doesn't know why.

Quote

Asked him to elaborate, keeping that in mind so it will be interesting to see what he has to say.

Probably not much, since he probably hasn't read any of it. Best he probably has to go off of would be the number on the cover.

"Well, 252 comes after 251, so therefore it's connected to the old universe!"

He's not wrong, though. I mean, the new universe only exists because of the old one, and I don't mean in a "Lord and Savior Penders allowed the book to run this long" way, but because Worlds Collide had the Sonic from the old universe create the new universe.

Ugh, and now I just imagine him taking credit for the new universe because of that the same way he takes credit for Scourge and Shard. Now I think I need a swig of Koopa-Kola to wash the bad taste of that out of my mouth.

[Tenko]

Yeah I had already mentioned the numbering in a previous tweet so I don't think he would be game to try that one. The old creating the new while true is a pretty loose connection at best. Story wise the crew have forgotten the old universe, even 99% of the crossover and Super Genesis Wave is no longer in their memory. Yes these things happened but it's forgotten and gone now, it was a nod to the old fans, one that apparently wasn't even meant to happen at all, but sticking with story only as the base argument, a new person doesn't need to know these things, and can get by without having to know anything pre #252. Story wise it's all gone and doesn't have any relevance to the comic post soft reset. So it will be interesting to see what it is that gives it relevance and a reason as to why Archie needs to finish the reprints according to him.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

14 hours ago, Tenko said:

Yeah I had already mentioned the numbering in a previous tweet so I don't think he would be game to try that one. The old creating the new while true is a pretty loose connection at best. Story wise the crew have forgotten the old universe, even 99% of the crossover and Super Genesis Wave is no longer in their memory. Yes these things happened but it's forgotten and gone now, it was a nod to the old fans, one that apparently wasn't even meant to happen at all, but sticking with story only as the base argument, a new person doesn't need to know these things, and can get by without having to know anything pre #252. Story wise it's all gone and doesn't have any relevance to the comic post soft reset. So it will be interesting to see what it is that gives it relevance and a reason as to why Archie needs to finish the reprints according to him.

I agree with everything you said here, but don't you think Penders would grasp at anything that even looks like a straw to back up his argument? He'd probably even say something like "because it's still published by Archie" or even "it's still Sonic" to back up his point if he thought it would help.

[Idon'tcare]

On ‎26‎-‎01‎-‎2016 at 11:46 AM, Tenko said:

So it will be interesting to see what it is that gives it relevance and a reason as to why Archie needs to finish the reprints according to him.

Let's see, "cause the Knuckles in the new comicverse is the same Knuckles as the one in the old comicverse," would seem to be the answer Ken Pender's is aiming at and at that he would be right. The reset just rewrote history and erased Knuckle's memories, still, that's no really a good enough reason for Archie to finish the reprints. 

My guess is that a certain someone needs a fresh supply of cash to fund his little business venture.

[goku262002]

On 1/26/2016 at 8:23 PM, Myst said:

..There's seriously 221 PAGES of discussion about this nutjob? ..I don't even.. I.. WHAT?

What can we say, hes an entertaining nutjob. that and were waiting on the eventual crash and burn of his so called comic series.

[Tylinos]

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/692848535125889024

"They more than likely did were paid. The creators didn't. Why do you hate creators so?"

Wow.  That's, uh, one of the most blatant loaded questions I've seen in a while.  While I don't exactly agree with Chris' argument against Ken there, that's definitely not the way to respond to it.

[horridus]

If Penders was able to handle his critics with any kind of grace, this thread wouldn't exist, let alone be as long lasting as it has been. That's a pretty damn big escalation right there, and not a surprising one though. One of his favorite tactics, after all; conflating a dislike or criticism of him personally as being about everyone else, rather than him and him alone. 

Also, we have a fellow trying to explain that pre-252 is no longer canon... Penders has taken the opportunity to remind us that, yet again, "Everything Is Canon" with regards to LSC. 

 

 

Truly, Penders' generosity is boundless.