Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[Tylinos]

1 minute ago, chaosjam said:

I'm sorry you can't let any of your characters grow, develop and evolve beyond their 2 dimensional personalities  because you see it as other writers being "wasteful" of your creations.

Does ANY creator think like this?

Ironically enough, one could actually argue that about Sega's restrictions on Sonic and co. back in the Archie books.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

19 hours ago, Tylinos said:

Yeah, whether intended or not, that came off as a weird way of trying to clamor for attention, since there was really no reason to just say "oh yeah by the way i came up with a totally original character today".

Gotta get ahead of the pack so everyone knows not to steal it.

And I think someone is jealous of a certain #1 selling out with nothing to do with him whatsoever.

[horridus]

2 hours ago, chaosjam said:

 

...what is the purpose of this tweet?  Ken complaining that because of his strict regulations on storytelling, no one except him is willing to use the characters? I'm sorry you can't let any of your characters grow, develop and evolve beyond their 2 dimensional personalities  because you see it as other writers being "wasteful" of your creations.

Does ANY creator think like this?

 

Oh boo-hoo Ken, the big mean ol companies didn't prioritize your characters over the characters the book was meant to promote, how DARE they not see the BRILLIANCE of Ephebeophile Skunk James Bond and whiny-ass fanbrat who complains her way to a guardianship and The Baby Microwavin' Badass Locke! Gee, maybe if you hadn't spent a year wasting *everyone's* time with Lara-Su they might've been more open to you continuing it... you had your shot there and you blew it. 

Seriously, this entitled bitching is hilarious. Its not even the first time he's said something like it- before his forum went kaput, he actually whined about the fact that Flynn didn't pay enough attention to HIS characters, actually demanding to know why there wasn't a Julie-Su or a Brotherhood arc. He really does not seem to get that this book was never, ever about HIS characters, and any use they got was done so at the generosity of whoever came after... which is doubly hilarious given that he whined about how they were used anyway. It's just another symptom of how deeply entrenched his belief that the book was his personal playground really is, as is his supreme disinterest in actually writing for Sonic. 

Its particularly amusing, given that in the years since the trial ended.... there are still no further stories of Lara-Su or any of the people he made. 

2 hours ago, Tylinos said:

Ironically enough, one could actually argue that about Sega's restrictions on Sonic and co. back in the Archie books.

Indeed, but there is one very critical difference- SEGA owns the characters and the franchise, and everything that appears in those books does so at their leisure. It is within their right to dictate how their product is depicted, even if their restrictions are asinine in the extreme. Penders was never playing in his own playground, and once upon a time he understood that fact. His attitude here is essentially taking his former employers to the task for not prioritizing HIS work ahead of everyone else's and refusing to accept anyone else working with his materials. It's a STAGGERINGLY self-centered attitude for the man to take. 

[Dr. Detective]

11 hours ago, SBR2 said:

Oh, this is laughable.

Yes clearly the problem is that it's not Sonicy enough and not that it's so over detailed it makes it look like something from my deepest nightmares. He sincerely thinks this looks good.

Considering the fact that the reason he gave for Lien-Da looking the way she did was because she was a villain, you'd think the flow of logic from that point would also be to provide a psychological reason for that being the case with Geoffery. I mean, if you're going to bring up the SEGA-Like characters thing at least try and make it seem as though it's working off a similar logic from the thing you brought up before.

Like say, "If you want SEGA-Like characters, you'll have to look elsewhere. I'm modeling mine after something that represents Satan. Call these EA-Like characters if you will."

You know, a little consistency is all I ask for. 

[Tenko]

5 hours ago, chaosjam said:

 

...what is the purpose of this tweet?  Ken complaining that because of his strict regulations on storytelling, no one except him is willing to use the characters? I'm sorry you can't let any of your characters grow, develop and evolve beyond their 2 dimensional personalities  because you see it as other writers being "wasteful" of your creations.

Does ANY creator think like this?

 

Ironically the general consensus was that Geoffrey etc were MORE interesting after he had left. That the arcs they did appear in gave them more growth and personality than the YEARS of use they had had before which were under his pen or watchful gaze.

Geoffrey being linked to Nagus etc being especially interesting even to those that previously hadn't liked the character.

Saying Archie weren't going to tell their stories or use them is flat out bull. As they both did, and did so well, long after his exit. Sega was never interested in his characters beyond that they should have been theirs under botched contract, they weren't ever going to use them in merchandise or a game etc, and IDW if they had wanted them, or him, would have invited him to join the creative team, so i'm unsure why Sega and IDW were even mentioned. I assume its more meant to read "was ever going to tell the stories MY way".

[horridus]

1 hour ago, Tenko said:

Ironically the general consensus was that Geoffrey etc were MORE interesting after he had left. That the arcs they did appear in gave them more growth and personality than the YEARS of use they had had before which were under his pen or watchful gaze.

Geoffrey being linked to Nagus etc being especially interesting even to those that previously hadn't liked the character.

Saying Archie weren't going to tell their stories or use them is flat out bull. As they both did, and did so well, long after his exit. Sega was never interested in his characters beyond that they should have been theirs under botched contract, they weren't ever going to use them in merchandise or a game etc, and IDW if they had wanted them, or him, would have invited him to join the creative team, so i'm unsure why Sega and IDW were even mentioned. I assume its more meant to read "was ever going to tell the stories MY way".

Yeah like, and to double the irony? Penders didn't really DO much of anything with Geoffrey before he left. He didn't do much of anything with a LOT of his characters. Elias and Geoffrey alike were further developed by Bollers before Flynn came on board, for instance. 

In the end though your assessment is correct- Penders' is pretty much a control freak when it comes to his own little corner of things within the comic, and he did NOT like things going against his wishes. I mean cripes, he started a feud with Bollers over the fact the guy said M25YL wasn't 'the' future, just one of many. 

[DabigRG]

20 minutes ago, horridus said:

Yeah like, and to double the irony? Penders didn't really DO much of anything with Geoffrey before he left. He didn't do much of anything with a LOT of his characters. Elias and Geoffrey alike were further developed by Bollers before Flynn came on board, for instance. 

In the end though your assessment is correct- Penders' is pretty much a control freak when it comes to his own little corner of things within the comic, and he did NOT like things going against his wishes. I mean cripes, he started a feud with Bollers over the fact the guy said M25YL wasn't 'the' future, just one of many. 

To be fair, Elias was apparently an intentional case.

[Tenko]

Here's a new date to add to your missed release date checklist guys and gals :

 

[SenEDDtor Missile]

He could mean Comic Con 2222.

[horridus]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

To be fair, Elias was apparently an intentional case.

Coming from a man who has made multiple contradictory claims behind his rationale for trying to kill off Sally, ludicrously claimed that the reason the Brotherhood did nothing about Robotnik because of a nebulous 'greater threat', and who has managed to forget plot points for characters he made to begin with, I'd take that with a grain of salt- this man's relationship with the truth is very tenuous at the best of times.

Even if that were the case, it doesn't exactly change the fact that Penders has created swathes of characters he later ignored or refused to properly develop. He introduced Bernie and Jules, and then promptly did nothing of consequence with either of them. He concocted Kodos and even left him lingering in the Void, only to promply never write for beyond the backstory bits in Tales of the Great War. Tobor and Kragok he killed off because he couldn't be bothered to do anything with them, utilizing the lame excuse that 'not all stories have satisfactoty endings in real life' to justify his laziness. 

In short? Penders whining about the nobody wanting to continue the stories of his characters is laughable, given that he himself was patently allergic to developing anything of his, or anyone else in the book for that matter. To say nothing of him wasting his time with crap nobody had wanted to begin with- looking at YOU, 'Chaos Knuckles'. 

9 minutes ago, Tenko said:

Here's a new date to add to your missed release date checklist guys and gals :

 

*sigh* Maybe he'll actually do it this year, but given all the other times... I'm not exactly confident. Especially when the only thing he posts are minor ass pics and going 'SEE SEE I'M DOING STUFF FOR REALSIES'. 

[SBR2]

14 hours ago, Tenko said:

Ironically the general consensus was that Geoffrey etc were MORE interesting after he had left. That the arcs they did appear in gave them more growth and personality than the YEARS of use they had had before which were under his pen or watchful gaze.

Geoffrey being linked to Nagus etc being especially interesting even to those that previously hadn't liked the character.

Saying Archie weren't going to tell their stories or use them is flat out bull. As they both did, and did so well, long after his exit. Sega was never interested in his characters beyond that they should have been theirs under botched contract, they weren't ever going to use them in merchandise or a game etc, and IDW if they had wanted them, or him, would have invited him to join the creative team, so i'm unsure why Sega and IDW were even mentioned. I assume its more meant to read "was ever going to tell the stories MY way".

I confronted him about this. This was his response.

I mean so long as you ignore the little detailed of those characters were literally only dropped directly before the reboot and after the lawsuit was finished then yeah I guess Ian did drop them completely.

[Big Panda]

“Ian didn’t have a handle on Locke and Knuckles’ relationship”

Maybe because he actually wanted to do a better-written relationship instead of the piss-poor, borderline abusive one you had a “handle” on.

[horridus]

25 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

I confronted him about this. This was his response.

I mean so long as you ignore the little detailed of those characters were literally only dropped directly before the reboot and after the lawsuit was finished then yeah I guess Ian did drop them completely.

Adding to that, he seems to be selectively forgetting that a rather large swathe of his characters were properly killed off in the Egg Grape Chambers during Return to Angel Island, by Karl Bollers. None of his characters were dropped- hell, Lien-Da received way more attention and focus under Flynn than she ever did under Penders himself. The only thing that resulted in any of his characters being exiled forever was the fallout from his own lawsuit. Being out of focus and being dropped completely are two entirely different things, and the fact that he views the former as the same as the latter incredibly telling. 

As for his comment on Flynn's handling of Knuckles and Locke's relationship, I say this again- the only reason those two had as cozy a relationship as they did during Ken's run was because Ken cheerfully ignored the various ways in which Locke's actions would have badly, badly damaged his trust. Telling him that he's the last of his kind and raising him in isolation, letting him believe his mother was dead, genetically modifying him as an infant, neglecting to mention the Dark Legion being out for his blood... I mean for crying out loud, the only reason Knuckles found him was because Locke couldn't get away fast enough. Penders can scream otherwise until his dying days, but these are not the actions of a good parent, and no amount of authorial fiat can make it so. Flynn didn't 'misunderstand' the relationship, he simply allowed reality to finally take hold. 

[Big Panda]

I *think* he’s referring to the Egg Grape thing here. But said echidnas were unimportant. The echidnas that actually mattered were dropped because of the reboot.

[horridus]

4 minutes ago, Ernest-Panda said:

I *think* he’s referring to the Egg Grape thing here. But said echidnas were unimportant. The echidnas that actually mattered were dropped because of the reboot.

Again- the Echidna that died off were all put into the Egg Grapes by Bollers to begin with, all of them unimportant cruft characters who barely did anything. And two- Lien-Da got way more focus and development under Flynn than she ever did under Penders. And if he's talking about the Albionites, well guess what buddy boy? You promptly forgot all about them after the Chaos Knuckles arc, so don't go crying about them when they weren't important enough for you to remember in the YEARS after that storyline.  The refusal to accept cause and effect here is simply staggering. 

[SBR2]

1 hour ago, horridus said:

Adding to that, he seems to be selectively forgetting that a rather large swathe of his characters were properly killed off in the Egg Grape Chambers during Return to Angel Island, by Karl Bollers. None of his characters were dropped- hell, Lien-Da received way more attention and focus under Flynn than she ever did under Penders himself. The only thing that resulted in any of his characters being exiled forever was the fallout from his own lawsuit. Being out of focus and being dropped completely are two entirely different things, and the fact that he views the former as the same as the latter incredibly telling. 

As for his comment on Flynn's handling of Knuckles and Locke's relationship, I say this again- the only reason those two had as cozy a relationship as they did during Ken's run was because Ken cheerfully ignored the various ways in which Locke's actions would have badly, badly damaged his trust. Telling him that he's the last of his kind and raising him in isolation, letting him believe his mother was dead, genetically modifying him as an infant, neglecting to mention the Dark Legion being out for his blood... I mean for crying out loud, the only reason Knuckles found him was because Locke couldn't get away fast enough. Penders can scream otherwise until his dying days, but these are not the actions of a good parent, and no amount of authorial fiat can make it so. Flynn didn't 'misunderstand' the relationship, he simply allowed reality to finally take hold. 

Well as he said to me. He doesn't see Locke's actions as abusive. He grew up in a time where people hit their children with belts. That make's Locke's actions ok. Because he doesn't see how they can be construed as Abusive.

[horridus]

12 minutes ago, SBR2 said:

Well as he said to me. He doesn't see Locke's actions as abusive. He grew up in a time where people hit their children with belts. That make's Locke's actions ok. Because he doesn't see how they can be construed as Abusive.

And thus we reach Penders Razor- is he deliberately ignoring things for the sake of his argument, or is he truly THAT blinkered and out of touch that he can't wrap his head around the fact that manipulating, lying to and abandoning your kids in the wilderness without support is deeply messed up? The world may never know. 

Having said that, its probably the latter... he doesn't seem to comprehend why Lien-Da and Julie-Su being friendly with one another in M25YL made absolutely no sense either, after all. I mean what's a few multiple memory wipes and murdered parents between half-siblings, eh?

As I said, Penders can scream about it all he likes, but no normal human being is going to look upon Locke and see a good parent or person forced into a terrible circumstance. That is all on Penders, and nothing will change it. 

[Tenko]

5 hours ago, Ernest-Panda said:

I *think* he’s referring to the Egg Grape thing here. But said echidnas were unimportant. The echidnas that actually mattered were dropped because of the reboot.

As Horridus has said it seems he is mistaking things Bollers put in motion for Ian. Realistically you couldn't have everyone come out of that situation unscathed. So even if it was Ian that closed off the Egg Grape sub-plot (I'm not sure where it ended and if it was one of Ians stories or Bollers that finished it up) he took a sensible stance in causing casualties without affecting any of the arguably more well known or important characters.

[horridus]

46 minutes ago, Tenko said:

As Horridus has said it seems he is mistaking things Bollers put in motion for Ian. Realistically you couldn't have everyone come out of that situation unscathed. So even if it was Ian that closed off the Egg Grape sub-plot (I'm not sure where it ended and if it was one of Ians stories or Bollers that finished it up) he took a sensible stance in causing casualties without affecting any of the arguably more well known or important characters.

For real. He even had Remington, arguably an ACTUAL major character, spared from all that by way of Finitevus and ended things with him being the new leader and protector of the Echidna remannt in Albion. His complaint is deeply nonsensical, given that the only 'casualties' were filler characters that Penders never bothered to properly develop or utilize after their introduction. 

[Tylinos]

7 hours ago, Tenko said:

As Horridus has said it seems he is mistaking things Bollers put in motion for Ian. Realistically you couldn't have everyone come out of that situation unscathed. So even if it was Ian that closed off the Egg Grape sub-plot (I'm not sure where it ended and if it was one of Ians stories or Bollers that finished it up) he took a sensible stance in causing casualties without affecting any of the arguably more well known or important characters.

Yeah.  It was a Bollers story (Return to Angel Island) that showed that a ton of the Echidnas were stuffed in the Egg Grapes and had most of their life force drained.  All Ian did was re-confirm what Bollers already showed us.

[Tenko]

You would think he would remember the Egg Grapes etc being Bollers since he has previously shown disdain at the Return to Angel Island story arc, didn't it cause friction between himself and Bollers even?

He's basically retorted the people that have brought up his characters usage before the reboot in response to that tweet with the "that's not <insert character here>, and not how I would have written it, and I know them as they are my creations" thing. As we all guessed he would. So it looks like he did mean "it wasn't my way" rather than "they didn't use them" that he meant. 

[Sidronas]

14 hours ago, horridus said:

Adding to that, he seems to be selectively forgetting that a rather large swathe of his characters were properly killed off in the Egg Grape Chambers during Return to Angel Island, by Karl Bollers. None of his characters were dropped- hell, Lien-Da received way more attention and focus under Flynn than she ever did under Penders himself. The only thing that resulted in any of his characters being exiled forever was the fallout from his own lawsuit. Being out of focus and being dropped completely are two entirely different things, and the fact that he views the former as the same as the latter incredibly telling. 

As for his comment on Flynn's handling of Knuckles and Locke's relationship, I say this again- the only reason those two had as cozy a relationship as they did during Ken's run was because Ken cheerfully ignored the various ways in which Locke's actions would have badly, badly damaged his trust. Telling him that he's the last of his kind and raising him in isolation, letting him believe his mother was dead, genetically modifying him as an infant, neglecting to mention the Dark Legion being out for his blood... I mean for crying out loud, the only reason Knuckles found him was because Locke couldn't get away fast enough. Penders can scream otherwise until his dying days, but these are not the actions of a good parent, and no amount of authorial fiat can make it so. Flynn didn't 'misunderstand' the relationship, he simply allowed reality to finally take hold. 

so the characters being killed in the Egg Grape chambers wasn't even done by Ian Flynn, so i wouldn't say that it was accurate of Ken to say that. 

[QuantumEdge]

I'd like to point out the echidnas put on the chopping block were, if I'm right, made up of no characters of any particular importance.  I can't even think of someone with a name who got killed in the Egg Grapes.  Really he's getting bitter over cast members that were just there to have something in the background.  My only guess is because it disrupted his utopia world he'd made, where no threat could ever make any real trouble and therefore no interesting stories occurred.  Thank god Ian didn't have Ken as a co-writer like Karl did.  Otherwise he'd probably have stories made to pretty much spite him.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

2 hours ago, QuantumEdge said:

Thank god Ian didn't have Ken as a co-writer like Karl did.  Otherwise he'd probably have stories made to pretty much spite him.

Isn't that basically what The Lara-Su Chronicles is?

[SBR2]

6 hours ago, QuantumEdge said:

I'd like to point out the echidnas put on the chopping block were, if I'm right, made up of no characters of any particular importance.  I can't even think of someone with a name who got killed in the Egg Grapes. 

The only Echidna with a name to get Egg Graped was Remington and he was saved off panel by Dr. Finitevus. So no absolutely no major Echidna's were killed. But the Population was reduced which apparently was just as bad.